UNOwen.7132

> @"Shao.7236" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > Why are you expecting buffs when nobody is calling them when deserved and all we can find is outliers that the initial patch missed? > > > > > > Makes no sense. > > > > > > Nobody is putting an effort in making suggestions that are elaborated for ideas to be tipped in as well. > > > > > > As far I've noticed when people do suggest "one" thing it's all in vacuum without much consideration of anything else anyway. > > > > > > Super drastic changes that completely change fundamentals with more than can be done. > > > > > > At this rate it is really true that people complain because they can, gameplay is an extremely good state right now and we have this unbearable negativity that despite all efforts think that the game was better before... > > > > > > It objectively wasn't. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, gameplay is "in an extremely good state now", thats why we saw a massive drop in players, and overall community opinion on the state is horrendous. Yes, the game *was* objectively better before. The February Patch basically destroyed PvP. > > I don't need to say it twice, if you're not happy to play with effort, you don't have to stay. I don't care if the game dies because of players leaving. I'm used to be people quitting easily and it wouldn't be the first time good things have gone away because they can't take it. > Thats the issue though. Its the *opposite*. You used to have to play by putting real effort in pre-february patch. After the february patch? The game became utterly braindead. Just an absolute skillless spam fest where you use everything off cooldown and nothing ever dies anyway. And if you don't care if the game dies because of players leaving, then at best you're *selfish*. > I've been here long enough to see the changes take effect unlike those whining the second they can't do exactly what they want, they leave. I'm gonna keep blaming the players until they are actually mentally challenged. > Evidently you're not actually seeing what the changes did. You also seem to misunderstand why players are leaving. Hint: the non-existence of skill in the current meta, and the fact that the meta is incredibly imbalanced and noone ever dies are major reasons. > You can say the playerbase is dying because of the balance, I'll keep telling you it's because people can't have their mindless fun so they quit. And you will be wrong every single time you say that. As you have been every single time you already have. The playerbase is dying because of both bad balance, and the fact that PvP is now just *mindless*.

> @"Shao.7236" said: > Why are you expecting buffs when nobody is calling them when deserved and all we can find is outliers that the initial patch missed? > > Makes no sense. > > Nobody is putting an effort in making suggestions that are elaborated for ideas to be tipped in as well. > > As far I've noticed when people do suggest "one" thing it's all in vacuum without much consideration of anything else anyway. > > Super drastic changes that completely change fundamentals with more than can be done. > > At this rate it is really true that people complain because they can, gameplay is an extremely good state right now and we have this unbearable negativity that despite all efforts think that the game was better before... > > It objectively wasn't. > > Yeah, gameplay is "in an extremely good state now", thats why we saw a massive drop in players, and overall community opinion on the state is horrendous. Yes, the game *was* objectively better before. The February Patch basically destroyed PvP.

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > They could buff PI *literally right now*, and it wouldnt break anything. Theyre not avoiding buffing PI because theyre worried it would make D/P stronger, theyre not buffing it because they want it to be unplayable. Thats the reason it got nerfed in the first place. > > Highly doubt that devs nerfed it for malicious reasons such as "making it unplayable" > They probably nerfed it to make the other options, Staff Master and Havoc Specialist look more appealing. > Frankly its the only explanation I can see. Staff Master is only used by Staff (duh), and was the only real pick for Staff. Havoc Specialist was already the standard choice. The only build that used PI at that point was the (no longer good) S/P thief, and even they were switching to Havoc Specialist as far as I can tell. So no, that wasnt why they nerfed it. Im pretty sure the point *was* to make it unplayable. If I had to wager a guess, it was nerfed as part of the "CC shouldnt do damage" thing. > But as usual, Anet fashion, they overnerf so they can essentially ignore and treat the "problem" as dead. > Guardians also have a trait which is similarly dead (Shattered Aegis) > Any nerf was an overnerf, nerfing it at all was the issue. > It's just Anet's balance laziness as usual. Ticks me off tbh. I wouldnt call it laziness, this was malicious.

