Ferelwing.8463

> @"Fire Attunement.9835" said:

> [Celebrate the Year of the Rat in Divinity's Reach](https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/january-14-2020/).

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Is WvW going to be allowed to get the event reward track unlocked?

> @"Talondir.4965" said:

> I got the AP and the Mastery but when I try to use the Raven Pillar to open the door to exit, it tells me I need to explore some more. I have investigated every body and collected all of the items I can and still can't get out.

Try loading out of this chapter into a previous chapter and then going back and doing it again (that's what some people on the other post have found that works). Anet is aware of the problem and will be putting in a fix.

> @"Aerial Melodies.4938" said:

> I'm unable to get the Ice-Bound achievement to work. All the tooltip says is I need to begin an episode of the Icebrood Saga, which I've done. I've completed both the prologue and the new story. I restarted my game and tried a second playthrough but still nothing. On Reddit when I asked, I was told it pops around the point that you have to touch the raven pillar in the first part of the story, but after trying twice now, nothing has triggered. I submitted a bug report, but has anyone else had this issue or know what could be happening?

>

> For 1 AP I couldn't care less... but for 1 mastery point that is already hard to come by? I want it. :anguished:

There was another person who reported the same thing in a different location on the forum. Anet is aware and looking into it.

> @"Taelac.7036" said:

> Also missing for me. I have completed the story and was able to purchase the portal scroll. (Is there a tome, yet? I didn't see one.) The node is not on any of the tabs on the karma vendor.

>

> I've tried logging to character select and back in, mapping to guild hall and back, and bringing a fresh character who hasn't run the story. Currently trying logging all the way out and back in, may try a -repair. It's a minor disappointment in the scheme of things, but I take pride in getting the new nodes as soon as possible, since I share my home instance with my guild, so it's a little bit of a bummer.

>

> Edit to add: Logging all the way out and back in didn't work. Currently waiting for interminable client -repair.

>

> Edit to add 2: Client stopped responding in the middle of the -repair. Had to end the task and re-start, as much as I didn't want to. And for the sake of completeness, I always wait until the initial patch is fully complete before hitting Play, since I live up on top of the Rocky Mountains, and our internet is still powered by miniature donkeys. At least the -repair seems to be going a bit faster now.

I don't see the node either and I bought the portal scroll as well. I was curious if anyone else saw the book... I started to wonder if those of us who can't see the nodes also don't get to see the books... I've bought both portal scrolls. I've had this happen a couple of times, I thought it was just me...

Honestly, I think it starts with boon share first and how many boons/stacks of boons can be pumped out and then it moves to boon corruption. I can understand in the PVE zones the need for boon and boon corruptions to be used on mobs but in WvW, I think the problem is widespread. Going down to the basics on how many boons should be shared and how much corruption to give would be an excellent start. Basically, there's too much power creep and while that is fine in PVE because the base-line mobs are kinda over-tuned in some places, it's not fine when playing PvP or WvW.

A meta I would be interested in (even if it's a pain) would be one where every class had a place in group raids. Currently, some classes are over-represented and other classes just aren't welcome. While there is the option of inviting scouts/roamers into squads for participation, in my experience only some commanders actually do this. Generally, if they're not with the commander then they're not welcome. Some classes just aren't welcome in squads period because they have very little to offer. I would love to see that change. I think a truly balanced meta would give each class something to offer to the group as well as options to roam/scout.

I agree with some of the posters about the FB issue. I play a lot of Firebrand, and sometimes I'm staying in game way past when I want to because the need for stability in groups There need to be either other classes who offer it or perhaps we could introduce food that can give stability or something else (potions etc). A bandaid to the problem would be offering food, as in a new one created by Grandmaster chef's or something.

Also, one of my biggest complaints is the perma--stealth and that so few classes have the ability to break it. Having the traps is practically useless in certain maps (mostly the red map). Nothing is more annoying than a thief/mesmer running all over your base when you have a full squad and can't isolate them to kill them (admittedly this is more a red-map thing than any other map). Either make it so you can drop more than one trap or do something about the perma-stealth.

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> This whole thread is just one big kitten lol

> Its so fun seeing ppl cry about scrappers, necros whine about their shades, ppl bashing on warrior, eles saying that they get oneshot by everything and their grandma.

>

> And the patch isnt even out yet, thats the funniest part, why cant you just wait for it to roll out?

>

>

> > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> >

> > > In my experience, having played both and many other's, Scourge takes a lot more skill than Holo and such.

> > > Not in terms of skill activations, but because Necro just doesn't have many good tools there aside from damage, so just in terms of positioning in which regard it's probably the most tactics intensive thing to play.

> > >

> > > While other classes get plentiful get out of jail free cards, be it full directional blocks, Invulnerability, burst movement, blocks, stealth and on and on, coupled with ridiculous resustain, when you get focused/stunlocked as Necro, you are dead.

> > > So rather than being able to rather brainlessly charge in with those tools and spam CC while nuking everything down, you already needed to position yourself incredibly carefully and kite around to not get deleted instantly.

> > >

> > > Shade around Scourge was the bare minimum of counter pressure available should let's say a Thief shadowstep on you to start tearing you apart, along with pretty much everything else having vastly superior mobility to catch you off guard.

> > >

> > > To say Scourges need to use their brain just now is both ignorant and wrong.

> > > They had to before, but now there isn't really anything to use their brain on left, as when they get jumped, they are just straight up dead with no counterplay.

> > >

> > > To suggest the Scourge could just "tactically" place down a Shade to stand in while attacking from range with how much a Scourge needs to kite around terrain and be in constant movement is a joke too. And by the time someone jumps on a Scourge, they will be CC'ed and dead before they can even think about placing a Shade.

> > >

> > > Seeing Necros on the enemy team was already satisfying to me, knowing I could just easily tear them apart as long as I baited them to waste the Shroud around them. Now Scourge is just a genuine free kill.

> >

> >

> > I have to agree here. I have played all of the classes and I quit playing Scourge because there are no re-positioning tools, if you screw up even once you are dead and useless. I have more deaths on my scourge than on all of my other toons combined. So I just stopped playing scourge and moved to classes where I could re-position quickly. It is absolutely not a face roll class in WvW. In fact I would argue that because of it's lack of mobility it is the least "face roll" of the classes that I've played. I agree that the condi spam and absolute zone control provided by Scourge was a real pain especially in close quarters but it was a harder class to play.

