Lincolnbeard.1735

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> If mesmer without _glamor_ trait is a joke what is necromancer without _spectral_ and _well_ trait?

At least when spectral mastery was deleted some spectral skills got buffed.

I still remember when Phantasmal Berserker was changed people though it was a buff because 300 damage increase of the throw. =)

In reality it was, like you said, a nerf to prevent remaining in stealth while the phantasm was attacking.

I agree with you.

That being said:

All phantasms are trash, some of them were pretty awesome before the "buff".

Good list but not going to happen.

Remember how much time it took from ANerf to fix Jaunt tooltip?

Nothing.

Have fun \o

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> hi sry for the delay i needed to reach weekend to make some time for this. i also will just ignore the beef and negativity and focus on the suggestions made, bc anything aside that is not rly helping me to keep my motivation up to put more time into this. in case i overlooked or missunderstood something while trying to go throu all the new posts then just correct me or add your suggestion again.

It's far from the first time people are doing this kind of job, at best they'll take your worst suggestion implement it and say "mesmer is now in a good place", at worst they'll say kitten you or implement the ideas in such a way mesmer will be in an even worse state.

Did you ever saw those movies were the doctor is trying to revive a patient and the other doctors and nurses stop him saying "snap out of it, he's gone!" ? - it's this thread.

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> /walks in whistling and hangs hat up

> /sees discussion on nerfs still

> /turns around, grabs hat, and walks back out while snort laughing that anet left the community to fix a class

The same ANerf that ignored all mesmer suggestions since release (except on post mirage preview tbf).

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice....

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > Quality this, quality that but no one says where this "quality" is.

>

> Seems I have to spell it out again....

>

> What I mean with "quality of nerfs and buffs" is how these nerfs and buffs are impacting the performance of the class in the end.

> That one change that gave back IP to chrono improved the performance of the class more than the nerfs in exchange for it have been weakened it's performance, meaning that compared to the state before these changes chronomancer got **buffed**.

>

> Counting buffs and nerfs just by their quantity makes no sense.

> If we would buff 3 of mesmer's weapon spells for a power coefficient of 0,01 and at the same time take away both dodge bars, would you start to say "hey, we got 3 buffs and just 1 nerf!"?

>

> No, because these 3 buffs have almost no impact on your performance since it is so small, but taking away both dodge bars is absolutely devastating and kills the class in the end. Having a mechanical change like IP that allows you to "dry shatter" is way more valuable than what was taken away.

No, the impact is minimal.

Who the heck cares about IP if the shatters were nerfed, the value of damage and utility you get now is still the sameish as before. Sure you now can f3 to f1 or double it with f5 but who the kitten cares if you're better off playing core both it terms of damage and survival.

Chrono is still trash.

> @"Mungo Zen.9364" said:

> > @"dandamanno.4136" said:

> >

> > I like the idea of having MC tied to shatters, ripped from dodge completely. Mind Wrack would become the Ambush trigger, while the others can have utility. It allows for unique shatters for mirage, with the ability to tweak CD's, strengths and effects on a per shatter basis. I assume in your example shatters would no longer use up clones? Or how do you envision MW working, clones ambush, then shatter? What do you think about 1/4 s MC per clone, Mesmer included from IP?

> >

> > I think mirrors would need to go, as having 4 MC's (1 per shatter), 2 dodges and mirrors all available would be too much. But I don't think anyone would miss those. I would take on demand MC from a shatter over chasing down a mirror any day. Also, shatters may have to share a 3 second CD to avoid having 4 seconds of MC all at once (unless clones are used up by shatter, then no CD needed).

> >

>

> Reflecting on this yesterday, thinking of what values I would tweak, a few ideas kept coming up:

>

> 1 - Limit Mirage to 1 Dodge, but it costs 75-100 Energy, making it available less often. Mirage Cloak does give a defensive advantage which should be leaned into, but having the native mobility of Dodge still available would be a good thing.

>

> 2 - Giving MC to Illusions in any capacity could be done for purely defensive purposes. This enters the discussion of 'how much DPS/Utility should Mesmer/Mirage gain from Illusions?'. Keeping Illusions alive longer would be a good thing for the Mesmer, but not at the cost of overall DPS/Utility/Survivability.

