Jeydra.4386
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Posts posted by Jeydra.4386
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Bump
As of time of writing I still need 3 wins, but it's really hard to get a game on the map - I can easily play 20+ matches and not get a game, which is frustrating.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Jeydra.4386" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Jeydra.4386" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:
> > > > > > > @"Jeydra.4386" said:
> > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the *worst* possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is *already weak*. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.
> > > > > > What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly *underpowered*. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.
> > > >
> > > > I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.
> > >
> > > The thing is, if the thief is stupid enough to use in-combat stealth, thats one of the few ways that you can kill a thief. He is pretty shields down if he does that.
> >
> > That doesn't answer any of the points that were raised, unless you are arguing that Thief is broken but stealth isn't.
>
> To answer your points, you misplayed because you failed to kill him when he gave you the perfect opportunity to kill him with stealth. And nah, neither stealth nor thief are broken. Not being able to be killed isnt worth much if youre also not able to kill. Thief can only draw.
Why don't you say he misplayed by giving me the opportunity to kill him then. You're really grasping at straws now, because the moment you acknowledge that Thieves cannot be killed unless they allow themselves to be killed, you back up my argument. Not going to respond anymore, because you are patently not getting it (e.g. by saying that you cannot interact with Weavers and Mirages, which indicates you don't understand and/or don't want to understand what "interact" means.)
Thief is stupidly broken and needs to be nerfed into oblivion.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Jeydra.4386" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:
> > > > > @"Jeydra.4386" said:
> > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the *worst* possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is *already weak*. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.
> > > > >
> > > > > What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.
> > > > >
> > > > > And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).
> > > > >
> > > > > Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.
> > > >
> > > > The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.
> > > > What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly *underpowered*. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.
> > >
> > > > Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.
> > > >
> > >
> > > No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.
> > >
> > > > Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.
> >
> > I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.
>
> The thing is, if the thief is stupid enough to use in-combat stealth, thats one of the few ways that you can kill a thief. He is pretty shields down if he does that.
That doesn't answer any of the points that were raised, unless you are arguing that Thief is broken but stealth isn't.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:
> > > @"Jeydra.4386" said:
> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the *worst* possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is *already weak*. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.
> > >
> > > What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.
> > >
> > > And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).
> > >
> > > Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.
> >
> > The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.
> > What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.
> >
>
> Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly *underpowered*. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.
>
> > Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.
> >
>
> No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.
>
> > Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.
> >
>
> Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.
I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Jeydra.4386" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Jeydra.4386" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > NPCs do not do a whole lot of damage. When I ran Glass Berserker for a bit (as a joke, really), even with Berserker mode on, unless the supervisor was still determined, Id be nowhere close to dying. But if, say, a Ranger decided to train Rapid Fire on me? Yeah Id be downed pretty much immediately. You absolutely can just him with CC and burst and down him. And sure, he has two stunbreaks. Each with a 50 second cooldown. Once you got both down, you won. He has to run, and wont be able to reengage for another half minute. And yes, if he is just wasting his own time, he has given up and run away.
> > > >
> > > > >If you can put them in combat they port out and break combat. The trick is that they stealth while youre in no range to hit them.
> > > >
> > > > > Let me let you in on a little secret. Trolling multiple players? Only works against really bad players. Against good players, the thief just cuts his losses and runs. Because if he doesnt, he dies. Simple as that. So no ,stealth doesnt need to be nerfed at all (And in-combat stealth, if anything, needs to be buffed).
> > > >
> > > > I can't change builds or classes if I'm already in combat, so "you can absolutely just CC him and burst" does not work.
> > > >
> > >
> > > If your class can not CC, or burst, then the problem is your build. If you cant do either of those, you wont be able to kill *anyone*.
> > >
> > > > For trolling keeps: how it works doesn't matter, the point is that it works and is extraordinarily hard to counterplay.
> > > >
> > >
> > > And its an easy solution. Max 6 seconds total duration in stealth. Next.
> > >
> > > > As for not dying vs multiple players: or maybe they have builds that are countered by what the Thief has equipped. You could try it estimating it: how many good Condi Mirages does it take to kill a good thief?
> > > >
> > >
> > > If the thief is stupid enough to try and stealth up mid-combat, 1. If he runs away, youre not killing him.
> > >
> > > > By the way: if you can name a build that can kill - not just avoid dying to, but outright kill, preferably even when they're trying to run away - Thieves 1v1 in WvW, please tell me what it is. I'll go out of my way to gear it and learn it.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Unless youre on flat ground, no one can catch up to a thief when theyre running away. Thats the one thing theyre good at. So you wont kill them there. On the other hand, kill them if they *dont* run away? Every build. DH, Firebrand, core guardian, Warrior, Berserker, Spellbreaker, Renegade, Herald, Core Revenant, other thieves (duh), Ranger, Druid, Soulbeast, Engineer, Holo, Scrapper, etc. etc..
