OriOri.8724

> @"Xaylin.1860" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > > I would like to still be themed on reflects and see:

> > > >

> > > > - Gain mirror on dodge (0.75s reflect, on dodge only)

> > > >

> > > > That way it is short duration and essentially turns *only dodges* into reflects, and only for the duration of a dodge itself - not extending beyond that, but does not affect any other evade from any source (ie blurred frenzy, mirage mirrors, axe 3, etc)

> > > >

> > > > This way it would be predictable, have limitations and be good/worth using at the same time.

> > > >

> > > > Edit: for clarity - essentially a direct enhancement to dodge only, meaning dodge would not only evade all incoming hits but also reflect a portion of them (projectiles) back to opponents. In my opinion no need for contrived ICDs because it would be limited itself by endurance and the shorter dodge duration of 0.75s = plenty of downtime and counterplay, and easy to understand for opponents - just don't shoot projectiles into mesmer dodge, no need for guesswork or looking at the UI to see reflect icon...

> > >

> > > That's a pretty weak trait, but good direction. I'd like to see one of two options

> > >

> > > * (preferred) Gain 2 seconds of mirror and either 1 sec superspeed or 2 sec vigor when successfully dodging an attack. It doesn't just poop out superspeed and mirror, since you have to have actually dodged something instead of just using your dodge, but it keeps the same flavor the trait has. Restricting the mirror to just the dodge duration doesn't keep that flavor in my opinion

> > > * Reflect projectiles when evading. Just buffs all of our evades to also reflect, nothing else, the reflect effect ends when the evade does.

> > >

> > > Both of them are significantly weaker than the pre-nerfed version of the trait, but also still worth taking. I do think the bottom option is too much reflect though, which is why I prefer the first option

> >

> > Maybe I'm misreading what you wrote, but isn't that just the same as previous version (2s mirror on any evade) but without ICD, which would be overpowered?

>

> Busted ?

>

> Regardless what they do... the ICD in this form has to go. I'm also still salty about Master of Manipulation.

>

> I really want to regain some characteristic skills for baseline Mesmer. This includes reflects and boon removal. So I've been wondering - assuming classes got yet another trait rework and traits are shuffled around - how do you guys feel about giving Sword reflects?

>

> For example, Sword evades (#2 and #4) gain reflect. Plus standard 'Gain Ferocity, gain even more when whielding a Sword'. We would probably have to sacrifice the CD reduction but I'd be up for it.

>

>

You both are misreading option 2. It would only give reflect for the duration of the evade, it wouldn't give the mirror effect at all (unless that's the only way to give reflect, mechanically). So on BF you would reflect for 1 second if you didn't have quickness. On dodging you would reflect for 0.75 seconds. Its significantly weaker than the old version, but I still think its too much, which is why I prefer the first option.

@"Quadox.7834" That's not at all relevant anymore, as you are talking about a trait as it existed and was meta before HoT dropped and started this never ending powercreep race. As much as I, and I'm sure a few others, would prefer we went back to where that was a powerful trait, there's no going back now, and you have to balance against the rest of the game. Bringing it up here serves only to attempt to derail the conversation

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> I would like to still be themed on reflects and see:

>

> - Gain mirror on dodge (0.75s reflect, on dodge only)

>

> That way it is short duration and essentially turns *only dodges* into reflects, and only for the duration of a dodge itself - not extending beyond that, but does not affect any other evade from any source (ie blurred frenzy, mirage mirrors, axe 3, etc)

>

> This way it would be predictable, have limitations and be good/worth using at the same time.

>

> Edit: for clarity - essentially a direct enhancement to dodge only, meaning dodge would not only evade all incoming hits but also reflect a portion of them (projectiles) back to opponents. In my opinion no need for contrived ICDs because it would be limited itself by endurance and the shorter dodge duration of 0.75s = plenty of downtime and counterplay, and easy to understand for opponents - just don't shoot projectiles into mesmer dodge, no need for guesswork or looking at the UI to see reflect icon...