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > > > > > > > I'd be cool with that if there were a secondary channeled mode of it that turned it into a faster roll on the ground for about 900 distance but take out damage or something. That kit is a pain to make work, there's always some big compromise in traits or utility that just doesn't warrant it over other kits and builds. > > > > > > > > Honestly? > > > > The **problem people have** with Dagger/Dagger isn't mobility at all, which I've also considered so in the past. > > > > > > > > It's the inability to access Stealth without hitting a target. > > > > > > > > D/P is just all the wonderful things : can Access Stealth anywhere and has a 900 range gap closer, and the gap closer does do some respectable damage. > > > > > > > > I don't really wish to see D/D become something to "compete with D/P" in the same aspects, but I rather D/D be more supportive of a Melee fighter style, with Cleaves etc. > > > > It's not like they have no mobility, people have been using Heartseeker spam to move around for awhile now. > > > > And besides, no one is stopping Thief from using Shadowstep Signet, which thieves have been using back in the old days to gap close from 2000 range away. > > > > > > > > Thieves could definitely use a good cleave for pve and wvw anyway. > > > > > > > > Here's another fun idea though, which I know all Thieves will reject with their life : > > > > **This new cleave skill I've proposed replaces Heartseeker as Dagger 2, and Heartseeker becomes Dagger/Dagger 3** > > > > Goodbye D/P > > > > > > > > #;9 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually do think that they ought to remove either the leap from heartseeker, or make leaps through smoke fields do something other than stealth. If they did that, D/P SA DD and permastealth DE would be a LOT more manageable, and it would pave the way for buffs that don't just make those two specs stupidly OP in return. D/P is perfectly viable when played with less stealth access (HoT DA/trick/DD D/P meta for instance), so it's not like losing that will kill the kit outright. > > > > > > > They would be unplayable. D/P in HoT worked without stealth because it had pulmonary impact to work off of, a strong trait incentivising headshots. That trait is currently unplayable. So remove the leap finisher, and D/P just becomes a vastly inferior S/D weaponset, not that that one is good to begin with. It *will* kill the kit outright. > > > > > On topic; in WvW, D/D either needs the damage to be an assassin set, or it needs more mobility somehow to make it better in a longer fight. At the moment it doesn't have the damage, and D/P outclasses it both in movement and in defensive potential through blinds and interrupts. It had a niche but it has lost it through progressive nerfs over the years, it either needs damage nerfs reverted or it needs a rework. > > > > If Death Blossom was less clunky (or expensive) and had some damage the power build could use, it would be a much better defensive set than D/P. Evades are a lot more valuable than blinds and interrupts for defense. It never really had a niche precisely because death blossom sucks and because it lacks mobility. > > That was the point of me saying that it'd pave the way for buffs without making D/P even more OP. Stuff like making PI actually useable was part of what I meant by that. They could buff PI *literally right now*, and it wouldnt break anything. Theyre not avoiding buffing PI because theyre worried it would make D/P stronger, theyre not buffing it because they want it to be unplayable. Thats the reason it got nerfed in the first place.

