Refia Montes.3205

yes it works multiplicatively, and i have no idea as to why the guy above is explaining negative modifiers.

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> >

> >

> > here's a better rotation to follow and it's not even perfect.

>

> It's hard to find videos or even people who talk DPS numbers with regard to open world. I was wondering how your chrono setup here does in a solo scenario against a boss. I mean, at that level of DPS you could take down HoT HP champs in under a minute. But is it feasible to survive them while sustaining that type of damage or is the rotation too sensitive to allow solid survival without sacrificing a ton of damage?

>

As with any build it's always possible to survive in any solo encounter as long as the attacks are avoidable. Something like continous damage ticks would kill you on any build or very high pressure like the Mushroom queen HP are nigh impossible to solo. Otherwise I've soloed all of the HoT hps with this build and other pure damage builds before with enough practice.

To add, Chrono has a lot of active damage mitigation in the form of Distortion from F4, Phantasmal Defender as CC (to stun champions really fast), Blurred Frenzy on an 8 second cooldown, Illusionary Riposte and can go range with GS when needed. Might also swap Power Spike for Blink if you're having problems without stunbreaks for a small damage loss.

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > The problem is deeper than just chrono. Making a 10-man game mode when support skills are limited to 5 players creates the problem of mirror comp. It reached a point where 6 classes were supporting 4 dps.

> > > >

> > > > Even if we ignore the amount of different boons Chaos chrono provides, chrono in general provides too much role compression. For just 1 raid spot, it tanks, heals, and provides CC, boon removal, reflect, quickness and alacrity. There's no other class with both those boons in their kit, and that's the core of the problem. FB and Rene were created to work together, and that's why the alt comp couldn't compete, since chrono and druid don't have the same problem; they complement each other, but can still function independently, especially chrono.

> > > >

> > > So then shouldn't the logical next step be to make Chrono/Druid need each other more the way FB/Rev "need each other"? Ideally while also giving each pairing a niche they are better at.

> > >

> > > Only nerf I think Chrono needs is to delete might, resistance, stability and aegis from SoI. Also delete might on phantasm summon and Chaos traited F1. Dom/Inspiration can still share aegis but it's not high duration. Stability is on mantra of concentration but won't have high up time. Resistance from Chaos is short duration and mutually exclusive with aegis share. Druids can apply aoe 25 might and Chrono cannot help with it. This pair will have low aegis, stability and resistance but other boons are covered. Strong CC from both Chrono and Druid.

> > >

> > > Fix FB mantra boon sharing to go to their sub group first. FB/Rev combo has high healing, aegis, resistance, and stability up time compared to Druid/Chrono but weaker CC.

> > >

> > > Now certain DPS classes/fights favor different combos. DPS variants of Ele or Guard with arcane or virtues trait lines want the support with lots of boons (1-2% dmg bonus per boon) and aegis (20% bonus damage) so ideally FB/Rev BUT have to deal with low CC from their support.

> >

> > SoI provides 1 stack of might, it's not really the issue. Resistance is also pretty short duration and can't be provided on demand. But I don't really like the idea of removing specific boons from SoI, it makes little sense and is a bit too heavy-handed for my tastes.

> >

> > Druid is still very much responsible for providing the bulk of might needed as it is right now, but that doesn't make chrono and druid reliant on each other. FB/Rev work together because there's nobody else who can provide quickness or alacrity, besides chrono who can provide both. Might can be provided by a number of other builds, it's just that druid does it for 10 people while also providing spirit buffs to those 10 people. But in fractals druid is not even meta anymore, chrono and banner warrior can cover all the boon support needed in just 2 spots, while the extra dps spot makes up for the loss of spirits.

> >

> > And FB/Rev are not even that bad at cc, revenant staff 5 is as good as an instant Gravity Well on a fraction of the cooldown, and FB has axe 3 and Bane Signet for 450 break bar damage, and can sacrifice some dps for Hammer of Wisdom for another 200.

> >

> > The problem will always be about role compression. The alt comp requires 2 of each FB and Rev to replace 2 chronos, so it's not only double the amount of spots, but also double the amount of builds. Druid is just an added thing, not connected to chrono, like banner warrior. The alt comp can't substitute for druid anyway, since there's no replacement for spirits, so you would probably have to bring a soulbeast with spirits, adding 1 more niche build requirement to the mix.

>

> Druid actually isn't required for might anymore though.

> 1) SoI is only 1 stack with a 40 second duration (20 sec base) which is double casted (utility and trait) potentially every 20 seconds with alacrity. That's 4-6 stacks of might when you factor in the F5 rotation.