>

> >

>

> And to you i can just say that you are blatantly lying, take a look at fleshwurm, spectral walk, sand swell and finally trail of anguish, those are all repositioning tools, 3 of them being teleports

.... You return back to your "initial position" not to a different position ie: the direction your entire zerg went to vs say when I play ele and I just mist form directly to where my team went or as a firebrand where I use merciful intervention to shadowstep to my closest ally and provide "healing". Spectral walk is a tether, it takes me precisely back to where I started from when I initially cast it. While I suppose on a "technicality" you could call it a re positioning tool, and under some circumstances it could be useful.. IE: I cast it before the zerg starts the fight and then I use it's ability because my zerg ran towards the exact location I was when I cast it. Because it only takes you to the precise place you were when you cast it, in reality it's not a particularly useful one. Fleshwurm is the same skill as spectral walk, I guess it could be used if you're doing jumping puzzles? In WvW though, spectral walk and fleshwurm are super telegraphed and easy to counter. So why you'd recommend that? Not sure, also why Necro has 2 of the exact same mechanic I have no idea either, but there ya go. Sand swell, is a short range portal that doesn't even compare to any other portal, I could see a basic argument for using it but due to the short range of it and the whole "condi-spam" problem of other classes plus the massive aoe's (which scourges contribute to) again, it's not really as viable except when you're running to somewhere. Yes, it allows short "re positioning" but it has to be within a certain range and when you're in a zerg you're rarely running it, you use trail of anguish instead because it offers stab and speed. Out of all the skills mentioned only trail of anguish is really useful.

But yeah sure, I guess on a technicality you could remotely call the other two "teleports". Do I use them? Did I use them? Not really because I was usually dead before then but again that boils down to my lack of skill at proper positioning when playing a necro vs being able to do the same as my firebrand or ele. I have better skills and more leeway with those two classes. I spent a lot of time dead as a necro. My experience of course isn't the only experience out there and I'm 100% sure there are necro's out there who did not have the problems I did but, saying a class is a "faceroll" class because it has AOE spam ignores the skill of the people who had to focus on their rotations and positioning. Scourge isn't an "easy beginner class" to play in wvw unless perhaps you've already played classes that had even more tricky rotations and positioning issues... I suppose if that's your experience then perhaps I could see it being "easy" or "faceroll".

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> In my experience, having played both and many other's, Scourge takes a lot more skill than Holo and such.

> Not in terms of skill activations, but because Necro just doesn't have many good tools there aside from damage, so just in terms of positioning in which regard it's probably the most tactics intensive thing to play.

>

> While other classes get plentiful get out of jail free cards, be it full directional blocks, Invulnerability, burst movement, blocks, stealth and on and on, coupled with ridiculous resustain, when you get focused/stunlocked as Necro, you are dead.

> So rather than being able to rather brainlessly charge in with those tools and spam CC while nuking everything down, you already needed to position yourself incredibly carefully and kite around to not get deleted instantly.

>

> Shade around Scourge was the bare minimum of counter pressure available should let's say a Thief shadowstep on you to start tearing you apart, along with pretty much everything else having vastly superior mobility to catch you off guard.

>

> To say Scourges need to use their brain just now is both ignorant and wrong.

> They had to before, but now there isn't really anything to use their brain on left, as when they get jumped, they are just straight up dead with no counterplay.

>

> To suggest the Scourge could just "tactically" place down a Shade to stand in while attacking from range with how much a Scourge needs to kite around terrain and be in constant movement is a joke too. And by the time someone jumps on a Scourge, they will be CC'ed and dead before they can even think about placing a Shade.

>

> Seeing Necros on the enemy team was already satisfying to me, knowing I could just easily tear them apart as long as I baited them to waste the Shroud around them. Now Scourge is just a genuine free kill.

I have to agree here. I have played all of the classes and I quit playing Scourge because there are no re-positioning tools, if you screw up even once you are dead and useless. I have more deaths on my scourge than on all of my other toons combined. So I just stopped playing scourge and moved to classes where I could re-position quickly. It is absolutely not a face roll class in WvW. In fact I would argue that because of it's lack of mobility it is the least "face roll" of the classes that I've played. I agree that the condi spam and absolute zone control provided by Scourge was a real pain especially in close quarters but it was a harder class to play.

I admit, I played Blood Scourge and I wasn't good at positioning. I managed to live longer and play better as Tempest and FB because of the ability to re-position Scourge/Necro have no re-positioning tools, if you are not immediately in the right place you are dead.

I also agree that the insane amounts of scourges with tons and tons of shades was a pain because of the zone control they offered to WvW and we all agreed that something needed to change. But, I am sad that instead of these changes being a WvW only set they are going to hit PVE as well. I am also disappointed that instead of compensating the Necro for taking away sustain (again) by adding re-positioning to the kit they are taking a class that has to think about placement and positioning and add more "think about whether you want to place things and whether or not you can move fast enough to avoid the oncoming zerg".

Playing Necro in PVE however is fun, but it has traditionally been unwelcome in most late game groups (raids/fractals etc). It was nice to finally be considered "helpful" in the late game content and I am sad to find out that the class is going to no longer be useful in late game PVE anymore. I really do think it's time for GW2 to start recognizing that PVE and WvW/sPvP want different things than PVE. They need to separate it and they need to really focus on what each class is meant to do then optimize it for that vs playing whack a mole.

