Sajuuk Khar.1509

Well we see the Tengu as an allied faction, and we know there are three more. The Olmakhan seem to be another. who will the last two be? Kodan I hope is one of them.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > That said, no point in discussing with Sajuuk about their theories. They'll argue that they're right, even when you provide evidence that they're wrong, or even when the story develops counter to their theory. So says the king of such arguments.

> @"Raknar.4735" said: > She wouldn‘t share knowledge that turns out to be flat out wrong. Yes she would, if she honestly didn't know it was wrong why wouldn't she?

> @"Fueki.4753" said: > There may be a reason for that, but it's also established fact that Lyssa left Tyria with the others. > Therefore she no longer has anything to do with us, who were left behind. > Said reason can be as little as Lyssa disagreeing with the others and refusing to take away his godhood. > > Unless Arenanet retcons the fact that Lyssa left, or we chase the gods into the Mists, there is no way for Lyssa to become part of the plot. There is no established "fact" that Lyssa left. Kormir claims she left, but Kormir isn't all knowing, and Lyssa is the goddess of illusions, and a twin goddess. Lyssa could have magiced her way into making it look like she left, or maybe one of the twins left, and the other didn't. You should never take anything an NPC says as literal truth. Developers write NPC dialog from the perspective of that NPC, a flawed being with limited understanding of the situation.

> @"Fueki.4753" said: > Why should we deal with whatever Lyssa is up to in the Mists? > She departed from Tyria with the other gods. When Balthazar dies at the end of Path of Fire he curses all of the gods for betraying him except Lyssa, and Anet has said there is a reason for that. Given that he was previously using an artifact of Lyssa to disguise himself as Lazarus, his lack of cursing Lyssa alongside the other gods, that the Orrian history scrolls state that Lyssa was the one most connected to mortals, and had to be "commanded" by the other gods to leave mortal towns and go to Arah once it was finished, as well as Anet's confirmation of there being a reason behind Balthazar not cursing Lyssa, its long been suspected that Lyssa is up to something. Anet has also previously stated that the story of the human gods isn't over yet, which adds further credibility to it.

> @"Kodama.6453" said: > Anet stated that End of Dragons is not supposed to be the end of GW2. Even if the elder dragons are defeated, the story is supposed to go on. This "mother" is most likely another entity that stands behind the entire dragon cycle. Honestly, the way Kralk said the word "mother" implied she was already dead IMO. Assuming it doesn't get resolved in EoD, the post EoD story could tie up the gods narrative by dealing with whatever Lyssa is up to. Even besides that, theres a few stories like Malyck, and the Ghosts of Ascalon, they could spend some LW chapters on also. Maybe add Wizard's tower as a raid.

> @"Ashantara.8731" said: > * Story content suddenly forced you through tons of group content and "encouraged" you to have all characters raid-proofed. Well, I have some professions that I only play occasionally for fun and diversion. I never took the time to perfect their meta build rotations and class mechanics (e.g., Revenant). Now I am forced to play through group content that requires you to be good at it (as per DPS meters). And on top of that, you have to look for a new group every couple of missions, simply because the DRMs are interrupted by non-DRM story content that you must play through if you want to proceed. That makes it really time-consuming and irritating, so why put up with it needlessly? Exactly. Ergo I deleted professions I had multiple characters of (except for two which I kept for their age) to make my GW2 life less stressful. I don't know how you are playing DRMs to feel like you need to be "raid proofed" to play them, but they are super easy, even with basic exotic gear.

