Tyson.5160

Is it just me or did that Icebrood Construct have some purple parts in it?

> @"Hypnowulf.7403" said: > I'm going to make anothe run at why I think that Jormag isn't the villain they're perceived to be. In a way, it's an attempt to help others understand what it means to be in a situation of abuse. It can really define how you see the world—it turns you into a survivor, and you'll do whatever is necessary to survive. > > The experience of Jormag's existence—as I had mentioned prior—is defined by Primordus's abuse. They awake first, they prepare for Primordus to chase and hunt them, they're not as powerful as their abuser is so they have to be more clever than them. This constant cycle of abuse colours how Jormag sees the world—they understand that people can be fearful, distrustful, and their best effort is made by making an effort to cooperate. They want to preserve because they understand the pain of abuse, they'd not want others to know it, and that's why ice protects. Primordus can't burn Jormag's Frozen. > > It's true that Jormag has made mistakes with their generosity but the idea has always been to encourage cooperation, to persuade, to try to either bring the vulnerable under their wing or do away with them. At some point in the past, the Spirits broke their vow to Jormag and now they appear to be hellbeng on replacing the dragon fo ice and persuasion. This can be seen in how they've manipulated norn culture—which I've brought up prior here too, at least I think I did here. They've turned the norn into a race of suicidal kamikaze extremists who believe that if they don't try to throw their life away in the attempt to claim a legend in the frozen North, they aren't and never will be a true norn. I'm not given to trust the Spirits for that reason, oh—and because they eat kids. I don't like that either. > > Jormag's had to up their game with both the Spirits and Primordus after them—they've had to work harder to protect both themself and their kids from abuse, or worse, death. They see Aurene as an ally, the Crystal Bulwark, the eternal dragon that can never be brought low. Jormag is fixated upon both protection and preservation, Aurene has a unique means to offer both whilst also aiding in taking the fight to Primordus and freeing Jormag once and for all. > > There are hints all over the story. The way that Jormag talks of Primordus as "being bound to a monster" is the way that those who've lived with abuse tend to see their only option for freedom. The death of your abuser can become almost inextricably linked with your freedom. I think that the perception the asura have of Jormag and Primordus being opposites is a little more literal than most might might expect. Jormag desires cooperation and wishes to protect against abuse wherever they can. This is why ice protects, it's the perspective of a traumatised person who's lived with abuse for far too long. Primordus is vindictive, he wishes to destroy but he wants to cause pain in the process. > > Something Ryland said at Lake Doric stuck with me. "Primordus can't burn Jormag's Frozen." That's the way Jormag would see it, too. I remember in early lore Jormag said they'd freeze the world to halt the rampage of Primordus if they had to. Aurene has given them a second option, but if that falls through then their only plan is to freeze the world to stop Primordus from burning it. > > After Jormag woke, they spent time in the Mists without consuming, corrupting, or destroying. They've never once hinted that their goal is domination, control, or anything of the sort. In fact, they've been very clear that their goal is to be free from abuse. I found it interesting early on that Jormag spoke of cycles and I kept wondering whether that was a hint toward cycles of abuse—now I'm convinced that it is. The cycle they wish to break is the cycle of abuse. Primordus abuses Jormag and the world alike for what seems to be mostly his own entertainment—even Marjory noticed how vindictive he is. > > Another aspect of abuse is that you can often see it as a hopeless position where you have to stand against abuse yourself, like the world is against you as no one will listen to you. Any psychologist will tell you that this is true, one of the most difficult things for an abused person to do is talk about their abuse as they're convinced that no one's really going to believe them. That no one is listening to Jormag is... poignantly on point for this kind of experience. It can make you feel as though everyone is out to get you, so you really do have to act yourself to stay alive and keep those you care about alive. > > There's a story here of a toxic family relationship. That Primordus is defined as Jormag's twin is equally as important, I feel. They're intertwined with one another and it's not unlike a marital situation with an abusive husband and an abused, overprotective wife who'll do whatever she needs to to protect her kids. I've been seeing this in the story for quite some time. > > What really punches me in the gut though is that—perhaps to no one's surprise—in cases of abuse the abused is often seen as a liar, a manipulator, a sociopath, because no one's paying attention to what the abuser is doing and thus if they haven't seen evidence of it the abuser must be innocent. It's too on point and, for me, it hits too close to home. It's only when the abuser shows their hand that anyone would begin to ask uncomfortable questions. I still recall that the tagline of the Icebrood Saga is having to learn an uncomfortable truth about them. I think that truth is that they aren't as unfamiliar, alien, strange, and inherently evil as most wanted to believe they are. > > Ice protects because Jormag has only ever known abuse—it's what Jormag wants to do and what Jormag wants. It's what they want from Aurene. I mean, quoth the dragon, "it's what we all want." There are so many hints all over the place, all just waiting to be pieced together about what's going on here. > > The thing is is that I think Primordus isn't inherently evil, either—I think he has anger management issues and he's being driven by the Torment. A lot of abusers do have anger management issues, and when their rage boils, it boils over and they can't stop themselves. I think that the Torment is fuelling his anger and that's what turned him into an abuser. What I get from this story is that it's a bizarre, abstract representation of marital abuse. > > Ice protects because that's what any mother would want to do or have done for them if they're stuck in a cycle of abuse with no hope of being freed from it. Jormag is asking Aurene to protect them, to free them, to finally give them respite from all of this abuse so that they can know what life is like wihtout it. As an abused person, Jormag is a survivor, they've endured so much pain and trauma. It's left them feeling very jaded, cynical, and if they feel that the world still hasn't realised how dangerous their abuser is? If no one is listening, that can leave them feeling hurt and scared, which is outwardly realised in very cynical, very sarcastic ways. I have some personal experiences with this and some from a body of knowledge in psychology. > > One thing that really stuck with me is the way Jormag asked Aurene if she's intimidated by them. The tone of that was exceptionally well handled. "Really, you fear me? The abused? After everything you've seen? Oh of course. It's always the same." > > There are many in the community who see Jormag as a sociopath, a manipulator, and so on without actually trying to see what's happening from Jormag's perspective. The lack of empathy is surprising to me... I mean, do consider that Jormag even called the invading forces in Bjora Marches monsters for trying to attack and kill a baby—Drakkar—who'd done nothing wrong. In the way that Drakkar acts, it absolutely is a young pup. Lots of pup body language. > > Even the Claw of Jormag was showing fear in his body language. You don't cower behind a pillar unless you're scared. The reason he was there is because he wanted to protect his parent just as Jormag wanted to protect him. He wanted to spare them from being put through more pain, he was willing to die for that. That's telling in and of itself. > > To top off everything though? I think I've mentioned this but it behooves me to bring it up again—often abused victims are seen as being manipulative, sociopathic, and so on. Western culture has a habit of blaming the victim. I'm not surprised to see Jormag blamed in the same way. > > I'd ask that anyone who's curious about my take look into the experiences of those who've had to live in abusive households. Everything about the story of Primordus and Jormag relates to that. Tyria is their house, there's no escape for Jormag, Primordus will just chase them to abuse them and there's not a whole lot they can do about it other than ask for help and beg that someone will listen. > > "Maybe you should listen." > > There's just so much about it that's obvious to me and it makes me feel really bad for Jormag. To quote the Kodan: “ Their voice was not their own.”

> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > No, just no. > > The first effects of Jormag's power can be seen in GW Eye of the North. Svanir falls for Jormag's whisper at lake Drakkar and starts hunting and killing Norn. This is not something he wanted to do, it's something Jormag made him want to do. The same effect can be seen with every creature turned icebrood. People who fought Jormag's invading forces to protect their families come back as ice brood to kill those they tried to protect. "Jormag only gives the people what they want" is a big fat lie. > > You know that feeling when you're standing on a bridge or a high building and something tells you to jump? It's known as the "call of the void" and can be a part of any healthy person. Does this mean you want to jump? No. My theory is that Jormag is able to amplify this "call of the void" to the point where it overwrites all self preservation. I've followed the Norn in Jora's Keep out into the cold. She walks on her own, yes, but her mind is clearly not her own. In the end she freezes to death no matter how much healing you provide and no matter how often you try to talk to her. That's a kill, not a suicide. > > Now, granted we are at war with Jormag at this point, killing enemy soldiers is justified. However Jormag never once admitted we're at war. Because if he did we would be faced with the question of who started the war, who shed the first blood? And that would be Jormag by a mile. > > You've criticized that Primordus isn't shown as the evil he is, but that's wrong. An entire race has practically sacrificed itself, turned into living stone, with the single purpose of stopping Primordus's forces. The only reason we haven't focused on Primordus yet is because we didn't have to. The dwarves held the line rather successfull for a long time. Should we have helped the dwarves and done something about Primordus earlier? Yes, we should. That doesn't mean we're seeing Primordus as "innocent", it just means the fight is too far hidden from us to be an immediate threat. > > The part about Drakkar and Claw of Jormag being innocent pups... If you want to call an ancient creature that has lived for centuries a pup, go ahead. On the innocent part I can only agree if their wills were manipulated like Jormag has done with most of his other minions. Then there’s the Claw of Jormag’s that savagely hunted the Kodan and their Sanctuaries, yep sound like innocent beings to me. It’s like we are suddenly forgetting that Jormag’s secondary sphere is PERSUASION.