> @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"Svarty.8019" said: > > > > @"Caedmon.6798" said: > > > > > @"Svarty.8019" said: > > > > > We've all got stories about battles we've had. The most memorable for me are the 10-ish people ones. You know, where it's not small enough to be ganky and not big enough to be zergy. They're the Goldilocks battles. The fun ones. > > > > > > > > > > Sadly, there's a recurring theme that thwarts these stories. The Thief always gets away. > > > > > > > > > > Whether it's our thief or the enemy thief. It makes a mockery of the game. How is anybody supposed to take combat in GW2 seriously when they know they can roll thief and never die? > > > > > > > > How is anyone able to take combat in this game seriously if they dont even know how to counter a class yet ask for nerfs. > > > > > > > > GImme more carry mechanicccss !! Going down 4x in a minute wont cut it !!! The 2 types of stealth traps wont cut it !!! All the class reveals wont cut it !!! Im just not good enough pls nurf :( > > > Four of us were forced to abandon our attempts to defend OUR camp due to two deadeyes. How is that even remotely fair or balanced? > > > > lmao, hope you have some recording, because it must have been hilarious. Or does "insightful comment" rule not apply to you, so in place of an argument we can make up any story we want to fit the side we're taking and claim we're correct now? > > i mean, that ain't even hard. p1 runs toward one deadeye, gets sniped. p2-4 run to the other, it just disengages. first deadeye closes up and snipes p2 from behind. panic, ppl turn, 2nd deadeye snipes p3... > You have to be really bad to be able to just get sniped by the most predictable burst in the game, so, yknow, that doesnt help his case much. And if DE 2 disengages, they can just turn around and pile on DE1, since DE2 has nothing he can do since he lost his initiative. > thieves overall are still extremly overpowered. basically the dmg nerfs that happened hit them and rangers the least of all classes. roamers overall kinda have to deal with far less incoming damage now. before a well played healfirebrand could even offensively kill thieves... now you need to have quick fingers to switch set before the thief engages, or it's a long running game. > Uh, no, actually. Damage-wise thieves were one of the hardest hits. They took the regular damage nerfs everyone else took, but then also got nerfs to their traitlines, to assassins signet, leaving them with much less damage. And damage nerfs hit them harder in general since theyre a burst class too. Thieves arent overpowered. Id not even call them strong. Theyre a class that never dies, but also never kills. They just reset over and over, annoying you ,but never posing a threat.

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > > > I'd be cool with that if there were a secondary channeled mode of it that turned it into a faster roll on the ground for about 900 distance but take out damage or something. That kit is a pain to make work, there's always some big compromise in traits or utility that just doesn't warrant it over other kits and builds. > > > > Honestly? > > The **problem people have** with Dagger/Dagger isn't mobility at all, which I've also considered so in the past. > > > > It's the inability to access Stealth without hitting a target. > > > > D/P is just all the wonderful things : can Access Stealth anywhere and has a 900 range gap closer, and the gap closer does do some respectable damage. > > > > I don't really wish to see D/D become something to "compete with D/P" in the same aspects, but I rather D/D be more supportive of a Melee fighter style, with Cleaves etc. > > It's not like they have no mobility, people have been using Heartseeker spam to move around for awhile now. > > And besides, no one is stopping Thief from using Shadowstep Signet, which thieves have been using back in the old days to gap close from 2000 range away. > > > > Thieves could definitely use a good cleave for pve and wvw anyway. > > > > Here's another fun idea though, which I know all Thieves will reject with their life : > > **This new cleave skill I've proposed replaces Heartseeker as Dagger 2, and Heartseeker becomes Dagger/Dagger 3** > > Goodbye D/P > > > > #;9 > > > > > > I actually do think that they ought to remove either the leap from heartseeker, or make leaps through smoke fields do something other than stealth. If they did that, D/P SA DD and permastealth DE would be a LOT more manageable, and it would pave the way for buffs that don't just make those two specs stupidly OP in return. D/P is perfectly viable when played with less stealth access (HoT DA/trick/DD D/P meta for instance), so it's not like losing that will kill the kit outright. > They would be unplayable. D/P in HoT worked without stealth because it had pulmonary impact to work off of, a strong trait incentivising headshots. That trait is currently unplayable. So remove the leap finisher, and D/P just becomes a vastly inferior S/D weaponset, not that that one is good to begin with. It *will* kill the kit outright. > On topic; in WvW, D/D either needs the damage to be an assassin set, or it needs more mobility somehow to make it better in a longer fight. At the moment it doesn't have the damage, and D/P outclasses it both in movement and in defensive potential through blinds and interrupts. It had a niche but it has lost it through progressive nerfs over the years, it either needs damage nerfs reverted or it needs a rework. If Death Blossom was less clunky (or expensive) and had some damage the power build could use, it would be a much better defensive set than D/P. Evades are a lot more valuable than blinds and interrupts for defense. It never really had a niche precisely because death blossom sucks and because it lacks mobility.