Honestly, I really enjoy Icebrood Saga for several reasons 1. I like that each of the maps are very different from each other. Grothmar was a big party map. Bjora was more horror focused, and used environmental effects like freezing storms. Drizzlewood felt like a big war map, and added in WvW elements to PvE gameplay. 2. I'm glad Anet stopped adding in new maps every single release. One of the biggest problems Guild Wars 2 has is that it has so many maps, but so few of them get played, that most of the game space is dead, and empty, or nearly so. Living World S3 and S4's obsession with adding a new map every release ended up being one of the biggest detriments to the game in the long run. It just meant lots of maps, with little in them, got added all over the place, only to be immediately abandoned 2-3 months later when the next release came out. Not adding a new map, and instead expanding on maps like Bjora and Drizlewood, cut down this problem massively, and kept people in those maps for much longer periods of time. And I hope this split map thing is something they continue into post EoD LW content. 3. As kind of a continuation of 2. I really enjoy the Champions releases because they aren't in a new map. One of the biggest narrative problems Guild Wars 2 has always had is that we are constantly told that the dragons, and their minions, are attacking all over the place, but we almost never actually see this in-game. Dragon minions usually being sequestered into far off regions of the world, far away from any inhabited area. Had Icebrood Saga continued on like previous Living World seasons, this whole story of Jormag and Primrodus fighting each other, and invading the world, would have turned out the same way. An invasion in name only not reflected in the actual gameplay, or map content. DRMs not only skirt around adding in YET ANOTHER map no one is going to visit after the next release comes out, but also allows them to actually have dragon minions attack places, or just outside places, like Rata Sum, Lion's Arch, Ebonhawke, Divinity's Reach, etc. Champions is honestly the closest Guild Wars 2 has ever gotten to actually delivering on the dragon invasion premise since the attack on Claw Island story instance back in vanilla. And unlike Claw Island, I can actually replay this without having to make a new character. 4. I also like the addition of new allied factions to the DRMs over time, as well as the updating of the EoTN to include NPCs from these new allied factions. Its probably been the most I've felt like we actually have this big alliance of forces helping us fight the dragons since the formation of the Pact back in core. And it really builds on the fact we HAVE helped a lot of people throughout our adventures, so it makes sense they would want to help us in return.

> @"Fenella.2634" said: > Laranthir could have been someone you'd like, but for some reason he was put on a bus in favor of Jhavi. I hope there's a story-relevant reason for that and he's doing something interesting in the background. The reason was likely Jahvi is a descendant of Jora, who has a personal connection to Jormag, via Drakkar's manipulation of Svanir, so it made sense to have her be forefront so she could get some measure of vengeance for what Jormag/Drakkar did to her family.

> @"Svennis.3852" said: > Interestingly enough, there was a guild chat where they touched on this subject yesterday (I think?). I haven't been able to watch it yet, but they talked about a cut centaur storyline. This is incorrect. Cut content, by definition, is content that was actually developed, but then removed. Either pre, or post, release. As they admit in their twitch stream, they never actually made the centaur storyline because they considered it too complicated to try to explain why the Centaurs were now your allies in such a short time. It isn't cut content, the content was never developed., or originally planned. It was an idea they had for a possible storyline. This contrasting to something like Malyck in HoT, who was originally designed to be in the expansion, but actually got cut out.

> @"EdwinLi.1284" said: > from the first Champion trailer, there may have been a bit more story missions involving the dwarf's return before that specific Story mission but they may have been scrapped due to internal issues with finishing those content in the planned schedule. There's really nothing in the first trailer that suggests that. We see the dwarves in Ebonhawk, but the dwarven allies can show up there, and in any DRM for that matter. > @"Fueki.4753" said: > Before, his destryoers had no resonance with Primordus. > He just made them and they went destroying. > > But now, after sucking up Kralkatorrik's magic, he becomes stronger the more his minions destroy. > That's why the destruction is much worse now. > > However, since this magic also doubled as Kralkatorrik's weakness (as it made him weak to his own crystal magic), Fire should be one of Primordus' weaknesses now (and ice one of Jormag's, as Jormag utilizes this magic as well). > But I can see Arenanet forgetting about the downside, despite its importance in season 4. That's not really how the magic absorption works. Kralk didn't get Zhaitan's weakness of overly specialized minions, or Mordremoth's weakness of mind.

> @"Teratus.2859" said: > The Spirits are the ones most interesting in this scenario.. will they absorb this power and become even more powerful than they are? or will they follow in Owl's footsteps and sacrifice themselves to absorb Jormag's magic and save the world?.. that's the real question. > @"Fueki.4753" said: > The spirits, as a group, could also become the replacement for Jormag (and possibly Primordus). I'm gonna have to agree with Fueki here. Icebrood Saga has constantly pushed the notion that the Spirits are beings of incredible, if not limitless, magical powers. While consumption of too much magical energy typically leads to ley infused bounty monsters, the Spirits are one of the few things in Tyria that I could reasonably see shouldering the power of an Elder Dragon, and serving as new forces to maintain the balance alongside Aurene. > @"EdwinLi.1284" said: > I do think we may get involved with Gods again but not the ones we know about. The Human Gods that are worshipped we know about are only worshipped within the regions been in since GW1. However, that is only about 20% of the entire planet. There are probably other civilizations beyond and probably have Gods of their own. We may explore into these unknown regions and new civilizations once the Elder Dragon Storyline finally ends sometime either after EoD or after the living world after EoD since it will be unknown territory for everyone. The Human gods were incredibly powerful beings from another world, and the Elder Dragons have long been presented as Tyria's equivalent, or near so. I find it unlikely there are more beings of equal, or even near equal, power on Tyira. Or else the Elder Dragons would be off trying to kill them to take their powers. Any god involvement is most likely going to come form Lyssa, who likely never really left, or only half left since she is a twin.