> @"Bast.7253" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Bast.7253" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > I’ll take a look some of those old story missions because it seems the frozen ice models appear different then the ones that appear before more of navy blue then light blue. > > > > > > > > This feedback loop is also making the destroyers more rabid. So if the feedback loop isn’t a new ability, possibly demonstrating the destruction/ conflagration, the rabid part may be new. Taimi did say that this ability has been amplified by Kralkatorrik’s magic, so clearly Primordus has obtained something from Kralkatorrik. > > > > > > > > Taimi makes a bunch of comments as well as Jhavi and Marjory. > > > > > > > > Taimi: Almost had it! > > > > : So did we. > > > > Braham Eirsson: The arena. It's headed over there. > > > > Taimi: How do you—that doesn't even make any sense: the portal's over here. > > > > Taimi: Destroyers definitely do not have reason... New algorithm's almost locked on. Hold just a sec > > > > > > > > Jhavi Jorasdottir: I assumed it was to draw us away from the gates of Lion's Arch. But that doesn't make any sense. > > > > Jhavi Jorasdottir: They tried hitting those first, to draw us away from the settlement. Jory was the only one who saw it. > > > > Jhavi Jorasdottir: Maybe Primordus just thrives on chaos. A settlement of defenseless villagers would be a prime target. > > > > > > > > Marjory Delaqua: You don't have to be a killer Krytan sleuth to see this settlement is a more attractive target than Lion's Arch. > > > > Marjory Delaqua: Primordus causes destruction. It's his MO. No better way to do that than set fire to the most vulnerable. > > > > > > > > Taimi: That link we discovered between the destroyers and Primordus? A feedback loop, amplified by Kralk's death. > > > > Gorrik: Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential. > > > > > > > > Maybe Primordus obtained a bit of the fury magic from Kralkatorrik, which is causing the rabid side of the destroyers. > > > > > > I think the destroyers burn more is just Primordus' domain of "conflagaration." But the "more rabid" could definitely be Fury. Perhaps they were more "organized" in a sense and stuck closer to Primordus in designated areas, and because of it the dwarves were able to hold them back. But the Fury aspect from Kralk is causing them to go ape-****. > > > > > > Though, to be honest, I've never really liked these domains. It's difficult understanding the difference between "Fury" and "Conflagaration" or why those would even be domains in the first place. Like, who decided.. hey.. I'm going to give you Plant and Mind, and you Crystal and Fury. > > > > > > Thinking about them as a major and minor: > > > Plant, Fire, Ice, Water, Death, Crystal. > > > Mind, Conflagration, Persuasion, ??, Shadow, Fury. > > > > > > It's just difficult trying to make any connection between them in terms of the general "balance" and sustaining of life.. as elder dragons are more or less a natural part of the eco-system. > > > > > > I think that's one thing that's always frustrated me about the Elder Dragons. Not knowing their origin, the reason they have these specific domains, and fearing we may never get any kind of resolution or further dive into it. But maybe that's just reading too much into it and the Elder Dragons just are. And the domains are just devices they've created to allow them to survive/thrive, like unique evolutionary traits they've developed. Just weird when you think about them being absorbed or used by the other dragons, unless they more or less absorb their essence and consciousness. Then I suppose it's less about absorbing some intangible magical ability and more just obtaining their knowledge of how to use those devices. > > > > > > If that makes any sense. > > > > > > > > Yeah, I considered that as well, what’s interesting too is how if you read the story journal it gives a slightly more different play on the same words that Taimi used. I’m sure the destruction aspect could be a cause of the loop and like you said the rabid part could be a small aspect of Fury. > > > > Anyhow the journal says this: > > > > “ The "feedback loop" of magic between the Elder Dragon and its destroyers is creating a vicious cycle, all started with Kralkatorrik's death and the subsequent absorption of its magic. In Gorrik's words, "Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential."” > > > > This seems to me that this loop is a new thing according to the journal. Why advise that’s it from Kralkatorrik’s death in the first place. You could easily cut that information away and Taimi could advise hey we discovered a new ability that Primordus had, that we never knew existed. This doesn’t seem to be the case. Whatever this feedback loop is, it seems to derive from Kralkatorrik and his magic, much like how they advised that Kralkatorrik gained advanced hive mind abilities from Mordremoth, without really saying that Kralkatorrik gained Mordremoth’s mind sphere. > > > > Possibly. But I think the interpretation of that is pretty open. It could be implying a new ability gained by Kralk, or it could just simply be the release of magic (no matter how much Aurene seems to have absorbed) that caused them to stir. Especially given the lines last year about Drakkar absorbing magic from Kralk's death. Yeah, I suppose. It’s very possible that this is a form of Crystal and Fury Domain in regards to the feedback loop too, the common resonance from the Crystal domain that allowed for the branded to be weak to each other and Kralkatorrik, as well as the Fury domain making them rabid and semi unorganized, but we’ll have to see more evidence from future releases hopefully. Like you were saying before look at how each dragon have been using each other’s power, it all seems slightly different. Mordremoth was able to create minions from the dead due to the absorption from Zhaitan death magic as well as use some Shadow domain for himself in its final battle as well as with the Shadow of the Dragon. Primordus infused death and plant magic into his destroyers from both deceased dragons. While we have this new feed back loop from Kralkatorrik apparently. Jormag appeared to be experimenting with death and plant icebrood, and uses death magic to speak through corpses, as well has gain the ability from Balthazar to Mist travel. Kralkatorrik was able to create branded from the dead as well and resurrect dead branded minions, as well as use an advanced hive mind from Mordremoth’s mind sphere. He was also able to use Mist Travel as well from Balthazar. We’ll see if Jormag or Primordus has further tricks up their sleeves as well as what the DSD has acquired in terms of magic domains.

