Arius.7031

> @SkyShroud.2865 said:

> Again, I don't see the points. So what if you think DH is different? **DH simply does not have a higher populations data value than CD.**

>

> This is not moral judgement, this is rationalizing, you are in denial.

Perhaps, to see my points, you should read what I'm saying not what you feel like I'm suggesting? I've said repeatedly we have lower population according to Anet's metric, and the metric seems flawed, and the OP may be completely wrong about Dh being made host. All I'm saying is, if you set aside that faulty metric, there is a point to giving a new server host... and that makes sense to be Dh. That doesn't mean it should be done, because we don't have access to much data to prove one way or another CD Vs. Dh's true sizes... except that they have more overall hours/manpower, which means almost nothing.

I get it, you go by the anet metric... the metric discussion was done the moment the dev said that metric favored CD. Not talking about that anymore.

> @SkyShroud.2865 said:

> > @Arius.7031 said:

> > > @SkyShroud.2865 said:

> > > Did you conveniently forget SBI lost last week? This spike in activity demonstrate the server's inconsistency and inconsistency should not be confused with sustainability.

> > >

> > > There is really no point in arguing with me about this. In the past, I once warned about flaw of the new population algorithm, not many cares, most just downplay it. I also talk about the different flaws and ways to fix it, people don't care. I also once said this, people will only care if it the issues surface right at their doorstep. Even a dev once told us that we don't have all the perspectives on the issue thus imply our suggestions will not work. Now, I'm no longer motivated to list the flaws and suggest ways to fix it, likewise the many others who once partake in the same motive.

> > >

> > > You can only play by the current rules, by the current designs, anet devs made it clear. Boost your populations, boost your play hours.

> >

> > 1. I didn't say it's sustainable or would be sustained. It may or may not be.

> >

> > 2. Did you conveniently forget that an xpac just launched and a bunch of new/old players came back, that people are finally joining WvW again after finishing their pve, and this will affect servers differently? To run few a few things you may not have considered: Darkhaven has an edgey name that draws lots of new guys to it, Dh has always had a massive PvE pop (which was proven during WvW seasons), we transferred a good few people over to Darkhaven recently (Cough, hint, thread starter wasn't on dh a little bit ago), and so on... There are a lot of factors that *could* contribute to a stable increase in Dh's population, not some random fluctuation.

> >

> > 3. "The server" doesn't even make sense, we're two servers. Are you saying we're both the exact same inconsistent server? SBI? Dh? What are you even saying? Fluctuation happening during a turbulent time (you know, an expansion launching) is to be expected.

> >

> > 4. We lost last time... granted... the expansion just launched, everything is changing and in fluctuation at the moment. That doesn't mean we won't sustain a greater benefit from that fluctuation than you will, simply because it is fluctuating

> >

> > I don't disagree with you that we all have to play by the rules. I'm not saying Jeknar's petition is right or should be heeded, just that the fundamental idea is not as unsound as people are saying IMO. Maybe I'm completely wrong, who knows.

>

> 1. You are right, my bad.

>

> 2. And that is the same for every server, not only your server is undergoing xpac cause and effect. Also, OP was from DH, he or she is just moving around servers and now back to his or her old server.

>

> 3. You are trying hard to convince yourself of certain things, it reminded me of some self proclaim server leaders' mindset. Just to break your conviction a little, DH had once tried hard to regain host status by getting guilds from other servers, guilds went there but it didn't regain host status. At the same time, its off hours, particularly your timezone, sea, was capable of fielding a blob and when combined with DB's, it was 2 maps queued at peak. All of those are the past but not a distant past, it happened earlier this year.

>

> I have zero idea what you are trying to convince others at. **DH simply does not have a higher populations data value than CD**, nothing more, nothing less.

>

> If you want to argue about population algorithm, then, please refer to the below.

>

> _When Trade Union fight for the rights, I did nothing.

> When Labor Union fight for the rights, I did nothing.

> When Human Right fight for the rights, I did nothing.

> When I fight for the rights, no one left to fight with me._

>

> In other words, people once questioned about the population algorithm, you did nothing. If you try to argue it now, it is just a bias opinion.