> I wasn't too fussed about these changes before and nore am I now. The only comment I have to give goes beyond these proposed changes. I am not a fan of resurrection skills like Life because they create snowball effects with inherent cross-scale balance issues (ie., making it harder for the small to engage the large). However, from a class perspective I think you should be careful with the Mesmer class overall because there have been negative kitten in quite alot of places and recent patches and they risk falling out of roles in different modes. With future changes to this class I think you need to sit down and find a clearer path for what you want to do, what you want the class to do and so forth. It is becomming very bland and you keep cutting back on that bland. Think more about what you want it to do and adress its balance in line with

I just wanted to come on and agree with the general sentiment here. I think the biggest problem that WvW is having currently when it comes to balance is that the balance team really needs to take a look at what they think each class/spec should be doing and how they work with the other class/specs. They should then be spending their time creating a space for that AND working around that overall picture. IE: If you created a class you intended to be a support/utility class, then focus on making that support/utility the focus and give it the synergy needed to work with the classes that it is intended to compliment. If you make a damage class that you intend for it to pump out tons of damage then make it so that the damage that it does has it's synergies with the utility/tank classes. Taking each class separately and not viewing the whole picture as a large scale group has been where the problems lie. The classes and elite specs should have their synergies well defined and if you are releasing different utility/damage classes per expansion then be certain to make sure that each of the classes whether they are tank, utility or damage each have their roles defined and their synergies coordinated.

Right now it sort of looks and feels like everything being done is reactionary vs by design. The look and feel of each elite spec doesn't feel like it's designed around a type of synergy but instead to allow classes to wield a weapon that was missing from their core class. Don't get me wrong, I love the elite specs and find them fun to play but it feels like more time should have been taken in determining how each of these specs would interact with each other, in each of the different game modes and what that elite spec was expected to do in a group.

I would personally love to see dev's start discussing which specs are meant to fill which roles and how best to make that happen. Give each spec viable and defined roles that they are intended to fit into. The "jack of all trades, master of none" box isn't a good guide when it comes to balancing and having PvP and WvW means balancing. I think that sitting down and defining what each spec's role is supposed to be then balancing that spec towards the intended play-pattern of that spec would help ease a lot of the frustration in WvW and PvP modes. If you want to give each elite spec two options for play-pattern that's fine too but then there needs to be discussion on how best to express those options and what the trades will be for choosing them. Each spec should have it's own specific identity and it's own specific niche it's meant to fill in a group setting complete with an optimization that gives it that space to succeed. The system is amazing for the amount of creativity it creates but the problem is that if the entirety of the class isn't taken into account as well as it's over-lap/synergy with the other classes/possible builds. Then you're going to continue to have a problem with balance. You won't be able to please everyone (obviously) but if you're going to have a situation where players face off against other players then it's in your best interests to decide what elite spec is supposed to offer what to each group and then make sure that is viable for that elite spec.

If you want to have each class/spec continue in the Master of None category then the headache of WvW and PvP will continue. In many cases it would make sense to separate PvP and WvW gameplay styles from PVE because PVE needs to be more flexible, but WvW and PvP need roles to be better defined.

Currently, from what I've experienced so far most specs feel a bit all over the place without a clear identity that shapes what they are supposed to do in a group. While that leaves room for creativity it also means that balance often feels haphazard and frustrating for everyone (I suspect it's just as frustrating for dev's).

TLDR: The balance team needs to take each of the Elite Specs and Core builds together as a whole and define for themselves what each of these specs/cores are expected to do in group play. Then optimize their power based on the intended play pattern for the elite specs/core builds. You can tweak the damage ratios/frustrating aspects of the specs as you go but each spec really does need a clearly defined role, it does not need to be nor should it be able to do everything in PvP or WvW.

I can see the need in PVE but PvP and WvW have different needs.

I want 181 if it's still open! Ferelwing.8463 (NA server)

I thought it was just me... I have 2 screens. I have wondered if perhaps that's part of the problem..

> @"Joshhh.2076" said:

> You can already see the approximate rank of your enemies with the rank titles (assuming you don't use simple nameplates). [server] Bronze Assaulter, for example, tells you the enemy is around rank 200. And yes, in fight people will sometimes focus low rank people expecting a free bag.

I always go for the higher level player first then switch to the lower level ones.

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> Just a form of elitism imo so I don't even think its a QoL thing. Something to make ppls kitten just a bit bigger. As stated already many times, there's wayyyyyy more important things to look into than this.

>

> But whatever people need to make them feel superior, to each their own. MANY of those with really high ranks only k trained EotM to get the rank, so having a high rank really loses value due to these people (same that use bots or win trading to get ranks in PvP and get on leaderboard....the leaderboard loses value)

>

> This is all just imo ofc

Nah, I'd like to know who the enemy is going to focus in a zerg. I know that when we see a higher level rank on the enemy team we will immediately turn and focus said higher ranked player. After they're dead then we will go for the rest because they're usually split up and running away at that point. Being able to see the same ranks on my side would help me know who the enemy is likely to try to focus on and be ready to withstand said attack then counter it. For me it's about having added information, add in that if you know someone next to you is a much lower rank then you, you have different expectations than you would have of someone who is a much higher rank then you. It'd be kinda nice to have a separate ranking system for "class" so that if you're new to playing wvw with a specific class your teammates will know it and be able to recognize it. For me ranking systems are about setting expectations.

> @"Urud.4925" said:

> > @"wanya.1697" said:

> > if you want to know other players wvw rank

> > all you need to do is party up

> > you can see it that way

> > in squad you can see it for your subgroup when you switch view to party mode instead of grid

> >

> >

>

> ^

> On the other hand... if you were able to see the rank of your enemies, wouldn't you turn upon the weakest one? I don't play much WvW, and honestly I don't care about my/others rank, but, wouldn't this cause more grieving for the more casual players that are still trying to catch up with the others?

You can see the enemy ranks... Always.. Most of us actually start going for the highest ranked person first because the lower ranks will generally split back or run away if you rush for the highest ranked player.

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

> > > > > > > > > > > I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.

> > > > > > > > > > > The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters _and_ changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. **I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.**

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yeah well, you can "roam" in the open world PvE on literally anything. Raids are organized cooperative play for a larger number of players, it only make sense to compare it to WvW squad play. GvG or zerging, in either case the meta is very restrictive.

> > > > >

> > > > > Umm... Roaming in WvW means something completely different than it does in PVE. Roaming means going out and running into other enemies whose builds you won't know till the encounter starts. Skill, build etc can determine whether you make it out (knowing your escapes etc). Open World? You don't need defensive stats and you're actually punished for taking them.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'd say Zerging is the only time it gets restrictive and it completely depends on the guilds/servers etc but even then, PUG's don't care as much and some guilds encourage their members to try different builds out so we can optimize towards what we're trying to do. I have lots of builds as a result.