You should be happy if the enemy team has a Deadeye. It means you will win. Thief is already not doing great, and DE is its worst build by far.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > are thiefs still pretending they go trickery for preparedness? > totally not for 15% and 20% steal cd reductions? nor is it the daze that is unblockable due to swipe that hard counters half the classes? > totally not for unblockable theft that will remove all important boons first nor is it for lead attacks massive 15% dmg boost. > its definitely taken for that 3 kitten ini increase. If youre not being facetious, yeah, it kinda is. Lead attacks basically doesnt add any damage in thieves most used scenarios because it only works on spent initiative *while already in combat*. Your initial burst gets 0 damage, and after that you might get 5% damage on your one shadowshot, but that does bugger all. Lead attack isnt a "massive damage boost" its a trait that got nerfed into irrelevancy. The daze and steal cd reductions are very good too, but if preparedness was baseline, and if acrobatics and CS werent thoroughly unplayable, then yeah, with preparedness being baseline, there could be situations in which you switch off of Trickery. DE in particular would love to drop trickery.

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > Why? Seriously, this change does literally *nothing* other than nerf the already severely underperforming DE. Regular thief doesnt care, you're not gonna be going into stealth after a stealth attack very often. Ranger, Engineer and Mesmer don't care, the first 2 don't have enough stealth to repeat it, and if Mesmer is revealed, youre already dead. Im pretty sure the only build that would *marginally* care is trapper DH. > > > > > > > > > > Stealth is annoying, thats why. DE being non-meta has been very good for the game. DD and core thief have been carried by stealth for years and thief mains always cry about nerfs that attempt to balance this. Stealth 1 shots are dumb. Stealth resets are dumb. Constant stealthing in combat is dumb. Stealth is far too abundant and its bad for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > We shouldnt nerf things just because theyre annoying. A lot of people find conditions very annoying. Or Blocks, or invuln. This also doesnt actually hit regular thieves because you dont stealth in-combat. DD and Core Thief were *never* "carried by stealth", the only thing that was "carrying" them is Shortbow 5. They dropped D/P for S/P and S/D before, remember? Stealth 1 shots dont exist outside of maybe Mesmer anymore. Stealth resets are just inferior to shortbow 5 resets because the enemy can punish you for it. In-combat stealth is basically telling your enemy "kill me, Im giving you 1.25 seconds of free damage that I wont be able to defend myself during, so this is an easy guaranteed kill". Stealth is not even nearly as relevant as people think it is, let alone bad for the game. > > > > > > In this case, annoying means bad design. Yes sb 5 is strong, but stealth often enables its effectiveness. Stealth gives thieves the means to decap or enter a +1 without the enemy knowing, sb 5 just allows them to travel faster and have z axis mobility. s/d has had a role in pvp for ages, and s/p was mainly a meme when people realized that noobs dont know how to deal with pistol whip. The 2 main thief builds for the last year have been d/p and condi, both usually running SA. Combat stealth is very strong because it breaks target, and you can reposition while your opponent can only guess your location. Stealth is far more relevant than you think, and yes, too much of it is bad for the game. > > > > In that case youre gonna have an even tougher time explaining how stealth is bad design. Despite stronger versions of it existing in just about every MMO. Stealth *never* enables SB5s effectiveness. SB5 is at its best when used on its own instead of wasting initiative on stealthing. Youre rarely going to stealth up to decap, because just getting there faster vs SB5 is better in 95+% of the time. For +1ing, if youre on D/P, yeah you stealth, but again, you can still do it without that, since D/P is just one build. S/P wasnt a meme, it was an effective build until it got nerfed and things around it changed. And yeah since the disastrous february megapatch killed all other builds, those are the only 2 played, but keep in mind, condi thief was a meme before that. > > > > Combat stealth is *very* weak. Here is the problem with "it breaks target". It uh, doesnt exactly. Any channeled attack launched on a target who enters stealth will hit 100% of it. Any targetted launched on a target who then enters stealth will hit 100%. And quite often, attacks launched *after* stealth is entered still track. And thats ignoring that, in order to enter stealth, you had to give your enemy 1-1.25 seconds of free hits on you, which completely negates any damage you may have avoided in the first place. And as for repositioning, it doesnt work that way. A competent enemy can track you through stealth and negate your repositioning. Its relevant out of combat, but the proposed changes does jack all to affect that. Its completely irrelevant in combat, as the very few times you enter it, your goal is to exit it ASAP. > > Stealth is weak because you can't use it to counter channeled attacks and targeted leaps and enemies can track you through it anyway. It's practically a disadvantage for thieves! > > Seems reasonable... I mean, yeah, it basically is a disadvantage to stay in in-combat. You enter it only for backstab. Because otherwise, you give the enemy 1-1.25 seconds of free damage unconditionally, then a few seconds of damage so long as they can track you (which most of them can).