2. We're all undergoing the same turbulent time (pof launch) that doesn't mean it'll affect us all equally. I gave a few reasons as to why it might affect Dh differently than SOME other servers. Put it this way, you and I are in a car. Car crashes. I'm wearing a seat belt in a seat with an airbag, I'm banged up but alive. You're not, you fly through the window and hit a tree. We both got hit by the same outside force, but because of other factors it affected us differently. That's the point I'm making: Dh is a natural draw to new players because of it's name, with a massive amount of latent pveers who may be dipping their feet in WvW for the first time. I'm not saying this necessarily means we WILL gain more than a lot of other servers, just that we MIGHT.

Also, Jeknar is from ET. I would know, as I'm one of the ones who first convinced him to move to Dh years ago now at this point. I'm a launch player, so is he. He was not on Dh for a very long time, I however have been since launch.

3. What specifically am I trying to convince myself of? I've agreed Dh's raw numbers are not, according to the algorithm, up to par with CD's. I've never fought that contention. That doesn't mean we don't have more real numbers due to loyalty/activity, whereas many cd at this point seem to just be afk farming pips. Have you fought CD much lately? They're dead compared to even TC which is dead compared to sbi/dh. TC is full like SBI (iirc, correct me if I'm wrong), yet when paired with FC they're not even close to Dh/SBI's population.

As to your moral judgment that I should have fought more against server pairing, I had quit since a few months after HoT launch, I wasn't around at the time even. It's not even possible for me to have done what you're saying I must have for some reason.

> @SkyShroud.2865 said:

> Did you conveniently forget SBI lost last week? This spike in activity demonstrate the server's inconsistency and inconsistency should not be confused with sustainability.

>

> There is really no point in arguing with me about this. In the past, I once warned about flaw of the new population algorithm, not many cares, most just downplay it. I also talk about the different flaws and ways to fix it, people don't care. I also once said this, people will only care if it the issues surface right at their doorstep. Even a dev once told us that we don't have all the perspectives on the issue thus imply our suggestions will not work. Now, I'm no longer motivated to list the flaws and suggest ways to fix it, likewise the many others who once partake in the same motive.

>

> You can only play by the current rules, by the current designs, anet devs made it clear. Boost your populations, boost your play hours.

1. I didn't say it's sustainable or would be sustained. It may or may not be.

2. Did you conveniently forget that an xpac just launched and a bunch of new/old players came back, that people are finally joining WvW again after finishing their pve, and this will affect servers differently? To run few a few things you may not have considered: Darkhaven has an edgey name that draws lots of new guys to it, Dh has always had a massive PvE pop (which was proven during WvW seasons), we transferred a good few people over to Darkhaven recently (Cough, hint, thread starter wasn't on dh a little bit ago), and so on... There are a lot of factors that *could* contribute to a stable increase in Dh's population, not some random fluctuation.

3. "The server" doesn't even make sense, we're two servers. Are you saying we're both the exact same inconsistent server? SBI? Dh? What are you even saying? Fluctuation happening during a turbulent time (you know, an expansion launching) is to be expected.

4. We lost last time... granted... the expansion just launched, everything is changing and in fluctuation at the moment. That doesn't mean we won't sustain a greater benefit from that fluctuation than you will, simply because it is fluctuating

I don't disagree with you that we all have to play by the rules. I'm not saying Jeknar's petition is right or should be heeded, just that the fundamental idea is not as unsound as people are saying IMO. Maybe I'm completely wrong, who knows.

> @SkyShroud.2865 said:

> > @Arius.7031 said:

> > > @SkyShroud.2865 said:

> > > If DH is truly a host server size then SBI won't be in tier 4, why would two host servers qualified link be in T4?

> >

> > So we determine server size by ppt now? You realize we destroyed CD and TC, and we're currently competing with two double links (who, btw, both have some of the largest non host servers in SF and EBay).

> >

> > SBI's NA sucks at ppt. If you knew SBI, you'd know that. We nearly always have more numbers in NA than our opponents, and nearly always have a weak ppt to show for it. That's why we're placed lower. Note the amount of kills we get, and the kdr, and how we consistently beat non tier 2 servers in those regards. Only server in all of NA with more kills than us right now, is JQ.

>

> No. The reason is simple. Your link as a whole simply does not have sustainable coverage throughout the entire week which is further supported by the devs mentioning your server, DH, overall play hours is lesser.

>

> While CD might be closer in term of populations/play hours to DH, yet if the data numeric is higher by just "1" is enough to justify CD as host server. Your best bet to become host server is just to get more people or play even longer hours. Btw, I estimate it takes about a month time to reflect in the data.

>

Our link doesn't have sustainable coverage through the entire week, you say this while we're still winning on tuesday. You may be right, we may trail off on week, but that was sort of my point. Our coverage falters largely because our off hours can't pick up the slack of the really poor showing our NA numbers give. If SBI's NA were more competent in terms of ppt (which is not people's goals always and I respect that), there would be no competition between t3/4 and sbi/dh.

Further, the idea that the best and only way to determine which servers has more pop is by mere hours is kind of silly. Servers WvW differently, many servers have insane amounts of hours spent just afk pip farming. The idea that all servers do this to the same degree is silly. It's a well known fact many servers are more casual/pve oriented than others, some more fights inclined and some more ppt inclined. Not all are equal.

> @SkyShroud.2865 said:

> If DH is truly a host server size then SBI won't be in tier 4, why would two host servers qualified link be in T4?

So we determine server size by ppt now? You realize we destroyed CD and TC, and we're currently competing with two double links (who, btw, both have some of the largest non host servers in SF and EBay).

SBI's NA sucks at ppt. If you knew SBI, you'd know that. We nearly always have more numbers in NA than our opponents, and nearly always have a weak ppt to show for it. That's why we're placed lower. Note the amount of kills we get, and the kdr, and how we consistently beat non tier 2 servers in those regards. Only server in all of NA with more kills than us right now, is JQ.

> @Reverence.6915 said:

> I never play NA prime. I’m at work during those hours. I’m an OCX to SEA player. Something DH seems to not have any of

We don't have OCX, we have SEA though. I guess you've missed SotD and JNT lol? I'm also a SEA player and most of SBI's SEA seems to me to be Dh, not SBI. You must factor in Dh is mostly sorted into smaller guilds who run together, we don't pug around on main tag as much as SBI does.

> @Lunateric.3708 said:

> > @Jeknar.6184 said:

> > > @Reverence.6915 said:

> > > If DH was visible in the SBI linking at all I’d consider supporting the move. Every time I tag up (2-3 times a week), DH would make up less than 1/4 of the squad. Usually just 1 or 2 people in a squad of 20-30 people.

> > >

> > > Considering the position of SBI on the ladder, you want... host status?

> >

> > I stumble in Dh people much more often than on SBI. Granted, I don't run with squads unless I am extremely bored.

> > There are times of the day when the only tagged person is from Dh and SBI pugs are nowhere to be found. Yes, most of Dh NA is problably long gone (Although I can still name quite a few NA guilds who still run regularly) but Dh is definetely out there and in much more numbers than you claim.

> >

> > In the other hand, when I'm on my alt on BP, all I see are BP tags and guilds running. CD is nowhere to be found outside the ocasional [VII] raid. I can't remember the last time I saw a queue on my alt for the past link.

> >

> > And for SBI position in the ladder, Have you thought about questioning your own server? There is a certain trio of guilds in SBI that sometimes have a map queued for themselves but the only thing we own in that map are 2 camps and a paper spawn tower.

>

> You're turning your arguments into subjective, biased remarks. You don't really know numbers or statistics about anything server related but truth be told SBI is a server several times bigger than DH in WvW.

It's not subjective or biased that Dh is the only very high server not host. It's not subjective or biased that Dh has always had strong off hour coverage (probably stronger than CD even if we're smaller overall, we have JNT/Sotd, remember). It's not subjective or biased that CD, as a host, has had it rough for ages and it's stale in that tier largely due to how small CD is. That's not to say Jeknar is correct but the idea that what he's saying is purely subjective or biased is simply false. There's a reasonable argument to be made that something different from CD should be tried, even if it ends up not being true, there are valid points to be made. If that's the case, the natural answer is Dh who is the largest non-host server by pretty well every metric.

Dragonhunter feels more interesting and entertaining from a gameplay perspective. Combos and versatility make it fun for small scale roaming an 1v1s. Firebrand feels boring to actually play imo, and I think it's a detriment to the WvW Meta for sure.