That's a pretty weak trait, but good direction. I'd like to see one of two options

* (preferred) Gain 2 seconds of mirror and either 1 sec superspeed or 2 sec vigor when successfully dodging an attack. It doesn't just poop out superspeed and mirror, since you have to have actually dodged something instead of just using your dodge, but it keeps the same flavor the trait has. Restricting the mirror to just the dodge duration doesn't keep that flavor in my opinion

* Reflect projectiles when evading. Just buffs all of our evades to also reflect, nothing else, the reflect effect ends when the evade does.

Both of them are significantly weaker than the pre-nerfed version of the trait, but also still worth taking. I do think the bottom option is too much reflect though, which is why I prefer the first option

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"reddie.5861" said:

> > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > > Yes, thief can perma evade, dd, sw/p, vault. If you can't perhaps you should learn to play your profession before qqing.

> > > > Yeah, you come to mesmer forums but not to do what you say you come here over and over to derail threads into oh poor me and poor thieves.

> > > >

> > > > Secondly l2read, what part of fencers finesse is trash when compared to all those both thief and war traits, oh and apart from staff did any trait received an update? You just qq for the sake of qq.

> > > >

> > > > Get a psychologist to heal that victim complex.

> > >

> > > no we cant perma evade, DD is kitten weapon set nerfed to the ground its fun to troll on but thats it.

> > > sword/pistol i mean really? another troll weapon set?

> > Used by faeleth in monthly AT. Troll weapon set . Get on his level

> > > vault, yes more or less maybe in small scale fight but in a blob ur "non evade frame" will soak up tons of conditions/dmg ull die pretty quick if not in group with

> > > i prefer a invul and evades from mirage and whoever said this is about core mirage, then dont pull daredevil into this and go nag about core thief, which is pretty much only thief build left to play in PvP/WvW

> > Thread not even about cmirage its about core traits and unfairness and bias, in stupid attempt to nerf mirage, obviously to make core mesmer even more garbage than it is and nerf as much builds as possible at once.

> > > btw on serious note why would u mesmers want more power?

> > > u can 100 > 0 most classes in 1 rotation

> > I can slot core/DRD/DEADEYE for oneshot on the same classes mesmer can oneshot as you say but problem is ALL of they are unviable just as the mesmer

> > > u have nice bunker builds

> > Destroyed with scepter nerf. Look at mAT. Scrappers everywhere,not even soulbeasts. The only 1 chrono was brought by frenchies that cant play anything else apparently.

> > > u have nice hybrid builds

> > What hybrid builds? Have you seen scepter nerfs? Have you seen axe nerfs as 67% damage? What nice about it ?

> > > see i dont play mesmer main i just play ones in a blue moon, but i think mesmer doesnt need a "big" change it might need some very little tweaks here and there but for sure doesnt need more power.

> > You dont play mesmer but think its fine ? Every single nerf on core was either unjustified or over kill.

> > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048"

> > I really dont understand, its hard to nerf overperforming skill by 10-25% and see if its need more? Waiting for months and then suddenly nuke it from orbit with 50-67% is fine? Why every nerf on mesmer is 50% or more ?

> > Portal duration 50% duration nerf. Scepter damage 50% nerf. In the past Warlock on staff had 50% damage nerf despite not doing any significant damage. Chrono shield 50% damage nerf. Cry of pain 50% of confusions were deleted. Blind shatter trait basically was deleted with reflect on evade. Axe ambush is 67% damage nerf...

> > IA 75% cd increase. Ineptitude nerfed by 60% in duration.

> > Must be a magic number.

> >

>

> Holo Leap history (Originally it would crit for 7k on a 2 second cooldown [Yes, 2 second cooldown] in Photon Forge after might stacking with Corona Burst)

>

> August 28, 2018

> The damage of this skill has been **reduced by 17% in PvP only**.

>

> March 27, 2018

> **Reduced damage by 17% in PvP only**.

>

> November 07, 2017

> The swiftness or superspeed applied by this skill is now applied at the end of the leap rather than at the start.

>

> September 22, 2017 Path of Fire release:

> Holo Leap has been added to the game.