> > >
> > > > > @"kash.9213" said:
> > > > > Kind of sounds like they're blinding through those npcs and probably why it looked like tanking. I don't know anything about your build or theirs or what the combat tab looked like though. Everything scares me so I might have hammered him from range instead since he looks like someone who knows they'll get jumped and I'll feel things out a bit while also panning camera a bit to look around. Get them to jump you instead and build thorny and have some reach for when they nope out and bonus if it punishes whatever they'll use next. Some people are just really good and alert though, I got shook by a core s/d thief who budgeted their Initiative really well last weekend and all I could do was look at my combat tab to see if I could adjust and waddle back out onto the map.
> > > >
> > > > "Get them to jump you" is part of the problem, they are only going to jump you if they think they can win, so even if you down them the entire scenario can only arise if they made a mistake (i.e. they thought they can win when they can't). Otherwise they get to grief you forever, since you will never kill them.
> > >
> > > Which means if they dont think they can win (i.e. if youre not a bad player), theyre not going to jump you. That means they wont "grief" you either. They will just run away and look for bad players elsewhere.
> >
> > Again, don't say "the problem is your build" because once you are in combat you cannot switch. For many classes, you actually have to disengage, equip a revealed skill, and then go back hoping the Thief is still there.
> >
>
> The problem is that your build is evidently not good enough to face *anything*. Thief is the least of your worry.
>
> > Condi Mirage vs. thief: have you actually tried this? The Thief skill that grants all boons is effectively unbeatable. They have Resistance when they're not stealthed, tons of target breaks, ports, etc, maybe even remove conditions on dodging. Equal skill they cannot die 1v1 (heck I'd venture that even with a big skill disadvantage, they cannot die 1v1, because they will disengage before they actually die).
> >
>
> If he is stupid enough to stealth up, that skill wont save him. You CC him and kill him. Cant use Ecto while CCd, after all. He has no target breaks *at all*. Thats a Mesmer thing, not a thief thing. Even Stealth doesnt break targets immediately. And the condi clear on dodge, besides not being used because its not very good, fails to clear a burst. Youre right that the thief wont die 1v1 because he will run away. But if the thief is stupid enough to not run, and if he is even more stupid and tries to stealth up in the middle of the fight, then he will absolutely die.
>
> > "Unless youre on flat ground, no one can catch up to a thief when theyre running away." - which is a BIG part of the problem. You have a class that cannot be killed unless they take risks. Literally NOBODY can kill a Thief if they don't want to be killed. Hell, several players might still not be enough to kill a Thief if they don't want to be killed. Which means they can do things like tap Keeps forever, and they don't even need to be in the Keep to do it. Just an hour or so ago we were defending our Hills on an Alpine borderland. We killed most of the invaders, sans one Deadeye. We had six people trying to kill him. Didn't manage. He stealthed and disengaged against SIX players, in spite of being surrounded on a cliff. No other class can do this. Thankfully he didn't stick around trolling the Keep, because otherwise we might've wound up pulling our hair out.
> >
>
> First, note how I said "unless youre on flat ground". Yeah turns out on flat ground, there is one class that can catch up to thief, and outruns literally everyone. If they dont want to be killed, they will also never be killed. Actually, there are *2* classes. Ranger, and Warrior. The difference is, Ranger and Warrior can kill enemies. Thief cannot. They can also keep a keep tapped. And again, that is easily solved. 6 second max total duration on stealth.
>
> > As for "they won't grief you they will run away and look for bad players elsewhere" - how do you know they won't? Because I've certainly encountered Thieves who will. They can't kill you, but they keep you in combat. Like, say I get to a Camp which the Thief is trying to flip. I attack him with enough damage that any other class will die, but it's a Thief, he stealths and disengages. Then he hits me a bit, stealths again, hits a bit, I'm clearly not going to die especially with NPCs, but he stays nearby. Now what? No class can actually kill him. I could leave, but then he'll flip the camp (and I can't even leave if he doesn't want me to). What CAN I do? Suggest something.
> >
>
> Because they cant keep you in combat. Lets fix your chain of events. "Like, say I get to a Camp which the Thief is trying to flip. I attack him with enough damage that any other class will die, but it's a Thief, he ~~stealths and disengages~~ makes the stupid mistake of trying to stealth up. You immediately kill him as a result of that mistake. The story ends here.". Now lets assume the thief wasnt bad, and instead did the correct thing. He switches to shortbow, and uses shortbow 5 to disengage. Now, he is safe, but he wont be able to keep you in combat. If you try to run and he chases, he dies, because his initiative is depleted.
>
> Now you are right, if you run he might just flip the camp. So his presence can force you to stay there. But here is the funny thing: I can do the exact same thing with Engineer. All I have to do is sit on a mount, and wait. You wont be able to kill me. The mount ensures that. And if you run, Ill flip the camp. What can you do? Not a whole lot, but thats WvW for you.
