Kathkere.3068

Why would you feel "inferior" for liking the story? I'm sure one can criticize the story of GW2 objectively through one narrative theory or other, but at the end of the day if you get enjoyment from the story then that enjoyment is legitimate.

> @"Rasimir.6239" said:

> > @"Kathkere.3068" said:

> > I think it's worth looking at what early WoW (and Classic WoW), as well as what SWTOR did that caused people to actively talk to strangers in the game. In early WoW and in SWTOR I never had to apply to a guild, I was always invited by people I got to know by playing with them first.

> To me GW2 makes socializing much easier than older MMOs I played ever did, exactly because it does not force me to group up with people. I'm the kind of person that likes to stop and smell the roses, not race towards goals, and I found a lot of my in-game friends by casually grouping up for content and getting to talk to and know people. It's easier to find "my kind" of people in this game precisely because it does not herd you into specific content avenues the way I've experienced in other games.

I'm not one to race towards a goal either and I too like to stop and smell the roses, but you are correct in that people are different. Personally I _need_ a reason to talk to people, else I won't. Which is why the design of GW2's content made me talk to absolutely no one aside from the people I already knew going into the game. It gets kinda awkward whenever you try to strike a conversation with a stranger as you don't really have anything to talk about.

When I tried Classic World of Warcraft I was afraid that all talk about the social nature of early WoW had been hyperbolic and that we, as a playerbase, had since moved far beyond that. But in my experience with Classic World of Warcraft I did actually start talking more to others. Communication became a lot more relaxed, in comparison to modern MMORPGs. SWTOR was also different. There's a quote from a developer Q&A of SWTOR from before the game was released and it's a quote I really like. They were asked if PVP content was going to be cross server, to which the developers responded:

_No. We believe that fostering rivalries and memorable encounters with recognizable players are important in building a good PvP community on a server. We suspect cross-server queuing compromises these key tenets._

(source: http://www.swtor.com/info/news/news-article/20110916)

I liked that answer when I first read it but I liked it even more over time as it proved to be absolutely true. In World of Warcraft, rivalries would spark in World PVP as that is where you would find and fight familiar faces (and these encounters would often trigger banter on the online forums from the participants). In contrast, in the instanced battlegrounds you would be grouped up with a bunch of strangers taken from an enormous pool of players, and among those who spoke they were mostly toxic. I never befriended anyone in all my years playing instanced PVP in World of Warcraft. Meanwhile, in SWTOR, I made friendships that still lasts to this day even though we don't play together. It wasn't necessarily that I was speaking during a game of PVP, but I proved to be a solid player and I wasn't toxic. Similarly minded people would band together over time. It was truly a wonderful experience, and it would never had happened had SWTOR had cross server PVP.

I envy you for finding GW2 to be a platform that makes socialization easy! That has not been my experience in the slightest, unfortunately.

Very relatable post. I started playing in early 2013 and I levelled my first character to max level. Then interest kind of fizzled out as I didn't really know what to do and the people I played with moved back to older MMOs. Then I would return around the beginning of the living world and I truly enjoyed the living world at first, but I was always very alone and the game itself did not really encourage communication, and I'm not one to blindly join a random guild in the hopes of making friends. People might argue that this is a personal problem, and it is, but I think it's worth looking at what early WoW (and Classic WoW), as well as what SWTOR did that caused people to actively talk to strangers in the game. In early WoW and in SWTOR I never had to apply to a guild, I was always invited by people I got to know by playing with them first.

But I digress. I returned to GW2 again for about one-two months ago with the intent of actually learning sPvP. When I went from WoW to SWTOR the familiarity of the game mechanics made it easy for me to pick up on how to play SWTOR and, as such, I was good at it from the get-go. This was not the case in GW2. Whenever I tried I felt bombarded with information and I couldn't tell why I was dying. I was a complete and utter scrub and the learning curve seemed too daunting, so I kind of gave up on trying. What's different this time around is that I've accepted the fact that I am a scrub, and so I've managed to enjoy sPvP. I've climbed from the bottom of silver up to bottom of gold, which feels like a personal achievement. However, other areas of the game still eludes me. I managed to finally level up a crafting profession to 500 and I found the whole experience to be unnecessarily complicated. There are a billion different resources in GW2 and I don't think it's indicative of good game design if you have to /wiki every single one of them to know what they do. The same goes with currencies... so many currencies.