> > > >

> > > > I'm well aware what does "roaming" stand for in WvW, even I don't actively do it. The point is, it makes no sense to compare highly organized to (almost) unorganized play in terms of meta variance. Obviously the unorganized one will be much more diverse. But a much more sensible comparison would be organized vs organized, as both game modes feature this. And then you see the same type of restrictive meta in both.

> > >

> > > If you really think that the minmaxing of pve raiding against an AI from snowcrows can be compared to the blatantly laughable "metabattle" wvw builds against human opponents, then you are probably ignorant about what wvw is about, zerging or no zerging.

> >

> > And if you think WvW zerging compares to the actual skill and even playing field provided by SPvP it's blatantly laughable.

>

> WvW, especially roaming wvw, comes waaaay closer to spvp than pve comes to wvw zerging, but I would supoose you know that already. Spvp stats are more limited, so in a way, builds should tend to get More predictable. Spvp has its own beauty, it is of course harder to play because of human enemies who can change their playstyle according to the environment, positioning, everything. But then, again, I would supoose you already know that. So, I cant really see the point of that strawman argument you just pulled off, there.

I'm going to have to disagree a little, roaming may be more like sPvP but I'd argue that quite a lot of fight guilds are made up of sPvP ranked players and they're more likely to be the front line/midline of any well composed zerg. sPvP players have an advantage over those coming to WvW from PVE in that they already know which classes to focus immediately and how to avoid some of the incoming damage. Most highly skilled sPvP players only get downed when they get hit with the cc chains that are more common in WvW and not able to be pulled off in sPvP due to numbers. We've all experienced that chain Firebrand pull after pull after pull that lands you right under the bubble and on top of all the scourge circles. If you've got any invulns left you might get out of it but generally speaking you're low enough that Ranger/Holo is more likely to just finish you off. It's more common when defending a base though then in a full on zerg. I'd argue that they're ok in a blob/zerg on the whole but they sometimes get overconfident and get downed/killed (to be fair though anyone can get to that point especially if you've managed not to die in the previous encounters).

Now, I would say that just because sPvP teaches you what to expect from enemy classes it does not overall mean that you're "better than" any of the other types of players. Your skills are specialized to fighting, other people specialize in supporting that. I can pull up to 5 players to me in a fight, I will prioritize those with the highest skill level (or the Commander/Lieutenants) when I'm in a zerg. I don't do it to be mean but I have limited resources/time/choices so I have to prioritize who I can save and who I can't. This kind of play style isn't easy and it's completely different from "fight" oriented play-styles. Positioning is key because if I try this tactic and I'm too close to the enemy everyone I just tried to save will die and so will I. If I'm too far away then I won't be saving anyone. That style of play is hard to pull off but I enjoy it because of the difficulty. I like to play a lot of mid-line support classes because my twitch skills are never going to be peak again so while I know what to do and where to be, if it requires a twitch reaction time I just have to accept my fate. I know how to corrupt boons, where to place shades etc.. If I'm running an ele then I'm running condi cleanses and am that boon support. At the same time I'm also part of the AOE damage that's used for zone control (both my scourge and ele are both supportive and zone control). It doesn't mean I can't fight, just means that I know I can be beaten by someone who is younger and faster than me. If I come across someone like that, I will wisely not take that fight (if I'm not already dead). Strategically retreating and alerting someone with faster reflexes that someone worthy of their skill is around is my general response. I'm not above teaming up with someone else though to take them down (It is about protecting territory after all, but I'm aware of my own limitations).

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > > That is basically the reason you're NOT hearing the issues about shinies from WvW. We have bigger problems to deal with and when those are fixed we will begin addressing the other QoL issues. Right now though, this is a major flaw in the Mode and needs to be Addressed first, we'll talk Shinies after.

> >

> > Well then I'll wait until the shinnies become the bigger problem of WvW and we can see multiple posts of 93 pages about that subject to make it look important, and obviously outside the Raid/dungeon/fractal subforum because it simply doesn't belong here and of course it doesn't belong on this thread. Can we close this "parenthesis" about WvW now and return the thread to the actual topic? At least I will, this is not only off topic, but pointless too.

>

> To be perfectly honest, this thread has seen nothing original after maybe the 15th Page. Everything else is just repeating same stuff over and over again.

Yeah, pretty much.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

> > > > > > > > > > I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.

> > > > > > > > > > The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters _and_ changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. **I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.**

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yeah well, you can "roam" in the open world PvE on literally anything. Raids are organized cooperative play for a larger number of players, it only make sense to compare it to WvW squad play. GvG or zerging, in either case the meta is very restrictive.

> > > >

> > > > Umm... Roaming in WvW means something completely different than it does in PVE. Roaming means going out and running into other enemies whose builds you won't know till the encounter starts. Skill, build etc can determine whether you make it out (knowing your escapes etc). Open World? You don't need defensive stats and you're actually punished for taking them.

> > > >

> > > > I'd say Zerging is the only time it gets restrictive and it completely depends on the guilds/servers etc but even then, PUG's don't care as much and some guilds encourage their members to try different builds out so we can optimize towards what we're trying to do. I have lots of builds as a result.

> > >

> > > I'm well aware what does "roaming" stand for in WvW, even I don't actively do it. The point is, it makes no sense to compare highly organized to (almost) unorganized play in terms of meta variance. Obviously the unorganized one will be much more diverse. But a much more sensible comparison would be organized vs organized, as both game modes feature this. And then you see the same type of restrictive meta in both.

> >

> > If you really think that the minmaxing of pve raiding against an AI from snowcrows can be compared to the blatantly laughable "metabattle" wvw builds against human opponents, then you are probably ignorant about what wvw is about, zerging or no zerging.

>

> And if you think WvW zerging compares to the actual skill and even playing field provided by SPvP it's blatantly laughable.

sPvP has some really good skill. I can tell someone in WvW who is highly ranked in sPvP the skill difference is immediate (and they're my favorite players to keep alive in a blob/zerg because they're the most effective at what they do). I'm working on getting better at it but my twitch skills are way past their prime. I'm better as a supportive style player still. As long as I'm alive the most effective members of the group aren't going down and if it's a choice between getting them up and possibly going down, I'll take the risk. I'm more likely to survive if I bring up a skilled player than if I try to save someone who is constantly getting downed (downed penalty was fun, but it made me have to completely change my playstyle for a week).