>

> A tangent though, when I look at the Mirage and think 'how does Mirage use Illusions differently than other Mesmers?', I see there are skills that redirect the Clones to a new target that the rest of the prof doesn't have. So perhaps maintaining the focus of 'redirecting clones' is enough, but adding a trait to give them added defense/uptime (perhaps via MC) to keep them around long enough to retarget to multiple targets might be of interest.

>

> 3 - Mirrors.... I like them in general, and think they should stay. Where I get confused is why Distortion (not the Shatter but the effect) and MC both exist. Delink Distortion from Mirrors and create a new Mirage exclusive association. For example, rework F4 to "New Not Distortion Shatter" Shatter your Illusions to create a Mirage Mirror at your target.

>

> 4 - To pop clones or not..... I think Mirage should continue down the clone popping path but at some point, the space should be explored for a new eSpec in a future expansion (Hello Cantha).

>

> But to the idea of Ambush and Shatter skills, let's make a simple Shatter to get it going:

> Mirage Mind Wrack

> You gain Mirage Cloak, you and your Clones Ambush with current weapon, then destroy all your clones, damaging nearby foes. The shatter effect also occurs at your location.

> The variables to tweak are; timing between Ambush and Pop, Damage of Ambush and Pop, Damage per Clone, CD, number of foes damaged by Pop

>

> The shorter the CD, the more often you get to use it, the less powerful it should be (and stronger on a longer CD), but hopefully the idea presents itself well enough.

>

>

>

> > >However, with the recent patch it made my Chrono build a little clunky with the changes to shatters,

> >

> > You find it clunky after the IP change? O.o

>

> Flow of Time (~10-12% Nerf) and Rewinder (5 second Nerf) are where I feel it the most. The Flow of Time thing is a very subtle slow down in Chrono button mashing overall really, and my rotation has now changed in different situations as some skills are not coming up as fast as they were before. The Rewinder change means I am less able to dump my clones on demand. Previously my play pattern included popping Signet of Ether to get more Phantasms going out, but that has changed to popping Signet of Illusions to reset the Shatters and keep the Clones rolling.

>

> So yeah, clunky given what I know of playing this class, which pushed me to investigate Mirage, and well, here we are....

TLDR: Nerf mirage more, mirrors can stay the way they're since they suck.

Quality this, quality that but no one says where this "quality" is.

Said that since the patch preview when some people were glorifying ANerf for the changes:

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> Phantasmal swordsman - way better but still trash. Either poke phantasm or immobilise for a short amount of time

Fine by me, don't forget to rollback every vigor nerf tho.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > Mirrors are trash.

>

> Not when you look as good as me~

Well done.

Mirrors are trash.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

>for core nothing changes, for mirage nothing changes and chrono is still trash.

FTFY

> @"Simonoly.4352" said:

> Don't you dare let me think I'm **not** influencing your design/balance decisions!

Nothing to be proud of since their balance decisions are trash.

Can't be bothered to quote a two page of quotes, so I'll just say, Split Second deals less damage than core since it was implemented, even with slow. Don't remember the name of the dude who ran the calculations.

So yeah, with the 33% nerf it will still deal less damage than core even striking twice.

To boot chrono survival will still be shit.

You're just much better off playing core.

Edit: dude was Pyro.

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> You guys should stop qqing, these changes to chrono are kitten great! Except for the fact that they didnt rework chronophantasma.

What changes? The only thing worth mentioning is the return of IP. Everything else will either stay the same or was nerfed.

> @"necromaniac.7629" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > Phantasmal swordsman - way better but still trash. Either poke phantasm or immobilise for a short amount of time.

> >

> > Chrono F skills - still useless trash.

> >

> > Crystal sands - lul.

>

> define "trash"

Trash as in phantasm swordsman will still miss the entire chain with a sidestep, F skills are just ridiculously better on core.

> @"One Hander.9830" said:

> So if chronomancers get a revert on their elite spec trade-off ( self shatters was removed cause of this originally its in past patch notes) can we can a revert on swipe for daredevils too ?

Chrono had a triple trade-off, no IP no distortion and trash F skills.

IP back means only two trade-offs remain.

Daredevil had a trade-off of steal range for unbloackable and 0 trade off for 3 better dodges.

Are you sure you want to play that game?

Phantasmal swordsman - way better but still trash. Either poke phantasm or immobilise for a short amount of time.

Chrono F skills - still useless trash.

Crystal sands - lul.

I had a thread with a bunch of suggestions from the mesmer community sometime ago, some things changed but some of them are still actual, could be a starting point to someone who gives a fuck.

I can't be bothered anymore.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/70097/changes-to-improve-mesmer-buffs-nerfs-qol/p1

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Skyronight.6370" said:

> > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > > > > @"Skyronight.6370" said:

> > > > > Every1 keeps talking about holos and revs but people forgot how thief has been the best roamer class for the entire existence of the game with the exception of HoT launch where rev replaced thief for a few months. If you wanna play any sort of glass cannon roamer +1 spec thats not a thief well good luck because its not viable as soon as you re in plat and even less in at/mat.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thief needs some nerfs in the next patch to make other roamers more viable. just how the current side noders need nerfs to make other side noders more viable. Either nerf thief or buff some other specs that could fit the same role. Even power rev is dead now, every1 just went condi side node in tournaments and high tier pvp.

> > > >

> > > > So you want the most squishy, mediocre damage class in the game to not have the best mobility? Man I sure hope a-net hires you to manage balance, so I can finally quit this game.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > if you think thief is squishy try playing any other full zerker glass cannon build and see how fast you die compared to thief. you will get easely focused and die cuz you dont have an insta cast 1200 range teleport or stealth on demand and evades.

> >

> > Yeah, do that. And you will see that you dont die nearly as fast as the thief does if he doesnt instantly run away. Squishy doesnt mean "cant run away", it means "cant survive when fighting". If you remove thieves mobility, he cant even run away. What do you think that does to the class?

> >

> > Edit: Oh and thief has far below average evades nowadays (basically 1 extra evade every 30 seconds, and maybe 1 evade in daggerstorm every 90, except most thieves dont run daggerstorm anymore), and "on demand stealth" is pretty useless in-combat, and just gets you killed.

>

> the usual things that you type are kitten stupid but this one takes the cake

>

> " Oh and thief has far below average evades nowadays (basically 1 extra evade every 30 seconds, and maybe 1 evade in daggerstorm every 90, except most thieves dont run daggerstorm anymore), and "on demand stealth" is pretty useless in-combat, and just gets you killed. "

> holly molly dude

Don't know if that is the one that takes the cake. He has an impressive resume of face-palmy stuff.

> @"ThatOtherAlt.2984" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > @"ThatOtherAlt.2984" said:

> > > Thank God Odik quit, or I'd never hear the end of this one.

> >

> > You know the game and particularly mesmer is an awful state when one of the most passionate players for the game, that knows the game inside out, leave.

> > (I know there are other reasons, but still one of the pushes was the state of the game).

> >

>

> That's really not the notion I got from him based on the last mail he sent me. I think it was mostly the "other" reasons.

He sent me a farewell mail too, saying those other reasons. But he was already fed up with this trash balance and said several times he would quit if mesmer wasn't buffed.

Now I only login like once every two weeks but AFAIK he wasn't playing that much.

> @"ThatOtherAlt.2984" said:

> Thank God Odik quit, or I'd never hear the end of this one.

You know the game and particularly mesmer is an awful state when one of the most passionate players for the game, that knows the game inside out, leave.

(I know there are other reasons, but still one of the pushes was the state of the game).

I'll probably buy it just for the nostalgia aspect of it. Taking into the account the last patches it will be the last xpac for gw2 anyway.

PvP and wvw dead, pve last patches are a kitten chore, since the new flying mount patch I didn't finished any masteries, don't have the new mount and in the last one played one hour.

The quality is going downhill at an alarming rate, they will go all in with the Cantha xpac to try to win people over and I doubt it will happen.