> @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > Why? Seriously, this change does literally *nothing* other than nerf the already severely underperforming DE. Regular thief doesnt care, you're not gonna be going into stealth after a stealth attack very often. Ranger, Engineer and Mesmer don't care, the first 2 don't have enough stealth to repeat it, and if Mesmer is revealed, youre already dead. Im pretty sure the only build that would *marginally* care is trapper DH. > > > > > > Stealth is annoying, thats why. DE being non-meta has been very good for the game. DD and core thief have been carried by stealth for years and thief mains always cry about nerfs that attempt to balance this. Stealth 1 shots are dumb. Stealth resets are dumb. Constant stealthing in combat is dumb. Stealth is far too abundant and its bad for the game. > > > > > > > We shouldnt nerf things just because theyre annoying. A lot of people find conditions very annoying. Or Blocks, or invuln. This also doesnt actually hit regular thieves because you dont stealth in-combat. DD and Core Thief were *never* "carried by stealth", the only thing that was "carrying" them is Shortbow 5. They dropped D/P for S/P and S/D before, remember? Stealth 1 shots dont exist outside of maybe Mesmer anymore. Stealth resets are just inferior to shortbow 5 resets because the enemy can punish you for it. In-combat stealth is basically telling your enemy "kill me, Im giving you 1.25 seconds of free damage that I wont be able to defend myself during, so this is an easy guaranteed kill". Stealth is not even nearly as relevant as people think it is, let alone bad for the game. > > In this case, annoying means bad design. Yes sb 5 is strong, but stealth often enables its effectiveness. Stealth gives thieves the means to decap or enter a +1 without the enemy knowing, sb 5 just allows them to travel faster and have z axis mobility. s/d has had a role in pvp for ages, and s/p was mainly a meme when people realized that noobs dont know how to deal with pistol whip. The 2 main thief builds for the last year have been d/p and condi, both usually running SA. Combat stealth is very strong because it breaks target, and you can reposition while your opponent can only guess your location. Stealth is far more relevant than you think, and yes, too much of it is bad for the game. In that case youre gonna have an even tougher time explaining how stealth is bad design. Despite stronger versions of it existing in just about every MMO. Stealth *never* enables SB5s effectiveness. SB5 is at its best when used on its own instead of wasting initiative on stealthing. Youre rarely going to stealth up to decap, because just getting there faster vs SB5 is better in 95+% of the time. For +1ing, if youre on D/P, yeah you stealth, but again, you can still do it without that, since D/P is just one build. S/P wasnt a meme, it was an effective build until it got nerfed and things around it changed. And yeah since the disastrous february megapatch killed all other builds, those are the only 2 played, but keep in mind, condi thief was a meme before that. Combat stealth is *very* weak. Here is the problem with "it breaks target". It uh, doesnt exactly. Any channeled attack launched on a target who enters stealth will hit 100% of it. Any targetted launched on a target who then enters stealth will hit 100%. And quite often, attacks launched *after* stealth is entered still track. And thats ignoring that, in order to enter stealth, you had to give your enemy 1-1.25 seconds of free hits on you, which completely negates any damage you may have avoided in the first place. And as for repositioning, it doesnt work that way. A competent enemy can track you through stealth and negate your repositioning. Its relevant out of combat, but the proposed changes does jack all to affect that. Its completely irrelevant in combat, as the very few times you enter it, your goal is to exit it ASAP.