>
> > tl; dr: Thieves are silly and need to be nerfed into oblivion.
>
> Yeah except they arent and they dont. The only thing that needs to change is for stealths total duration to be capped (I suggest 6 seconds). After that, thief is arguably just weak, and we could talk about increasing their damage a bit.
I'm comfortable fighting any class, including Thief, except the Thieves that exist to grief people. So I do not agree with your claim that I am not ready to face anyone.
I don't think you've played condi Mirage vs. Thief before. You CC him and kill him - with what, Diversion? That's not available immediately because it takes clone generation, otherwise it's melee range, and it's not even a real CC since it only dazes. Plus Consume Plasma is not an easy skill to interrupt.
Ranger and Warrior might be able to keep up with Thief if they're running in the same direction. Problem is that's never the case, because they will stealth, and then run in the opposite direction you do. "The Thief never dies unless they make a mistake or unless they are taking risks." Agree? If so then explain why this would not be a problem?
You can't force me to stay in the camp as an Engineer because I will go out there and kill you. You can't mount up, because you are in combat. If you aren't in combat then neither am I, in which case I can also mount up and dismount you. Thief is unique because they cannot be killed.
One more thing. If you are challenged to make a build with the explicit aim of trolling the other player/team, which class would you use? Is it Thief?
I don't have anything more to say.
@kash relying on the other guy making a mistake is never a reliable strategy. Sure it looks great when it works, but if it doesn't then the joke's on you.
> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:
> Question; how often do you kill/survive vs a thief that jumps you when roaming? Score it x out of 10. Don't count any losses when you're on group/zerg builds, because if you're expecting to win 1v1 vs a roamer on a zerg build you are no better than the players bringing rangers and thieves to a zerg. Build templates and mounts are a thing, so there's really no excuse for getting caught out 1v1 on a zerg build. So what kind of number are we thinking?
>
> If you are thinking 8 or 9 times out of 10, there is no problem because you are obviously countering them most of the time, and even if they run they aren't getting the kill. No changes needed.
>
> If you are thinking 4, 5 or 6 times out of 10, again, the matchup is evidently pretty balanced, neither you nor the thief has a clear advantage assuming equal skill. No changes needed.
>
> Only if you are thinking 1 or 2 times out of 10 is there a potential problem, which leads to a second question; are you playing a class/build that is weak to thief, did you make a mistake that the thief capitalised on, or are you losing because you don't know how to counter them? If you're thinking you need to go OOC to equip a reveal skill or change skills so you're more/less tanky, see paragraph 1, you're not on the right build. If you're playing a zerker build, you will get killed as fast as you kill, you agree to that risk when you decide to build that way. If you're playing a reaper, DPS ele or glassy mesmer, nothing wrong there, every class has counters and thief is yours (although if you play well you can still win). If you're playing anything else, you need to consider working on your build or your playstyle, because every other 1v1/roaming class/build can delete a thief given you know the counters your class has and you don't make a mistake.
Killing the Thief is fairly rare - 2/10 maybe. Surviving the Thief is much more common - 8/10 maybe.
Also I don't see why you think "you need to OOC to equip a reveal skill" means you have the wrong build. You can't guarantee you will be fighting a Thief when you're out roaming, and most reveal skills are bad or unnecessary against non-stealth classes.
Again if you have a build that can kill - not just survive, but outright kill, preferably also when they are trying to run away - a Thief, please say what it is. Give all traits, equipment, etc. I want to try it myself.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Jeydra.4386" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > NPCs do not do a whole lot of damage. When I ran Glass Berserker for a bit (as a joke, really), even with Berserker mode on, unless the supervisor was still determined, Id be nowhere close to dying. But if, say, a Ranger decided to train Rapid Fire on me? Yeah Id be downed pretty much immediately. You absolutely can just him with CC and burst and down him. And sure, he has two stunbreaks. Each with a 50 second cooldown. Once you got both down, you won. He has to run, and wont be able to reengage for another half minute. And yes, if he is just wasting his own time, he has given up and run away.
> >
> > >If you can put them in combat they port out and break combat. The trick is that they stealth while youre in no range to hit them.
> >
> > > Let me let you in on a little secret. Trolling multiple players? Only works against really bad players. Against good players, the thief just cuts his losses and runs. Because if he doesnt, he dies. Simple as that. So no ,stealth doesnt need to be nerfed at all (And in-combat stealth, if anything, needs to be buffed).
> >
> > I can't change builds or classes if I'm already in combat, so "you can absolutely just CC him and burst" does not work.
> >
>
> If your class can not CC, or burst, then the problem is your build. If you cant do either of those, you wont be able to kill *anyone*.
>
> > For trolling keeps: how it works doesn't matter, the point is that it works and is extraordinarily hard to counterplay.