One thing I noticed. * We have 5 Primordus based DRMs * We have 2 Jormag based DRMs * The trailer for chapters 1/2 show that the upcoming Bloodtide Coast, and Caledon Forest, DRMs are Jormag based I'm going to guess that the Fireheart Rise DRM is also Jormag based, so its an even 5/5 for each, hence Chapter 3's title being "Balance". Jormag is going to keep stepping up its game to stay matched with Primordus. Then they go head to head in Chapter 4 Judgement.

> @"HotDelirium.7984" said: > I think once the "dragons" are dealt with the God will want to come back or actually come back and then maybe that creates other hosts of problems from demons/the mists/ and other world- remember Shattered Observatory? We could def face extradimensional creepers from the mists...or the worlds the Gods left to? I don't think the human gods will want to come back. Even before the dragon business they were pulling away because the incident with Abbadon showed that direct interference was doing more harm then good, and when we went to confront Abbadon the gods were like "na, y'all can do it!". Kormir pretty much gave us this same answer during Balthazar's little rampage. If anything, I think that would just further prove to them that staying was bad.

> @"Fenella.2634" said: > Also it is a bit sad Owl is now dead. I was hoping to see more of her but guess death is a better fate than being corrupted to a Elder Dragon. Don't forget Owl's cryptic comment about the Spirit's being able to guide the fall. > @"Fenella.2634" said: > This part was weird, anyway. Doesn't that make them a Perpetuum mobile? Something seems to be wrong there. Not weird to me. Dragon of fire gets more powerful the more fire there is, and if it makes more fire then yeah, its going to get stronger from that.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > Did Jormag JUST come up with this idea of turning the world into a fridge? > Why not just act on it in the first place? It's not like they needed an alliance to go around turning things into popsicles. > Doubt they needed to consult the Asuras on who or where to freeze over, Jormag could have just frozen over whatever they reached. Yes, they explain this in the dialog of Asuran Counsel instance, and the Lake Doric DRM. Ryland was in the meeting with the Asura where they told him that Primrodus has a feedback loop with his minions, where the more the burn, the stronger he gets, and the more they burn. Ryland is like "hmm, I'm gonna go try something" and leaves. Then we get the Lake Doric DRM, and at the end Ryland reveals this is what he was leaving to do, to see if the same worked for Jormag. > @"EdwinLi.1284" said: > As for Jormag, the Benevolent Dictator personality of Jormag has been her personality for a long time as the Icebroods have presented her that way since the beginning of GW2 as a Elder Dragon that will always give those who serve her what they want in return they give her what she wants. Also Jormags needs to do is whisper and talk to these people into believing what she provides is what they want. While it was not presented properly due to how the Champion Episode is split into such small pieces and does appear rushed in certain areas, Jormag is all about appearing benevolent and having people willingly join her instead of forcing them to join her. They have not changed anything about Jormag's method of trying to corrupt people being to always attempt to have people willingly accept becoming her minion through promises of getting what they want and desire. Except they HAVE presented this properly since the saga began, with Jormag's manipulation of Bangar, and Bangar's self admittance that he never felt like he was being mind controlled. Not to mention all the Whisper stuff in Bjora where this concept was further talked about. Champions didn't just introduce this idea, nor doesit particularly need to present it. Its been established for months now via numerous dialog.

While this is an old thread that was recently Necroed. One thing to remember is that what we see in-game is by no means an even remotely accurate scale of the game world. Just because the water passages in Southsun, or between Orr and the mainland, seem too small for ships in-game, doesn't mean they actually are in canon.