> @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > Why? Seriously, this change does literally *nothing* other than nerf the already severely underperforming DE. Regular thief doesnt care, you're not gonna be going into stealth after a stealth attack very often. Ranger, Engineer and Mesmer don't care, the first 2 don't have enough stealth to repeat it, and if Mesmer is revealed, youre already dead. Im pretty sure the only build that would *marginally* care is trapper DH. > > Stealth is annoying, thats why. DE being non-meta has been very good for the game. DD and core thief have been carried by stealth for years and thief mains always cry about nerfs that attempt to balance this. Stealth 1 shots are dumb. Stealth resets are dumb. Constant stealthing in combat is dumb. Stealth is far too abundant and its bad for the game. > We shouldnt nerf things just because theyre annoying. A lot of people find conditions very annoying. Or Blocks, or invuln. This also doesnt actually hit regular thieves because you dont stealth in-combat. DD and Core Thief were *never* "carried by stealth", the only thing that was "carrying" them is Shortbow 5. They dropped D/P for S/P and S/D before, remember? Stealth 1 shots dont exist outside of maybe Mesmer anymore. Stealth resets are just inferior to shortbow 5 resets because the enemy can punish you for it. In-combat stealth is basically telling your enemy "kill me, Im giving you 1.25 seconds of free damage that I wont be able to defend myself during, so this is an easy guaranteed kill". Stealth is not even nearly as relevant as people think it is, let alone bad for the game.

Why? Seriously, this change does literally *nothing* other than nerf the already severely underperforming DE. Regular thief doesnt care, you're not gonna be going into stealth after a stealth attack very often. Ranger, Engineer and Mesmer don't care, the first 2 don't have enough stealth to repeat it, and if Mesmer is revealed, youre already dead. Im pretty sure the only build that would *marginally* care is trapper DH.

> @"Hannelore.8153" said: > Some classes literally have the same health as Thief, though? > > In case of Ele you even have less armor, yet are fully visible all the time, and without all the access to teleports and such since both Guard and Ele only have one utility port, and MAYBE one on weapon, depending on what's equipped. So to say you're super squishy and always playing on the edge when you can just disappear, even porting 5k range, is just silly. > Ele has a harder time running away, but a *much* easier time surviving in a fight. In fact, weaver is one of the hardest classes to actually pin down. Squishiness has nothing to do with how well you can avoid a fight, else spawn mesmer would be the tankiest class. Its how well you can survive in a fight. Thief cant, at all. Ele can with ease. > My Daredevil runs a full evasion build with no stealth and still dies more than my stealthy Deadeye. But players who haven't played a 100% fully visible class in competitive modes can't understand how awful it is to be *targettable* at 1.5k+ range. > Not really? Stealth is good for initiating fights, its pretty bad for actually surviving. Id take evades, blocks and invulns over stealth 10/10 times (on that note, Anet, pls give throw elixir S evade instead of stealth).

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > I've been playing a glass thief d/p thief as of late, scrapping the sustain of SA for crit strikes. Despite claims of CS doing less damage than SA, I've been noticing huge numbers. > > It's especially nuts when opting to run Deadeye, I consistently hit 10kish malicious backstabs against squishy targets. Mind you, DE has inherently higher risk with the d/p set than DD, but boy is the payoff nice. I honestly prefer the higher risk to higher payoff. It's more in-line with how I prefer to play. CS does less damage in realistic scenarios. The problem is most of the damage multipliers turn off in a realistic fight, so youre just left with less damage than the flat damage procs from SA. Especially against high toughness targets since those damage procs ignore armour.

> @"reikken.4961" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > I can't tell if you're being facetious or not > > > in case you're not, shadow shot usually does about 5k to non-heavies > > > heartseeker about 7k if it downs the guy. have gotten some 9ks, but those are rare, and always overkill > > > > These numbers as usual complete kitten lmao 7k heartseeker? If all three damage lines are taken which makes the build useless and stars align maybe but far from the usual. Man u guys and ur inflated numbers are halarious, grow up omg it's a mmo. > > one and a half damage lines > critical strikes (damage) > trickery (half damage) > daredevil (with dash. defensive) > Daredevil is a damage traitline. Also good luck actually maintaining critical strikes multipliers in a realistic scenario rather than all of them turning off as soon as the fight starts. And even then you dont do 7k, you might do 6k if you push it.