> >
>
> And its an easy solution. Max 6 seconds total duration in stealth. Next.
>
> > As for not dying vs multiple players: or maybe they have builds that are countered by what the Thief has equipped. You could try it estimating it: how many good Condi Mirages does it take to kill a good thief?
> >
>
> If the thief is stupid enough to try and stealth up mid-combat, 1. If he runs away, youre not killing him.
>
> > By the way: if you can name a build that can kill - not just avoid dying to, but outright kill, preferably even when they're trying to run away - Thieves 1v1 in WvW, please tell me what it is. I'll go out of my way to gear it and learn it.
> >
>
> Unless youre on flat ground, no one can catch up to a thief when theyre running away. Thats the one thing theyre good at. So you wont kill them there. On the other hand, kill them if they *dont* run away? Every build. DH, Firebrand, core guardian, Warrior, Berserker, Spellbreaker, Renegade, Herald, Core Revenant, other thieves (duh), Ranger, Druid, Soulbeast, Engineer, Holo, Scrapper, etc. etc..
>
> > > @"kash.9213" said:
> > > Kind of sounds like they're blinding through those npcs and probably why it looked like tanking. I don't know anything about your build or theirs or what the combat tab looked like though. Everything scares me so I might have hammered him from range instead since he looks like someone who knows they'll get jumped and I'll feel things out a bit while also panning camera a bit to look around. Get them to jump you instead and build thorny and have some reach for when they nope out and bonus if it punishes whatever they'll use next. Some people are just really good and alert though, I got shook by a core s/d thief who budgeted their Initiative really well last weekend and all I could do was look at my combat tab to see if I could adjust and waddle back out onto the map.
> >
> > "Get them to jump you" is part of the problem, they are only going to jump you if they think they can win, so even if you down them the entire scenario can only arise if they made a mistake (i.e. they thought they can win when they can't). Otherwise they get to grief you forever, since you will never kill them.
>
> Which means if they dont think they can win (i.e. if youre not a bad player), theyre not going to jump you. That means they wont "grief" you either. They will just run away and look for bad players elsewhere.
Again, don't say "the problem is your build" because once you are in combat you cannot switch. For many classes, you actually have to disengage, equip a revealed skill, and then go back hoping the Thief is still there.
Condi Mirage vs. thief: have you actually tried this? The Thief skill that grants all boons is effectively unbeatable. They have Resistance when they're not stealthed, tons of target breaks, ports, etc, maybe even remove conditions on dodging. Equal skill they cannot die 1v1 (heck I'd venture that even with a big skill disadvantage, they cannot die 1v1, because they will disengage before they actually die).
"Unless youre on flat ground, no one can catch up to a thief when theyre running away." - which is a BIG part of the problem. You have a class that cannot be killed unless they take risks. Literally NOBODY can kill a Thief if they don't want to be killed. Hell, several players might still not be enough to kill a Thief if they don't want to be killed. Which means they can do things like tap Keeps forever, and they don't even need to be in the Keep to do it. Just an hour or so ago we were defending our Hills on an Alpine borderland. We killed most of the invaders, sans one Deadeye. We had six people trying to kill him. Didn't manage. He stealthed and disengaged against SIX players, in spite of being surrounded on a cliff. No other class can do this. Thankfully he didn't stick around trolling the Keep, because otherwise we might've wound up pulling our hair out.
As for "they won't grief you they will run away and look for bad players elsewhere" - how do you know they won't? Because I've certainly encountered Thieves who will. They can't kill you, but they keep you in combat. Like, say I get to a Camp which the Thief is trying to flip. I attack him with enough damage that any other class will die, but it's a Thief, he stealths and disengages. Then he hits me a bit, stealths again, hits a bit, I'm clearly not going to die especially with NPCs, but he stays nearby. Now what? No class can actually kill him. I could leave, but then he'll flip the camp (and I can't even leave if he doesn't want me to). What CAN I do? Suggest something.
tl; dr: Thieves are silly and need to be nerfed into oblivion.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> NPCs do not do a whole lot of damage. When I ran Glass Berserker for a bit (as a joke, really), even with Berserker mode on, unless the supervisor was still determined, Id be nowhere close to dying. But if, say, a Ranger decided to train Rapid Fire on me? Yeah Id be downed pretty much immediately. You absolutely can just him with CC and burst and down him. And sure, he has two stunbreaks. Each with a 50 second cooldown. Once you got both down, you won. He has to run, and wont be able to reengage for another half minute. And yes, if he is just wasting his own time, he has given up and run away.
>If you can put them in combat they port out and break combat. The trick is that they stealth while youre in no range to hit them.
> Let me let you in on a little secret. Trolling multiple players? Only works against really bad players. Against good players, the thief just cuts his losses and runs. Because if he doesnt, he dies. Simple as that. So no ,stealth doesnt need to be nerfed at all (And in-combat stealth, if anything, needs to be buffed).
I can't change builds or classes if I'm already in combat, so "you can absolutely just CC him and burst" does not work.
For trolling keeps: how it works doesn't matter, the point is that it works and is extraordinarily hard to counterplay.
As for not dying vs multiple players: or maybe they have builds that are countered by what the Thief has equipped. You could try it estimating it: how many good Condi Mirages does it take to kill a good thief?
By the way: if you can name a build that can kill - not just avoid dying to, but outright kill, preferably even when they're trying to run away - Thieves 1v1 in WvW, please tell me what it is. I'll go out of my way to gear it and learn it.
> @"kash.9213" said:
> Kind of sounds like they're blinding through those npcs and probably why it looked like tanking. I don't know anything about your build or theirs or what the combat tab looked like though. Everything scares me so I might have hammered him from range instead since he looks like someone who knows they'll get jumped and I'll feel things out a bit while also panning camera a bit to look around. Get them to jump you instead and build thorny and have some reach for when they nope out and bonus if it punishes whatever they'll use next. Some people are just really good and alert though, I got shook by a core s/d thief who budgeted their Initiative really well last weekend and all I could do was look at my combat tab to see if I could adjust and waddle back out onto the map.
"Get them to jump you" is part of the problem, they are only going to jump you if they think they can win, so even if you down them the entire scenario can only arise if they made a mistake (i.e. they thought they can win when they can't). Otherwise they get to grief you forever, since you will never kill them.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> >If he is a Daredevil, the only way he can stealth up consistently is Black Powder -> Heartseeker. That makes him incredibly easy to punish. When he does that, just hit him with CC and/or burst, and he gets downed really easy. And since he is D/P Daredevil, he has only the basic dodges (so fewer than most classes), and no defensive ports short of switching to shortbow 5. At which point he has to run and give up.
Are we thinking of the same thing? He doesn't stay stealthed for a long time, he just stealths every few seconds for a few seconds.
Also the thief was tanky enough to engage into NPCs and not die. So there's no such thing as "just hit him with CC and/or burst and he gets downed really easy" (don't forget they also have stunbreaks). As for "run and give up" - if you call staying out of range of NPCs but within range to put you in combat, and then moving after you if you leave the NPCs "running and giving up", then yeah, he has to run and give up. Meanwhile I'm still stuck in the camp.
As for trolling Keeps as "out of combat stealth" - you can put them in combat, making it in combat stealth. You just can't kill them while they disengage.
I'm no expert on Thieves but it's easily the most frustrating profession out there. The class is fine until they decide to grief you, when they are the king trolls of the game, often capable of trolling multiple (3+) players for as long as they want without ever dying. They/stealth needs to be nerfed into oblivion.
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I feel like the other answers are missing the point, Ele obviously has the best downed state mechanic. The point is, once you are downed, your priority is to get to safety and revive yourself. The best way to get to safety is to move backwards, and Ele is the best at that. Damage output while downed isn't really relevant. The only other comparable skill is the Ranger self-revive, but that's no Vapor Form since it still takes time to fill and you'll probably be on dangerous ground during that duration.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the *worst* possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is *already weak*. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.
What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.
And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).
Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.
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> @"Ubi.4136" said:
> I feel the opposite. Granted, I love the week anyway. That said, I normally play engineer with the occasional ranger or guard, but spent the entire weekend on my ele (weaver), cause this is a great time for it. Part of the reason I don't play my ele normally is I am not as skilled in the class, and I feel it is just too squishy to justify playing a lot. But during no downstate, I played it till I finished my tickets. It hits hard enough to make up for the squishy (as it should be), and I know that the enemy isn't gonna be downed and get ressed instantly. Surprisingly, I played a lot better than I expected, and really didn't die much. Compared to certain builds, I don't see no downstate as a nerf to ele.
Do you play mostly in coordinated zergs against foes of roughly equal numbers? With downed state, you can do things like stand on walls and DPS below because even if you go down you can Mist Form back to safety; without it, you're as powerless as a Necro. "Hit them hard enough to make up for it" doesn't work when you go down instantly as well (since Ele is the squishiest class).
I've played Ele for years and this is certainly a nerf. Keep in mind that the Ele downed skill #2 is the strongest of all the downed state skills, so removing it certainly hurts them.
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I don't think there's anything wrong with this. It just means that only the most dedicated of players will get the title. Keep in mind that the title has no other applications - no AP, no mastery, no rewards. It's just a title.
I've pretty much accepted that I probably won't be getting this title, but I probably won't be getting Ultimate Dominator either, and that title actually awards AP. So yeah.