> @"Teratus.2859" said: > That's the thing though, Bangar knew what he was doing.. he knew he was being manipulated Except he didn't. In fact, he explicitly says he believed he WASN'T being manipulated, but with how everything turned out, wonders if he was the whole time. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bangar_Ruinbringer#During_the_Confer_with_Bangar_achievement Player: You think Jormag always just meant to use you? Bangar: I don't know... You asked me before this, I would have said no chance. No one "mind-controls" Bangar Ruinbringer. But the way it played out... Was there an inflection point, a specific moment when...? If there was, I didn't know. I never felt for one second like my mind wasn't my own. But... I heard the whispers. Maybe that's all it takes. >And Human's.. well a good bunch of them decided to revive the White Mantle They never revived the White Mantle. The Mantle was never gone, they just ran off into the jungle at the end of GW1, and largely stayed there beyond sneding agents to try to manipulate Kryta. >Because we don't know where it is and it hasn't been making a problem of itself outside of some minor incidents. We know its down near Cantha >Plus there's still the whole Killing Dragons dooms the world problem that has still not been addressed yet. That's not really been an issue in regards to possibly killing Jormag and Primordus. > So sure, the civil war is over but Jormag's invasion is yet to come. Sure, but thats another plot entirely.

> @"Teratus.2859" said: > Not to us players, but the the people of Tyria. I know, I was speaking about the people of Tyria. There has been nothing to suggest the common person in Tyria would have any reason to blame us for this, and with it coming out what Jormag has done in the far north(manipulating Bangar, the attacks on Jora's Keep, and Still Water Speaking), as well as his upcoming attacks on Lake Doric, and Snowden Drifts, there is even LESS reason for the common person to Tyria to feel that way. Especially with the whole theme of Champions being us getting the last even remotely major factions of Tyria together to help fight against Jormag and Primordus's forces. >so it's best not to take everything you see in them literally. I wasn't. Obviously we never saw the Charr Homelands burning down, the Kodan putting their dead to sea, or centaurs with enslaved humans, but the overall progression of the trailer has matched up with that of the plot. * Scene 1 is the Charr Homelands = Grothmar Valley * Scene 2 is the Kodan putting their dead to rest = Bjora Marches * Scene 3 is centaurs with enslaved humans in a woodland area = Drizzlewood * Scenes 4, 5, and 6, are a sinking ship, Norn in a snowy area, and the standoff at the structure. Which are likely the DRMs, and the final standoff at the Eye. the sinking ship would be in Bloodtide, which we know will have a DRM due to the mastery point that showed up there, the snowy area is Snowden, for the same reason, and the standoff is the Eye. >I do not want Primordus to be killed off this quickly, that much i've said a number of times now and I will be very disappointed if Anet take that road. I would find it odd as well given that he isn't even awake yet. He is only waking up as per Chapter 1 Truce. >That said while i'd accept it I don't want to see Jormag wiped out this quickly either I don't think its been quickly for Jormag. Jormag has been manipulating events since Bound by Blood came out. By the time we reach the end of IBS it will be 18 months of Jormag plot. A year and a half, especially in MMO time, is forever. And we have pretty much already exploited all the big Jormag lore beats. Tooth prophecy, lost spirits, battle with Asgeir, Drakkar, etc. etc. > What I am not certain on though is how we get from where we are in the story currently to fighting a completely different dragon in a foreign country miles to the south.. Easy, with Jormag, and possibly Primordus, dead, the Deep Sea Dragon is the last of the original, evil, Elder Dragons left. Why wouldn't we take the initiative, and the momentum we have built up since forming the Pact back in core, to go off and kill the last Elder Dragon so we can end what has been nearly a decade of battle for this specific objective? There is no reason for us to not go there. Not to mention we have largely wrapped up all the major threats, and story beats, in Tyria and Elona * Kryta's war with the Centaurs? Done. Seraph pushed them back into their lands, and killed their war leader. * The Bandit/White Mantle infiltration? Done. The bandit leaders are dead, and the Mantle has collapsed. * The mystery behind the Sylvari's origins, and immunity to dragon corruption? Done. Covered in HoT. * The Pale Tree being injured? Done. Reforging Caladbolg put her back on the path to recovery. * The Nightmare Court? Largely done. There will be holdouts of any group like that, but the losses they took in core, LWS1, and HoT, would have pushed thier already few numbers into the tank. * Bangar being an idiot? Done. Charr civil war plot is ended. * The Flame Legion being evil? Done. Original leadership killed, and remnants brought back into Charr civilization with Efram at the head, * Branded problems in Charr lands? Done. Kralkatorrik is dead, Aurene is purifying the Brand, and the Charr are using thumper machines to force the last of the branded out from underground so they can be killed. * Charr/Human conflicts? Done. the treaty has been signed, and the major funders of both the Renegades, and the Separatists, have been killed. * Anything to do with the Norn? The Tooth Prophecy? The lost Spirits of the Wild? Asgeir's battle with Jormag? Drakkar/Jhavi getting revenge? Pretty much done, or in the process. * Elona issues? Forged have been mopped up. Joko is dead, and his empire collapsed. Sunspears have been restored. There is a new coalition government helping rebuild the region. Once IBS ends, the only systemic issues left in Tyria/Elona are the ghost problem in Ascalon, and the Inquest being up to no good. There really just isn't much left for us to do in Tyria right now. Even if there is no big story hook into it, there is no reason for us to not immediately go "lets go to Cantha and kill Bubbles to end this" to ride the momentum and finish the job we started back in core. I think needing a big story reason, like Jormag manipulating everyone into forcing us out, is over thinking a simple issue.

