Oxygen.5918

> @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > Immobilizing oneself might be the most stupid thing I've ever seen on a class defined by extreme combat mobility.

>

> It's a tradeoff that comes with having a ranged weapon that deals melee level of damage.

>

hahahahahahahaha

They won't "change it because I don't like it", but they'll certainly buff it because it's undertuned. Mark my words: next balance patch will see a Rifle damage increase for thief.

Immobilizing oneself might be the most stupid thing I've ever seen on a class defined by extreme combat mobility.

> @jaif.3518 said:

> > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > Rifle doesn't feel thiefy at all.

>

> To you. Using a made up definition.

>

> Seriously, I'm not a lawyer and not going to debate like one. Deadeye is a lot of fun in-game, I find myself really relying on stealth, and I'm starting to get decent at picking targets. I feel like a thief, just not a melee one.

>

> Sorry you hate it, but a bunch of us in-game seem to like it.

>

> -Jeff

Everything is made up. Why don't you offer your own definition of what the thief is supposed to play like? Show some creativity for once in your life instead of consuming anet's scraps.

Why don't you play a ranger if you like that slow, long-range "playstyle" anyway?

> @Sartharina.3542 said:

> If you want Twitchy and Highly Mobile, you still have Daredevil. But that's not all there is to thief, as Deadeye expertly demonstrates. If you don't like it (Bugs and balance issues aside), that's your problem, not the specialization's. Conceptually, and mostly in practice, Deadeye is an amazing addition to the thief identity.

>

> I think the big problem is people have spent the past 2 years with Daredevil being treated as a straight upgrade to Thief, and conflating the identity so that Thief is Daredevil and Daredevil is Thief, which is NOT the case.

Deadeye expertly demonstrates anet's design incompetence. If I don't like the rifle, it's definitely the rifle's problem, because it's an uninteresting 180˚ shift of the profession's playstyle, i.e. a ranger with a longbow that can't move. Ew.

Daredevil wasn't all that great either, but at least made sense.

I understand the idea of specialization; there's a difference between specializing and completely trashing the profession's core feel. This is what most people don't seem to grasp. Something like short bow may be ranged, but _feels_ thiefy. Rifle doesn't feel thiefy at all.

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> Very much so. The d/p daredevil set perfectly fits the description **you made up**.

>

> > **Thieves are tricky**:

> Lots of stealth and combat mobility is what makes them "tricky". The set easily gap closes and can disappear constantly, assuming it has the initiative or utilities to do so.

> Check.

> > **...twitchy**:

> Everything on the d/p weaponset is reactive. Daredevil allows for more and enhanced evasion which allows evasion to be equally twitchy.

> Check.

> > **...highly mobile**:

> Yes. Especially in combat.

> Check.

> > **The nature of their initiative mechanic makes their damage bursty and frontloaded**:

> Yes, as with all thief builds.

> Check.

> > **...which works well with their in-and-out style**:

> d/p daredevil can easily disengage and engage depending on the situation.

> Check.

> > **Their limited access to raw defensive skills and low health means they must rely on dodging, evading, teleporting**:

> Yes. d/p daredevil has to rely on it's evades and stealth to not die.

> Check.

> > **...and stealthing to hope to survive, let alone thrive**:

> Half of d/p daredevil's defense. Yup.

> Check.

> > Anyway, none of this makes sense for the nature of the profession. I don't think homogenizing everything is the way to go.

>

>

>

> And as a reply to some of your comments:

>

> 1. Both death's retreat and Kneel are both tricky. There is a reason why there is an ammo system on kneel, so you can adjust without abusing it. If you are kneeling the entire time, you are a sitting duck asking to get killed. Death's retreat can also be spammed to get away or tapped to kite. Timed right you can actually avoid attacks all together.

> 2. If you are meleeing with deadeye, you are playing it wrong. Deadeye is a long ranged/support spec. The whole spec is designed for you to play at range and with others. Support, something thieves never had access to. It even says right on the wiki that the deadeye was designed to address the thief's lack of long ranged combat.

> 3. Death's Retreat is plenty mobile. In fact, it could outrace a nike warrior, if the Deadeye knows what they are doing. Think over 3k units in under 5 seconds.

> 4. The rifle can be bursty and frontloaded, but it seems barely anyone knows how to achieve that despite the massive amounts of advice that has been circulating the forums.