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> @"Khenzy.9348" said:
> We are outnumbered and already using our CC skills, stabilities and defensives to barely stay alive and perfectly time those bursts. I don't even try to stomp most of the time as 90% to 100% of my HP goes away and I get downed instead (or perma CCed of course), this became even worse after the damage reduction patch because damaging the downed body is worthless 9 and a half out of 10 times. It's like the game with its mechanics is actively fighing against you winning, it's incredibly frustrating. A feeling of complete impotence overwhelms you after someone you fought so hard to down is suddenly alive and well just because some people used something as simplistic as the interact keybind on the downed body and there was almost nothing you could do about it, and they will also have stability and other kitten because this mechanic gets exponentially worse the more people you're fighting against.
Did you consider that perhaps you would not have downed those players if they knew they would not go to downstate? In other words, if there were no downstate, they would not have pushed that hard?
I am against removing downstate.
PS: Elementalist Vapor Form is a good reason to keep downstate because not having it nerfs the class quite a bit.
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I'm against removing downed state. Some classes need down state more than others, especially Elementalists. With downed state you can do things like stand on walls and nuke and if you go down, you can still Mist Form to safety. Without downed state it's too risky. Downed state also lets you do things like push harder when you have the advantage. Losing downed state makes WvW feels less intense.
The third idea of removing downed state only for opponents of outnumbered players is interesting and could work, but how would you implement it? Right now, if you are outnumbered you stay outnumbered until the next tick even if a full friendly zerg ports to your map. I don't see how this can be implemented without some substantial rework.
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Stealth is dumb. If they are full Zerker and can be killed while unstealthed then yeah, it wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately we also have builds where they do enough damage to kill you (even if they kill you slowly), but also cannot be killed because of the stealth. Especially silly are the builds which spend what feels like half the time stealthed and the remaining half dodging. Even sillier are the thieves that hide in a keep effectively forever, tapping it constantly, because they can never be revealed long enough to be killed (especially given all the ports & dodges the class has). I've been trolled at something like 6v1 odds by a thief before, which shows just how stupid stealth is. Yes, they can't kill us, but we can't kill them either in spite of the huge numbers advantage.
If people want to keep stealth, fine, but make other changes such that the thief can actually die. We could for example have much greater cooldowns on stealth (this is why Mesmer aren't a problem even though they can also stealth), some mechanic such that if you stealth X times in short order each new stealth lasts shorter, etc.
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> @"Metzie.3451" said:
> Please, what? You're asking for a whole lettering? You're expecting a lot... :)
>
> How about this, at least a little hint that something is wrong with the build.
> 
Don't know what you're talking about. See this screenshot. I clearly have a Greatsword equipped that I can't use, and there's no warning (there was no "equipment template can't be used by your current build" warning either).
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If they make that message permanently visible as long as the weapon is equipped, yeah.
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It's happened to me several times. I queue PvP on a PvE map. When I load in, my build updates. The traits, the equipped skills, etc. _But the weapons do not_. I've played so many games with my core Necro wielding a Greatsword simply because I play a Reaper in PvE with one, and the build template switches without the weapons switching too.
Of course I can switch weapons during the load phase, but it's not obvious. Like, if I loaded into PvP and saw Summon Blood Fiend on my bar I know I have to switch it, but the Greatsword is in the non-active weapon slot and I don't see it. Once the game starts it's too late to change, and having only one weaponset is a serious handicap.
Can we get a warning similar to the "you have weapons equipped with no stats selected" notification if we load into a game with a weapon we can't use, or simply just switch weapons too when we load into PvP?
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> @"enkidu.5937" said:
> Its unbelievable, you got so many explanations and still dont have a clue. No one cares what I think whos the best, or what you think whos the best. Its defined by who wins aka score.
This might be how it works in a fair game, but it's not the case in WvW because the format is inherently unbalanced.
Example: let's say there's a server that has queues on all four maps 24/7. You are playing against this server. You have 50% of their population and some dead timezones (i.e. no coverage). Your server usually wins during peak timezones when both sides have roughly equal numbers, but once people log off, they karma train everything so you only ever log on to paper objectives. By the end of the week your server has 4.00 KD, they have 0.3, and they win.
Which server is better?
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> @"Senqu.8054" said:
> In the end it doesn’t matter what I say I guess, your opinion is that playing wvw is caring for the score even if people tell you otherwise so what else can I say so I think we should leave it now then. if you guys want to think that the majority is interested in this then stay with it, it is healthier for the gamemode anyways.
Lots of people say X, then do ~X. Remember, actions speak louder than words. I gave two examples why people care about the score _even though they say they don't_.
1. During season 1, Blackgate was completely stacked. They were queued on all four maps 24/7. SoR weren't able to keep up with that, and after a competitive start to the week many of them simply stopped playing. Explain why they'd do that, if they didn't care about the score and only cared about the fights. After all if BG had zergs running on all four maps 24/7, there are lots of fights to be had. It ought to be a WvW so-called "fight guild" dream. Yet not only did they not play, those fight guilds came to the forums complaining about how overstacked BG were. Why? Because they cared about the score. You might think they didn't care about the score, but rather that they're outnumbered; that's not the case - they might not be able to map queue all four maps, but they could certainly map queue two maps, and those two maps would not be outnumbered.