> @"Bast.7253" said: > Given that all the champions in the DRM's have oddly specific names, do you think this is supposed to mean something or have any significance? > > Or do you think it's more or less just a "Champions" themed series and they wanted to give them names for flavor? > > Have we had any comments on whether or not these names are supposed to have any meaning? > > Primordus: > Destroyer of the Ironhammer Line > Destroyer of the Crystal Fields > Destroyer of the Great Bridge > Destroyer of the Third Fortress > Destroyer of the Last Forge > > Jormag: > Bors of the Ice Gavel > Ryland Steelcatcher. (lul) > > Primordus seems to have a common theme and represent actual historical events or previous dragonrises. > > But Jormag kind of tosses all of that out the window. > > Thinking it must just be flavor text to give them a name other than "Champion Destroyer XXX" or "Champion Svanir Shaman." > > It's neat thinking about the possibilities of what "Great Bridge," "Third Fortress," and "Crystal Fields" could be in reference to though. When I read the names, I thought they were destroyers used in past conflicts with the dwarves, or possible places we’ll see if we ever go underground to fight Primordus, given he survives IBS.

> @"Bast.7253" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > I’ll take a look some of those old story missions because it seems the frozen ice models appear different then the ones that appear before more of navy blue then light blue. > > > > This feedback loop is also making the destroyers more rabid. So if the feedback loop isn’t a new ability, possibly demonstrating the destruction/ conflagration, the rabid part may be new. Taimi did say that this ability has been amplified by Kralkatorrik’s magic, so clearly Primordus has obtained something from Kralkatorrik. > > > > Taimi makes a bunch of comments as well as Jhavi and Marjory. > > > > Taimi: Almost had it! > > : So did we. > > Braham Eirsson: The arena. It's headed over there. > > Taimi: How do you—that doesn't even make any sense: the portal's over here. > > Taimi: Destroyers definitely do not have reason... New algorithm's almost locked on. Hold just a sec > > > > Jhavi Jorasdottir: I assumed it was to draw us away from the gates of Lion's Arch. But that doesn't make any sense. > > Jhavi Jorasdottir: They tried hitting those first, to draw us away from the settlement. Jory was the only one who saw it. > > Jhavi Jorasdottir: Maybe Primordus just thrives on chaos. A settlement of defenseless villagers would be a prime target. > > > > Marjory Delaqua: You don't have to be a killer Krytan sleuth to see this settlement is a more attractive target than Lion's Arch. > > Marjory Delaqua: Primordus causes destruction. It's his MO. No better way to do that than set fire to the most vulnerable. > > > > Taimi: That link we discovered between the destroyers and Primordus? A feedback loop, amplified by Kralk's death. > > Gorrik: Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential. > > > > Maybe Primordus obtained a bit of the fury magic from Kralkatorrik, which is causing the rabid side of the destroyers. > > I think the destroyers burn more is just Primordus' domain of "conflagaration." But the "more rabid" could definitely be Fury. Perhaps they were more "organized" in a sense and stuck closer to Primordus in designated areas, and because of it the dwarves were able to hold them back. But the Fury aspect from Kralk is causing them to go ape-****. > > Though, to be honest, I've never really liked these domains. It's difficult understanding the difference between "Fury" and "Conflagaration" or why those would even be domains in the first place. Like, who decided.. hey.. I'm going to give you Plant and Mind, and you Crystal and Fury. > > Thinking about them as a major and minor: > Plant, Fire, Ice, Water, Death, Crystal. > Mind, Conflagration, Persuasion, ??, Shadow, Fury. > > It's just difficult trying to make any connection between them in terms of the general "balance" and sustaining of life.. as elder dragons are more or less a natural part of the eco-system. > > I think that's one thing that's always frustrated me about the Elder Dragons. Not knowing their origin, the reason they have these specific domains, and fearing we may never get any kind of resolution or further dive into it. But maybe that's just reading too much into it and the Elder Dragons just are. And the domains are just devices they've created to allow them to survive/thrive, like unique evolutionary traits they've developed. Just weird when you think about them being absorbed or used by the other dragons, unless they more or less absorb their essence and consciousness. Then I suppose it's less about absorbing some intangible magical ability and more just obtaining their knowledge of how to use those devices. > > If that makes any sense. > > Yeah, I considered that as well, what’s interesting too is how if you read the story journal it gives a slightly more different play on the same words that Taimi used. I’m sure the destruction aspect could be a cause of the loop and like you said the rabid part could be a small aspect of Fury. Anyhow the journal says this: “ The "feedback loop" of magic between the Elder Dragon and its destroyers is creating a vicious cycle, all started with Kralkatorrik's death and the subsequent absorption of its magic. In Gorrik's words, "Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential."” This seems to me that this loop is a new thing according to the journal. Why advise that’s it from Kralkatorrik’s death in the first place. You could easily cut that information away and Taimi could advise hey we discovered a new ability that Primordus had, that we never knew existed. This doesn’t seem to be the case. Whatever this feedback loop is, it seems to derive from Kralkatorrik and his magic, much like how they advised that Kralkatorrik gained advanced hive mind abilities from Mordremoth, without really saying that Kralkatorrik gained Mordremoth’s mind sphere.

