Trianox.3486

I might be out of tune, so please excuse my question in advance.

How is staff ambush free cancer?

I remember cMirage being a really strong spec months ago, massive dominator with FB at their release. But it wasn't just the staff thing, it was many aspects.

Now, about staff- is it that cancerous?

Not only it is a slow projectile, with a full 1 second animation, but it's only only 3 condis of one stack each (relatively low duration too) with a specific requirement to activate.

Now of course with infinite horizon there is a potential for higher damage, but it's not that worse either given the limited scenario where 10 targets actually matter, and where it is realistic to keep your illusions alive long enough, no?

Lots of target is strong in OW PvE or some limited WvW scenario, but the intensity isn't really high.

And, you talk of duel, but then refer to 10 targets... I don't quite follow the thinking there. =O

Many other skills, even autoattacks for other classes, can be as dangerous as this one, or actually even much more.

I feel I'm missing a piece of the puzzle in terms of how cancerous it can actually be. I mean, DH bursting 30 stacks of burn in 5-6 seconds is dangerous, but that staff ambush on mirage? It's not trash... But it's not exactly very good either. Were there specific ways it was being used that made it broken?

My questions are genuine. I've been trying to build a Mirage for a few weeks based on either sword or staff ambush skills, and yeaaah I'm not getting really good results compared to other classes, models, approach.

Hi! I'm playing thief main, core, Daredevil and deadeye.

I'll try to be as helpful as possible.

First, we'll clarify some contextual elements. Then we'll look at types of thieves builds you're likely to encounter. And along side, suggestions and ideas.

So first off, how to beat thief as a question is of course too short to be helpful. =) I know you know. It’s rather: how to beat/deal with X or Y build.

They cannot do it all, each build have inherent weaknesses, so you must assess which builds you fight. There are many builds and each of them is as different as, let’s say, the difference between a Staff core ele, and a sword/focus weaver.

**Here two examples:**

**Example #1) A D/D condi thief** (a bit a meme build) daredevil usually have little to no access to stealth and will look like they dodge endlessly. However, aside from 1-2 skills that you really got to dodge or cleanse, their condition ramp up time is super slow. (4x slower/lower than fire weaver for example in terms of DPS). That sort of thief/daredevil abuses death blossom, but they’re not actually invulnerable the whole time. Right before they land, you can hit, and he won’t be able to avoid/dodge.

It’s a meme build, very annoying, and the constant dodging makes the fight messy, and confusing. But Lotus Training only throws 1 stack of 2 second bleed, and 1 torment and 1 cripple, for again 2 seconds max. Lots of numbers and hits… but all tiny, you can more or less ignore that and aim to hit him when he is about to finish his death blossom animation.

**Example #2) A rifle build with Deadeye** AND Shadow Art (both with a focus on stealth) usually use either Deadly Art or Critical Strike trait line for optimizing damage outputs. They’re not great dodgers, and are extremely squishy. Indeed, to build around those “infamous” “one-shot'' strategies (which is mark, rifle 2, rifle 2, stealth, death judgement), they need to be using stats with very little vitality or toughness. They sit at anywhere between 11-17k HP.

Also, they don’t have Trickery line (therefore a small initiative pool), and therefore after a burst… they can’t do much for a few moments, use AoE on the area he used to be OR use channel ability. Channel skills will follow him through stealth.

They don’t land many hits, but each hit can deal significant damage. Reflects do wonder (Tempest Aftersheet, Earth-staff3, Earth-Focus 4, Earth-warhorn 4), so do blinds. You can punish him to 50% HP if you reflect Death Judgment.

Understanding thieves builds and their sequences of attack (combos or rotations) is very important. Aside from one example below where I'll go in detail, I'll keep it light as a start... and I’ll use generalizations, which are imperfect by definition to account for the diversity of situations, but hopefully it helps to see clear through that.

**If

Melee thief (D/D, D/P, S/D, S/P, staff) **

As soon as he gets in range for a hit (after a port sword2, dagger/pistol3, steal/swipe, dagger2)

You could: pop an aura (ideally shocking, but other will be helpful too), then go for an AoE skill centered around your character.

**If

Melee thief (D/D, D/P, S/D, S/P, staff) **

**As a weaver**: Make it messier than the thief!

So one good way, typically, is to rotate around your elements as soon as you can and alternating between your evade/daze skills, and your AoE.

One evade, followed by an AoE, followed by a utility. Rinse, repeat.

Your sword 2 (all except fire), are good: 2 evades (earth, and water) and daze (air), they do damage while being defensive as you know, and any melee thief will find that extremely annoying especially if you walk around too in “unpredictable ways”, as they’ll need to be spending their utility port, steals, AND their initiatives to keep up.

A really good combo can be:

Earth-Fire: sword3, focus 5, sword/focus3, -> water

Water-Earth: sword2, sword/focus3, focus 4 -> air

Air-Water: sword2 (daze), sword/focus3

From there, if you have the upper hand: fire, for sword2 and 3, then Earth (which brings you to the top again of the loop). If you don’t have the upper hand, you can still go for fire, but then make you you dodge, and wait to be back to Earth-Fire to re-engage.

OR if you’re still not there, earth, for and evade on sword2, focus5 for the long daze.

Arcane shield is a good stun break and defensive utility too against a melee thief, and of course don’t forget Twist of Fate as a weaver, but if you use Twist… MOVE while using it, don’t stand still.

If he goes stealth, you have 3 options:

* Use any AoE available on the potential location OR centered around yourself.

* Keep doing your rotation as if he was there

* Do an AoE and autoattack in random pattern

You can out sustain a thief this way (barrier, heal, and evades) and disturb his own rotations.

It will require way more effort from your part, but many thieves will just be completely lost in such a situation.

Also, keep in mind that you want to avoid any skills longer than 3/4sec as D/P thief will try to daze to mess up your own combos, and long activation skills offer too many chances for the thief to dodge.

Don’t expect to land everything, but some of your skills are very potent, and given thief generally low HP, you don’t actually need to land many hits to make him retreat, or even blow him up completely.

He'll easily clear off bleed/burn as you have little cover-condi as you mentionned, BUT keep in mind that thief have 4 (main) ways to clean conditions and not all of them are reliable or that when using them, there are drawbacks. Also, you can re-apply burn and bleed faster than his condi cleanse capacities unless you face a daredevil that uses multiple ways to cleanses condi, and even then, there is a trick!

- On evades (daredevil), it's silly, but if you hit less frequently, the thief will struggle more. Basically, you put on some burns, then you move away for 2 secondes, he'll eat 2 secondes of burn, and for such low HP 2-4 sec can be quite significant. This is no joke. People always fnd that suggestion silly, but you can really take the control of the rythme of the fight this way unless you play against the most skilled thieves obviously.

- On stealth -> he'll need to be out of stealth to deal his damage, so altho he will clean it quickly once he stealth, if you keep reapplying, while avoiding his most dangerous attacks, you'll gain the upper hand after 15-30 secondes of fight.

- Trickery, using withdraw (heal) or Roll for Initiatives (stun break).. will force him to spend precious defensive skills

- Utilities such as signet of agility (30 sec CD) and shadow steps (50 sec CD), 3 condis each.

**If facing condi thief P/D**

Identify whether it's a daredevil (600 range swipe) or a core thief (1200 range steal), because both can be very slippery, but in different manners.

P/D thief will port-in to you to use P/D3 Shadow strike, then blast 2X Repeater. And they’ll try to repeat that by stealing to you to port in, or using Shadow Step if they think they have the upper hand.

So now, to specific tips/hints...

1) The second he ports-in:

1.a) Dodge + daze. Using a blind can also work here. (If you are fast enough you avoid the shadowstrike if he is on core thief),

OR

1.b) Daze, do auto-attack and keep your other disabling ability after he used his break stuns such as Roll of Initiatives (50 sec CD) or his Shadowstep (also 50 sec CD). If you successfully disable him, you can try to burst, but Roll or Shadowstep are likely to have you miss your burst, so I would really advice for something that blinds and will mess up his rotation.

(If you missed your dodge (1.a) or missed your daze (1.b) and he is already gone, to to step 2))

(If he plays with Shadow Art, for bonus dmg on stealth and venom applications, and such, he's likely to steal, try a sneak attack with all the bonuses (venom trait, plus the leeching, plus maybe an actual venom skill) before doing Shadow strike, leaving you more room for a successful counter using reflect, or blinds, or else).

2.a) The second he ports-out using Shadow strike you can either port to him using a leap/port of your own, as the thief will be stuck out of "shadow strike" for a short moment, and will force him to disengage.

OR

2.b) The second he ports-out using Shadow strike, you run opposite direction and dodge, as aside from steal and shadowstep (especially if daredevil), there isn't many ways for him to get back "to" you and complete his full rotation for optimal damages.

OR

2.c) The second he ports-out using Shadow strike, you hit reflect. Why? He’s most dangerous skill is the flip skill on Shadow Strike (repeater) and it does not last forever.

3) Try to dodge or block Repeater and use range, because other ranged options for the thief are actually not that great, you can overpower the boy quite easily. If he uses stealth, go for AoE. And swap attunement for projectile negation or reflection to be ready for his next burst. P/D are quite predictable, they only really have one main way to deal damage, which is getting in range, using P/D3, repeater 2X, and rinse and repeat.

4) Sigil of cleansing to remove cover condi on attunement swap, or running either fire auras with cleanses, water with cleanses on regen, or utilities. To survive the condi burst, let cover-condi wear off before you go for your cleanse

5) Don't be fooled by the torment application. It's only 2k damage IF you move, 1k if you don't. The bleeding (or poison to a lesser extent) is threatening both because of the large volume of damage, AND in the case of poison because it weakens your heals, of course and as you know.

Try to find a thief sparring partner to test out rotation (I'm playing on NA by the way), you can ping me. Or, find the build that you struggle the most against, make a thief and bring it to PvP lobby and use each skills multiple times on dummys and foes in the training ground, you'll see how certain skills can be interupted, countered and circumvent much more easily.

Fighting a thief a always trickier because of his inate interactions.

Also, Vallun did a great video on "how to fight thief" (

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

>

> Instead of stealth, I would personally center a support thief on the shadowstep mechanic.

>

> There is already a trait in core thief which heals allies around when performing a shadowstep, an elite spec could enhance this mechanic even further with supportive features in my opinion.

>

> Also deadeye already focused on the stealth mechanic for thieves, while daredevil focused on evades/dodges.

> The third elite spec focusing on another thief mechanic than these 2 with shadowsteps sounds like a good idea for me.

100% see what you mean! (Altho that would not be "real" stealth given you'd remain visible, and I think that would totally change the playstyle)

I'd too love a model where we can have an "arcanestep" and switched (through something similar to how we select Revenant legends), and only pick 2 (out of maybe 5-6?) such as firestep, lightningstep, waterstep, etc. spawning a 240 radius combo fields, which could be enhance (radius size, or double effect of combo fields) with glyph (or else) utilities doing multiple blasts, projectile finisher 100%, etc.

We could then boost the landing effect, and have steal function as a port-in-out to ally (with ammo) on a shorter range than steal, etc.

And what ever skill using "shadowstep" could be replaced by the active "ArcaneStep"

I guess it depends.

I agree and disagree with DeceiverX

First, I would disagree that Shadow shot "insane" damage but just comparing it's damage to other thief skills dual attacks, or other most DMG oriented skills for that matter. Sword/dagger 3 is higher, sword/postal 3 is higher, pistol/dagger is also higher.

Then staff both skill 1-2 and 5 are higher by quite a significant margin.

Then, other weapon set can also make life uneasy for warrior, such as pistol/dagger.

But I would agree that aside from those combinations, warrior should have a relatively even fight when played well. Spellbreaker "should" counter thief.

Berserker can blow up thief super fast at the first thief mistake, while the thief wont kill the warrior if he only does a single mistake.

There are outplay potential on both sides and specific traits and skills that are good against the other... But then it's about how do you build yourself to resist thief vs other builds from other classes while remaining relevant. If you keep getting downed by thief and that's a recurring theme, beyond any other profession, than maybe one should consider thief-counter specific skills and traits. :-) but that's a personal choice.

> @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> I kinda do tbh.

>

> I wish they would replace stealth with something like shadow armor that increased your defenses drastically. And is not removed on attacks but keeps you visible (tradeoff). This buff can easily be shared and can be enhanced to buff allies more, grant resistance, stab, prot whatver.

>

> As a second weapon i wish for offhand sword. That would give so many more skills to choose form with all the dualwield skills. Especially if they add skills taht canon into eachother.

>

> Further i would like an ambush like skill on the dualwield skills and the one form the auto attack gets removed.

>

> This could bring so many more options.

> One trait row could focus on power damage, one on condition damage and one on support while the columns are centered arround dualwield skills, ambushes and shadow armor respectively.

Yeah, that basically what I described 6 posts above. :-D

We get a lot of perks while in stealth, condi removal, health per second, speed, etc., We can easily think of one of the 3 sub trait lines to stack further onto that with some stats and make all or most of these effect shareable.

And as for stealth attacks, they could become assassination or whatever, maybe even keep all their bonuses, but instead be on a 5-6 internal cooldown without breaking the shadow armor, and when shadow armor ends, you get the "reveal" bonuses of some of our traits? Or something along these lines.

When Crab Fear says that so far nothing remotely ressemble support, I both agree and disagree. Very little now makes for a consistent well built support build, but a lot of traits baked into stealth are defensive by nature and only lack a way to share their effects.

We could even think of Steal as a "Essence bind" or whatever fancy name allowing us to port to allies, and transfuse some of our Health... And making "steal effect shareable in a small radius" (so that Mugs hits in a 120-240 radius, and provide health to self and other), so that stealth (now shadow cloak/armor/veil) is granted in a small radius, with maybe a 240 radius dark field?

The new "stolen skills" would instead reduce stealth-attack cooldown on hit, and provide a boon/support effect + a offensive effect bases on the % health of your target. Traits could boost either the offensive or defensive effect, reduce cooldown, or whatever. :-)

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"lare.5129" said:

> > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > Just wondering, but what about the 39k damage output quoted here isn't viable?

> > this is very small value .. normal is 50+k

> > that about burst .. not about continuous average damage

> >

> >

>

> Gotcha. Last I checked viable builds did somewhere between 30k and 40k, hence why I asked. Evidently I'm out of date haha

But that is continuous 39k, it just happens to have a fast ramp up time, but it does not go beyond that point, so it's not properly a burst. Unlike let's say Chrono that can burst at 49-52k and then sustain 40k.

People seem stuck with the whole "trade-off" part, but you can also see it as a change in terms of game play.

Necro, reaper and scourge are great examples of that. They quite differently from one another.

Bottom line, all those three play very differently. You could play them similarly, more or less, but they have inherent differences. Here is your trade-off, or change.

Unfortunately, the term "trade-off" misleads into thinking about balance... while that is a whole different issue.

Of course, we could argue about power level, but that's a different story. One might argue Repear shroud or Scourge shades or whatever to be better or worse... but it depends on circumstances... and individual skills and trait lines then, and their synergies with core trait lines...!

The balance discussion isn't about whether those trade-off are sufficiant in terms of change of mechanics. It should be, in my opinion, about the disporportionate strength between "3 core trait lines" VS "1 elite + 2 core trait lines". Is it outof tune completely or not? (Then of course, we have to account that not every single combination of traits is optimal for DPS or survivability. "Everything" more or less work for open world, but not everything is enjoyable or effective, regardless of trait lines, e-specs, and individual traits you took or not.)

There are quite a few support mechanisms already, but are a bit awkward to use efficiently or consistently.

That being said, I could easily see Stealth being turned into something such as:

whenever you would grant stealth instead gain "Shadow veil/cloak" for the same duration, which does not make you invisible but rather give defensive boons and buffs (Aegis on application, protection with traits for condition damage reduction too, temporary stats boost on application, and damage reduction, maybe cannot be Crit? etc.), and share a portion of your own stealth bonuses to allies you stealth (such as cure, heal, movement speed, etc. from all our existing traits).

We already have great defensive and support capacity through stealth, it could be slightly enhance through the use of such mechanism.

You could trait more support, or more selfish or more offensive maybe. Allowing not to be Pidgeon holed into a single role either....

There could be glyph based on whether you wear or not the shadow cloak, some more offensive, some more defensive and supportive.

I agree condi thief is not amazing, as there are only very specific traits combination/builds that work.

One can reach 39k DPS on a very fast ramp up time with condi P/D deadeye, near 4-6 secondes. It's nothing to be shy off. Can't remember whether Vallun or Lord Hizen did a video a few weeks ago about that.

D/D Daredevil works okay, not for raid or fractals, unless very specific encounter to due slow ramp up time. All condi is packed into this infinite dodge approach combined with death blossom... I wish other skills such as dagger #2 or #4 would bring more condi damage that make you really choose based on circumstances between them and #3, meaning better condi thief outside of DB. I did solo pretty much everything with it, beating timers and such. But it's a tad slow. That being said, the right runes and sigils can allow you to ramp up damage faster for one-off targets, but the overall damage gets a bit lower.

*I like your suggestions.

*Either that, or I would go out and put PvE for Heartseeker: 1, 3, 5 bleed stacks at 75-50-25% HP respectively.

*I'd also add one more torment on dagger 4, PvE.

*I'd have a trait to improve bleed: +30% effectiveness/damage, or hitting a foes with 10 stacks of bleed or more put one stack of poison, or even burn. ICD 1 sec per target. (Could unfortunately boost DB too much, unless you give other skills some bleeding capacities such as heartseeker, and why not dancing daggers too.)

*For venom, I wish they would act like stances, similar to Soulbeast vulture stance, maybe a longer duration but internal cooldown of 1-2 sec per target. That would be great. Would make it for more sustained damage, and less bursty.

So, do you roam, decap and +1?

Which dodge type do you use?

What about amulets, runes, traits and utility? :+)

I've also tried "off-meta" combinations lately to catch people off guard a bit... Such as D/P condi... (lol, I know) and it works really well as +1. Basically loading out conditions and some blinds and vuln, and 1-2 interrupt and my ally can finish him off while I start running to the next target.

Aint the best, but it gets the job done, and I can run tankier stats.

> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> You are limiting yourself heavily by only using one weaponset. Why no greatsword as the other weaponset?

> You are limiting your damage heavily by picking inspiration over domination.

> Sword ambush is not that much damage so building around that doesn't make too much sense.

> Shatters are a core part of the mesmer toolkit, on powerbuilds f1 is great burst.

> You use signet of midnight but are built around power. Signet of midnight is great for condi builds because of the expertise.

>

- I was trying to get a hold of sword/pistol first, but yeah, will explore greatsword in the coming days!

- Yeaaaah Inspiration over Domination... I like what Inspiration brings to the table, but it does really sink DPS. Are all power builds Dueling+Domination + something else, or it is possible to skip either dueling and domination? And if I wanted to use Inspiration, should I go for a condi build then?

- That's sad yes, but I get it. =(

- I do use F1 as soon as the three illusion spots are filled. But it is a bit lackluster if I may say. Is there a specific timing to using that or whenever it is available and that there is something worth using it on?

- About that signet: Agree. Would you have another suggestion for a low CD stunbreak that offers other side advantages?

Hi!

**Context: **

So, I've been toying with Chornomancer and Mirage in the last couple of weeks. I'm in this weird spot where I really like the thematic of Mesmer and both the current elite specs, as well as everything else about their skills, but aint a big fan of shatters, altho I do use them. It's a bit ironic given it's a core mechanic, and I'm starting to use them more or "purpose" when I notice I have 3 filled purple dots! But... I tend to lean toward builds that do use phantasm and clones, of course, but clearly do not optimize that side of the build. I'm surely leaving loosing out on a lot of damage potential.

This build is for PvE (even if I did use it a few times in PvP for fun in unranked), and I don't mind not attaining meta DPS, as long as I don't lag too far being. I tend to play slightly off meta builds for other classes as I prefer flexibility over damage. I'm okay sacrificing 10-15% damage if I gain a lot of utility, but I don't want to be too low damage either to the point that fights last forever.

I know... "anything" works in Open world, but I'm also of the philosophy that certain builds make your journey much more pleasant because of how quickly they can move around between small packets of dispersed mob (while remaining in combat), be solid enough to not die because you didn't see a deadly hit coming your way, or being able to beat foes relatively comfortably within timers.

**Question for you, Mesmer players**

Would there be ways or advises to optimize the current following build without changing too much the play style?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PikAwqlVwSYRMImJW+S5PbA-zRRYBBLGNsxISBUJBkOA-e

Basic components:

* Power build

* Dueling + Inspiration + Mirage

* Blurred Inscription (Inspiration) + Desert Distortion (Mirage) => signets give distortion, and distortion gives ambush attack

* 2 signets + 2 deception skills + 2 dodges (PvE) + F4 = 7 opportunities for Ambush

* Rune of infiltration for some vigor to allow for more dodges/ambush

* Due to this combination and considering other traits, Signet of Midnight becomes the ultimate "espace" tool: inflicts blind, stealth 2 sec (vigor on stealth due to rune of infiltration), 5 conditions cleanse, stunbreak, distortion 1 sec, and of course, grants aegis to allies for 2 secondes.

* Jaunt (obviously) to move straight into mirrors

* Sword + Pistol

* Rotation/combo more or less looks like: Pistol 4 + Blurred Frenzy + Ambush + AA + Ambush + AA = rinse/repeat.

* Ambush is provoked by using either dodges, signets, deception skills whether I need to avoid large hits by retreating, or stick close to my target. Of course, Thurst allows to get Leap (600 range) to target.

* I alternative between all of 4 Depcetion skills, never quite sure of which one I like to most. But I tend to keep Sand Through Glass as a retreat option most of the time, and alternate between the three others... more or less randomly, still unsure of which I like the most.

* One of the many debatable trait choice is using "Dune Cloak" - I know heresy of not using Infinite Horizon... especially for the many ambushes I get, but...

Great at: sticking to your target, having decent mobility, escaping easily.

Decent: has the perk of some interesting bonuses due to Inspiration trait line.

Downsides: damage seems low (just a matter or rotation/combo that I'm not getting?), Mirage Thurst/sword ambush skill is... a tiny clunky/slow and too low damage,

Comments? Strategies? Ideas to optimize that build/play style?

Thanks in advance!

Thief is a counter example. There are many fun and very different playstyle even amongst the melee or range options themselves. You can tweak your traits and gears to make almost every style playable, but many won't really be that effective in many circumstances or will have wide open flaws, such as an inability to engage certain types of mobs/situations, or although playable your damage will drop significantly by anywhere from 10 to even 80% of meta builds.

I kind of like your analysis there Deceiver.

Here, let me throw this:

Dagger Autoattack: fine. Little low DMG for PvE, could it be boosted by 10-20%. Similar in PvP for 3rd hit only.

Heartseeker : Animation is a bit clunky, but that's okay. What about getting 1, 2 and 3 stacks of bleed for 25%, 50% and 75% PvP, and 1, 3, and 5 stacks PvE, for 1.5 or 2 seconds duration.

Rationale: It would provide a nice single target option for condi builds outside of DB and would give a reason to rotate between other skills, and not only meme-play-DB.

Death Blossom: Increase the power coefficient, or base damage by a bit. Change skill:

- A fast ground whirl 450 range in straight line, with evade and with the current damage/number of targets, followed by a flip skill with current animation but slightly faster, without evade, 2 poison and 2 torment stacks (or 2 poison 3 sec, and 6 confusion stacks 2 sec PvE, -50% duration in PvP).

Dancing dagger: From 1 to 2 stacks of torment or a low duration poison (2-3 sec) for PvE with a bit of swiftness -OR- an increase of power damage with swiftness.

Rationale: Right now, in PvE there are very rare occasions when it seems that it's a good idea to use it, and whenever I use it… it always feels a bit like "I should have kept that initiatives for something else more effective". The concept is interesting: hitting while escaping, or as an aggrow skill. But it feels like it could either loose damage and loose 1 initiative (therefore more utility oriented), OR keep current cost and be slightly boosted with boon or damage.

Cloak and dagger: fine I guess.

> @"Chrysaliss.8720" said:

> Thief is strictly a power dps class. You have to understand, that if you go condi you will be suboptimal and in group content you are likely to be rejected. With that said. If you relly wanna go condi the you need to understand your strenghts and weaknesses. As a condi thief you ae best as sort of a "burst" condi. Meaning you go with d/d and spam 3 till you run out of initiative. Then your dps falls of rapidly. Also dont use carrion gear. Use Viper gear it is far better. And as for spec you should go daredevil, because you can modify your dodge to apply conditions.

It's not.

There are a few builds that outperform power builds.

- PvE P/D deadeye build with 35-39k, single target. (I think Vallun had a video on it recently?) That's quite high in the realm of DPS.

- PvE D/D can also get some very high number and can out-DPS power builds in certain circumstances, but it has a higher ramp-up time, and is not great for bosses with invulnerability phases.

You can burst condi with D/D, but it's usually not as effective as getting the rythme right so that you optimize your DPS while keeping enough initiatives for CnD, or a heartseeker to move to next groups of targets, etc.

Technically whether you burn all initiatives or go with a slower rythme, there should be more or less the same DPS over a longer fight of a few minutes (given initiatives regenerate at a stable/fix rate anyways), but keeping your initiatives pool at 30-60% at all time offers much more flexibility.

Burning all your initiatives is usually a pretty bad idea, unless, of course you have a very short window to deal your damages.

I actually though Chronomancer would have played without "shatter",

- instead gaining a "time shard" (stack up to 3, like clones, when you cast clone/when they die/disappear), with each stack granting a pulsing AoE slow (every X second) of a wider radius, "shattering" the time shards, granting the effects of F1-2-3-4 based on the number of shards... Etc.

More shards mean longer time split, but time.split would not be depending upon the number of active summons but rather based on the number of stacked time shards, same for each F-skills.

- we could also have had some sort of phantasmal armor/cloak that we could "shatter" for each summon again stacking more charges/levels/effects whether based on active summons or based on summons that died. Each charge/stacking lasting a defined amount of time? Each stack grant defensive capacity which you sacrifice for a big hit/effect when you shatter.

All traits would therefore still be valid/workable.

Thief damage burst are often very one trick-poney most of the time.

And insta save buttons with stealth isn't really useful in zerg.

Even tho evades allow to evade unlimited hits, that sort of active defense is weak in the context of zerg play again as outside of those evade frame you are very frail with most builds, and don't have many damage reduction perks allowing to take some of the inevitable incoming hits.

But otherwise, yes thief is a great class for many reasons as well.

Hi!

So, I reflected on different flavors of an Acrobatics rework (especially for the 300cd skills). I came up with way more ideas than needed, and I suspect each of you also have some ideas.

I propose here 4 defensive/boon/support oriented traits and 3 offensive oriented traits.

I'm NOT suggesting they would be all implememented, so it's rather a list of ideas. I'm not exactly sure of which could replaces which traits, so anyways! Let me know if you find any inspiration/ideas interesting in there!

# **1) Boon and support traits**

## **Acrobatic Transmutation**

Dodging an incoming condition grant a stack of regeneration for yourself and up to 5 allies in a 360 radius, and heals allies (not you) for a small amount (456 (0.08)).

## **Sustained presence**

While regeneration is active, gain +250 healing power and +150 vitality.

Everytime you grant yourself or an ally a boon, you gain 2 might for 5 seconds.

## **Self-less Acrobacy**

2 seconds Protection granted to 5 allies when you dodge in a 360 radius. (for allies and yourself)

1 second Aegis granted to 5 allies when you dodge (or evade?), in a 90 radius. (_Only_ for allies, not yourself, and you basically you got to stand on the ally...)

## **Constant motion**

You gain 1% of DMG and conditions reduction per 60 tiles crossed for 10 seconds, for a maximum 15 stacks.

Each evaded hit grant a stacking 2% power and condition damage bonus for yourself and your allies in a 360 radius for 10 seconds, maximun 5 stacks.

# **2) Aggressive and complementing traits**

## **Confounding/Disorienting Acrobacy (version 1)**

Ennemi gain one stack of confusion for each missed hit that was to hit you.

(PvP, WvW) 1 sec internal CD per target in PvP for 1 stack of 2 seconds;

(PvE) 3 stacks for 3 secondes, no ICD.

**-OR-**

## **Confounding/Disorienting Acrobacy (version 2)**

If a foe misses an attack as you dodge/evade, he gains a confounding stack for 10 sec. If he reaches 5 stacks, he loses all stacks and receives 10 stacks of 1 seconds confusion (PvP, WvW)

If a foe misses an attack as you dodge/evade, he gains a confounding stack for 10 sec. If he reaches 3 stacks, he receives 10 stacks of 2.5 seconds confusion (PvE)

_(Version 2 offers more counter play.)_

## **Thoughtful Acrobacy**

(PvP, WvW) While in combat, if you take no DMG for 10 seconds, your next skill inflicts damage (Damage: 300 + (power*0.25)) and immobilizes on all hits a 0.25 second, 5 sec internal CD per target, .

Movement weapon skills gain 5% power and condi damage.

(PvE) While in combat, if you take no DMG for 10 seconds, your next skill inflicts damage (Damage: 465 +(power*0.5)) and immobilizes on all hits a 1 second, 5 sec internal CD per target.

Movement weapon skills gain 5% power and condi damage.

## **Toxic Sprint/Dash**

You release poison as you dash and gain one stack of regeneration.

**-OR-**

## **Burning reflexes**

Dashes skills happen so fast that it generates heat as a 120 radius 5 targets 1 stack of burning for 2 seconds, when you reach the target, creating a fire field.

**-OR-**

Quick hits succession charge a burning 180 radius attack. Achieving 10 hits in under 5 sec throws out a burning attack, of a 1 stack of burning for 2 seconds on 120 radius and 5 targets.

**-OR-**

## **Instant Impact**

Dashes and shadowstep puts a 0.75 sec stack of slow and chill on 5 targets 80 radius around target (landing position). You gain quickness 0.5 second. (PvP, WvW)

Dashes and shadowstep puts a 2 sec stack of slow and chill on 5 targets 120 radius around target (landing position). You gain quickness 1.5 second. (PvE)

_Again, I'm NOT suggesting that all of them would be implemented, but rather than 2-3 could be considered to replace the 300CD traits, and some of the less used ones._

Thanks!

To be fair, ele does have a lot of piano play involved, but if you want to optimize your DPS and impact, PvP or PvE, there is not that much room for improvisation.

To a certain degree there is a lot of risk (to screw up rotations), but it's relatively predictable to play against because one know what skills in which order they will have to land to maximize their DPS or keep you down.

That's also what bothers me.

I'm not sure other would agree with me, but the way I see it: classes with more meaningful/impactful individual skills (or in 2-skills combos) tend to be either very boring/repetitive, because really 2-3 skills do it all, OR when they have many impactful skills, those classes allow for a good deal of improvisation because almost anything will work in almost any order.

On the contrary, classes with complexe rotations tend to leave less room to improvisation, and even if you can improvise, it's more about finding the opening to use your complexe rotation, or being able to start it from any point along what forms a relatively linear pattern.

In a weird way, it's as if many classes lacked enough meaningful/potentially impactful combos. Most build usually have 1 or 2 key rotations, are tailored around that, and that's about it, with complementary utility for safeguard. Any other skill put in the wrong order will have you decrease your DPS.

But then, when you can improvise easily, you tend not to have complexe combos at hand.

In short, I wished we had more skill combination potential to react to a diversity of situations.

I find Guardian allows for more improvisation. Yet, relatively simple to play.

Certain really specific thief builds require high skill ceiling to pull off, but wont be as impactful as some of the more easier/cheezier builds.

Revenant has a great deal of adaptability built in, but also more or less stuck with very specific rotations to be effective if built to maximize that sort of play.

Bottom line, I'm not sure what you want really exist here.

Engineer and ele might be the most complex, but don't allow for that much improvisation, I find, if you want to remain effective. Other people might say otherwise.

I'm kind of hoping for axe, sword OH, for a mid range or another melee... or focus or even scepter for some sort of arcane assassin type of elite spec.

One handed weapon either main or off hand would be amazing given our dual skills... That are supposed to be one of our key feature, yet not really used by the two last e-spec.

I wish shortbow was made stronger damage wise and become a viable PvE option, while still offering lower damage than pistol or rifle.

- Autoattack: boost the DMG multiplier from 25% to 50% when target is poisoned (or more!),

- Cluster bomb spit one burning stack of 3 secondes on the landing of the non-exploded shell.

- Disabling shot: successfully evading a hit refunds one initiative.

- Chocking gaz, from 3 to 4 seconds, from 4 to 5 pulses, add a 2 daze if poison stacks exceed hits 5 or above;

- Infiltrator arrow... What if... COST and RANGE was cut in half when you click, but when you hold before click, regular cost and range. I think it could be fun and actually interesting.

- OR just straight up cut PvE cost from 6 to 5 or even 4. I don't see the issue for such a heavy cost skill, especially when SA traits for shadowstep and blind bonuses aren't that powerful to start with, in PvE context.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"Trianox.3486" what you missed is the part that you dont burst with stealth skill but with stab from 3 instead, at least when you want to 1shot somebody.

> so instead of long ambush skill that is easy to dodge you have stab along with steal, instantly from stealth that deals over 8k damage and applies all manner of nastiness like weakness,cripple,vulnerability. and THEN over the course of 1s you get bombared with over 10k dmg still.

> Mirage can MANAGE fight with thief with cooldowns, but mirage by no way counters cthief

> and thats assuming you hit from stealth, nothing stops you from simply 3->steal for almost 10k, spam 8k repeaters, stealth, use plasma, 3->f1 again and then you have quickness for repeater that follows and you get another 20k within 20-30s

> And when you start getting clever you can throw 2 or 4 before casting 3/steal when enemy is distracted for even more damage or CC. Combo lands as the skills reach the target so for the enemy its instant too

Well buddy, you brought up that "burst from 1k". I too pointed that skill3 was the big hitter, yet you said bleeding was a cover condi. You're kind of invalidating some of your own things there. :-/

But regardless, yes this is what I have been saying from the start. Don't let the thief use that P/D skill3 more than once and even then, if you dodge during his animation you cut massively the damage taken. And of he kept his steal to do 3-steal-3, then dodge and use any of the mirage evade skill as he ports in. Unless you have high lag, it should be doable.

I'm not sure what other prooves I can bring to you other than suggest to go watch both top thieves and top Mesmer gamers and how they deal with one another (which is of course not the vast majority of players), or actually just some average gameplay.

Without going in hyperbola... Tell me if that captures our discussion or not:

- I think that overall we're saying more or less the same thing about damage output potential. Our numbers are in the same brackets.

- the main difference is that you seem to think there is not enough counter Play, while I seem to think there are more than enough. Is that right?

- you say Mirage can manage chief, I say it can counter it.

Last point would be: what makes Mirage able to manage cthief?

Isn't it Mirage own stealth, CC, port-in/out, and evades? Or is capacity to burst (altho of course deminiahed over the months) or all of that together?

I tend to counter guardian usually easily with my thief (power or condi) but I tend to struggle vs Firebrand who really knows how to flip around their times for maximizing damage avoidance/reduction, cleanses, and optimizing their dmg.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Trianox.3486" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Trianox.3486" what you are trying to "show" us, is monkey thief fighting monkey mirage and having a good fight.

> > > reality is thief will apply 20k condi from stealth from 1k range, and either mirage has cleanse and only loses half hp, or he doesnt and dies.

> > > there is no fighting and there is no cleaver " counterpressure porting "

> > > thief stealths for 20s, walks up, presses 3->f1 and you get chunked for 20k.

> > > EDIT

> > > mirage is not good vs cthief, mirage IF he has cooldowns can survive cthief, but cant kill it.

> > > it boils down to

> > > 1 thief attacks

> > > 2a if you dont have cooldowns you die

> > > 2b if you have cooldowns you survive and counterpressure

> > > 3a you lose the game

> > > 3b thief disengages and runs cuz its thief, or if it was a +1 you die anyways.

> >

> > I did not "show" anything about Mirage, I didn't talk of rotation or anything. But again, Mirage is very well equiped to deal with cthief, or thief in general.

> > I agree with @KrHome.1920 here. The builds that are the most ran, thief side, are usually quite one-dimensional bursty thief.

> >

> > As for the rest of your argument, and the numbers you bring into the discussion, it has to be contextualized.

> > Thief cannot apply 20k condi from stealth from 1k range. That's just not true, and that thinking probably is the reason why you loose your fights.

> > _A thief can deliver about 20k yes, but it's a whole sequence, and you got to understand it to counter it._

> >

> > Of course if you have no dodge, and that you already spent ALL your cooldown you'll die, who would not. That's true for every PvP fight... especially if outnumbered.

> > PvP is also about learning to use your skills at the right moment, saving some of them for ennemies that you know that are part of ennemy team composition; or spreading them over so everything is not on cooldown at once... And that tells me a lot, I'm not a top player, but I'll say it anyways: if you find yourself in 1v1 during which you burnt all your cooldown, you leave yourself extremely vulnerable to your oponent who might have been using his skills more sporadictly, and you're super exposed to any +1 pressure. You will fall to that +1 thief easily. You're almost asking for it.

> > If you look at pro players (or the closest we have from that hehe), you often notice that they almost never have all their skills on cooldowns, unless they know that doing so, spending everything at once will win them the fight right away, allowing for the cap/decap, etc.

> >

> > **Let's look at the real numbers.**

> >

> > If we talk core thief (DA, SA, TR, assuming let's say carrion and sigil of poisoning)

> > **1rst move**

> > Steal is 1200 range, but then it ports him right next to you (not at 1k range!) with 3921 condi over 12.5 seconds. That's 313,68 dmg per sec.

> > If he plays Shadow art and spent some time in stealth, he could have 2 more venom stacks with Leeching Venom (1176 dmg over 3.75 sec, so another 313.6 per sec for almost 4 seconds)

> > So steal plus SA Leeching Venoms is roughtly 5k condi, with 4 seconds at 626 dmg per second, and 8 .5 seconds at 313 dmg per second. It's really not a whole lot if you don't panic.

> > **2nd move**

> > Assuming he was stealth, he will then use a SneakAttack (900 range, not 1k), but because of steal is is right next to you.

> > Sneak will do 1015 power dmg, plus 281 dmg from bonus stealth attack, as well as 2980 bleeding dmg over 5 sec (596 per sec). Both physical dmg and bleeding are incoming by 5 diffrent hits over a full second, which is enough to dodge part of that dmg, and then, of course the bleed is over 5 sec duration.

> > That's a total of a little over 4k dmg,

> >

> > **3rd move and 4th move**

> > Shadow strike is a port-out and puts him at 600 range (not 1k!), there is a shot damage of 888+213 stab dmg, so 1.1k.

> > Condi wise: Torment 2 stacks of total of 1066 dmg over 6 seconds, or 2131 if you move, over 6 sec.

> > Poison, 2 stacks (assuming deadly ambition is traited) for a total of 1176 dmg over 3.75 sec.

> > THEN, Repeated is toggled, allowing for 1015 power dmg in 5 hits, and 5 stacks of bleeding (one per hit), for a total of 2384 bleeding over 4 sec, the attack takes 1.25 sec to deliver a full repeater.

> >

> > Big total here is 16 164 dmg, applied in 4 differents "moves" . The first one is instant, the second takes 1 sec, the 3rd and 4th move takes together about 2 sec. So all of that happens within about 3-5 seconds, and a single dodge, blurr or whatever, will have you avoid about half of that.

> > Then aside from about 3k physical dmg, the rest is 13k condi, which is applied about a 15 second period.

> >

> > Every other skill he has is going to hit like a wet noodle. He needs to re-stealth to be able to stack more venom and do another sneak attack with pistol.

> > Cleansing can be done at any point during that fight, but optimally, it should come after the Sneak attack or right after Repeater, depending which you were able to dodge.

> >

> > Now if that thief also brought in, let's say, Spider Venom AND Skale, he'll add up about 2-3k more dmg, but would have also wasted 2 utilities for that... exposing him to counter attack, and leaving him with fewer stealth options.

> >

> > Use a single dodge or a single cleanse half way through and you save yourself half the damage, and you have enough room to counter-pressure, and it will take 15-25 secondes before he can try to pull off a similar sequence again. So once you cleanse or dodge, you have to pick whether you want to keep fighting, in a 1v2, or pull out, or call in support, etc.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAUpjlFwQYhsN2JOuOrrbA-zZoOjCEBpIEc8A

> current quicklink for the build.

> openener 3->f1->3 ( venom during 3 )

> damage

> Venom gives 4 vulnerability

> F1 gives 5 vulnerability and 8 might

> total vulnerability : 9, total might : 8 ( im guessing you didnt account for it did you ?

> venoms apply power damage ( you didnt account for it either ofc )

> steal : 3984 poison damage

> 6 stacks of confusion, 1200 dmg/tick

> 3 ( first part stab ) 250 power, 2100 torment damage, 1200 poison damage

> venom proc 600 poison 180 power

> Up to this point all of this damage is instant from stealth from 1200 range.

> Grand total of 8300 damage ( counting with 5 might )

> After that you use 3, repeater during which you use venom.

> you apply

> 1200 power damage, 3000 bleed

> 1x poison venom for 600 poison, 180 power

> 4x skale venom for 720 power damage and 3464 torment.

> this is another 9100 damage, it also applies 4 vulnerability.

> add in previous damage add in more might then actually exist add in 9 vulnerability and here you have ~18k-20k dmg. Add in confusion.

> all of it under cover of ( vulnerability, cripple, weakness, confusion )

>

I'm not sure what those calculations add to the situation given I was already pointing at roughly 20k too, so you kind of missed my point. BUT I thank you for investing time into this.

We don't pick the same traits, but regardless the total still goes between 16-22k.

Still, here the point: All of that does not happen at 1k range, there is on the contrary a whole positionning game going on, starting right up to your face, to 600 range away, then either back in or moving toward 600-900 range as pistol is max 900 range.

And all of that isn't "one button and everything happens"... it's an actual sequence that can be interupted/CC'ed as @KrHome.1920 points out, or evaded, etc. Most of the damage come through channeled skills... that leaves you room to move, espace, dodge, port-in, etc. It's not easy, should not be too hard, especially Mirage to avoid the bulk of it.

I too played that cthief a lot both years back and recently, and it's really just that people start pannicking and don't actually take into consideration what's the break down of the damages and where it comes from to avoid/deal with it properly. And of course, I totally get the "suprise" factor and that can be obnoxious to fight, but it's also part of assessing who you're facing and trying to stay on top of it. Again, those cthief builds are quite one dimensional...

> @"Kuma.1503" said:

> After playing the build a bit, looking at arcdps logs, and reading up on tips posted here, I'm feeling a bit more confident against cthief.

>

> As it turns out, steal isn't what kills you, it loads you up with tons of condis which makes it easy to panic, but it's not the main thing to worry about. It's the repeater damage + bleeds that kill you. All the other condis they apply are just cover/icing on the cake.

>

> It looks like your best bet vs core thief is to use a block, invuln, evade, LoS ect. after they've stolen onto you to prevent the repeater burst. Still a toughie to deal with if they +1 you but not unbeatable like I initially thought.

If you want, ping me in game and we can train. ;-)