> @"Teratus.2859" said: > As it stands atm this whole fighting on 2 fronts thing is being more set up as our fault.. I don't see this is in any way being set up as our fault. There's been no point so far where we got the blame for any of this. Bangar is the one with most of the blame, for letting his paranoia get to him, and go on the whole crusade to wake Jormag in the first place. Nor do I see a significant portion of Tyria buying into Jormag's attempts to sell that line when its clearly not helpful either. What I find more likely is that, from what we know based on how many mastery points were added to the game map, there are 10 DRMs. * Chapter 1 gave us 3 DRMs * Chapter 2 is giving us 4 DRMs * Chapter 3 will likley give us the last 3 DRMs * That leaves Chapter 4 without its own set of DRMs. I've heard that there have been updates to the map area around EoTN, which fits with the original IBS trailer which ended with a large army standing in front of a structure, presumably the Eye, with Jormag's forces marching on it. I find it more likely chapter 4 will invove some final showdown at the Eye, and either Primordus lives, and then moves down to Cantha to take out Bubbles, absorb its power, and become the Dragon of Dragons so to speak, or with Primordus and Jormag's deaths, and their energies rushing off to Aurene and Bubbles, we have to go down there to end it once and for all, with Aurene sensing a disturbance in the force as she did when Jormag woke. Primordus living and going down to Cantha would fit with the EoD logo, which, unlike all previous logos, shows two dragons. One underwater, and one above water. Primrodus and Bubbles? Jormag and Bubbles?

> @"Fueki.4753" said: > The commander didn't smash Ryland to pieces as soon as possible. > To me, that's far more than enough of an indicator that the commander is buying into Jormag's story. Not being a psychopath who just kills everything on sight doesn't mean your buying into anything.

> @"draxynnic.3719" said: > I don't think we're likely to see the Commander buy in to what Jormag is saying here. The Commander has been pretty consistently supportive of Braham in previous parts of the Icebrood Saga, and was pretty sceptical of Ryland, his relationship to Jormag, and the Frost Legion in "Truce". I don't think it's going to be the Commander being the gullible one here - if nothing else, the Commander is keeping in mind the prophecy involving Braham and expecting it to come to a head _sometime._ This. The Commander hasn't ever bought into Jormag's BS this whole Saga, and I don't see them doing it now. Even back in episode 2 when Braham, Rytlock, and Crecia, fell under the Whisper's power it was the Commander who fought it.

So part 1 gave us the Crystal Bloom, and Seraph, allied factions. Part 2 is giving us the Stone Dwarves, and based on the release page's comment about "floating" the Exalted. Part 3 looks like its giving us the Tengu, Skritt, and a 3rd one... possibly Kodan? based on the trailer for part 1. Also, given that one of the new DRMs is located in Snowden Drifts, I wouldn't be surprised if they include the ruined Owl lodge in it, and we got some more info about Owl's return in it.

> @"Svennis.3852" said: > I don't see why it's difficult for you to grasp the idea they likely had a different plan before this update that involved a longer story for Icebrood Saga and didn't lead into an expansion, which caused several creative leads to leave the company within a short time frame. Because we have direct evidence that it isn't true, and any argument that it is amounts to a conspiracy theory.

> @"Svennis.3852" said: > 2. Faaaaaaaar shiverpeaks, focusing on Norn and the Spirits of the Wild - perhaps returning to their ancestral homelands. We did that with Bjora Marches, and Drizzlewood. the northern edge of Bjora is just south of the furthest known northward Norn settlement from GW1.