I would argue that there are different skillsets required in WvW other than just fighting but if you're roaming, you have to be able to fight and if you meet someone stronger you better know how to escape.

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > If you're not on voice you are restricted from joining.

> Well, you can still -follow- them around even if you are not on their voice chat, it's not like they can kick you from WvW. Unlike instanced content.

You could follow them around but you're more likely to die. You can manage it if you're really fast and can keep track of where the commander is. If you see the commander backing up, you back up etc.. But the fighting relies on excellent communication and reflexes of the squad. While some players are really good at following visually, there's information being passed in the coms that are missing if you're not there. Map calls and or calls that are only given in coms. If the call came via com you miss it so you won't know that commander just told everyone to wp to garri for instance. All of a sudden you're alone in enemy territory possibly facing an oncoming squad. Not a fun place to be in. Some commanders do not tag up if they're running a guild squad with coms to prevent people from following them and "messing up" the plan. Especially if they're running guild missions.

>

> > Yeah, I'm active on a few of those threads

> I wonder how high of a priority is the skin of the WvW Legendary Armor for the higher end WvW community/players. Because judging by the complaining on this RAID FORUM about it, it would have you believe that the highest priority of WvW players is how their Legendary Armor looks compared to the Envoy Armor. Although, I seriously doubt, outside PVE players that got their armor in WVW, any actual WVW player cares about it.

>

It comes up but not as much as the current problems with WvW. Mainly we're focused on world/server balance issues and class balance issues (AOE spam, Boon Spam and Condi spam plus the need for more options to deal with said spam). Not to mention other QoL problems (sieges, walls, etc) After you get through those issues the topics of QoL come up. Mainly rewards for tiers (lack of them), lack of shinies etc. If you check out the "lack of rewards" part for tiers, you'll see the comments about lack of shinies and the complaints that PVE gets the nicest/best shinies.

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > Oh please... not that "scripted encounter pile of dolyak crap again. Like it or not, pretty much everything you said about guilds is applicable to raiding. There are more hardcore guilds and there are more casual guilds. And then there are the pugs, a term also used for non-guild zerging in WvW.

> >

> > Except for the fact that you're playing a scripted encounter that can (by your own words) be taught to you by watching vid's and practicing it until you know everything you're supposed to do by heart.

>

> Except I play both type of organized content and I never saw any basis for the haughtily attitude pvp-ers have toward pve content.

You encounter the pvp attitude in response to the PVE superiority attitude (both are *wrong*). Each requires a different skill-set and is a different specialty. Neither is better than the other per se, just different. sPvP and WvW get annoyed when PVE insists that they're "better" than everyone else because they take on Bosses with scripted flows that can be memorized. I'm not denying that it's hard, nor that learning the pattern requires skill. I'm just saying that just because you can do that doesn't make you "superior" or "better" than I am. I think both sides are reacting to a perceived "superiority" complex. I can acknowledge it takes skill to figure out the timings and rotations to do a scripted encounter. I admit, I get annoyed when someone compares that scripted encounter to the unscripted free-flowing reactionary type of play that I am skilled at and pretends they are the same thing. I also get annoyed when the person who spends time on scripted encounters tries to imply that my ability to know where to be and flank the enemy/supportive pull a downed tank/save a commander or know which of the team to try to save/which to leave behind etc requires "less skill" or is "not as good" as their ability to survive their scripted encounter. I would like the same courtesy that I extend returned. Both require skill but they're not the same skill and neither of them is really comparable when you get down to it. They're different not better/worse.

Again, they have similarities sure and you might be able to cross-over and use some of those skills in both contexts but to compare them and pretend that it makes either side "superior", it's not a good comparison and it's not a fair one either. I can say till I'm blue in the face that I'm *better* because I can do that, but it doesn't make that statement true anymore than you can claim that because you do Boss encounters all the time you are *better* than me, that's also not true. Both are different specialties and can't really be compared side by side because while (similar abilities) they require different skill-sets.

The problem comes about when one side starts to act as if their skills are superior to the other because of (insert random reasons here) and then the other side gets offended and retaliates (Both groups of players do this whether or not it's an intentional attack doesn't matter. It's the perception that gets the whole thing started).

When I said PVE builds were binary you took that as an attack on PVE. I was just pointing out that the way PVE plays (the way it's coded) makes those builds make more sense. I got irritated when you tried to claim WvW builds were just as binary (they're not as pointed out). I probably took offense, because I have no idea if you actually meant it as a slight or not and I felt you were misrepresenting WvW as a whole from an outsiders perspective. (You might have felt the same way).

The loaded words used to describe other players of the game also contributes to it "casuals" is a big one. Grouping an entire group of people together and then using terms to insult them is rude and it sets off the situation as well. When someone starts insulting other's as "casuals" it creates that "us vs them" mentality that then sets up the "PVE vs WvW/sPvP". When a member of a Raid calls a player in WvW a casual, it insinuates that you are better than they are. It doesn't matter what mode they're addressing. That attitude is what sets some of off and then it starts the silly "contest" as to who is actually better. Neither side can win that argument because they require different skills.

I used PVE to describe the entire PVE population, not specifically Raiders. When speaking of Raiders I was specific. At the same time, I couldn't help but notice the attitude thrown at anyone who played different modes or even open world (which is why I reacted in a way that was defensive). It makes it super easy to be elitist when someone else comes off as if they are superior. Perhaps I was reading into it and if that's the case I'm sorry and if you thought I was trying to be superior I'm sorry for not being more clear. I was trying to point out the differences in the modes and why some of Anet's decisions bothered me. Not claim that my preferred mode was "better than" PVE or Raiding.