So yeah... I'm having fun with sPvP right now and I hope it'll last... because the MMORPG-scene right now is really, really dry. :(

Butt capes/flaps are awesome and I would wear one in real life if I hadn't stood out from the crowd so much doing so.

Admittedly, there are a lot of them..! (not irl, but in the game)

My issue with the hammer is that it feels so clunky. Including the Symbol of Protection into the weapon chain feels off. Skill 5 feels extremely gimmicky and could easily be replaced by something else. In my opinion, what I would like to see is:

1: a weapon chain that has a consistent attack timer on all 3 attacks. Remove the Symbol of Protection.

2: Remove skill 5 entirely and replace it by a ranged ability (900 range perhaps) that spawns a Symbol of Protection in addition to doing something else, be it AoE damage or incur a 1 second daze to the targets struck or something. Imagine a Thor-like animation, raising the hammer and calling down wrath from the sky.

Although number 5 could pretty much be anything and I'd be satisfied, I was just playing let's pretend with my wishes. As long as the weapon chain remains the way it is I don't think I'll ever be able to enjoy 2H Hammer. It's just too clunky.

It would be nice if you could have more than one character tab open. I find it very bothersome that you have to swap tab when you fiddle with your spec if you want to see how certain talents affects your stats. Having everything be in one window is a bit cumbersome!

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> We havent achieved that goal at any time in Gw2.. we've just delayed it temporarily.

> I wouldn't call it a loop of apocalypse stories.. it's more like one very long one with some twists and turns thrown in.

That's fair, but personally it's not my cup of tea. Also, I was speaking in broader, more general terms when it comes to narrative power creep in MMORPGs. I disagree that you need a doomsday plot to keep things interesting, though I'll concede that a different path might be too late/not feasible for GW2.

> @"Dustfinger.9510" said:

> We aren't. We're just high up there. We didn't slay 3 elder dragons, we were involved in the slaying of 3 elder dragons. We lead a group of heroes who have repeatedly shown that they have other priorities other than the group we lead. And often leave group business to handle what must be more important to them. i.e.: Logan wouldn't help topple his queen. You're taking examples of being high up and using it to extrapolate an illogical extreme.

The problem is that the narrative puts us in this "leader" role. It inherently creates a massive chasm of ludonarrative dissonance as reason dictates that we can't all be the leader of this pact. An MMORPG ought to utilize the world for telling the narrative. For instance, rather than having it be the player leading faction X to victory against faction Y, the narrative could simply be this: faction X won against faction Y, and throughout this conflict the player could choose to help out faction X. In an MMORPG the player should be a small part of a greater whole, not _the_ greater whole.

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > Ive looked into all the MMOS that id be interested in on the market and they all fall short compared to what this one has.

>

> Except for better stories and deeper RPG immersion...

I agree with this one. For years I've struggled to truly get into GW2. I've always thought that ArenaNet's model was superior to any other MMO on the market; no subscription fee, no gear disparity in PVP, no increased level cap/item levels... GW2 looks stellar and the controls are super slick in comparison to other MMOs.

However, I'll agree that the game does fall short when it comes to story and, not necessarily RPG immersion, but narrative immersion. Full disclaimer: I've actually not played through all the story content so I'm basing this on what I've seen from the original game and from the first few bits of Heart of Thorns. GW2 doesn't split their player base into two factions which, in itself, is a good thing! However, the narrative tends to feel very black and white. We are all the good guys fighting the big bad, all the time. The PVP takes place in an area with little to no lore (from what I've been able to find in the game); when you ask a mist warrior what the mist war is, he basically says "it's a war that's going on in the mists". PVP is fun, but the narrative context is extremely weak. There's no narrative consequence to losing a battle. It's just a battle for the sake of battle. In contrast, PVP in WoW and SWTOR gets a bit more exciting. I'd argue that this is especially the case in SWTOR as that game doesn't have any cross servers, so rivalries and bickering between the factions tend to crop up, which is a wonderful thing to see in an MMORPG.