> Illusionary inspiration also applies 2 stacks of might 20 seconds (10 base) when you summon a phantasm and chronophantasma procs this twice.

> 2) Summoning phantasmal warden on CD applies 4-8 stacks of might.

> 3) Shield 4 is 8-16 stacks of might with this.

> 4) BD is 5 stacks of might 16 second (8 base) on a 8 second CD with alacrity. So that's 10 stacks of might if spammed on CD.

> If you ignore F5 and assume the minimum stacks from each of those 4 sources of might, that's still 22 stacks of might from Chrono. F3 + SoI is permanent fury.

>

> **So chrono can solo cap quickness, alacrity, 25 might and perma fury AKA all the offensive boons.** And then SoI can add a ton of the defensive ones in there as well. That kind of role compression is too much compression which is why I consider the might stacking on Chrono too OP.

>

> I'm ok with Druid not being required but 2 support + 3 DPS per group seems like a decent place to be at. Chrono + might stacker (which can be druid, DE, BS, scourge etc) fits that fine. FB+Rev would replace both the Chrono/Might stacker because they can also cap 25 might with that combo. In that sense Chrono/Druid should be paired support except chaos/inspiration Chrono can stack 22-25 might.

>

> Assassin's presence is 10% more crit damage (~4.4% dmg increase 100% uptime) compared to frost spirits 5% damage bonus. If I'm on power SB, I'm not bringing spotter, glyph of empowerment or sun spirit. I don't see people clamoring for AP. Ranger buffs aren't required if it's not Druid.

um no, Illusionary Inspiration has an ICD.

here's a better rotation to follow and it's not even perfect.

Ew GCE's build.

Let me tell you; while Imagined Burden is a strong trait, there are a lot of better options to use. Simply focusing on Phantasmal Berserkers will give you some burst but doing a different rotation will give you more sustained dps and burst.

I recommend going Illu 1-2-2, Dueling 1-3-1, Chronophantasma 2-3-3, which gives tons of boons, damage and utility.

this is my solo build which also shares my gear with fractal/raid power dps, which means it doesn't have any concentration to extend boons on it. See for yourself, i was able to keep up 25 might and a tons of other boons while doing tons of damage, and the rotation isn't even perfect.

And no old Imagined Burden was just straight up garbage.

Do you guys not use Phantasmal Swordsman and Chronophantasma+Phantasmal Force? :thonking:

> Use Imagined Burden+Phantasmal Force+Chronophantasma

> Use Phantasmal Berserker+Phantasmal Swordsman

> ???

> Profit

Honestly while I think Staff is in a fine spot, I think there changes could potentially make it a more interesting weapon. Either way I'm fine with it.

> @"Crackmonster.2790" said:

> 28-34k, oh that small missing 6k dps. Let's forget about that - clearly chronoplasma not op it only adds gigantic amounts of dmg by itself far out of the other's reach even if they can give 30% crit.

You're also forgetting that I mentioned that a Power Chrono with Lost Time along with Danger Time traited can do similar dps compared to a Chronophantasma Power Chrono.

> They could start by making that 30% crit available to phantoms as well, then we'd start talking some semblance of choice or balance among the picks.

Alse, Danger Time isn't on the same tier as Chronophantasma. They could be used together.

> Problem also has been ignored by thread is this: Since chronoplasma op broken, they had to nerf it in pvp(burst potential) --> specc imbalance. And it is clunky as hell mechanically - the only thing is has is numbers tied to kitten mechanics. But people pick classes for numbers in most cases.

They were OP because Phantasms had higher than normal Weapon Strength. And even higher than Ascended weapons. (2.5-3k avg weapon strength) compared to lvl 78 exotics PvP has (only 900-1k avg) of course they're gonna hit harder than the competition.

> So we are stuck with this clunky stuff coz the number defenders are out there crusading against making the class play well from fear of losing the numbers. This is why you shouldn't always listen to players.

Chronophantasma isn't clunky at all. If there's any clunkiness it comes from phantasms themselves as they're ai spawns that get blocked by terrain.

Sure we care about the numbers, but it's interaction with Illusion summoning traits, utilities (SoE, becomes 1050 healing with CP) makes it one of the most interesting and synergistic trait available to Chrono. Chrono is all about multiplying your spells, and that along with Continuum Split and Chronophantasma makes it thematically sound.