2. In case that makes you think BG's fight guilds aren't like that, not so long ago two servers (if I remember right, KN and SBI) 2v1'ed BG out of T1. It was the first time in a long, long while that BG wasn't in T1. By the end of the week, KN and SBI had gotten so bored they'd started to fight each other. Why, because BG stopped logging on and KN/SBI had nothing else to do.
3. Imagine this situation: you are red, and attempting to flip a T3 blue SMC which is being defended by a big blue zerg. They kill you, you respawn and regroup. During this time a green zerg hits Garri. Do you go to defend it? Regardless of how much they say they care about fights and not about ppt, very few commanders don't go. They could just ignore garri and go back and fight the blue zerg in SMC, but they don't. Why? Because they cared.
4. For good measure: if the score is very close come the last few skirmishes of the week, people generally play, and they play a lot. I was in one such zerg, the commander had been tagged for over six hours (!), and it wasn't just him, when we fought the other zerg he would be like "here's their tag, kill him, make him go to sleep". Clearly the other tag had also been tagged for hours.
Why would people say they don't care when they care? I'd say there are two reasons. The first is social pressure. Somehow people have gotten the idea that it's a sign of prestige to say they don't care. Here for example is something I saw not so long ago. We were red, and we had a T3 Mendon's + T3 SMC. One zerg hits SMC, we defend it. While we're doing that, another zerg hits Mendon's. This guy scouting Mendon's calls it. He calls it for long time, but we're fighting at SMC, so cannot respond. He complains we weren't responding for several minutes. Then we wipe the zerg at SMC just before the walls go down, and he says the wall's down and the tower's gone. I didn't believe him and went to Mendon's anyway, saw the Lord was still 100%, and called it. Rest of our server arrived and defended Mendon's. Afterwards I told him if he keeps making false calls people will stop believing him. He responded indignantly with "well I don't care about ppt, I only care about fights". I guess the irony of saying that immediately after complaining we weren't defending our ppt was lost on him.
The second is that losing sucks. Nobody likes to lose. However because it's a competitive format, someone is going going to lose some of the time. Sometimes that T3 objective just cannot be defended. If that happens, it's much easier to say "I don't care about ppt" (and thereby implying that one didn't lose, since you got what you want in spite of it) than to acknowledge one has been defeated.
As for "even if people tell you otherwise" - here's another example from not so long ago. We're losing the match. Guy says who cares, we'd rather be in T2 than T1. Next week we're in T2, he doesn't even log on to play, because there's nobody to fight. Did he really want to be in T2 instead of T1, now? He _said_ he did. Do you believe him?
Here's an example of genuine "not caring". Suppose there's a guild that uses only Sylvari characters. Do you switch to your own Sylvari characters, or mount a "Charr vs Sylvari" style GvG? I doubt anyone does. It's because people don't care.
tl; dr: people say they don't care about the score, but their actions indicate they do.
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Yes, and my experience is people who say they don't care about the score actually care about the score. That's why if they log on to see they've been wiped off the map they log off quickly too (I clearly remember this happened to SoR in season 1 of WvW), if a T3 objective gets attacked they will come to defend instead of fight whoever is in front of them, etc.
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We queue unranked and vote for Spirit Watch each time it comes up. If no Spirit Watch, I'm happy to vote for a map of your choice (if you have any preference).
I don't mind what skill level you have - if anything the worse you are, the better (since in my experience it makes the queue go faster and the game easier to win).
I'm NA and can't queue on EU.
Message me.
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> @"Hannelore.8153" said:
> > @"Jeydra.4386" said:
> > > @"Grimjack.8130" said:
> > > Tempest is actually much worse as a 3rd traitline than Water or Fire or Air or Arcane, however Warhorn skills are BUSTED, if you did a Staff Core Ele Vs a Staff Tempest itd be VERY close.
> >
> > Tried it, Staff Tempest still does more damage than Staff Core Ele by about 5%. Which is ironic really, since it's Overload Fire + Transcendental Tempest + the occasional Overload Air vs. the entire Air trait line.
> >
> > > @"Hannelore.8153" said:
> > > Name one advantage a Tempest has over Core Ele besides extra Stunbreak.Why do you think nearly everyone plays Weaver, which is basically a better version of Core and better than Tempest in every way except maybe support?
> >
> > Access to shouts, Warhorn skills, and overloads. Now it's your turn. Name one advantage Core Ele has over Tempest except the ability to trait a third non-elite specialization traitline. Why do you think nobody plays core Ele?
> >
> > I really don't get statements like this, or "If the tempest doesn't use the overloads, he is just a core elementalist with a wasted specialization." It's as though people don't realize that being a Tempest also provides things other than overloads.