I also don't really like the "Living World" story content. The name is not very apt as all the story content takes place in a prescripted instance that separates you from the _actual_ living world; the one you share with all the other players. SWTOR did the same thing, but I'd argue that SWTOR had higher quality to their storytelling. No, when it comes to narrative I think the original World of Warcraft actually did the best job. Consider events like the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj where your whole server got involved. This created a near infinite amount of mini narratives for each player that was involved. The player in the original WoW was not the main protagonist, they were one tiny cog in a much greater machinery. In GW2 and SWTOR we're being told by the game that we're the most important character in the game and that kind of goes against the key tenets of an MMORPG.

An alternative solution could be:

Sword of the Just

Hammer of the Wise

Bow of the Truthful

Not saying that my suggestion is superior to that of the OPs, but it's important to consider alternatives. The most important thing, however, is that this glaring issue gets fixed ASAP!

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> Gw2 was always setup as an apocalypse story, Evil dragons end of the world etc.

> You can't just wipe that mid way and say eh lets do something else.. wouldn't make any sense.

But then you get into a loop of never ending apocalypses; the "narrative power creep" I mentioned. I think it's very much possible to "reset" the narrative. World of Warcraft did as much with their Mists of Pandaria expansion. You had just defeated Deathwing The Destroyer and what followed was a story about Horde and Alliance colonization in a mystical new land. I thought it was a very refreshing change of pace, although that expansion would derail a bit as well towards the end as well.

It's inevitable that I create backgrounds for my characters as I continue playing them. It adds another layer of immersion, figuring out what their personalities are and what motivates them as I explore their fictional worlds. In World of Warcraft and Star Wars: The Old Republic, this has lead to some lenghty documents detailing various character backgrounds, but I haven't done such a thing for GW2. Partly because of my poor grip of the lore and world building of Tyria, and partly because I haven't played GW2 as much as I've played the other two. That said, I've still developed the characters in my head, and I figure I'll share the background of one of them as I think it's kind of simple and charming!

Enter Osuvi!


Osuvi is my Asuran ranger. She's a student of biology with zoology as her primary focus. She wrote a doctoral dissertation revolving around the study of the suidae animal branch, which is how she befriended her lovely sidekick on the picture above: the warthog Growbor. She took an interest in boars and pigs early on as she noticed that, contrary to what their appearance might suggest, they possessed a level of intelligence rarely seen among quadrupeds. Growbor became the focus of her research as he proved capable of understanding complex commands and was able to use simple tools to complete various tasks. When she presented her findings she was largely mocked by other Asurans. Some thought her findings ludicrous and biased, and others mocked her simply because she had tamed a wild pig and housed it as a pet. She had had a burning passion for her research and she was proud of what she had discovered, so she was devastated by what she considered an unprofessional examination of her work by her peers.

After the academic kerfuffle among her own people she decided to try and share her findings with human scholars instead, but found even less interest among them. It dawned on her that part of the problem was that pigs were viewed as filthy and unclean animals. People already had an established perception of pigs and any claim that countered that perspective was brushed off as something unserious. After three long years of study, Osuvi found herself on the brink of giving up on her research for good. She figured she'd have to find a new subject matter to research if she wanted to be taken seriously. It was with heavy heart that she decided to release Growbor back into the wild... but Growbor was a smart warthog. When she tried to push him away, he'd keep following her. Regardless of what she did, he could tell that Osuvi was upset, even if he didn't understand why. It didn't matter what she tried, he wouldn't leave her side. At the end of the day, she'd fall asleep, snuggled up right next to him. Growbor was a truer friend to her than anyone else had ever been. She found renewed determination for her academical pursuit thanks to the loyalty of Growbor.

Eventually she did manage to publish her findings: A Method for Measuring the Intelligence Quotient of Animals: an In-Depth Analysis of the Complex Behaviours of the Suidae Family.