> 5. If you are sniping at range and have a friend taking the heat in your stead, there isn't much point in teleporting or dodging now is there? That's because the Deadeye **has a totally different playstyle than core Thief or Daredevil.** I don't understand why this concept has to be repeated constantly to everyone. And most importantly, Deadeye has access to buffs the rest of the profession doesn't. It's not just in variety, but it also has buffing capabilities to a degree neither core nor DD will ever reach. This opens up roles and build variety, something that the thief community has been bitching about for years.

> 6. And if you want DE to make sense with the profession (which it does anyways, not including your description), you are basically asking it to be homogenized to the only playstyle thief has had for years, in your face melee/+1bot/fodder. You can't have both.

>

> EDIT: and before you tell me: s/p, s/d, p/d and (definitely) p/p do not have the disengage abilities of d/p unless you spec for it.

1. I think I specifically discussed Death's Retreat because of how damn similar it was to a lot of other skills featured on other thief weapon sets. Its design is lazy as all shfck.

2. Sure, but the thief isn't about that, and shouldn't be. They address something that didn't need addressing in the first place, and end up doing it in an excessively unimaginative way. They're killing profession identity slowly.

3. See 1.

4. Malice as a concept promotes staying in combat, and punishes target switching. It's completely disconnected from the thief's nature.

5. This has to be repeated because players are completely flabbergasted by the design choices made here. Do you think all the discontentment about the traitline is pure coincidence?

6. My P/D would like to have a word with you.

"edit": Why do you think SB is considered the only really viable thief swap? Even condition builds run it, making your point rather moot.

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > > > > @Druitt.7629 said:

> > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > > You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yep, it's like the Necro Scourge -- a Necro without the trademark shroud (essentially) -- which yields a nicely different play style. I think it definitely fits in with a Rogue-like profession: tricky, ambushing, etc.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > There's a difference between removing one aspect and completely changing the class.

> > >

> > > What are you implying? The only real change the DE brings to the profession is how you play with the thief. The damage is still there. The stealth is still there. The Steal has been improved. There is access to support builds. But other than that, nothing has really changed about the profession.

> >

> > The original post contains my insights. Feel free to (re)read it.

>

> You basically changed the definition to suit your own point just like another comment said. Your personal description of thief is based exclusively off the d/p DrD meta. The meta does not and never will define the profession, regardless of how hard the meta is pushed or which profession that is. So again, what are you implying?

The definition fits every thief weapon set. I never mentioned anything about a meta.

This data is worthless without knowing about your rotation and traits.

From my experience, no reason to go cele on a thief since their damage is very specialized.

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @Sobx.1758 said:

> > I don't know, I feel like there's no real reason to pick a DE spec. Other than "I want to play with rifle", but IMO the spec doesn't really feel as good as it should. And I'm saying that as someone who REALLY wanted to play DE. But it's... disappointing on so many levels. There's barely a situation (if any) where you can pick DE over other thief builds.

> > You trade a lot (mobility, ability to attack multiple targets, some dmg/dps) to get what? Range? In a game where anyone can easly close the gap? I don't know about that. Not to mention that when you kneel vs ranger, he can hit you and you can't hit him, kitten ;D

>

> Without rifle, just like DD, they are improved core thieves.

>

> Stealing is no longer a hard engage (advantage and disadvantage)

> Ramping Damage with all weapons to a single target(? Malice does not feel like it behaves in this way). 21% at full malice using M7. 15% with only 5 Malice. DD can not achieve that without having staff on at all times.

> A second, and reliable access to quickness with scaling damage of 15% at max malice.

> Quick on demand access to stealth that removes penalties that prevents it.

> Very tanky against a single target.

> A massive damage spike at Max Malice

> Very Strong Synergy with Critical Strikes, Shadow Arts, Trickery, and in some cases Deadly Arts

> Stolen Items apply Conditions and Debuffs to marked targets at all ranges, and gives you boons that thieves normally would not have access to. (Superspeed for example)

> You have support functions in two traits.

> Can get a free stolen skill, when combined with deadly arts, stolen skills can be used twice giving you a total of 2+2*(each cantrip used) stolen skill.

> Access to a very powerful AOE Utility.

> Strong Defensive Utilities and CCs.

> The ability to play mindgames with players.

