Moradorin.6217

> @"Senqu.8054" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > Hadn’t 6 out of 8 classes more dodge then mirage before the one dodge nerf? xD > > > > > > EH don't all the other classes have 2 dodges minimum except mirage? > > > > > > > He is saying 6 of 8 had 2 dodges when Mirage had 2 dodges. Some get 3. > > Im saying that 6 out of 8 classes had more dodges per minute then Mirage > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > Hadn’t 6 out of 8 classes more dodge then mirage before the one dodge nerf? xD > > > > > > EH don't all the other classes have 2 dodges minimum except mirage? > > > > > > > He is saying 6 of 8 had 2 dodges when Mirage had 2 dodges. Some get 3. > > Im saying that 6 out of 8 classes had more dodges per minute then Mirage That makes more sense =)

> @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > Hadn’t 6 out of 8 classes more dodge then mirage before the one dodge nerf? xD > > EH don't all the other classes have 2 dodges minimum except mirage? > He is saying 6 of 8 had 2 dodges when Mirage had 2 dodges. Some get 3.

> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >**_How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?_** Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You literally said that. =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I literally didn't =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will try to elaborate more so you can understand. > > > > > > > > > > > > After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying " **How is that a trade off **when you are able to **jaunt, port, or sword leap** away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, that isn't what I am implying. What I am trying to say is that on the list of reasons Mirage could use another dodge, getting out of AOEs was literally never on my list. The thought "if only I had a second dodge to get out of this AOE" has either never happened or happened so infrequently that I don't remember ever having it. > > > > > > > > Thats funny I guess you have not played much Mirage in the last year or two. That explains your perspective on its balance, however. > > > > > > I have played Condi Mirage and Condi Chrono near exclusively for the past 8 months or so. I never have played the easy classes in MMOs and never will. I have always enjoyed being the underdog and outplaying my opponents. I don't want or expect to have easy handed to me on a silver platter, but I guess that explains the difference on our perspectives for balance. > > > > > > As I said earlier "I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too." > > > > > > So you see, I am very far from alone on my sentiments regarding Mirage balance. Like Helseth, I think Mirage's resustain is the bigger issue for Mirage than a second dodge. Mirage has one of the worst heals in the game, it's on a long cooldown, and the only real resustain Mirage and Mesmer really has is to exit combat. The only other class that operates like that is thief, but thief can disengage (and reengage) MUCH easier than Mesmer. That is the reason Mesmer is essentially useless on maps like Skyhammer, because disengage is next to impossible. > > > > > > > > > > You seem to primarily be looking at things from a rPvP perspective which is fine. However, you arent going to run into the same issues with AoE and cleaves pvp vs wvw, still the issue I pointed out has yet to actually be adressed or refuted by you. All you have done now is quote two well known players making general comments that dont address the specifics that I am talking about that you seem to want to claim are wrong without actually bringing any relevent counter argument. You simply claim its never been an issue for you so it must not be a real thing. Which is a very poor argument especially considering how common it is for mesmers to point to the lack of mobility from MC and how it creates an obvious and unescapable downside when caught in AoE and cleave. The generalized and very old quotes are pretty pointless to me as a counter argument since it is a broad generalization that neither supports or refutes your argument or mine. > > So we are talking about WvW and not PvP? That is fine. Like I said I have been playing Chronomancer and Mirage almost exclusively. That includes in both a WvW and PvP environment. You dismiss utilities to escape AOEs as being valid. I can prove that wrong very easily. Play Chronomancer in WvW. Find out how much more punishing it is to play as Chronomancer in WvW when you don't have all those utilities that Mirage has to escape cleave and AOE. A second dodge does not come close to removing you from the situations nearly as well as what you have with Mirage. As Chronomancer if you are stuck in cleave and AOE you have one single option and that is to teleport out, if that is on CD you have 0 options. As a Mirage you have many actual options. You can jaunt, you can MC, you can axe 2 for mobility, you can port with axe 3 to avoid it, you can sword ambush, you can distort. You have soooooooo much more leeway as Mirage to find yourself in those kind of situations and survive because of it's kit. Play Chronomancer and see just how wrong you are in assuming that having 2 regular dodges makes up for all of those things. No thats just it, you are going in circles and and ignoreing that the actual argument I and others made. Which is simply that since EVERY class has mobility utilities those not a "Mesmer thing". However, Mirage cloak is. Additionally, the point is that **Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.** WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE. **ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.** YOU ARE TRYING TO GO AROUND IT AND CLAIM ITS PLAY STYLE. **YOU ARE WRONG FACTUALLY**. YOUR OPINION DOESNT COME INTO IT. **YOUR PLAY STYLE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.** Rather than actually talk about the facts of the topic you keep trying to claim you are such an amazing Mesmer that you apparently dominate everyone and never die. Can we see some video? Cause I simply think your 100% full of it. You are worked hard to avoid the actual topic with generalizations, appeal to authority and a number of other fallacies.

> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > >**_How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?_** Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...] > > > > > > > > > > > > You literally said that. =) > > > > > > > > > > I literally didn't =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will try to elaborate more so you can understand. > > > > > > > > After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying " **How is that a trade off **when you are able to **jaunt, port, or sword leap** away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > > > No, that isn't what I am implying. What I am trying to say is that on the list of reasons Mirage could use another dodge, getting out of AOEs was literally never on my list. The thought "if only I had a second dodge to get out of this AOE" has either never happened or happened so infrequently that I don't remember ever having it. > > > > Thats funny I guess you have not played much Mirage in the last year or two. That explains your perspective on its balance, however. > > I have played Condi Mirage and Condi Chrono near exclusively for the past 8 months or so. I never have played the easy classes in MMOs and never will. I have always enjoyed being the underdog and outplaying my opponents. I don't want or expect to have easy handed to me on a silver platter, but I guess that explains the difference on our perspectives for balance. > > As I said earlier "I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too." > > So you see, I am very far from alone on my sentiments regarding Mirage balance. Like Helseth, I think Mirage's resustain is the bigger issue for Mirage than a second dodge. Mirage has one of the worst heals in the game, it's on a long cooldown, and the only real resustain Mirage and Mesmer really has is to exit combat. The only other class that operates like that is thief, but thief can disengage (and reengage) MUCH easier than Mesmer. That is the reason Mesmer is essentially useless on maps like Skyhammer, because disengage is next to impossible. > > You seem to primarily be looking at things from a rPvP perspective which is fine. However, you arent going to run into the same issues with AoE and cleaves pvp vs wvw, still the issue I pointed out has yet to actually be adressed or refuted by you. All you have done now is quote two well known players making general comments that dont address the specifics that I am talking about that you seem to want to claim are wrong without actually bringing any relevent counter argument. You simply claim its never been an issue for you so it must not be a real thing. Which is a very poor argument especially considering how common it is for mesmers to point to the lack of mobility from MC and how it creates an obvious and unescapable downside when caught in AoE and cleave. The generalized and very old quotes are pretty pointless to me as a counter argument since it is a broad generalization that neither supports or refutes your argument or mine.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > Not just that, wvw covers cmirage faults. > > > > > Trailblazer to cover for low protection and no toughness that pvp mesmer gets. > > > > > Energy sigil and energy food to cover for 1 dodge and nerfed vigor uptimes. > > > > > And tormenting runes for healing to cover the fact that mirage has one of the worst healings in the game. > > > > > > > > Actually no energy sigil over caps the endurance bar so no it doesn't cover it, dodge recharge bar is still 8 seconds even with vigor and energy food. > > > > Torment runes are neglectable in terms of heal because now you only have one dodge you either dodge for dmg or you dodge to avoid dmg there is no doing both. > > > > The only thing that is correct is yes trailblazer covers the defensive part of it. Other then that condi mirage in WvW is ignorable and avoidable. > > > > Fact that our dodge bar requires 8 seconds to recharge while weapon swap is 10 seconds and sigil of cleansing is 3 condi remove (torment, burn, confusion) condi mirage does no damage. > > > > That is unless you decide to 1 v 1 a condi mirage then yea maybe it could beat you after 20+ min of fighting. > > > > > > tormenting runes heal for 171 per torment applies, so that 1 scepter block that lands is 850 healing. > > > And if we go to extremes and say you land IH axe with 3 clones that is 12 torment for 2050 healing ( this is 1/3 of a healing skill btw ) > > > add in staff/axe/scepter autos, and other skills and torment runes will double mirages healing output. Its definitely not neglectable. > > > > > > And even without IH its constant stream of healing that other classes have built into their kit and mesmer doesnt. And rune fills that gap. > > > Axe 2 for axample is 4 torment for over 600hp healing, 4clone shatter with torment on shatter trait is another 600+ healing. > > > And it adds up and up and up and up and ends up healing more then healing skill. PASSIVELY. > > > > The torrment is only applied on block when facing the opponent. It is not without risk to say the least considering how many attacks are un-blockable to begin with and considering these days (wasnt always the case) the mes is forced to face them and let them get in range and use an attack and hope/gamble its blockable to begin with. Likewise axe forces the mirage to get up in the face of the opponent to continue to apply torrment. That said, I agree torrment runes can be useful. Perplexity can get you better burst but some times you really need the sustain. At least if you like to run dueling for confusion on rupt like me. > > you decide what you use scepter 2 against and not your oponent, if the attack is not blockable then dont use scepter block on it, and use other things to evade like jaunt, dodge, axe 3, rupt them ETC. > All classes have VERY limited unblockable, most classes dont even have it to begin with I sorta agree, but you are talking about using it for a 850 heal.I would actually argue that when you need a heal you probably have a limited window in which to use the block and get a heal if at all. Im just pointing out its not like a mesmer can just run around with torrment runes and hit 3 and expect to get a heal even if the opponent if birraging them with damage they need to actually be facing the opponent and make sure they will hit and trigger the effect. Which isnt just passive random unskilled play,

> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > > > > >**_How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?_** Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > > > > > > > > So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid. > > > > > > > > > > I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...] > > > > > > > > You literally said that. =) > > > > > > I literally didn't =) > > > > > > > > I will try to elaborate more so you can understand. > > > > After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying " **How is that a trade off **when you are able to **jaunt, port, or sword leap** away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > No, that isn't what I am implying. What I am trying to say is that on the list of reasons Mirage could use another dodge, getting out of AOEs was literally never on my list. The thought "if only I had a second dodge to get out of this AOE" has either never happened or happened so infrequently that I don't remember ever having it. Thats funny I guess you have not played much Mirage in the last year or two. That explains your perspective on its balance, however.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > Not just that, wvw covers cmirage faults. > > > Trailblazer to cover for low protection and no toughness that pvp mesmer gets. > > > Energy sigil and energy food to cover for 1 dodge and nerfed vigor uptimes. > > > And tormenting runes for healing to cover the fact that mirage has one of the worst healings in the game. > > > > Actually no energy sigil over caps the endurance bar so no it doesn't cover it, dodge recharge bar is still 8 seconds even with vigor and energy food. > > Torment runes are neglectable in terms of heal because now you only have one dodge you either dodge for dmg or you dodge to avoid dmg there is no doing both. > > The only thing that is correct is yes trailblazer covers the defensive part of it. Other then that condi mirage in WvW is ignorable and avoidable. > > Fact that our dodge bar requires 8 seconds to recharge while weapon swap is 10 seconds and sigil of cleansing is 3 condi remove (torment, burn, confusion) condi mirage does no damage. > > That is unless you decide to 1 v 1 a condi mirage then yea maybe it could beat you after 20+ min of fighting. > > tormenting runes heal for 171 per torment applies, so that 1 scepter block that lands is 850 healing. > And if we go to extremes and say you land IH axe with 3 clones that is 12 torment for 2050 healing ( this is 1/3 of a healing skill btw ) > add in staff/axe/scepter autos, and other skills and torment runes will double mirages healing output. Its definitely not neglectable. > > And even without IH its constant stream of healing that other classes have built into their kit and mesmer doesnt. And rune fills that gap. > Axe 2 for axample is 4 torment for over 600hp healing, 4clone shatter with torment on shatter trait is another 600+ healing. > And it adds up and up and up and up and ends up healing more then healing skill. PASSIVELY. The torrment is only applied on block when facing the opponent. It is not without risk to say the least considering how many attacks are un-blockable to begin with and considering these days (wasnt always the case) the mes is forced to face them and let them get in range and use an attack and hope/gamble its blockable to begin with. Likewise axe forces the mirage to get up in the face of the opponent to continue to apply torrment. That said, I agree torrment runes can be useful. Perplexity can get you better burst but some times you really need the sustain. At least if you like to run dueling for confusion on rupt like me.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Yoci.2481" said: > > Condi Mirage can be very annoying in WvW but that is mostly because of dire and trailblazer stats that give extreme survivability while having almost maximum condition damage. The condition damage itself isn't the issue, but the strong defense combined with stealth and detargets make it unfun to play against. > > Not just that, wvw covers cmirage faults. > Trailblazer to cover for low protection and no toughness that pvp mesmer gets. > Energy sigil and energy food to cover for 1 dodge and nerfed vigor uptimes. > And tormenting runes for healing to cover the fact that mirage has one of the worst healings in the game. I would actually say that energy food in wvw is a waste to use with one dodge in wvw. Why? because you have no overflow space for the energy. You get one dodge max so if you use energy food you are kinda wasting you food because you will only get benefit when your dodge bar isnt full but with one dodge you hold your dodge most of the time. THis means most of the time the food has no benefit. ;) Use expertise instead or clove or peppercorn like everyone else. thats my 2cp on food in wvw for one dodge. I think you may find as I have that energy food kinda sucks in wvw on Mirage now.

> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > >**_How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?_** Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > > > > > How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > > > > So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid. > > > > > > I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...] > > > > You literally said that. =) > > I literally didn't =) I will try to elaborate more so you can understand. After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying " **How is that a trade off **when you are able to **jaunt, port, or sword leap** away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > >**_How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?_** Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid. > > I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...] You literally said that. =)

> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid.

> @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

> @"Touchme.1097" said: > Dear ArenaNet, > It became clear to me that most of the gaming community here doesn't like PoF maps and sitting in LFG for 4 hours waiting for players to join my squad just for one bounty champion has become unbearable. Why don't you just make normal bounties soloable and leave the group requirement only for legendary bounties? > It has become easier to find a legendary bounty squad in LFG than non legendary ones because some professions can solo them but this is actually unfair on those players who play professions which can't solo all the normal bounties. > Also please, don't make EoD like PoF with too much content built around groups because players like to get things done once and don't usually participate in that same event unless the rewards are seriously worth the time and the efforts like for the Meta events. > > I am sitting in PoF maps waiting for a squad to do my bounties for my achievement and titles and I would love to have some fun but the way you designed these events are taking the fun out of them. Sounds like you had some bad luck maybe. Im usually able to get enough people to do bounties when I or someone I know needs them. I usually find people by tagging up in the map, then shouting in /map which bounties Im doing. When they are for things like espec weapon collections I always mention its for that. I find many other people are often around that want that same bounty or maybe will help but they would also like to do another they need. Not sure your situation. Im just wondering if maybe that strategy could help.

I think the times take the fun out of it too. Im pretty sure they didnt put a TP into the Guild Hall cause it would make passes like Bastion and Mistlock allot less useful. That said, PvP covers it all so do BL entrances so I think its misguided on Anet's part.

> @"Dexay.1962" said: > Finally Arenanet understands what we need. I give the patch a straight 8/10, because I miss the tooltip rework for Thieves Guild. Hilarious survey of the no balance patch