> @"bluecheeseplate.2753" said:

> This is my issue with most MMOs I've played. Apparently I can defeat gods, quest for thousands of people and literally save the world four times, but people don't even acknowledge my existence. There's a massive disconnect there that doesn't sit well with me lore-wise, like I'm investing all this time for nothing. GW2 and BnS are the only two MMOs I've played that subverts this, and GW2 does a far better job of it. As the Commander, I actually feel like I'm not just along for the ride- my character's actions has an impact on the story, and are _remembered_ for once.

>

The problem isn't what the NPCs call you, the problem is that you save the world four times at all. You get into some sort of narrative power creep that eventually ceases to be interesting. You've saved the world four times over and you've defeated demigods and then you accidentally stumble off a cliff in Kessex Hills and die. Is that not also a narrative disconnect? Or what if you happened to get shanked by some no-name pirate? Of course, we don't take death into account when thinking about narrative. If we did, would it really be fair to say that you killed Belsebub the Destroyer of Worlds if Belsebub the Destroyer of Worlds killed you fourteen times over before you killed him?

I'm rambling, but the point of my ramble is to poke fun at the notion of a linear narrative in an MMORPG space. In the absence of a pre-scripted narrative players starts to make their own narrative*. In my opinion, you shouldn't be so concerned about how NPCs addresses you. How do your fellow players address you? Back in 2007-2008 I played World of Warcraft and on my server there was a horde guild that was notorious for ganking people. They had a website where they posted bounties on alliance players they deemed troublesome, and these alliance players earned some fame on the server just because of that. Those players didn't need an NPC to tell them that they were heroes for they were heroes in the eyes of everyone who had fallen prey to that one ganking guild.

Do we really need the narrative threat of an apocalypse in order to keep things interesting? That's just subtext to justify the violence we use to solve the conflict, but you can have subtext that doesn't revolve around the end of the world. Perhaps people ought to see themselves less as the main character and more as "one among many". Sure, you defeated Belsebub the Destroyer of Worlds, but what about the other individuals present, be they players or NPCs. Are they not also worthy of praise? No one mourns the loss of a redshirt, I guess.

*Of course, players will probably create their own narrative even when presented with a pre-scripted narrative. The difference is that you have to suspend your disbelief, for the narrative that the game feeds you with is not truly _your_ narrative. Everyone gets the same narrative, and it might not be the narrative that you want. The original story of GW2 is all about good versus evil and it's more or less impossible to be evil. Does that really match the fantasy of the necromancer class?

I've tried this myself! Haven't succeeded (yet) but it makes for a fun challenge. I think that is kind of its own reward, though I guess I wouldn't complain if they were to put an achievement in the game. However, I do think Zaxares brings up a valid point:

> @"Zaxares.5419" said:

> I wouldn't be against it in theory... But not until the imbalance between high and low ping players in SAB is somehow addressed. A LOT of my deaths in Trib Mode can be attributed to the game server thinking I'm not where my screen is showing me to be.

I personally have few issues with this, but to those that do it could potentially make the achievement an impossibility. (Also, a tip with that lava rock: I typically jump on it and then immediately do a dodge jump. Feels like the safest way to cross!)

Read through the entire thread because I found the OP's fervent defense kind of charming. That said, I'm also in the "locking story behind raids is a bad idea"-camp.

However, I'd like to offer a different perspective. "Story" in MMOs is something that has been handled poorly ever since BioWare started touting about their fourth pillar in their MMORPG: Star Wars the Old Republic. While SWTOR largely failed as an MMORPG, it did have an impact on future games within the genre. A personal, single player story became important, even though it violates the key tenets of what an MMORPG is supposed to be. I appreciated the story in Guild Wars 2, but when I look back at my levelling experience in the beginning of 2013, it's not really the story I recall. It's the memories of exploring the world alongside one of my best friends; finding jump puzzles and learing about one another's classes, meeting strange creatures and just... learning the game! _That's_ the personal story an MMO, not the pre-written story that can never truly be yours.

Going back to SWTOR; I think they did raiding best when the game launched. You had two raids; one where you went to a prison planet to fight an ancient, dangerous being and another one where you fight against a rogue hutt. Both raids were very much part of the story, but in the grand scheme of things they were rather minor events. The narrative context for the first raid was that the Empire and Republic wanted to secure technology to prevent the other faction from getting it. However, it did not take long for SWTOR to walk into the trap of making raids super-relevant. All of a sudden, the raid content became _the_ content that all other content started to revolve around. There's this misconception that bigger = better, and that couldn't be more false, in my opinion. Modern game writers seem to think that the only way to make a narrative interesting is to include some sort of doomsday plot.