> Strongest self heal ability, that doubles as a powerful condi removal. Something that thieves had MASSIVELY lacked

> Max bonus damage percentage is 21% Requires one Trait, but is fully gained over the course of some seconds.

> Minimal Bonus damage percentage is 15%

> Access to a stun when you first damage an opponent (can not be blocked due to the trigger being damage).

>

> Without Staff, DD gives...

>

> An elite that can immediately finish a player off.

> An interruption Utility

> Thief's only real access to block.

> Dodge Mechanics

> A strong Condi trait (Pulminary Imapct).

> Three dodges

> Good access to endurance regen.

> Weakness on Critical hit.

> 7% bonus damage to enemies within 360 units.

> Condi removal on evade.

> Max bonus damage percentage is 17% to all enemies within 360 units. Requires two traits. But immediate access

> Minimal Bonus damage percentage is 0%

> One of the Dodge Mechanics provides a good mobility boost.

> A strong healing ability that restores endurance.

> Has synergy with Acrobatics, Critical Strikes, Trickery, and some features with Deadly Arts

>

>

> Looking at it objectively, when you take away the spec unique weapon, Deadeye provides more power if the player is comfortable with core thief. Daredevil provides a mix of damage and survivability, and isn't as punishing for wasting a dodge. Yes Mark can be blocked, but it only stops the steal effects. You will generate malice normally, I haven't been denied a stolen skill yet. Steal can be blocked in the same manner.

>

>

> Something tells me you're not actually taking a moment to think about what each spec can do without their weapons.

My issue is more about the Deadeye (specifically, Rifles) not feeling thiefy; not necessarily about the spec's tuning.

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > > @Druitt.7629 said:

> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

> > > >

> > > > Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

> > >

> > > Yep, it's like the Necro Scourge -- a Necro without the trademark shroud (essentially) -- which yields a nicely different play style. I think it definitely fits in with a Rogue-like profession: tricky, ambushing, etc.

> > >

> >

> > There's a difference between removing one aspect and completely changing the class.

>

> What are you implying? The only real change the DE brings to the profession is how you play with the thief. The damage is still there. The stealth is still there. The Steal has been improved. There is access to support builds. But other than that, nothing has really changed about the profession.

The original post contains my insights. Feel free to (re)read it.

> @Druitt.7629 said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

> >

> > Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

>

> Yep, it's like the Necro Scourge -- a Necro without the trademark shroud (essentially) -- which yields a nicely different play style. I think it definitely fits in with a Rogue-like profession: tricky, ambushing, etc.

>

There's a difference between removing one aspect and completely changing the class.

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > @Ashanor.5319 said:

> > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > @Ashanor.5319 said:

> > > > No offense, but no amount of training is going to make Rifle good.

> > >

> > > > @Ashanor.5319 said:

> > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > > @Ashanor.5319 said:

> > > > > > No offense, but no amount of training is going to make Rifle good.

> > > > >

> > > > > No amount of buffs is going to make a player good.

> > > >

> > > > True, but my point still remains.

> > >

> > > Can you explain what makes it bad?

> >

> > I didn't say it was bad, I just said it wasn't good. What makes it not good is having the sustain of a Shortbow (very slightly higher technically) and less burst than P/P.

>

> That's it? I've actually done testing with the two and I found that while p/p can maintain damage over time better than Rifle, Rifle has the much better burst. Within a few seconds I have managed to pump out at least a 30k burst with the Rifle, using a highly buffed auto that would crit 3-5k on average after I burned my initiative on 3 DJs, which would again crit 10k+ each. Meanwhile, p/p takes about 4-6 unloads before it hits that amount of damage. And I used the same build I have now for both. So I do not really understand the issue.

PP gets Headshot, one of the best skill in the entire game.

> @nacario.9417 said:

> what i hate most about deadeye is all the rude ppl out there, so much kitten thrown around cuz ur a deadeye and ppl expect this and that. My block list keeps growing, i just cant take rude toddlers serious anymore

Classic case of pot calling the kettle black.

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

> > > > >

> > > > > Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

> > > >

> > > > Sorry, how does the Deadeye require any thought to play? To kneel or not to kneel, is that the question, Leo Shakespeare?