>
> I've played Elementalist as main for half a decade, but it doesn't sound like you have. Its true, that most people play Tempest or Weaver, but that's the same for all subclasses, and Overloads provide Stunbreak in competitive modes which is essential. But if you removed that, you'd see Tempest far less, and most players are already running Weaver because it has its own advantages.
>
> Here's Core Elementalist meta builds:
> https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_Staff_DPS WvW, rating 4.0
> https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_S/F_Fresh_air_roamer WvW, rating 4.3
> https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_Dagger/x_Fresh_Air PvE Open World, rating 4.0
You realize metabattle features builds that aren't ideal, but deserve to be listed anyway because F2P players don't have access to elite specializations, right?
Also, as long as you want to boast about how long you've been playing Elementalist as main, I'll tell you that I've been playing Elementalist as main since release - or 1.5 decades if you include GW1.
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> @"Grimjack.8130" said:
> Tempest is actually much worse as a 3rd traitline than Water or Fire or Air or Arcane, however Warhorn skills are BUSTED, if you did a Staff Core Ele Vs a Staff Tempest itd be VERY close.
Tried it, Staff Tempest still does more damage than Staff Core Ele by about 5%. Which is ironic really, since it's Overload Fire + Transcendental Tempest + the occasional Overload Air vs. the entire Air trait line.
> @"Hannelore.8153" said:
> Name one advantage a Tempest has over Core Ele besides extra Stunbreak.Why do you think nearly everyone plays Weaver, which is basically a better version of Core and better than Tempest in every way except maybe support?
Access to shouts, Warhorn skills, and overloads. Now it's your turn. Name one advantage Core Ele has over Tempest except the ability to trait a third non-elite specialization traitline. Why do you think nobody plays core Ele?
I really don't get statements like this, or "If the tempest doesn't use the overloads, he is just a core elementalist with a wasted specialization." It's as though people don't realize that being a Tempest also provides things other than overloads.
Invisibility has Gotten out of Hand
in World vs. World
Posted
> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > @"Jeydra.4386" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Jeydra.4386" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Jeydra.4386" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Jeydra.4386" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the *worst* possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is *already weak*. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.
> > > > > > > > What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly *underpowered*. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.
> > > > >
> > > > > The thing is, if the thief is stupid enough to use in-combat stealth, thats one of the few ways that you can kill a thief. He is pretty shields down if he does that.
> > > >
> > > > That doesn't answer any of the points that were raised, unless you are arguing that Thief is broken but stealth isn't.
> > >
> > > To answer your points, you misplayed because you failed to kill him when he gave you the perfect opportunity to kill him with stealth. And nah, neither stealth nor thief are broken. Not being able to be killed isnt worth much if youre also not able to kill. Thief can only draw.
> >
> > Why don't you say he misplayed by giving me the opportunity to kill him then. You're really grasping at straws now, because the moment you acknowledge that Thieves cannot be killed unless they allow themselves to be killed, you back up my argument. Not going to respond anymore, because you are patently not getting it (e.g. by saying that you cannot interact with Weavers and Mirages, which indicates you don't understand and/or don't want to understand what "interact" means.)
> >
> > Thief is stupidly broken and needs to be nerfed into oblivion.
>
> Man these threads these days. Dude u really need to l2p, u sound like a noob who's butt hurt cuz thieves farm u, especially on ur last statement of which ur making towards a class that got the job tittle **decap bot and +1 for a reason**. This whole BS gbage players post about a thief no being able to be killed unless it wants to is utter nonsense spoken by players who want easy kills instead of learning how to fight the class, god forbid other classes had to learn ALL the other classes and their common rotations to be effective, u guys cant learn one, seriously. Sure thief can use it's high mobility and access to stealth to avoid all engagements or leave a fight as soon as things get slightly dangerous but guess what? That thief will contribute very little to its team and the match. If a thief is +1ing and getting a lot of kills on u than u need to learn map awareness and not just spam ur cc. Aoe condies properly placed in the right spots are disastrous for a thief, hell I drop em and or cleave in their fields knowing their there to stacking stealth, works so often. Cc is so high in this game smart use of them combined with teefs squishyness makes quick burst kills on em easy. Most thieves are pretty predictable and stealth actually gives little defensive protection unless used from out of sight range because most leave tells on the ground and a thief can take all forms of damage while stealth'd, just cant be targeted except by channels. All classes have great defensive skills to basically nullify BS if used properly. Anyway this thread is a waste of time as the rework ur all wanting to stealth will never come, 1 cuz it's too late into the games life and 2 cuz most of u posters are clear in ur bias against the class and make suggestions that are unrealistic and would only serve to kill the class and cause a large number of players to quit the game which is already suffering a very low population. No ones left due to thief and if they had they would found something else to cry about and leave regardless.
Lol? You realize this is the WvW forum right?
For the record, I do not think Thieves are broken in sPvP.