Story shouldn't revolve around raiding. Story shouldn't really happen in personal instances separate from the rest of all the players either, in my opinion, but that's not likely to change in this game. No, story should happen in the world and raids ought to complement it. Having cutscenes and dialogues in raids is a sin. It may be interesting the first time around, but raids are designed to be repeatable content. As such, focus should lie on the narrative design of the raid's environment and the bosses within. No dialogue should be necessary, outside of boss barks. The main appeal of killing a raid boss should not be to experience a cutscene or other story beat; no, the main appeal should be to defeat the end boss.

I'll end with one last anecdote:

I started playing WoW at the start of their first expansion, The Burning Crusade. I was rather late to the raiding scene, but I didn't want to join a guild that was already farming Black Temple and Hyjal Summit (the end raids). I wanted to start from the first raid of the expansion! So I joined an up and coming guild and we progressed together. We did manage to beat Hyjal Summit, but we never defeated Illidan (the last boss of Black Temple). I still remember our very last attempt, the night before Wrath of the Lich King was released. We got close, but we failed. For the moment we felt kinda bad about it, but in hindsight I feel rather proud that we managed to get that far at all. In contrast, I joined the raiding scene late in Mists of Pandaria (4th expansion) as well. I did Siege of Orgrimmar via the Looking for Raid tool and I beat Garrosh and got to see the "epic" cutscene at the end... and I felt nothing. It meant absolutely nothing to me that I managed to beat Garrosh. When I later beat him on a more difficult mode, I didn't really feel anything either. So in that respect, I'm 100% with the OP in the sense that some content ought to remain hard for the sake of being hard. If that's not everyone's biscuit, then that's fine. I've not really been all that into raiding since WoW Cataclysm (2011), truth be told, but I still play MMORPGs.

> @"northcharm.9485" said:

> I don't wana be a kill joy but unfortunalty new race just 99% wont happen too much work. For a New Playble race Anet would have to

> 1. create new levels 10-30 story

> 2. Redo personal - Icebrood saga story Voice acting and cutscenes

> 3. redesign the whole current armors avalible and lets be honest they don't even fit charr properly without clipping

> 4. new starter zone and city these arnt too hard to make and are very easly doable

> I mean with all of this its very likely to say anet wont do it as much as you and I want it. Unless Anet makes it so the new race cant do any story prior to the Cantha xpac it just not a possibility esp with the quarantine on right now. Now on the other hand New Legendaires and New Elite specs are a very High Possibility for us to get. I don't see weapons not being locked to Elite specs happening as one of the main reasons for Elite specs is to give accesses to a weapon your class couldn't use before and skills but it would be nice to have some not bound to elite specs.

While I'm also highly skeptical towards the notion of seeing a new race in GW2, I don't think it's impossible. The race would probably have to start at a higher level than the rest, and have a unique story that revolves around the recent story changes rather than the original threat of Zhaitan. I suppose they'd be comparable to Death Knights in World of Warcraft, meaning it would be kind of anachronistic to see them do any post-HoT/PoF content. As for the armor sets, it would depend on how the armors are made. I somehow doubt that Arenanet handcrafts every armor piece for each individual body type, but I could be wrong. If they are, then that presents a huge problem for adding a new race (unless they were to re-use old body types).

That said, I'm not all to keen on the addition of a new race myself. I'd prefer to see more customization options to the ones available. Otherwise, I'm not too picky. New elite specs would be fun to see. My number one wish would be for an Inquisitor elite spec for guardians; a rogue/paladin archetype. I'm not sure if it fits in the Guild Wars lore, but one can still wish, eh? Other than that, it'd be nice to explore a new landscape. I don't think they need to add any new methods of traversal, either, but it's a trend so I wouldn't be surprised if they did. That's about it, for me!