> > >

> > > Because if you just jump into a fight with the rifle, you are almost guaranteed to die. You have to find an enemy that is already engaged with others so you can pick them off. Then you have to find a nice elevated spot so when you are drawing attention your enemy can't charge at you directly. Then you have to figure out who has to die first if there happens to be multiple targets. You also have to be ready to switch targets if one starts charging you. Finally, you have to know how, when and where to bail if someone does reach you, because again if you engage up close you will probably die. There is just way more planning involved in playing Deadeye than core or Daredevil thief.

> >

> > That's an adorable imaginary fantasy scenario that will never happen.

>

> If you lack a functioning brain, then it'll never happen. It's a common trend for me so far :/ Multiple players? Kill priority goes as... who can die the fastest, who deals the most damage, most annoying, tank.

>

> It's basic PvP thinking. Reduce the amount of damage they can do as quickly as possible.

That applies to everyone, not just the DE.

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

> > >

> > > Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

> >

> > Sorry, how does the Deadeye require any thought to play? To kneel or not to kneel, is that the question, Leo Shakespeare?

>

> Because if you just jump into a fight with the rifle, you are almost guaranteed to die. You have to find an enemy that is already engaged with others so you can pick them off. Then you have to find a nice elevated spot so when you are drawing attention your enemy can't charge at you directly. Then you have to figure out who has to die first if there happens to be multiple targets. You also have to be ready to switch targets if one starts charging you. Finally, you have to know how, when and where to bail if someone does reach you, because again if you engage up close you will probably die. There is just way more planning involved in playing Deadeye than core or Daredevil thief.

That's an adorable imaginary fantasy scenario that will never happen.

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

>

> Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

Sorry, how does the Deadeye require any thought to play? To kneel or not to kneel, is that the question, Leo Shakespeare?

> @MrForz.1953 said:

> You know. Back when people wanted rifle on Thief before the HoT elite spec announcements I've been set on fire for saying that's it's incompatible and that the nature of the Thief wouldn't permit it. When Deadeye was announced I assumed that after all, elite specs were meant to turn classes into something else entirely. And then PoF came out, and I really don't know what to make of Deadeye. I maybe expected that it would be a good addition to PvE but so far it seems to be Scrapper 2.0 in terms of efficiency. And kitten, it might not even be that efficient on the long run in PvP.

Diversity is one thing, but going 180˚on the profession's nature is another. Rifles could fit the profession - any weapon could - but this design doesn't.

The wiki describes the thief as "Thieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowstepping to surprise and to get close to their target. They're deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies."

I don't really like this description because it is rather generic. Here's mine: "Thieves are tricky, twitchy, and highly mobile. The nature of their initiative mechanic makes their damage bursty and frontloaded, which works well with their in-and-out style. Their limited access to raw defensive skills and low health means they must rely on dodging, evading, teleporting and stealthing to hope to survive, let alone thrive."

Let's compare that to what the rifle (and malice) has to offer.

**Thieves are tricky**: The rifle isn't all that tricky, except for Death's Retreat, which is pretty similar to Debilitating Arc (a skill that already exists). Everything else involves shooting bullets of varying quality at a target. Why?

**...twitchy**: The rifle is definitely not twitchy. None of the abilities are really reactive (think Headshot). Most of the time, you won't even be moving. Why?

**...highly mobile**: The rifle might be the least mobile weapon in the game, mostly because it roots you in place. Yes, a skill that roots you in place on the most mobile profession in the game. You also lose Steal, just for good measure. Why?

**The nature of their initiative mechanic makes their damage bursty and frontloaded**: The rifle does the exact opposite; malice's damage bonus builds up over time, and Death's Judgement, the big button, incites you to build vulnerability, fury, and might stacks from the 3 preceding skills. Fortunately, they are each on hotkey 1, 2, and 3, respectively, so you don't mess up your rotation. Why?

**...which works well with their in-and-out style**: Except you won't go in, nor out, because you can't anymore. Also, you're standing still. Why?

**Their limited access to raw defensive skills and low health means they must rely on dodging, evading, teleporting**: Deadeye loses the thief's main way of teleporting, Steal, and offers one only Death's Retreat for mobility. Too bad it can't be used while kneeling. Why?

**...and stealthing to hope to survive, let alone thrive**: Rifle literally has a skill that prevents you from stealthing. Yes, the profession that is about stealthing and using stealth attack prevents itself from stealthing. Why?