Bringing it back to the whole reason I started in this thread to begin with (I wrote to Mad-doctor). I have family who bought the game and wanted to play together. We played together on EQ, it had more instanced content that we could all join together and play in. Unfortunately the only instanced content that supports the entire group is Raids. I don't want to exclude any members of my family from playing and they experience lag when playing in Open World. If there were a training mode with less pressure that would let the younger members of the family "level up" (learn the moves and have fun with it. Not get frustrated and start raging) I'd be all for it. If they added a different type of instanced content that could accommodate that many I'd join that instead. I was trying to see if perhaps there would be something like that for those of us who have family who need to be "gently" taught how to do things and are willing to learn but aren't the best when it comes to repeated failures (4 hours of wasted time that involved raging teens was NOT fun for anyone involved). Right now they log in for LW's and expacs. Once they get the basic stuff (not even all the skins) they quit. Since we'd have to split into 2 groups to do Fractals etc and when everyone is on everyone wants to play together... Well can you see where I'm coming from?

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > That is basically the reason you're NOT hearing the issues about shinies from WvW. We have bigger problems to deal with and when those are fixed we will begin addressing the other QoL issues. Right now though, this is a major flaw in the Mode and needs to be Addressed first, we'll talk Shinies after.

>

> Well then I'll wait until the shinnies become the bigger problem of WvW and we can see multiple posts of 93 pages about that subject to make it look important, and obviously outside the Raid/dungeon/fractal subforum because it simply doesn't belong here and of course it doesn't belong on this thread. Can we close this "parenthesis" about WvW now and return the thread to the actual topic? At least I will, this is not only off topic, but pointless too.

Sure, it's off-topic. I wouldn't say it's pointless. The shinies issue should be mentioned to make sure that all modes are aware of the QoL issues and especially when one mode starts getting on a high horse about things (and yes, it's completely fine to call out the elitism from wvw players and spvp players when they're being obnoxious and dismissive. Different skill-sets do not make a person "superior" it just makes them specialized. There's nothing wrong with specializing, there's only something *wrong* when/ if you think that having your specialization/skills makes you better/superior than/to someone else who doesn't have your specialization.)

The topic I was interested in was whether or not there would be a training mode added. I'm still interested in at least something like that. It would be interesting to try. I'm not however interested in going into a "training raid" run by a guild. I would like to see/understand the encounter/mechanics without having to sit and watch stupid videos (I do not like watching videos of things.. Personal pet peeve and I learn best by doing something.) I also would rather learn it in a lower pressure situation because the people that I play PVE with are not exactly the "best losers" when it comes to a PVE kind of mob. The only reason I'd set foot in a Raid at this point would be with a Training mode so I could try to get my less than active family members to come play.

If there were 10 man Fractals or other 10 man content that wasn't raid specific, I'd do that instead. For context: I have a niece and nephew. 2 brothers and sisters in law, my own 3 kiddos and my husband who play on occasion and don't want to do the "map stuff" but want to do instanced stuff. If we're all on at the same time obviously we can pretty much only do raids, I'd love other options but if there was a training option maybe I could herd them into doing it. I would do other instanced content instead because I'm not convinced that they'd actually raid but at this point Raids are the only instanced content that would allow for the numbers. For further context my 2 brothers and sisters in law played EQ and were in top level guilds (both brothers ran a Guild on EQ and were high level raiders there). There was more instanced content (higher numbers allowed) in EQ.

So, when they're on they ALL want to team up and they want to do instanced stuff (because open world can be laggy depending). As I can't get them to log in without ALL of them logging in and the instanced stuff that would support ALL of us is Raid content... Well you can see the issue right?

They don't need the rewards per se (though having an incentive to continue the training thing would be more likely to get them to keep going) but they would definitely benefit from having larger group instanced content. I'm not convinced that content should be raids though (my niece and nephew can sometimes work as a team and sometimes can't) but with a training mode/beginner mode it would at least give us an option.

We attempted the Raid content previously (as mentioned earlier in the thread) it was a waste of 4 hours and everyone who was there hated it. If there'd been a training mode I think the encounter would have gone better and perhaps that would have led to us doing something together more often, and added more cohesion to the group (knowing where to be and what to do. Being able to give precise instructions etc). If we'd had success I know for a fact that this instanced content would have become a daily thing as we gradually learned the encounter and prepared for the real thing.

As it is they only log in when LW's drop or Expacs drop. They finish the basic content and leave because it's laggy in open world and they can't be in an instance with Family. I'd love a different option or something that would help us learn the Encounter and work our way up to regular mode because I would absolutely LOVE to be able to have all of us play together.

Edited: because typos and adding context.

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Oh please... not that "scripted encounter pile of dolyak crap again. Like it or not, pretty much everything you said about guilds is applicable to raiding. There are more hardcore guilds and there are more casual guilds. And then there are the pugs, a term also used for non-guild zerging in WvW.

Except for the fact that you're playing a scripted encounter that can (by your own words) be taught to you by watching vid's and practicing it until you know everything you're supposed to do by heart.

You can NOT do that in WvW period. The encounters have the same "flavor" but they are never the same. You can know where someone is likely to cata but you can't expect them to always cata from that spot. You can know that a mesmer can portal their entire team through if you didn't sweep carefully but you can't know where that portal is likely to be. You can know that you can get mesmer portal bombed but you won't know the entire build/composition of the enemy zerg that goes through it. You can know that the enemy zerg might run at you but it might turn and run away. You can know that the enemy zerg can turn, hit the back of your zerg or split your zerg in half but you can't know which direction the commander is going to lead the team or whether they have lieutenants that are going to. You can know something is a possibility but till it actually happens all you can do is react.

There is NOTHING like that in PVE. Once you learn the encounter, it will stay the same (the variations that exist are minor).

The encounters are completely different and require completely different skillsets.

There are some strict guilds and some not strict guilds (some trust their members more and some don't, neither one of them is "right".) I would not call a guild that "recommends" a build a casual guild. I think PVE tends to insult people by calling them "casuals" and I resent that kind of talk when discussing WvW guilds. Because many of them invite players they play with constantly and builds are a major discussion as a result. There are guilds that take in newbies and train them how to play the mode. They also teach them how to build. They do not require a build because they teach you precisely what is important to take into account when you're building and they explain where your build went wrong for what you were trying to do. Just because they don't have "requirements" doesn't make them casual. I wish you'd quit dismissing entire groups... It's incredibly frustrating.

Guilds that are specialist guilds have specialist builds. End of Story. That's fine and everyone accepts that they are not the norm.. Specialist guilds have a place in a WvW server because of their Specialty and they train people to do that specialty. It does not make them superior, it just means that they are specialized. Those builds are also *not Meta* they are specific to the specialty and to what that guild thinks will work, they are also updated frequently. (You're not going to find them on Metabattles either they are locked to the Guild website or sometimes in their Teamspeak/Closed Discord areas and not shared because they want to keep the "surprise" factor).

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > WvW skins fashionwars and world restructure concern them both. One does not exclude the other. I play wvw on a T1server daily, for 2-6 hours, and both are topics of discussion frequently. I cant imagine why wvwers wouldnt be interested in getting good looking, legendary skins for the game mode they really like.

>

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > Trust me, they do. It's not a priority, of course, but only because WvW has a lot of much bigger problems.

>

> Well it must be well hidden outside the game despite what some suggest around here, on a different part of the forums, on a completely different subject. ;)

>

>

>

Because the other concerns are more important right now. Just because it's not a "frequent" discussion on the discussion boards doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you ask WvW players whether or not they want shiney looking armor they will unanimously say "Yes". (Ok except for that roamer whose got a full Legendary set but is dressed down in beginner armor so that he can surprise the enemy who thinks he's a free bag). Just because we're not discussing it constantly on discussion boards doesn't mean it's not a concern.

Ask anyone in WvW if they think PVE is the favorite? Ask them if they think PVE gets all the shiney things? Ask anyone in WvW if they think it's fair that PVE gets all of the shiney things and then think it's totally ok to compare their PVE builds to WvW builds and think they're somehow superior? (I am aware this statement doesn't represent everyone here but there is a sort of weird elitism that comes out of PVE and there's a different kind of elitism that can come out of the WvW and SPvP side, I am also aware that both sides can be guilty of being jerks about it).

When you ask what the pressing concerns are for WvW you will get exactly the most pressing ones because those are the biggest problem with the game mode right now. If you had a broken Raid Wing where the rewards were completely Universal but there was a very annoying Boss at the end that constantly summoned monsters on you for hours on end. That you could win for a bit but the encounter went on for a week before it gave "credit"... Now add in that you didn't actually have to fight this Boss to get the same Reward. I doubt very seriously you'd be wanting to fight said Boss. I'm also pretty sure that for a while the entire Raid Boards would be about said Boss and it's "innate issues" and the fact that while you still get the Reward there's no point to even have that Boss in the first place... Right?

You wouldn't be talking about the shiney rewards because the main problem is the Boss that isn't needed and is an added irritant plus the requirement of facing said boss in a week-long encounter.

This is the closest explanation I can give as to why you're not seeing it dominate or even blip on the radar. Right now the biggest problem is server balance and coverage. Right now the Tier system (which is the entire way WvW operates) is meaningless. None of the fights matter, you get the same reward no matter what Tier your in. You do not have to fight the server who has higher coverage than you, you can skip that part by throwing the match. It is also possible to get a 3 way tie.

That is basically the reason you're NOT hearing the issues about shinies from WvW. We have bigger problems to deal with and when those are fixed we will begin addressing the other QoL issues. Right now though, this is a major flaw in the Mode and needs to be Addressed first, we'll talk Shinies after.

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > > > Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

> > > > > > > > I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.

> > > > > > > > The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters _and_ changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. **I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.**

> > > > >

> > > > > Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

> > > >

> > > > But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

> > >

> > > Yeah well, you can "roam" in the open world PvE on literally anything. Raids are organized cooperative play for a larger number of players, it only make sense to compare it to WvW squad play. GvG or zerging, in either case the meta is very restrictive.

> >

> > Umm... Roaming in WvW means something completely different than it does in PVE. Roaming means going out and running into other enemies whose builds you won't know till the encounter starts. Skill, build etc can determine whether you make it out (knowing your escapes etc). Open World? You don't need defensive stats and you're actually punished for taking them.

> >

> > I'd say Zerging is the only time it gets restrictive and it completely depends on the guilds/servers etc but even then, PUG's don't care as much and some guilds encourage their members to try different builds out so we can optimize towards what we're trying to do. I have lots of builds as a result.

>

> I'm well aware what does "roaming" stand for in WvW, even I don't actively do it. The point is, it makes no sense to compare highly organized to (almost) unorganized play in terms of meta variance. Obviously the unorganized one will be much more diverse. But a much more sensible comparison would be organized vs organized, as both game modes feature this. And then you see the same type of restrictive meta in both.

I'd argue that guild zergs are organized... There are full guilds out there that have entire guild builds required to be used while in the guild (or running with the guild). If you're doing guild "raids" (what zerging is referred to in wvw) then you're running the guild build, your on the guild voice, and you're following a closed squad to do what the guild is trying to do. However those builds are also built on what they are expecting of each specific member of the guild (they will assign a build to specific players based on play-style NOT based on "meta" as used as a term in pve, but on what is the most common build combinations being encountered currently and used as a "counter" to that.) This is a common thing with Fight Guilds and Havoc guilds. There are community guilds that don't do this but they do have "recommended" builds that are "suggestions" for different classes/tasks etc. There's a LOT that goes into those discussions. Add in that the builds are not "ad hoc" unless the players are new. You have to know precisely what you're encountering and how to counter it. The current meta involves a lot of AOE and condi spam, the previous meta was all about boons. The boon corruption on Scourges is a direct counter to the Boon spam from the previous meta but the continued AOE spam is a pain. There are builds optimized for handling these in a "zerg" (front/mid/backline) group but the zerg is fluid so even if the word is "front, mid-line,back-line" being in those positions is difficult based on terrain and enemy map movements. Plus stacking... If you're getting bursted you need toughness/vitality or you need to learn your escapes better (if your class isn't very good at escaping then you need to change your armor to survive burst). It's a model that gets tweaked a lot. You are claiming there are "optimal builds" for this equation but you're ignoring the part where you are building to counter someone else's build and you don't get to have the numbers on it up front.

You're saying following a scripted encounter is "better organized" than a guild 40-50 man zerg all on voice coms? I'd say it depends entirely on the guild and the make-up. I'd also say that those who manage it are probably better organized than people running raids, because there's so many more variables that they have to account for.

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > WvW skins fashionwars and world restructure concern them both. One does not exclude the other. I play wvw on a T1server daily, for 2-6 hours, and both are topics of discussion frequently. I cant imagine why wvwers wouldnt be interested in getting good looking, legendary skins for the game mode they really like.

> >

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > Trust me, they do. It's not a priority, of course, but only because WvW has a lot of much bigger problems.

> >

> > Well it must be well hidden outside the game despite what some suggest around here, on a different part of the forums, on a completely different subject. ;)

> >

> >

> >

>

> Thats cause wvwers have come to terms with "at least we have out own shinies, leggy armor included". And most wvw comms anf high rank players in my server pay plenty of gold for Warbringer, zephyr backpack, etc etc. It is just that world balance is a more pressing issue.

Exactly! World balance is our most pressing issue, but just because we don't complain constantly about skins doesn't mean we've not noticed the favoritism both in QoL and in the "shinies" department.

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > I never had difficulty with participation even in situations where my side was wiping a lot. It's not really hard to keep your participation up.

> > Then either you don't often find yourself in situation when your side has a pug squad, and the enemies are running organized ones, or you get your participation _outside_ zvz battles.

> When my side is losing badly there is no point in following the tag for zvz battles.

>

> > Because it mostly is. For the veteran WvW players, that is.

> I posted quite a few links above with discussions about changes to WvW, I'm sure there is a healthy discussion about how to improve the game mode, by those that care about it. Notice however, that discussing the skins of the Legendary Armor isn't any kind of priority for the developers, nor the players. The skin of WvW armor is important only in the Raid forums, I'd take a guess by PVE players who couldn't get the Raid armor and went to farm the WvW armor instead and now they complain the set they chose to make isn't looking "Legendary Enough". For actual WVW players? I'd be surprised if it was even on the priority list.

Actually, those of us who are in WvW guilds will comment on it on occasion. It's not on the top tier list of things we're discussing but it does come up when a balance patch comes out or during gear discussions (which happens a lot in guilds because we DO have fashion wars regardless of what people who do NOT play that mode think). We just don't talk about it in the WvW forums as much because the other concerns are more pressing. We do talk about it in guild, especially when we're discussing options for build changes. When a patch comes out a lot of us start tweaking and re-tuning. The recent Scourge patch had a few of us doing a rethink about how we wanted to play the class/counter the class. The discussion about armor comes up a lot, and then a few of us will be annoyed about the skins. Our current concerns are however over the game-mode a secondary point is about skins and how PVE gets more attention in every way (which again drifts to things like QoL changes for PVE and eventually drifts to skins). While skins are not WvW primary concern right now (the problems I mentioned previously) please do not take it to mean that we haven't noticed the favoritism for who gets the prettiest things.

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > Squads with plans usually are guild squads. If you're not running with a wvw guild then you might not run into ones with a plan

> I'm not in a WVW guild so that's probably it. Still, there is no setting in WVW for guild-squads only and fighting against unorganized PUGs shouldn't fill you with much accomplishment. If any.

>

Yeah that would do it. Closed squads are usually guild squads, I'm not sure if you've run into those but the closed squads tend to be run by a guild at a given time. When they open the squad it's more often a PUG which happens after the Guild has done whatever it was going to do. Some squads also close down and will only let you in if you're on voice. If you're not on voice you are restricted from joining. Coordination in those groups is higher because they have voice chat commanders rather than the commander trying to type. When you see a smaller zerg smashing a larger zerg it's because of two factors, the first is often composition of the entire zerg and the second is usually voice commands. Not always but quite often. The fighting against unorganized PUG's is only "thrilling" if they severely outnumber you. Otherwise it's not really a thrill (and I'm not generally part of a blob, I'm usually scouting, if I am part of the blob I'm supportive midline keeping tanks/commander alive).

> > Lol, new souls playing wvw for the Legendary Armor? I've yet to run into ANY, literally ANY. The majority of the new souls who are on WvW are there for Gift of Battle and as soon as they get it they are gone.

> I think in another thread there was a poll about Legendary Armor versions, can't recall the results, but there were lots that got Legendary Armor in WVW. Also if you read earlier in this thread some said the exact same, that they went and got the WvW version because they couldn't get the Raid version.

The lower end Legendary Armor in WvW is easier to get but comes with no special skins. I'd be impressed if they came for the higher end Legendary armor but the majority probably did not. It's about 22 weeks to get everything after you've completed the Triumphant Armor tracks (to complete the whole set). I wonder what servers (time zones) went for WvW over PVE? As I said, I've yet to meet anyone who played specifically for the Legendary Armor, more often then not they were coming for Gift of Battle (first, maybe Legendary Armor after?)

>

> > Actually the basic premise of "wvw is dead" comes down the fact there's no difference between tiers outside of size/coverage.

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/45470/could-there-ever-be-a-chance-of-15vs15-arena

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/44748/siege-revisions/p1

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26547/world-restructuring/p1

> There is a bit of discussion about WvW changes at the moment, with developer input.

Yeah, I'm active on a few of those threads.. My guild is already working on setting up our Alliances for whenever the rework happens but right now it's still "soon" . The input about the upcoming redesign though hasn't really been as much as we're hoping. Currently Anet is still trying to figure out how the game can figure out who is a scout/roamer and who isn't. There's been a lot of internal discussion plus discussion on that thread about the different styles of play and how the game can stop penalizing one style vs another. I am hoping Alliances can help fix the coverage problem but I'm worried that it won't since the majority of the guilds who are going to be part of the Alliance are from the same server (because they know them). Hopefully the "randoms" will be the equalizer but it really depends entirely on how Anet decides a person's "active" period. Sometimes I'm really active on off-peak hours (because I live in a different time zone and so I make up part of the off-peak coverage) but sometimes I stay up super late (or get up super early) to be on peak hours, both would mess with the coverage equation (because I might do it for a week or two then switch) and they've still not addressed the rewards part of the equation either. As I said before, there's really no reward for winning a match-up and there's no reason to win if you're going to tier 1 and more reasons to just throw the match. (In fact one time we ended up in a 3 way tie because everyone was trying to throw to avoid tier 1).

As for the siege changes *grumble* I am not a fan of them changing Arrow Carts without fixing the problem with Balista's. I understand the reason for it but I think they should have waited to nerf the AC's till after they changed the problems with Line of Sight on Bali's.