> Yea yea, there are also fair arguments in thread the fairest of them all is this: I love the clunky playstyle to me it is fun. Great, excellent. Good for you - i am not trying to take your choice away however, just don't make it the de facto overpowered forced clunky playstyle to stay competitive in pve. I couldn't care less if the choice is there for you if you love this playstyle, i have zero interest in taking it away from you.

>

Eh sure, maybe you'd prefer the pre reworked mesmer. maybe you would prefer anything else. I don't care too. I don't like things to be taken away without any sense though, maybe I'm just biased, but currently Chronophantasma is the least of Chrono's problem. The real problem is that it brings unparalleled support and utility, through wells, boons, aegis sharing, reflects, cc, portal skips etc. A party needs something and a Mesmer can just swap utilities to cover for the party's weaknesses.

Thanks! Though with the Phantasms changed they could just use the new Phantasms along with this Elite Spec.

The problem with base Condi Mesmer is it's just too weak to do meaningful damage. In the past it was possible because Phantasms were permanent and would allow you to stack three Duelists for consistent bleeds. Now that it is changed it is almost impossible to make a core condi build for mesmer due to Sceptre being a really bad condi weapon and pistol off hand, while does a lot of damage has a cd way too long. Sceptre clones without Mirage ambush mechanic are just too weak in comparison to Mirage Axe.

So even in condi encounters, Core Power Mesmer would be better than Core Condi Mesmer.

Not exactly true, while Phantasms do make up a large part of a Power Chrono's damage, you can actually build a Danger Time+Lost Time build with similar dps and better sustained dps at the cost of burst damage from Phantasms.

Even base mesmer a build that doesn't have Chronophantasma can actually perform pretty okay by itself, you can benchmark it on 28k, which isn't that bad.

In short you're overstating a problem that doesn't exist, as Phantasms can handle themselves well even without Chronophantasma, imo none of them needs any buffing and if they do, i'm pretty sure it wouldn't suddenly make Chrono op, unless they make a retarded buff.

Chrono's strength comes from its ability to buff allies and provide fuckton of utility which overshadows other classes. Phantasms are the least of the profession's problems in terms of balance.

And in the future if we do get a new off hand for the new elite spec it couldn't be used alongside Chronomancer anyways.

btw chrono in pvp is shit now, but lets nerf chronophantasma even more cause why not?

btw chrono's power dps is good but isnt top tier, why not lets nerf it more?

oh hey, the only thing chronophantasma does so well is applying tons of self quickness and might ehich are only relevant in solo encounters and open world and no condi cleanse isnt relevant in pve, and its excessive in pvp anyways.

> @"PierPiero.9142" said:

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > @"Artaz.3819" said:

> > > Hint, Superiority Complex is THAT good. Critical damage from trait is multiplicative to damage unlike nearly everything that is additive to damage in the game. Unless you have near 0 critical chance, this is likely your #1 damage boost as a Mesmer and _almost_ beats every other damage trait on any class (if target under 50% health or target is CC'd, it is the best).

> >

> > What are you talking about?

> >

> > Firstly, nearly every single damage modifier in this game is multiplicative. In the past, even something like compounding power was multiplicative for each 3% per active illusion. Only some inherently-stacking boosts are additive, and even then they're only additive internally. All damage modifiers are multiplicative.

> >

> > Secondly, the point of this thread is that the trait is taken in condition damage builds, and conditions gain no direct benefit from critical damage. While superiority complex is strong, it is not overwhelmingly strong in a condition build as you mistakenly imply. If there were a relevant condition damage trait in the dueling grandmaster slot, it would likely be better than superiority complex. Since superiority complex is the only relevant trait in that location, it is picked by default.

>

> crit means bleeding in that build ....

and superiority complex buffs crit damage not the bleeding?

the devs should have looser shoulders after this massage.

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > If it's moslty open world mirage you could possibly imagined burden with empowered illusions, 12 sec double zerk with might+vuln on ambush would probably be fine.

> > >

> > > Grab duel or illu for more damage

> > > Or Insp for cleanse, chaos for stab.

> > >

> > > Condi is vastly superior in PvE content in general, but if you aren't willing to make vipers this could probably take you through tier 3 fractals presuming you don't get kicked for a selfish build.

> > >

> >

> > Not exactly.

> >

> > In raids, there are some instances where power dps is superior due to having better upfront damage. This is why in KC, Weaver was king for a long time, in Sabetha pugs search for Power DPS to deal with cannons, VG power dps is better due to phasing and VG having lower armor, outside of Epi bouncing (which is dead right now). Condis are good for fights that just has one target allowing your condis to ramp up and upkept or bosses with high armor making power dps less effective.

> >

> > In fractals, power is superior in every fractal made. Most bosses have phases, breakbars which allow you to burst them in high amounts condi cant and mobs just die in a second with Power. Condi cant deal with mobs that well. Not to mention most Power options have really good cleave which is really important in clearing fractals.

> >

> > In open world power is infact better as well, maybe just outside champion bosses, where condi can shine because the fights last long enough. But most of the time you'll be jumping from one trash mob to another where power's burst damage is superior.

>

> Sorry, do you mean as Mirage as well? Because that was the context I was going with.

>

> I find it a little hard to think of power mirage being all that useful in raids and fracs, or at least not being inferior to condi in most fights that matter. When it comes to power with other classss or builds I have no doubt.

>

> Although, I’d happily welcome being wrong on that. To often do I get shade for trying to run power mirage in t4 fracs and end up switching gear or going chrono.

>

> (Ah I see the confusion, in my stament when I said “superior in general” I meant specifically mirage useage in general.)

>

>

well that's a misunderstanding. apologies.

well going for Power Chrono with GS is your best bet really. As Chrono works really well with GS as its a power weapon and the Phantasm with Chronophantasm is also pretty strong.

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> If it's moslty open world mirage you could possibly imagined burden with empowered illusions, 12 sec double zerk with might+vuln on ambush would probably be fine.

>

> Grab duel or illu for more damage

> Or Insp for cleanse, chaos for stab.

>

> Condi is vastly superior in PvE content in general, but if you aren't willing to make vipers this could probably take you through tier 3 fractals presuming you don't get kicked for a selfish build.

>

Not exactly.

In raids, there are some instances where power dps is superior due to having better upfront damage. This is why in KC, Weaver was king for a long time, in Sabetha pugs search for Power DPS to deal with cannons, VG power dps is better due to phasing and VG having lower armor, outside of Epi bouncing (which is dead right now). Condis are good for fights that just has one target allowing your condis to ramp up and upkept or bosses with high armor making power dps less effective.

In fractals, power is superior in every fractal made. Most bosses have phases, breakbars which allow you to burst them in high amounts condi cant and mobs just die in a second with Power. Condi cant deal with mobs that well. Not to mention most Power options have really good cleave which is really important in clearing fractals.

In open world power is infact better as well, maybe just outside champion bosses, where condi can shine because the fights last long enough. But most of the time you'll be jumping from one trash mob to another where power's burst damage is superior.

Just copy paste the Illu/Duel build and use GS and Sword/Sword.

Domi may look like worth it for Imagined Burden, but Illusions provides tons of self quickness and might as well as modifiers that are easily obtainable, faster shatters and Dueling is just the best damage traitline due to having access to tons of Fury and Superiority Complex.

lets just delet mesmer. mesmer is a mistake.

> @"saloja.7920" said:

> Take away quickness or alacrity from the mesmer repertoire. Should open the doors for some other classes.

take away quickness and alacrity from *Chrono*mancer :thonking:

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > I have tried theorycrafting on a Slow based Chrono, using both Danger Time and Lost Time. It can reach 30k dps even with a more relaxed rotation. The problem with the build that there's no point in running it instead of just using the Chronophantasma DPS variant as that build has better burst, CC and DPS.

>

> That and, as someone mentioned, 100% slow uptime just isn't realistic even in the most optimistic raid scenario. Also, the drastically lower cooldowns from improved alacrity just feels better too.

It's realistic with Lost Time traited. Lost Time applies a 3 second slow with an ICD of a 1/4 second, by themselves they can apply 100% slow uptime even without investing into condi duration.

Nerf SoI and Chaos. Chrono shouldn't be able to cover every boon in the game. At most they should be able to permanently apply two time based boons (Quickness and Alacrity).

I have tried theorycrafting on a Slow based Chrono, using both Danger Time and Lost Time. It can reach 30k dps even with a more relaxed rotation. The problem with the build that there's no point in running it instead of just using the Chronophantasma DPS variant as that build has better burst, CC and DPS.

The Condi clone build that raiders use doesn't shatter (else it's a dps loss till you get your clones back) much which makes Ineptitude irrelevant making it only proc on The Prestige, Deceptive Evasion doesn't help much at all since you'll always have 3 clones up thus Superiority Complex is choses simply because there's not a relevant condition grandmaster in Dueling. Condi builds still crit and have power damage so it still benefits even though less effectively.