Anyway, none of this makes sense for the nature of the profession. I don't think homogenizing everything is the way to go.

I think the rifle just doesn't work as a primary, or secondary weapon.

The wiki describes the thief as "Thieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowstepping to surprise and to get close to their target. They're deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies."

I don't really like this description because it is rather generic. Here's mine: "Thieves are tricky, twitchy, and highly mobile. The nature of their initiative mechanic makes their damage bursty and frontloaded, which works well with their in-and-out style. Their limited access to raw defensive skills and low health means they must rely on dodging, evading, teleporting and stealthing to hope to survive, let alone thrive."

Let's compare that to what the rifle (and malice) has to offer.

Thieves are tricky: The rifle isn't all that tricky, except for Death's Retreat, which is pretty similar to Debilitating Arc (a skill that already exists). Everything else involves shooting bullets of varying quality at a target. Why?

...twitchy: The rifle is definitely not twitchy. None of the abilities are really reactive (think Headshot). Most of the time, you won't even be moving. Why?

...highly mobile: The rifle might be the least mobile weapon in the game, mostly because it roots you in place. Yes, a skill that roots you in place on the most mobile profession in the game. You also lose Steal, just for good measure. Why?

The nature of their initiative mechanic makes their damage bursty and frontloaded: The rifle does the exact opposite; malice's damage bonus builds up over time, and Death's Judgement, the big button, incites you to build vulnerability, fury, and might stacks from the 3 preceding skills. Fortunately, they are each on hotkey 1, 2, and 3, respectively, so you don't mess up your rotation. Why?

...which works well with their in-and-out style:Except you won't go in, nor out, because you can't anymore. Also, you're standing still. Why?

Their limited access to raw defensive skills and low health means they must rely on dodging, evading, teleporting: Deadeye loses the thief's main way of teleporting, Steal, and offers one only Death's Retreat for mobility. Too bad it can't be used while kneeling. Why?

...and stealthing to hope to survive, let alone thrive: Rifle literally has a skill that prevents you from stealthing. Yes, the profession that is about stealthing and using stealth attack prevents itself from stealthing. Why?

> @Jana.6831 said:

> Deadeye is actually what Daredevil should've been: another playstyle. Just that stationary and thief doesn't work too well and just that the game is still unbalanced as kitten. They went overboard with Hot and that will remain a problem until they'll finally come around to remove some of the powercreep.

>

> Good to have you back, Zach ;)

The wiki describes the thief as "Thieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowstepping to surprise and to get close to their target. They're deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies."

I don't really like this description because it is rather generic. Here's mine: "Thieves are tricky, twitchy, and highly mobile. The nature of their initiative mechanic makes their damage bursty and frontloaded, which works well with their in-and-out style. Their limited access to raw defensive skills and low health means they must rely on dodging, evading, teleporting and stealthing to hope to survive, let alone thrive."

Let's compare that to what the rifle (and malice) has to offer.

Thieves are tricky: The rifle isn't all that tricky, except for Death's Retreat, which is pretty similar to Debilitating Arc (a skill that already exists). Everything else involves shooting bullets of varying quality at a target. Why?

...twitchy: The rifle is definitely not twitchy. None of the abilities are really reactive (think Headshot). Most of the time, you won't even be moving. Why?

...highly mobile: The rifle might be the least mobile weapon in the game, mostly because it roots you in place. Yes, a skill that roots you in place on the most mobile profession in the game. You also lose Steal, just for good measure. Why?

The nature of their initiative mechanic makes their damage bursty and frontloaded: The rifle does the exact opposite; malice's damage bonus builds up over time, and Death's Judgement, the big button, incites you to build vulnerability, fury, and might stacks from the 3 preceding skills. Fortunately, they are each on hotkey 1, 2, and 3, respectively, so you don't mess up your rotation. Why?

...which works well with their in-and-out style:Except you won't go in, nor out, because you can't anymore. Also, you're standing still. Why?

Their limited access to raw defensive skills and low health means they must rely on dodging, evading, teleporting: Deadeye loses the thief's main way of teleporting, Steal, and offers one only Death's Retreat for mobility. Too bad it can't be used while kneeling. Why?

...and stealthing to hope to survive, let alone thrive: Rifle literally has a skill that prevents you from stealthing. Yes, the profession that is about stealthing and using stealth attack prevents itself from stealthing. Why?