> @"Stephen.6312" said: > > @"The Greyhawk.9107" said: > > Because I've been given no reason to think that the Spirits of the Wild are evil, they've done nothing or said nothing to make me think this is the case. > > To each their own, I guess. I do wonder, though, if part of the problem is viewing all of these things through a moral lens. Most likely it would make the narrative too complicated, especially if we are heading off to a new continent for whatever reason the story gives us. Right now given all the evidence shown and presented via novels as well as in game, Jormag = bad and Spirits = good.

> @"Oxstar.7643" said: > Isn't the tone of the story kinda shifting too much? > 1. Zhaitan must die. > 2. Also Mordremoth > 3. No actually, this is bad, they are vital to the balance of the world > 4. But let's kill one of the worlds gods. > 5. Okay, now a new ED that is our friend replaced Kralky > 6. Also we are going to kill another ED > > I mean... isn't Jormag also a part of the life force of the world? Is killing him really such a good idea? I don't think Aurene can balance out the loss of ANOTHER elder dragon. > As for the spirits replacing Jormag, this sort of life force surgical proceedure sounds very... out of nowhere? I theorized a while back when talking about dragon replacements that the Spirits of the Wild could be a possible replacement. When they started talking about the Spirits of the Wild being infinite wells of power back in Episode 2 in Jan 2020, I figured they might go that route, the latest DRM just confirmed it for me personally.

> @"Ashantara.8731" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > The last DRM said this from Owl: > > > > “Owl Spirit: The Wild together can direct the fall. You are the harness, Norn of Prophecy. Tell them.” > > > > And > > > > “What did Owl mean, "the Wild together can direct the fall"? > > Braham Eirsson: I don't know. Why can I sense destroyers? What does Owl's message mean? How do we fight two Elder Dragons at once?” > > I, too, believe they might return to their _former_ glory, but even back then they existed _next_ to the Elder Dragons rather than on the same level. I see them more at the center of this, along with the Pale Tree and other forces of nature, than at any of the orbiting positions: > >  > > > I suspect the Fall is the release of magic from Jormag, that will channel into Braham and be released into the spirits or something of that nature. > > It is possible. But: > > > which leaves several methods of obtaining and balancing magic. > > If it wasn't for that Omadd's Machine movie sequence, I would 100% agree. However, ANet established that strict "scientific" explanation (much like the nonsense about Midichlorians in Star Wars), which took all the magic out of Magic on Tyria. (I really hate such concepts, they ruin all the wonder and awe.) Yet Sadizi does say entities and not strictly Elder Dragons which would fit nicely for the Spirits of the Wild, especially if they are balancing the magic with one another. They may also need Braham in terms of harnessing the power too, which may take him out of the story for a while.

> @"Ashantara.8731" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > Jormag will die and the Spirits will take its place. > > Is that even possible? (That would be a fantastic twist of events, I'd love to see that.) Seems to be the case given the hints we have been supplied through the story. We are told that the Spirits are infinite wells of power. “Braham Eirsson: The lost Spirits of the Wild! I thought Jormag killed them. We all did. Cloudseeker: Not killed. Taken. Now Drakkar feeds on them—an infinite well of power.” The last DRM said this from Owl: “Owl Spirit: The Wild together can direct the fall. You are the harness, Norn of Prophecy. Tell them.” And “What did Owl mean, "the Wild together can direct the fall"? Braham Eirsson: I don't know. Why can I sense destroyers? What does Owl's message mean? How do we fight two Elder Dragons at once?” I suspect the Fall is the release of magic from Jormag, that will channel into Braham and be released into the spirits or something of that nature. Also Elder Dragon replacements don’t necessarily need to be dragons. Look at what Sadizi says in Path of Fire: Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void. Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin. Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle. Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it. Notice that Sadizi says entities rather then dragons, which leaves several methods of obtaining and balancing magic.

> @"The Greyhawk.9107" said: > > @"Hypnowulf.7403" > > Citation needed on this repeated but never substantiated claim of "the Spirits of the Wild eat children". And you're going to have to do better than Vilnia Shadowsong as nothing in her event shows that she is literally feeding those kids to Raven. But even in the off chance this were the case with Vilnia, thats still only _Raven_ , its doesn't prove that **All** of the Spirits do. They aren't a monolith. You have provided no proof that the Spirits are any more evil than your precious Jormag. > > And you are **still** attacking so-called neurological people, making these prejudiced and spurious statements as if they were fact. We'd likely take what you say more seriously if you didn't compulsively take your anger out on people that aren't like you. If I recall the event is called defeat the “evil” Raven Shaman. So whether Raven actually speaks and provides her power, remains to be seen. Much like any other evil person doing evil acts in the name of God or some other deity.

> @"Hypnowulf.7403" said: > @"Oxstar.7643" > > This is what frustrates me about the current storyline. The average, normative mind has it that dark triad people are their friends and HSPs are deadly enemies and it's very tiresome. I mean, you can see that in how billionaires are defended—it's the differently abled, immigrants, and foreigners who're the real villains. The way people look at the world is topsy-turvy and wrong. > > I mean, with Jormag, they're clear as day a traumatised, jaded HSP to me. All they've done is tried to defend their babies—such as Drakkar—and save lives. I mean, what they did with the charr war ended it quickly, decisively, and with the least amount of lost life. The collaring of Bangar was clever. If Jormag was a villain, there were far more harmful and destructive things they could've done whilst still maintaining a veneer of innocence. It's what they choose to do and how they go about it that tells me their truth. > > As an HSP myself? I've tried to help "normal" people. The problem is is that "normal" people don't believe that kindness motivated by empathy can exist. It's a manipulation, a means of control, or I'm trying to reduce them and take their place, I'm attacking them either directly or abstractly by attempting to replace them in regards to their social standing. This is the kind of world they live in, and it's... sickening. > > I mean, Jormag's only known norns who've been brainwashed by evil Spirits—who _eat children_—to throw away their lives in an effort to kill them. The Spirits want to eat Jormag, to take their place, so what do they do? "Oh hi norns, we're your Gods now. We say what it means to be a complete norn. So amuse us, almost die for us by attacking Jormag and their lot. If you do, maaaybe we'll bestow upon you your form and then you can be a true norn." We see this happening to Braham with Wolf in the Icebrood Saga itself. > > So on one side, Jormag is being hunted by the Spirits. On the other, Jormag is being hunted by a very abusive dragon with anger management issues—that'd be Primordus—and all they can really do is run and hide. Aurene noticed this when Jormag first woke up, that they're just running around in the Mists, they aren't eating, destroying, corrupting, or anything. They're just running scared. > > Even with Lake Doric, if Primordus had taken it it would've resulted in stampedes. So many would've died. Jormag saved lives. It doesn't matter, because an elder dragon can't be selfless. I mean, this thread even deals with distrust for Aurene. Why? Aurene is very "foreign," she's not very dark triad-y, so she's distrusted. We live in Topsy Turvia. > > I've been dealing with this my whole life as an HSP. I've made my mistakes—just as Jormag and Aurene have—but what I want is always to help. It doesn't matter because my kind of person can't exist. There always has to be some scheme, some plot, some vile machination. Meanwhile, dark triad persons—who're brilliant chameleons—continue to groom people into being ever more easily manipulated by them. > > It's very tiring. So, yes, Joramg's a traumatised, jaded HSP—but because HSPs can't exist and Jormag's a dragon? They're an evil, sociopathic manipulator, despite acting more like a neurodiverse person than any dark triad person I've ever known. I've known a few, and I've researched many more. Wait a second, please tell me we are not forgetting all the death and destruction that Jormag caused, even though Jormag claimed it was just defending itself... There isn’t any evidence in game or throughout the novels that Jormag is a misunderstood good guy. HSP and dark triad be damned, this is an ancient evil Ice dragon of persuasion, bent on killing off the only thing that can threaten its power and that’s its destructive brother, Primordus. Jormag will die and the Spirits will take its place.

> @"Randulf.7614" said: > > @"Hypnowulf.7403" said: > > Live and learn, thanks Randulf. My Zeph lore is spotty at best. > > It's all good. One of the things they did in PoF which isn't always recognised is the profession lore they added via NPCs in the maps. I found some of them quite interesting I would be neat if they just added a npcs to HoT for elite specs, that did the same thing. Nothing crazy just something with texts to explore the background of the classes.

> @"Teratus.2859" said: > The mark of a great liar is one that manipulates and lies using the truth.. that is what Jormag does, it doesn't outright lie to you.. it's very sly, perverts the truth and lies by omission and tactics like that so that it can always say things like. > (Purely fan based dialogue not from the game) > "I never lied to you, I told you the truth.. I just didn't tell you everything because I can't trust you.. not yet, because you're working against me, but I don't blame you.. I understand your fear and your doubt's but you must trust me, I am not your enemy and you will need my help." > > Lies with the truth.. justifies it's actions.. deflects the blame and calls your actions to question.. sympathises to your situation.. reassures.. and seduces. > Jormag is a master at this kind of thing and it's what Jormag has been doing more or less for the entire IBS, trying to get us on it's side by making us think it's on our side. > > Also Jormag isn't small exactly, so far we've only seen it's head so there's not a large model to go by as of yet but I am still expecting Jormag to be about the length of Kralkatorriks Head and Tail maybe a bit of the neck too in total. > That would make Jormag much bigger than Zhaitan's body but not as big as it's wingspan and much thicker than Mordremoth's body but not quite as long. > If you want an example and comparison compared to other ED models I made this a while ago to show around about's what I expect Jormag's size to be using a mishmash of kralk parts as a stand in as I expect that better fits to the Lindwurm body type I am expecting Jormag to have. >  > > Also to note as well, Primordus will very very likely be shrunk down when he gets a full body model in Gw2, I do not expect his head from season 3 will define his full body model, it's just too big.. however I do believe he will be the biggest of the Dragons. That Shaman pulled the model and made a comparison of all the dragons. You can see Jormag’s size between Zhaitan and Mordremoth. https://mobile.twitter.com/that_shaman/status/1333405006213615619/photo/1

> @"Blocki.4931" said: > Honestly they are okay. They are not long enough to be annoying IMO and optimizing the pre-event is kinda fun. Just annoying when you have to wait for NPCs, especially if they decide to attack this one random destroyer that was not even near them. I’m going to wait to see how the DRMs play out in their entirety as well as a full mastery and judge the whole DRM as a whole.

I’m hoping for Primordus to live through IBS, as although we have seen new destroyers, we haven’t seen new destroyer models. In terms of Jormag, we have seen lots of its minions, killed a large amount of unique champions, that I could easily see Jormag being killed at the end of the saga. That being said, I would hope they would save Primordus for last since he was the first and presumably has consumed the most amount of magic. We have also been dealing with its minions and champions since the personal story as well as in season 3 and IBS, so if Primordus survived until EoD or afterwards, it would make Primordus the primary villain throughout the game, popping in and out of the story, so we don’t forget that he’s there.

> @"Nilkemia.8507" said: > Well, Kralkatorrik's already dead, and while she became an Elder Dragon right there to prevent the imbalance from going too far, we'd need another to do the same for when Jormag dies. (Assuming they don't pull a "psyche, the imbalance thing was just a total screw up on Taimi's part.) > > Don’t worry that’s where the Spirits of the Wild come in.

> @"Luthan.5236" said: > I just started with season 4 recently. In Kourna atm finishing all the permanent achievements. So far the population never really seemed low - in all of those first 3 maps. Even if not on dailies. But lower than season 3. (I guess season 3 has more people because of the farming for the ascended trinkets there.) > > Always people doing the meta on Istan, Sandswept Isles and Kourna. But I think the bounties are a bit less important there. (Only the 1 legendary for the visions achievement I think.) Still everything seems doable. > > Meta really is boring though. The golem is too strong. (Too much hp.) Boring and lengthy fight. The hearts feel like they take a bit longer to complete. (Grindier + you also need a lot more of the map resources than in the previous map. If you want do to the unique stuff for achievements ... like that banner of the commander.) > > They should have made some sub boss that fights for Joko. One of the marshals. Not the inquest. At the meta. > The whole plague thing feels like they cut it really short. Gorrik appearing. Talking something about 2nd and 3rd generation. (I did not really understand why the 3rd one should be more dangerous?) > > Then we just are immune cause we already died in the past once. And we kill all the scarab swarms with mounts. And shut down some lab quickly. There really should have been 1 step in between. Huger defensive events in the other maps or separate map in between Sandswept Isle and Kourna. I believe the awakened incursion events take place around the episode 1-3 of Season 4 for Joko invading the rest of Tyria via Inquest technology. This may have provided a better impression of Joko invading, unless you did those too.

> @"TeeracK.3601" said: > > @"Randulf.7614" said: > > > @"TeeracK.3601" said: > > > > @"Randulf.7614" said: > > > > The thing is, Krytan Centaurs suddenly joining Humans and other races after years of xenophobia and no lead in would be even more jarring. People are already criticising the recent releases for rushing through dialogue and plot points too quickly as some kind of tick box exercise. If Centaurs suddnely became an allied faction, then that would really give fuel to that. > > > > > > > > When I saw them in the trailer, I had expected them to be more of a flavour in a map out that way. Something to give a map a bit of extra layering instead of fully focussed on just the icebrood. But, that never came to pass. > > > > > > Well that's not exactly correct. A lot of centaur are warmongers but others are more peaceful. The different centaur tribes have very different philosophy and some of the tribes do value peace. We met a friend tribe back in drytop. I wouldn't think centaur changing their attitudes would be any different from the flame legion suddenly being the most noble char legion in IBS. > > > > That’s why I specifically mentioned Krytan Centaurs who have yet to show any tolerance or tendencies to peace unlike their Maguuma cousins > > > > As for the Dry Top ones, they are wiped out and it’s unclear what tribes even exist elsewhere given their species was seriously under threat from all sources and devastated by war > > > > An alliance could work, but not without set up and there are no known peaceful tribes yet introduced > > Again let me just point out the did a complete 180 on the flame legion making them the more peaceful and noble legions when they were the most evil one up to IBS. They had no set up for it we went to Grotmar after no flame legion lore since 2013 and they were just like "yep a ton of flame legion charr are actually great guys." To my understanding, it’s a splinter faction of the flame legion that had joined the United Legions. I imagine there are still some unaccounted for flame legion with the old ideals.

> @"Linken.6345" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > Kourna has an unfinished meta event. The Moon Fortress (Gandara) was so underwhelming too, invisible walls everywhere, boring enemies (nothing new), indeed one of the worst maps of Season 3 (the worst?) > > > > > > Jahai itself is not a bad map. The incursions are unique, the blending of different areas with the mists is also unique, the map itself is varied. We also got a new world boss in Death Branded Shatterer although it's weird that unlike other meta events, the pre-events for Shatterer aren't needed to progress. Weird but good imo, looking at the mess of Drakar where they combined pre and boss in one timer. The only underwhelming (or perhaps a better word is overhyped) part of Jahai is the Sunspear Sanctuary. At least we got Eye of the North, which is what Sunspear Sanctuary should've been like. Which parts of the map do you find unfinished???? > > > > > > Combining them isn't really an option as they exist on different episodes and they'd need a massive rework. The way living world maps work is that they separate, so certain ideas and mechanics can work. For example, if they are combined, why would we see brandstorms and rifts only in the Jahai part and not Kourna? > > > > Wasn’t it Season 4 or am I missing something? > > Yes this thread is talking about two season 4 episodes new/old players still play those mate. Sorry someone mentioned season 3 regarding Kourna.

> @"maddoctor.2738" said: > Kourna has an unfinished meta event. The Moon Fortress (Gandara) was so underwhelming too, invisible walls everywhere, boring enemies (nothing new), indeed one of the worst maps of Season 3 (the worst?) > > Jahai itself is not a bad map. The incursions are unique, the blending of different areas with the mists is also unique, the map itself is varied. We also got a new world boss in Death Branded Shatterer although it's weird that unlike other meta events, the pre-events for Shatterer aren't needed to progress. Weird but good imo, looking at the mess of Drakar where they combined pre and boss in one timer. The only underwhelming (or perhaps a better word is overhyped) part of Jahai is the Sunspear Sanctuary. At least we got Eye of the North, which is what Sunspear Sanctuary should've been like. Which parts of the map do you find unfinished???? > > Combining them isn't really an option as they exist on different episodes and they'd need a massive rework. The way living world maps work is that they separate, so certain ideas and mechanics can work. For example, if they are combined, why would we see brandstorms and rifts only in the Jahai part and not Kourna? Wasn’t it Season 4 or am I missing something?

> @"Abraxxus.8971" said: > I'm ok with the DRMs except the boss in Thunderhead Keep. Everytime I've fought him, it just took way too much time. IMO, his HP needs to be toned down a bit. I’m wondering if they are keeping some changes to a minimal, since the masteries may make some of these bosses easier in the long run.

The DRMs remind me of classic dungeons from other games including a token system. Not super crazy with mechanics either. I definitely don’t mind them and I’m curious how they play with the last 3 and further updates from allies etc. From the mastery track.

> @"Fueki.4753" said: > > @"Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615" said: > > The mirror that he had was enchanted by Lyssa herself > Just because she enchanted it herself doesn't mean she gave it to him. > He could just have stolen it from one of her followers, or one the temples dedicated to her. > Given that he was there, he could also have taken it from Lyssa's reliquary in Siren's Landing. > > > And he cursed every one of the gods except for Lyssa > This could just be an oversight of the developers. Such happenings are not rare. > It could also simply mean that Lyssa was against stripping Balthazar of his divinity and power, but she was outvoted by the other ones. > There is not a sliver of an indication towards a potential future ~~plot twist~~ retcon. This was confirmed intentional during the PoF AMA regarding Balthazar not cursing Lyssa. Devs advised that the gods story wasn’t over.

Went back and looked at the story journal for the episode, which phrases the feed back loop a bit differently. “At this point, the fire dragon hasn't woken up. The "feedback loop" of magic between the Elder Dragon and its destroyers is creating a vicious cycle, all started with Kralkatorrik's death and the subsequent absorption of its magic. In Gorrik's words, "Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential."” Primordus getting Magic from Kralkatorrik seems to be very important detail since they mentioned it in the dialogue and the journal.