I've not had time to read all the posts, but I like this thread! Here are some of my thoughts:

I voted for daggers! In Dungeons and Dragons (the father of all fantasy RPGs) there's a class called "Inquisitor" that's basically the combination of a Cleric and a Rogue. d20PFSRD describes it as:

_Grim and determined, the inquisitor roots out enemies of the faith, using trickery and guile when righteousness and purity is not enough. Although inquisitors are dedicated to a deity, they are above many of the normal rules and conventions of the church. They answer to their deity and their own sense of justice alone, and are willing to take extreme measures to meet their goals._

Source: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/

Personally, this is a fantasy that I'm a big fan of. I've played several inquisitors through many different pen and paper campaigns. The niche of the inquisitor would be stealth. Perhaps one of the Virtue abilities could allow the Inquisitor to enter stealth mode? Virtue of Courage, for instance. As of this moment, I don't have many ideas for what abilities they could unlock. I mainly want to mention it, as it is a really cool archetype in fantasy RPGs that is all too rarely seen. I do see two problems with the Inquisitor, though!

Firstly, dagger guardian after having gotten dagger warrior? Are they perhaps too similar?

Secondly, stealth and heavy armor might be a strange mix.

For me, personally, none of these two issues is a deal-breaker, but I can see how it would be for some people.

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> * Crossbow/bowgun of sorts: This would be the "1-handed version" of the longbow or shortbow. It could even be equipped in an off-hand.

>

A handheld crossbow would also be an iconic weapon for an Inquisitor :) and it' s a neat idea in general.

[Edit 2020-04-24] Having thought some more about this, I think an off-hand pistol would be fitting as well. The idea of the Inquisitor is a Van Helsing type of character, using faith and guile to hunt down the unholy. As for abilities, if there's one thing Guardians lack it's a solid daze ability which is something the pistol could offer; a medium range interrupt!

As for the virtues, an idea I've had is that each virtue activates a buff for the guardian that alters the number 1 attack on your weapons which could last for about 6-8 seconds. For instance, with sword it could look something like this:

Virtue of Justice buff:

Your attack chain sends out projectiles and the third one in the chain causes burn.

Virtue of Resolve:

A portion of the damage from your attacks restore health. The third attack in the chain causes regeneration for you and your allies.

Virtue of Courage:

For the duration of the buff, your damage is increased by the amount of damage you take. The third attack in the chain causes protection for you and your allies.

It'd be neat if you could combine all three, but if that were to be OP maybe have it so that if you activate one buff, the current one is replaced. This idea is not tied specifically to the Inquisitor idea that I pitched, it's just a neat idea I've had for how the virtues could be different for the next elite specialization.

I usually return to GW2 around the time of the Super Adventure Box. I liked it the first time and I still like it to this day, even though I wish we'd see world 3 and 4 someday. I don't care so much for the rewards as I do about the experience. It's like a gauntlet of colourful and silly jump puzzles. I should hate them, since they break the overall aesthetic of the game, but I don't. I love them!

As for the question:

Q: _What's your favorite level in Super Adventure Box? Is there anything in particular that sets it above the rest it for you?_

W2Z1 is probably my favourite as it is the most balanced level. The worlds prior are a bit too easy for me and the worlds that come after are a bit too long. My problem with W2Z2 is probably the music. It gets very repetitive, more so than any other level.

Q: _Last year, Super Adventure Festival was the first festival to introduce a Weekly Vendor. What new items would you like to see on the Weekly Vendor?_

I've no real opinion, but I'm not sure if I like the concept of a weekly vendor. Won't that just trigger the fear of missing out?

Q: _What sort of new Super Adventure Festival content would you like to see in the future? It's fine to respond "I want a new World, only spend time on that!" but are there other kinds of gameplay or minigames you'd enjoy in the meantime?_

I definitely want to see world 3 and 4 above anything else. That said, when it comes to rewards I kind of wish they'd look less Super Adventure Box-y and more GW2-y. Like, you can have a cool sword that starts to glow but instead of having it be retro blocky, have it just be a sword. As much as I love the Super Adventure Box, I don't really like using the skins (even though I've collected many, _many_ of them!)

That's it! I was saddened to see that the Box hadn't opened today, but it is good to know it hasn't been shut forever. :smiley: