Lethion.8745

They won't fix Mesmer. Anet takes only bottom tier into consideration when balancing PvP and all of our calls are pointless.

Am I the only one who feels this way? I feel like Mesmer traits need a big rework. I know all classes have some questionable traits but Mesmer has way too many of those. Some of them are not even situational, but straight up garbage. Namely:

**Persistence of Memory:** The idea is cool., but the synergy is not enough. In the best case scenerio, in a dedicated PoM build, Boon generation will be around the same level as classes like Revenant, Reaper, Weaver (which is unlikely tbh) The only good synergy it has is with Phantasmal Fury, which is funny because Mesmer doesn't really need more Fury, thanks to Master Fence.

**Phantasmal Haste:** Most likely is designed to be used together with PoM. The problem is, Ranger has access to same the amount of quickness with 1 trait. Mesmer needs to take 2 traits for it. If you don't use PoM, it's just 1 second of quickness, which is laughable. The Quickness on phantasms is nothing meaningful. Also, Phantasm skills are not really spammable, unless you are in a raid.

**Phantasmal Force:** This trait could be fine if Might was applied BEFORE Phantams attacks. In it's current version, it makes no sense for solo content. Mesmer's Might application is non-existent. You have to jump through too many hoops to make this trait work and even when you do, it's not worth it. If you don't have a Druid girl/boyfriend, there is literally 0 reason to use this trait.

**Furious Interruption:** Interupt traits are obviously meant to be used in PvP. The thing is, Qucikness is not as valuable in PvP as it is in PvE, not for Mesmer's at least. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice and strong Boon when you gain it over a utility skill or a simple trait, but when it's tied to such a situational condition, with 3 seconds cooldown and 2 seconds duration, it's just another instance of jumping through too many hoops.

**Chaotic Interruption:** Do I even need to explain this one?

**Restorative Mantras:** They could just rework this trait as "reduce recharge time of Mantra charges", instead of giving 3 charges. I have no idea why they went too far from the original. And I have no idea why heal doesn't trigger in use of charges. You never want to re-cast your mantras unless you were forced to use both charges.

**Protected Phantasms:** Another PoM trait. No need to repeat same things over and over again. Tho, this one is espeically bad because it's a trait in a support specialization which synergizes only with a trait from a DPS specialization.

**Mental Defense:** There so many wrong things about this trait, I don't even know where to beigin. The activation condition is too out-of-control. Cooldown is too long. Taunt duration is too short. Radius is too small. It doesn't block anything meaningful. Damage is pitiful and so on.

**Delayed Reactions:** Another PvP trait since neither CC or Slow are the core parts of a PvE build. The mechanic is fine, the problem is Slow duration is only 1 second for PvP. And it has 3 seconds cooldown for some reason. You might think that Slow is a very strong Condition on players, so it's reasonable. But, what is the point of Slowing someone who is already CCed? Since it only lasts 1 seconds, most of the time, it will go off before the enemy starts attacking again.

**All's Well That Ends Well:** This trait rarely works because people rarely stay in your wells during it's completion (sometimes even in raids lol) If the heal was on cast or pulses, might be more useful but still doubtful.

-Just revert this, please. It doesn't make sense that the class who introduced Alacrtiy to the game is outshined by another class in Alacrity application. I am fine with it not being special to Chrono but please... Anyway

**Lost Time:** This thing is not even a trait. This thing is just a placeholder. Chronomancer has only 2 Major Grandmasters.

**Danger Time:** The same issue with Phantasmal Force. I guess whoever is responsible for Mesmer in the balance team is married with a Druid or they are stritcly against Mesmers being solo players. For clarity's sake, this trait is not bad. Heck, it's even OP for organized PvE. But I don't find the design idea very healthy. When you are in your own, this trait does little to nothing. When you are in a raid, it makes you top DPS. In general, I believe such extreme edges are not healthy for the overal balance of the game.

As for the missplaced traits, what bothers me most is although everyone; Mesmer players, non-Mesmer players and balance team, are sick of Condi Mesmer, there is some condi damage squezed in nearly every spec.

**Cry of Pain:** To be honest, this is kind of too strong to be a Minor Adept. Also, Illusions is the specialization where Shatter traits are. When you are playing Power Shatter build (which what most Shatter builds are) this trait is just meaningless. I don't know where this should go, but I know the trait which could be moved to this speccialization.

**Empowered Illusions:** As every other Mesmer player said for thousand times too. this shouldn't be in the same row with Bountifull Blades. This trait shouldn't even be in Domination specialization. You have that trait which increases the damage of your _illusions_ And there is that specialization named _Illusions._ Hmm...

**Sharper Images:** The same issue with Cry of Pain. I might accept Cry of Pain being a Minor if we disregard it's strength and the other canditate for the spec. It's mostly a condi heavy specialization. But Dueling is a specialization which is either used with Power builds or Power-Condi hybrid builds. Why there is a non-optional, Condi build only trait in this line? I can't see the point of it. When you play Mesmer with Condi build, you don't have any wasted traits since non-hybrid Condi items have Precision too and it allows you to work with Dueling traits. You don't have any wasted trait in Illusions either. But if you decide to go full on Power, there is only Domination which you can get full benefit from. For other speccializations, you can't avoid having useless traits.

Lastly, Honorable Mention

**Dune Cloak:** Most people see this as a useless trait, but I think it's missplaced. It just can't compete with the other two. If it was Adept or Master with a little tune down, I belive it could be very useful.

Before the ending, I want to remind that the problem that I see is not any one particular trait among the ones that I listed. I know some of you will say "actually, x trait is useful when" Yes, I know. You can make everything work if you believe hard enough. The problem is not that X trait is weak. In my opinions, the Mesmer's biggest problem is there are too many of those X traits. Thanks for reading :)

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> That's an organized PvE trait. So I guess you mean: "work efficiently in competitive modes."

> The answer is probably "no", because the extra damage that this trait offer to the phantasms aren't exactly needed in competitive modes where either the said fanstasm might be destroyed before doing it's job (WvW/large scale) or you'll simply not have the support behind you to gain high might (sPvP/solo roaming).

I figured out it's best usage is organized PvE but isn't Dueling+Domination better in all cases? I see no reason to replace one of those lines with Illusions unless you are F2P.

Because I couldn't.

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> I think you're better off playing chrono and using the shield because Tides of Time has no target limit.

I wasn't trying to get achivement. It was just a coincidence. :)

So I was playing with Mirage in open world. Obviously I didn't have any shield equipped but my Phantasmal Defender killed some adds and I got Shield Master achivement off of that. Maybe it's already common knowledge but I was pretty suprised and I think it's a pretty neat feature.

Wow, so much comments on this. Thank you guys for the rephrase idea. I took 'Léthion' instead of 'Lethion'

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> No. Names are unique throughout the game. Sorry.

Damn, so unfortunate. Thank you.

The name I want to use is taken and I want to know if I might be able to take it if I change server.

Thank you everyone for your helpful posts. I didn't expect to get this much feedback. I decided it to give it a try but I'll most likely keep Gw2 as a second option till Anet pumps some fresh blood into PvP

> @"Widmo.3186" said:

> Ded .

Thank you fellow quaggan. That was very informative.

Hi everyone. I used to be a mesmer-main PvP heavy player. Tho I was mostly playing in plat rank, I consider myself more of a casual player. I stopped playing roughly half of a year ago. How things changed since then? I especially want to know if PvP is dominated by 2 or 3 build-class combinations. How is diversity in PvP? What's the state of mesmer? Lastly, are you happy with the state of PvP in general. If not, what is the main problem for you? I skimmed through the topics but naturally people only complains in such forums which generally makes the situation seem worse than it actually is. Please be objective and don't denigrate. I just don't want to be missinformed.

I just don't understand All classes in the game has 2 elite specs except mesmer. Were devs too lazy? Couldn't they find any ideas for mesmer? If that's the case, I think something time related would fit well to the general thematic of the mesmer. It could support allies by speeding them up and debuff enemies by slowing them down with time magic. I think it would be cool and might be called chronomancer. What's your opinion guys? Why do you think mesmer has only mirage as elite spec and what its second elite spec could be?

> @"Mighty Sorceress.2387" said:

> > @"Lethion.8745" said:

> > > @"Alek Seven.2374" said:

> > > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > Man these nerfs are weak. We should go much further:

> > > >

> > > > F1, also does shatter damage to you.

> > > > F2, also confuses you.

> > > > F3, also daze.

> > > > F4, not only it should not do distortion, it also shall have 30 secs longer CD.

> > > >

> > > > I think this is fair consider how amazingly awesome chrono shatters are.

> > >

> > > YES! We need IP back BUT, with the trade-off that all shatters negative effects will be applied on you.

> > >

> >

> > Or.. maybe just shatter youself too together with your illusions. Maybe we were the illusion all along?

> >

> > Ah, wait. That was mirage. Nevermind.

>

> can we call it kamishattermancer?

Sure we can, fellow quaggan.

> @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > @"Alek Seven.2374" said:

> > All I see here is BadMed got banned and made another account and did this tread.

>

> So all you're left with now is baseless posts like this that add absolutely no value? At least my claims for mirage nerfs are on point with what needs to happen.


> @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> That's amazing, but you're giving more ideas to dev. Please don't.

Nobody is playing anyway. Can't go worse

> @"Alek Seven.2374" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > Man these nerfs are weak. We should go much further:

> >

> > F1, also does shatter damage to you.

> > F2, also confuses you.

> > F3, also daze.

> > F4, not only it should not do distortion, it also shall have 30 secs longer CD.

> >

> > I think this is fair consider how amazingly awesome chrono shatters are.

>

> YES! We need IP back BUT, with the trade-off that all shatters negative effects will be applied on you.

>

Or.. maybe just shatter youself too together with your illusions. Maybe we were the illusion all along?

Ah, wait. That was mirage. Nevermind.

> @"Lethion.8745" said:

>There is a chronomancer in both teams in nearly every single PvP match.

>Chronophantasma ( It lacks counterplay and too dominant in PvP. It's creating degenerate play and there is no direct solution to this issue. You know what? Just better disable it untill you find something new and fair to replace it) This trait is disabled.

İ thought these two was obvious enough. LoL

> @"Antycypator.9874" said:

> I have better idea.

> Remove chronomancer and create new elite spec instead. It should be called "Nothingmancer".

>

No. They shall suffer for their sins.

We all know that Chrono is overperforming in every possible game mode. There is a chronomancer in both teams in nearly every single PvP match. WvW is full of zerging Chronos. They are able to solo all meta events. It's so good at both damaging and supporting that people are making 10 chrono raids. Anet should address this issue as soon as possible and remove this toxicity from game to make it playable for everyone again. These are my suggestions on how to balance this disgusting and compeletly broken spec.

Before going deep in traits, let's start with skills

New shatters were supposed to be a trade-off for having acces to such incredibly strong spec, right? How is that a trade if all shatters have an extra effect in addition their original ones. You just trade your ability to shatter without clones (which actually doesn't make any difference. Who does shatter without clones anyway?) with those new effects. This has to be changed.

Split Second (F1) No longer deals increased damage to slowed foes.

Rewinder (F2) No longer recharges itself for each clone shattered.

Time Sink (F3) No longer applies slow

Continuum Split (F4) (This one is especially broken so additional changes must be made) No longer gives Distortion. Only resets weapons skills.

Weapon Skills

Echo of Memory (Shield-4) (Block is already incredibly strong. It even gives protection and slow. There is no need for having it twice. I would also remove the phantasm summoning but as the design goes, all off-hand weapons has to have a phantasm skill. But still I encourage anet to consider remove it from this one. It's already overpowered.) No langer has the chain skill Deja Vu.

Tides of Time (Shield-5) (Double aoe stun with projectile block is already insane. There is no reason have it give Alacrity and Quickness) No longer gives Quickness and Alacrity.

Wells

Well of Eternity (The amount of heal is already too much for AoE heal. It shouldn't remove conditions. Also you don't have to be inside of well for initial heal. That's against the whole point of wells.) No longer Removes Conditions. You no longer receive the initial heal if you are not inside of well.

Well of Action (You are either a supportive skill or an offensive skill. You can't be both. Besides quickness is the most broken mechanic in the game) No longer applies slow. No longer deals damage.

Well of Calamity (Same issue with Well of Action) No longer applies chill. No longer deals damage.

Well of Precognation (This one is truly overloaded. It already breaks stun so stability is too much.) No longer restores endurance. No longer gives Stability.

Well of Calamity (It applies too many conditions for such high damage skill. We must be able to step out from it at least) No longer applies cripple. No longer applies Weakness.

Well of Gravitiy (The amount of aoe cc this skill has blows my mind. It must be reduced. Damage is also not asked for such strong control ability) No longer pulls. No longer deals damage.

Traits (Now it's the real juicy part)

Delayed Reactions (There is no difference between 3 second internal cooldown and no internal cd at all. It must be increased) Interval for same target is increased to 10 seconds.

Time Catches Up (Superspeed makes it impossible to avoid shatters. And chronos shouldn't be able to deal so much dmg people in cc. It leaves no counter play options) Activating a shatter gives illusions swiftness instead of superspeed. Shatters no longer deals increased damage to movement impaired foes.

All's Well That End's Well (The amount of aoe burst heal this provides makes it unfair to other supports) The amount of heal is reduced by 50%.

Flow of Time (Given that the ability of spamming illusions chrono has, the duration stacks up too quickly) Boon duration no longer increases for each clone is shattered.

Danger Time (Additional critical chance alone is overpowered. Why give it additional damage too) No longer deals increased damage to slowed enemies.

Illusionary Reversion (Chronomancer already summons too many clones and this traits encourages shattering them mindlesly) Now it has a internal cooldown for 10 seconds.

Improved Alacrity (This is supposed to be a trade off which gains value with boon duration. Current verion is a win regardless of your current boon duration bonus) Now the alacrity duration is decreased to 50%.

Time Marches On (Infinite 25% movement speed bonus with no trait points spent is competely insane. I see, Chronomancer is all about speeding up but reduced incoming cc is just too much) No longer reduces the the duration of incoming movement-impairing conditions.

Lost Time (Same issue with Delayed Reactions) Internal cooldown is increased to 10 seconds

Sezie The Moment (Same issue with Flow of Time) Boon duration no longer increased for each clone is shattered.

Chronophantasma ( It lacks counterplay and too dominant in PvP. It's creating degenerate play and there is no direct solution to this issue. You know what? Just better disable it untill you find something new and fair to replace it) This trait is disabled.

These are just my ideas of course. Feel free to share yours.

> @"Gogdarth.6741" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

>

> All you're showing is that Chrono's slow reliance is a toxic double-edged sword that makes it a bad DPS everywhere but in Raids where you stack a bunch of them for a chrono 7-way. For the record, if you have to stack same class x7 or with a very specific condi-pair to make it a good DPS actually, then it's very safe to say that it's straight up toxic with it's restrictiveness towards other DPS options and should be reworked.

>

> I have no idea how come people claiming that chrono's good for Open World either, because there are things that have way better survival perks (remember, you're playing alone - not dying is kinda important, and Chrono literally lost Mesmer's most defensive button lol), or things that have way better self-generated damage. PvP modes - fully dead, Jim, and new traits make it even worse than after the initial IP blow. I tried it. It felt like I was slapping myself repeatedly, because people literally can avoid my damage by walking backwards now.

>

> @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 , @Robert Gee.9246 , Imma gonna ping you both as other dude above did, because I really want answers about how's that a thing and why arguably one of the most interesting specs with the coolest mechanic ever (CS) to grace GW universe is so bad now. Can we please hear something? The design goals? Is Chrono being beaten repeatedly because it's balanced around that one part of PvE in a game with at least 2 other gamemodes and with PvE that is much bigger than just raids? I'm not being melodramatic, hopefully, but there's no way to put it lightly - these "advantages" to Chrono that people use to claim that "it's fine" are actually terrible as well, because stacking 7 of the same class for it to be top DPS is not fine, ekshully.

>

> And please, oh please, if this reaches anyone's eyes upstairs - guys, if you're going to do anything about this and actually communicate, please do it soon. It's already been long enough, and despite you asking for feedback and people very reasonably being like "what about your awful chrono changes" you gave us radio silence. All we are asking for is clarity, and hopefully improvement (though I'll be hard-pressed to call myself hopeful after all Mesmer was through and still goes through to this day for years).

I couldn't point it out any better. Imagine there was a skill that reads "Deal 100k dmg if you have 25 stacks of might, enemy is not facing you, it's Friday night, there are no Asuras in your current zone, choyas speak to you and you are walking backwards." In your perspective such skill should be considered strong and even broke. In fact, it's just toxic as he said and badly designed. I already pointed the correct way of balancing such mechanic in the first post; Reduce the dmg, increase the slow application. Also those things that other supports cannot do and chrono can like portal are not part of the Chronomancer spec. We are complaning about chronomancer spec not mesmer as a whole.

They just deleted Lost Time and splitted Delayed Reactions into 2 traits. I couldn't imagine a nerf more intense than this. And we were wishing buffs for Chrono. OMEGALUL

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> Chrono in pve is extremly bad. That is why it is still best option on 80 percent of bosses in raids.

I suppose you're talking about Support Chrono. I knew someone was going to come up with this. I won't say it's bad but why would I spend a month or more for full minstrel gear which will have no use outside of raids? Chrono in raids exists only for quickness and alacrity and both can be done by other supports too, namely Revenant and Firebrand. Both can be played in WvW as a support with the same gear they play with in raids and they are even top tier in that manners so your efforts for support gear will have a big pay off. Mesmer is already bad for WvW because of many reasons and Chrono makes it only worse. Personally, if I was to gear up a support for raids, Chrono would be my last choice. There is nothing that Chrono can and other supports can't. Not even mentioning that it has the worst healing among all possible supports (Heck, even new support warriors have better healing than Chrono now)

> @"Painbow.6059" said:

> I mean, Boon Chrono is still a strong build in raids, and Power Chrono is good if you have consistent slow application (namely stacking power chronos or a condi renegade). Power Chrono is also very strong for open-world due to the amount of self-boon application along with burst it has. You can play Condi Chrono (DPS) for like 2 raid encounters, although it's still worse than Mirage on both. I dunno like in regards to PvE Chrono is still a great class, just not fractals

As I already mention Chrono completley relies on other for slow application and no one takes traits that applies slow for PvE. There is only Revenant who applies slow by default and they are not the most popular dpsers in PvE. For open worlds, I am not saying it's unimportant but it shouldn't be focus of balance changes for any profession.

> @"otto.5684" said:

> Personally, never a fan of chrono, but I do not understand Anet changes either. You would think 4 years in, Anet would have a clear vision of how chrono should perform, but that clearly is not the case.

>

> I also do not understand Anet obsession with slow as being an extremely powerful debuff, cuz it surely is not. In PvE it is not different than cripple. In PvP chill, weakness, immobilize are far more effective and far more available. Heck, even cripple is more effective in many situations. And its lack of availability hurts chrono significantly.

Agreed. With the alacrity made generic,(which I actually support) Chronomancer doesn't even have a special mechanic anymore. Those new shatters can't be counted as one since they are worse than their originals. It's initial design was a support which speeds up allies or a control focused damage dealer which slows down enemies with time magic but it ended up worse than other proffesions in both sides. Those shatter abominations needs to be gone for good and be replaced with a new mechanic which actually makes chrono special.

I've started playing gw2 because of chronomancer. I was fell in love with it. I loved it so much that I still kept trying make it work after ridicilously overtuned nerfs. I told myself people are exaggeratting, there must be a way to make it work. But there wasn't. It was just so underwhelming and heartbreaking how much effort I have to put into to be only slightly worse than counterparts of the build in other classes/mirage.

Burst/Shatter - Mirage do it better. You can secure your combo with dodge roll. You gain regeneration, protection, vigor and def against condis by passive. You don't have to have a clone to shatter so you can go melee and shatter if you have no clone left. Chrono just doesn't offer anything than a very insignificant dmg boost.

Bunker - Mirage do it better. You might not consider a condi-like build as a Bunker build but it does exactly the same thing what a bunker supposed to do. Tons of condis and boons spam that I already mentioned plus mirage cloak and again being able to use shatters freely makes it a lot better than chrono. You can survive for ages while being outnumbered and even can win as a mirage.

Boon/Support - Chrono was supposed to be all about alacrity and quickness. I mean, alacrity was it's special mechanic and now Revenants can spam it a lot more consistently than Chrono. It's completly ridicilous. Same for Quickness, Firebrand can do it more consistently than Chrono since they don't have to USE SKILLSHOT TO APPLY 1 SINGLE BOON. Also the chrono can apply quickness and quickness only where as firebrand has all those heals, aegis spam and some other boons. Chrono support is just filler in pve now and non-existent in pvp, wvw.

Healer - Any class that has acces to aoe heal is better than chrono now. Traits that heals the group in inspiration line is nothing but a joke and chrono doesn't offer anything to make it better. Forcing people to stand in a small, barely visible circle for 3 seconds for a mediocre heal doesn't have a place in any game mode. Chronomancer has 1 less trait than other specs because of that no-sense trait.

Power/DPS - It was the only build that would worth going for chrono and it's killed too in the last patch. Damage increase on slowed enemies is cool and all but the problem is, YOU CAN'T APPLY YOUR OWN SLOW PROPERLY. So why would you want to have a dd that relies on others to reach a little above the average. No need to mention that Slow is the rarest condition in the game. Chrono's own slow on CC compeletly useless for raid/fractal and it's just not worth to take in pvp. On top of that, they added a ICD for that slow applying trait. I just can't

Condi/DPS - Everything is better because there is no such thing as Condi Chrono.

As you can see, there is not much left from what chrono offers and the thing are left are just outclassed by something else. The only elite spec that brings wells as its utility skills (before scrapper change) has the worst wells in the game. Area is small, bunch of them has unnecessary cast times. Tempest can apply 3 boons and an aura with a single shout whereas Chrono needs its party to stand still until the well ends to apply a SINGLE boon with a mediocre heal (if the trait is taken). Continium Split is so nerfed that it doesn't worth give up on distortion. (I know continium split applies distortion but it's pointless since it already reverts the damage and conditions you receive.) The buff to seize the moment is irrelevant since you relly on others for quickness uptime anyway. Also the range on that is so ridiclously low that it's not usefull out of a organized raid. Besides the reason that support side of the chrono was nerfed to ground was it's quickness spam. Why bring it back now? Why force chrono to be a quickness bot and show it as excuse to keep everything else it has undertuned? We already have firebrand to cover quickness up. I'm sure everyone would trade of quickness spam if it means we will finally have some traits that actually does something special for chronomancer. Nobody asked for chronomancer to be able to keep quickness/alacrity up indefinetly. It was inevitable that chronomancer was going to see a nerf in such situation. But this... This is just too much. Just force gaps between quickness and alacrity and everything would be fine. It is such a incredibly boring playing stlye anyway and everyone will be happy to see it go. Not for chrono but for all supports, It's not fun when your whole existence serves one sole purpose and it's to spam a single boon. When you have it gone, it will open windows for more creative playstyles for all supports.

And for the self sufficient side, if you force a spec to rely on a mechanic, than the class that has the spec must have proper acces to that mechanic. Otherwise it just doesn't make any sense. Why make so many traits that synergies with slow if chrono will not be able to apply slow consistently. "It would be too strong, if it could" is not excuse. If that's the case, proper way to balance it to tune the traits that works with slow, not to reduce acces to slow. In the current situation, slow related traits are beyond useless except Danger Time with a imaginary perma slow team. Slow fits really well to chronomancer theme so it's better remain as a part of the spec, since chrono doesn't have much to make it special. It's just a shield wielding core mesmer with worse shatter skills.

I know finding a unicorn under my bed is more likely to happen than a well-thought chrono rework but still one can dream. These are just my thoughts anyway but I know many would agree on these. Otherwise, I would really love to hear if any of you guys could point something chrono does better than anyone else.

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"Lethion.8745" said:

> > I am asking this in Thief section because I want to hear answers of thief players. How can I beat you, guys? I spent a lot of time in sPvP but I stıll couldn't figure out what should I do against thieves. I play mainly mesmer and necro(sometimes elementalist) and most of the time, I just avoid fighthing against thieves. They are too quick and it's seems impossible to catch up. They just go in, deal damage and run away or hide behind obstacles. Also my clones can't catch too when I shatter which means I lose half of my dmg. Sometimes I can counter play with stunbreak+invul combos but if thief is condi, it doesn't help it so much. I can just barely beat them with scourge thanks to instant, area fear but you know... Scourge is truely overpowered and it shouldn't be that hard to beat a thief with scourge. Anyway, I would be really thankfull if u don't mind to give me some tips^^

>

> 'Scourge is truely overpowered and it shouldn't be that hard to beat a thief with scourge'

>

> So you're complaining about Thief being unkillable yet complaining Necromancer being Op?

>

> You can't play both sides; you can't play the victim

>

> Chose

>

> * Either thief are hard to beat

> * Either thief are easy to beat

>

>

None of them. I'm just saying I don't know how to play against thief, duh.

@"Vitali.5039" Thanks for tips. I'm using greatsword with Reaper build. I tought I had edited it. ._.

@"Cynz.9437" Thanks a lot. That was very illuminating! I was aware of that bug because of Blink and Sand Swell but never tought that I can use it for my benefit lol. That's really evil. Also I tried to play thief a bit but I suck at assasin-like classes in every game :(

I will try those and inform you if it works.

I use a lot different builds but we can consider most generic ones which I use often.

Mesmer: [Mirage](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAra3fnELDVoh1qBmpBMMjlXDrsC0bCOoBgcyzx//VATgA-jJRHABIVGw89HE4kAAwTAAA "Mirage") [Chrono](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAW7encfCFqh1qBmpBEgilnjCdCynD4sACgDreQP0FF-jJRHQBA4JAcvyAH8iAYu9HAA "Chrono")

Necro: [scourge](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBLhZ6koXozGsrXwpXgtXs0NY690haSl6DMCOUTPgBQAA-jJRHQBmZ/BAcKAuXZgA+EAAA "Scourge") [Reaper](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBHbhG2JJNQLNYpNgPNA9mYpXwgGTFgAQ8TsKeFneCDhlAA-jphIQBgsMwxOIAsY/BAcEAE4DAwfnAAA "Reaper")

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> so its only about how to beat a thief in sPvP or in genral therfor also WvW / guildhall / 1on1 arena ?

> what kind of thief build you need help against and what build do you run?

>

> i play mostly in WvW and currently mostly Deadeye and for a mesmer or necro or ele or pretty much any class to kill me, i need to make a major mistake. if they are glassy i can onehit them with backstab, if not they either dont deal damage themselves or play condi and i dont care about condis cause of shadows embrace.

>

> if you answer the 2 questions maybe someone can help you. but mind that thieves are masters of escape. so we can help you how to 'survive' against a thief but if the thief doesnt want to die and that is his only goal from beginning, there is no chance you will kill him. to kill a thief you have to bait him.

>

Only sPvP. I rarely go for WvW and never others.

Edit: Actually Deadeyes are the easiest one for me cuz I don't like glass canon builds and I always have a defense skill to survive burst of deadeye. Also Deadeye burst is predictable in sPvP since you can easly keep your eye on Deadeye's Mark and incoming bullets(also sound effects)

> @"Theandil.6045" said:

> Depends what Thief is against you... If High Burst or Mobility/Condi Cleanase.

> And which Weapon set-up he is using.

>

> + you are mesmer/necro, 99% mesmer moves are High predictable, due to every mesmer play same, same goes to necro. When you learn how this both char works, is easy to counter play you.

I don't know all kind of builds thief have. But condi and the one with teleports in every second are the most problematic ones.

> @"ZhouX.8742" said:

> Ask Zeromis, he destroys top thieves in pvp with power mirage

Where can I find him :D