>

> It's so weird how Arenanet is very moderate with their nerfs when it comes to Engineer. Multiple patches in a row where it's been left completely untouched outside of buffs to scrapper and core.

Not really that weird. When Anet balances engineer (and pretty much every class other than mesmer/thief), they actually take the time to think about why something is overperforming, and go after the root issue, usually. With mesmer and thief, they never do that, and just randomly nerf shit. Which means core issues that make some builds OP are never truly addressed, and inevitably something gets nerfed into oblivion when it lands in their warpath to "balance" these 2 classes.

Better solution would be to normalize the movement speed for superspeed over all directions while under mirage cloak. Don't change its mechanic at all, just give mirage the same mobility via dodge that all other classes get.

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> Couple of patches ago ANet said they wanted mirages to excel in longer fights, since then they nerfed all sustain options.

> This new one trait affects one shatter philosophy could be good if it was applied all across the board, traits affecting only one attunement, traits affecting only one skill belt, and so on.

> **Talking about bloat, will they change steal? There's no skill in game as bloat as that one.**

>

> I doubt mesmers will ever get in a good state again, same thing happened to eles some years ago and they're still lackluster.

>

> As for the above poster, yes skilled mirages will still do good because every single one of them changed main.

Don't be absurd, they'll never touch steal.

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > Speaking of MI, I'm going to pretend that they took my idea from the old forum, because its pretty much exactly the change they made. A long time ago I suggested making it 6 sec stealth base, and lowering CD to 75 seconds, and people cried so hard about how busted that would be, yet now here we are with an even stronger version of the skill.

> > >

> > > True, but given some of the other classes skills, and the amount of stealth counter play added in form of revealing skills and revealed de-buff, MI was very outdated. I mean let's be honest, sneak gyro is still superior to MI even with these buffs. The belt skill gives the engi stealth detection, the active ability gives him a point blank stealth area field which even with the gyro visible is on a shorter cd and longer (untraited) .

> > >

> > > Now traited MI is at least on a somewhat even playing field.

> >

> > Oh agreed. Its still lacking compared to some other skills in the game, but I actually think that MI is near perfect balance. Anything stronger than it is, in my opinion, too strong of a skill, and should be considered for a redesign. MI does 1 thing, AoE, long duration stealth, and its good at that one thing. Sure sneak gyro is a better skill, but that doesn't make MI bad.

> >

> > Plus, you can't deny that 9 seconds of stealth and 3 sec of superspeed every 48 seconds, when traited, is bad. That's pretty kitten good imo

>

> True, when traited MI becomes quite useful, meanwhile the mesmer running it is occupying a slot in the team which could go to a support scrapper. :'(

I haven't really been playing the game for a while, I honestly don't know how mesmer's stack up against other classes right now in any content :/

This is unfortunate to hear, but I do have to say from reading patch notes that overall the balance team is heading in a much better direction that the HoT days and first few patches after PoF. So I'm hopeful that in a couple balance patches it will be looking up for mesmer as a support again

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > Speaking of MI, I'm going to pretend that they took my idea from the old forum, because its pretty much exactly the change they made. A long time ago I suggested making it 6 sec stealth base, and lowering CD to 75 seconds, and people cried so hard about how busted that would be, yet now here we are with an even stronger version of the skill.

>

> True, but given some of the other classes skills, and the amount of stealth counter play added in form of revealing skills and revealed de-buff, MI was very outdated. I mean let's be honest, sneak gyro is still superior to MI even with these buffs. The belt skill gives the engi stealth detection, the active ability gives him a point blank stealth area field which even with the gyro visible is on a shorter cd and longer (untraited) .

>

> Now traited MI is at least on a somewhat even playing field.

Oh agreed. Its still lacking compared to some other skills in the game, but I actually think that MI is near perfect balance. Anything stronger than it is, in my opinion, too strong of a skill, and should be considered for a redesign. MI does 1 thing, AoE, long duration stealth, and its good at that one thing. Sure sneak gyro is a better skill, but that doesn't make MI bad.

Plus, you can't deny that 9 seconds of stealth and 3 sec of superspeed every 48 seconds, when traited, is ~~bad~~ good. That's pretty damn good imo

Edit - I'm a dumb fuck and got words mixed around

Speaking of MI, I'm going to pretend that they took my idea from the old forum, because its pretty much exactly the change they made. A long time ago I suggested making it 6 sec stealth base, and lowering CD to 75 seconds, and people cried so hard about how busted that would be, yet now here we are with an even stronger version of the skill.

> @"EvilSardine.9635" said:

> The nerf is good. It actually makes mirage less brain dead to play. Good players will adapt and not rely on the crutch.

>

> I'm looking forward to playing Mirage again. I stopped playing it because it felt like it had too much reward for too little risk.

No. It was a good _target_ for a nerf, but the nerf itself was garbage. Learn to tell the two apart. Just because something was overpowered or overperforming does not mean that the nerf it gets is a good nerf.

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > EM cd change is a bit extreme. 566% CD increase all at once is a pretty insane nerf. Would rather have seen it bumped up no higher than 6 or 8, especially considering that mirror was removed from master of manipulation.

> > >

> > > On paper it is 566% but in reality it is not even close to that much of a nerf, since it is limited by endurance anyway. But yeah it was a stupid change, it will just be unreliable and annoying to use.

> >

> > Not quite. Evasive mirror works on evades, not dodging. While dodging is a huge source of evades, mesmers also get several skills that allow them to evade attacks, notably BF but also sword 4, both of which are on short CDs and can be traited even shorter with dueling. Mirage also gets another evade on axe on a 10sec CD untraited. Combined with vigor and strategically using your evade skills, you could have been proccing EM roughly every 3-4 seconds on average even over an extended fight. In a quicker fight, you could easily activate it 4-5 times in a row, right off its ICD each time.

>

> Sorry yeah that's true. I just wanted to point out that just saying 566% nerf could be a bit misleading (for example, raising cooldown of fury on crit or vigor on crit by 566% would be a much bigger relative nerf).

I see where you're coming from, but its not misleading at all in my opinion. Mechanically, especially if you play an elite spec (mirage gets extra evade skills while chrono has alacrity and IA if you want to run it), you could pop EM off back to back multiple times in a row, while killing the opponent quickly, and effectively have the ICD be 1.5 seconds for the entire fight. Even on extended fights though, proccing it every ~3 seconds is sustainable for a pretty solid amount of time.

So I guess I will revise my original comment. Its a 566% nerf to the ICD when using it in a burst, but even over extended fights its still a 233% nerf to the ICD, which is still one of the largest nerfs this game has ever seen from a pure numbers perspective. It was way too heavy handed, and just adds yet another ICD to mentally keep track of as a mesmer if you wish to run the trait still. Which, taken together, means it was a piss poor nerf to the trait, and not the correct way to address it.

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > EM cd change is a bit extreme. 566% CD increase all at once is a pretty insane nerf. Would rather have seen it bumped up no higher than 6 or 8, especially considering that mirror was removed from master of manipulation.

>

> On paper it is 566% but in reality it is not even close to that much of a nerf, since it is limited by endurance anyway. But yeah it was a stupid change, it will just be unreliable and annoying to use.

Not quite. Evasive mirror works on evades, not dodging. While dodging is a huge source of evades, mesmers also get several skills that allow them to evade attacks, notably BF but also sword 4, both of which are on short CDs and can be traited even shorter with dueling. Mirage also gets another evade on axe on a 10sec CD untraited. Combined with vigor and strategically using your evade skills, you could have been proccing EM roughly every 3-4 seconds on average even over an extended fight. In a quicker fight, you could easily activate it 4-5 times in a row, right off its ICD each time.

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > Evasive Mirror is stupid in my opinion - without any UI visual indicator for icd display (same problem as most long icd effects...), at 10s in practice it's going to be impossible to regularly predict when the reflect will be available, on a _conditional evade_... so it's just going to boil down to luck based reflect that may or may not range from useless if proccing at the wrong time (in melee or no projectiles) to useful or even pivotal in a fight.

> > >

> > > Utterly stupid trait with 10s icd as it's designed.

> > >

> > > Get rid of all these conditional/contextual requirements and change it into something that can be used with some level of skill and prediction both for the player and opponents - rather than pure luck...

> >

> > This would require them to have an idea of what they want to do with mesmer as a class though. And judging off of every balance patch since HoT came out, they don't have a consistent idea of what they want mesmer to be.

>

> Yeah especially seeing certain things going round in circles like scepter crazy buffs then nerfed back again in a similar way, and confounding suggestions having how many different versions... Just seems like a waste of effort.

>

> Feeling pretty jaded right now, not been for a long time but maybe with the nice spring weather (northern hemisphere) it's time to go extra casual until Anet sort this kitten out properly - though that could take until the next expansion or whatever. :/

What they should do, even though it will be a large project, is sit back and think deeply on every class about what they want it to be, what they want it to be good and bad at, potentially even how it will play at a high level. They already, I believe, have done this, but the issue is they stopped there. They need to take that idea significantly farther, down to each traitline, weapon, and skill category for every class (and again, at a bit higher level, for elite specs as a whole).

Scepter on mesmer is a great example of where this process has not happened. Its so lost. No one knows what it is supposed to be, design wise. Is it a power weapon? A condi weapon? Mid range or short range? Is it for dueling or not? Its kit is all over the place, and 'balanced' seemingly at random. Mesmer boon share (more specifically SoI) is another, near perfect, example of where this process has not happened, or at least where it wasn't effective. Instead of continuing to nerf our boon share in a manner that doesn't really address anything, the balance team needs to step back and consider if mesmer should be sharing every boon in the game with a single skill anyway, and the answer is obviously no.

You can't have a class be both balanced AND fun unless you clearly know what you want that class to look like. And its pretty clear that they have no consistent idea of what they want mesmer to look like, it seems to flip several times a year.

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> Evasive Mirror is stupid in my opinion - without any UI visual indicator for icd display (same problem as most long icd effects...), at 10s in practice it's going to be impossible to regularly predict when the reflect will be available, on a _conditional evade_... so it's just going to boil down to luck based reflect that may or may not range from useless if proccing at the wrong time (in melee or no projectiles) to useful or even pivotal in a fight.

>

> Utterly stupid trait with 10s icd as it's designed.

>

> Get rid of all these conditional/contextual requirements and change it into something that can be used with some level of skill and prediction both for the player and opponents - rather than pure luck...

This would require them to have an idea of what they want to do with mesmer as a class though. And judging off of every balance patch since HoT came out, they don't have a consistent idea of what they want mesmer to be.

EM cd change is a bit extreme. 566% CD increase all at once is a pretty insane nerf. Would rather have seen it bumped up no higher than 6 or 8, especially considering that mirror was removed from master of manipulation.

@"Reanne.5462" The list of items that you describe is, luckily, pretty small. Its not the best solution, I'll admit, but it would be easy enough to hard code in a few "recipes" in your project. For this, whenever you see a charged quartz crystal as an ingredient, your program should just know that it requires quartz crystals, and then add the price of the required quartz crystals to the total cost of the item you want to craft.

When was Moa buffed? This change only undoes part of an earlier nerf, that hardly constitutes a buff dude.

In terms of breakbar dmg / second, in PvE Moa actually does **_LESS_** than it did prior to the change that nerfed its breakbar dmg to 600. Its still all around worse than it was before that change was made several patches ago. Ans as for splitting that change, well that's just a dumb split anyway.

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > In light of base mirage cloak revert to 0.75s, regarding Elusive Mind - how about the following change:

> > - remove stunbreak entirely

> > - replace with "increase mirage cloak duration from all sources by 33%"

> >

> > That could provide a meaningful choice at least between IH and EM (can deal with DC separately) in that IH would have shorter cloak but share with illusions (plus ambush) and EM would have longer cloak but selfish on player (plus condi cleanse).

> >

>

> I don't like that because timing attacks after dodges would be inconsistent and very annoying

? The timing window for ambush attacks won't be changing, that's in the patch notes. This doesn't affect timing attacks at all for mesmers

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > Just shows that the balance team doesn't have a clue with mesmer. Stuff like this is why I no longer have fun playing the class. Instead of addressing any root balance issues, they just continuously nerf over and over, but since those root issues are never addressed, the nerfs are never enough

>

> There are plenty of skilled players in WvW running core Mesmer and Chronomancer. Is Mirage required for you to have fun with Mesmer?

This completely misses the point I was making, by an astonishing amount. My comment had nothing to do with miage vs chrono vs core mesmer. Its about how ANet doesn't understand why builds on mesmer are overpowered, and end up nerfing the wrong thing. But since they never address the root issue, we just keep getting nerf after nerf, after nerf. SoI, Mirage cloak, Elusive Mind (and the new change to exhaustion just makes it even worse now), and almost everything else about mesmer keeps getting nerfed, without the base issues that make these components overpowered ever being addressed. And then to make it even more insulting, confusion continues to be nerfed on mesmer for no real reason

Just shows that the balance team doesn't have a clue with mesmer. Stuff like this is why I no longer have fun playing the class. Instead of addressing any root balance issues, they just continuously nerf over and over, but since those root issues are never addressed, the nerfs are never enough

> @"Ojimaru.8970" said:

> The _current_ version of SOI is actually too good. As you duly pointed out, it is not affected by Concentration. Secondly, it is a flat increase in duration. In other words, with zero Concentration, you can increase the duration of a 1-second Resistance boon to 6 seconds; and you can do this for up to ten player characters. Every other flat boon duration increase mechanic goes to only two to three seconds, and are either personal (Essence of Speed) or up to 5 characters (Consumer Legendary Dragon Stance). This is in addition of the Chrono's ability to use CS to double cast SOI, can gain Distortion after each cast, and SOI applying to every individual stack of boon.

Basically what pyro said. SoI just needs to be redesigned, it will never be both balanced and fun to use with its current functionality. It can be, at most, one or the other

Please just change SoI already. Its not remotely fun to watch the same skill get nerfed over, and over, and over. Otherwise looks pretty solid

> @"Terc.5736" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"Terc.5736" said:

> > > I'm a little confused here. Revenue is dropping , you are having lay-offs , and the first thing you do is kitten off consumers that have been waiting for a balance patch and Warclaw. Cause and effect!

> >

> > * The reason for the layoffs isn't ANet revenue; it's NCSOFT overall not meeting shareholder expectations.

> > * Regardless, no work is getting done right now; ANet is dealing with the immediate issue of figuring out who and how to make it work within NCSOFT's demands.

> > * Accordingly, anything scheduled for this week is getting pushed back.

> >

> > Another week really isn't going to matter that much, especially since we can guarantee that whatever is in the balance patch isn't going to please everyone.

>

> I'm just quoting NCSoft's own memo. Remind me next time GM announces layoffs and then proceeds to stop selling cars, or doing customer service on their product.

Are you seriously that daft?

ArenaNet lost 25% of its employees today. 25%. And the patch is only going to be 1 week late. How fucking selfish can you be that you are bitching over a 1 week waiting period for a patch, when ArenaNet is closed tomorrow to deal with the layoffs they didn't even know were happening? Jesus man, have some goddamn perspective.

A statue is the _least_ ANet can do for them. A lot of very senior employees no longer work for Anet (though I do not know how many of them volunteered to leave), tons of talent was lost today, talent that cannot easily be replaced, if at all.

Everything is overtuned. Damage output is too high. Damage mitigation is too high (but mandatory with how high damage output is). Amount of boons and condis being thrown out is too high. Boon/condi duration is too high (both base durations and how easy it is to acquire boon/condi duration stats). The number of things each build can do is too high. Mobility is too high, though to a lesser extent than everything else. The number of AoEs is far too high. Every class has skills that can be overloaded to death.

It all needs to be reigned in, and the longer ANet waits, the harder that will be to do.

Competitive PvP in GW2 will always be held back by the horrid state of power creep in this game. Every class, every build just does too much stuff now. It all needs to be dialed back, for every class.