[Doc] Mesmer changes suggestions for CmC

[Koen.1327]

you assume that everyone just want the dodge back, IP or dist back - my assumption is that anet wanted to have trade offs for elite specs and im ok with this actually (mirage still has 2 dodge in pve - inconstant)

 

especially chrono feels unique now, problem is more that abilities that chrono enhances (mostly phantasms) are complete garbage resulting in a extremely downgraded mesmer

in the past they nuked phantasm dmg and other core mesmer skills, traits instead of chrono and mirage - now everything is swept down

 

for chrono phantasms really need consistent dmg, otherwise you'd never pick chrono over core or mirage

both mesmer and mirage are mostly fine with me, i would just like some constancy in either 1 or 2 dodges in all game modes instead of a cheap -50 endurance in only wvw/pvp

for mesmer to become meta in pvp a revert on portal would be enough otherwise it's fine for ranked atm

 

my point of view:

mostly pvp (high plat / top 100), OW Pve (also some strikes/fractal), only little wvw

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Koen.1327" said:

> ...i would just like some constancy in either 1 or 2 dodges in all game modes instead of a cheap -50 endurance in only wvw/pvp...

Yeah fully agree with this - the inconsistency makes it more of a stupid skill split rather than overall spec tradeoff that should be consistent across all game modes. I'd actually be fine with either 1 or 2, as long as the scaffolding mechanics made sense.

 

 

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"Yoci.2481" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > If you want to buff mesmer in any capacity you absolutely NEED to delete 1 shot perma stealth mesmer. I just got out of a game where the mesmer was perma stealthed and INSTANTLY killing me on thief with 20645 HP from stealth. This was in a platinum level game, not low tier clown fiestas. There was no avoiding it - no dodging, no predicting it, the dude would burst you from stealth and you were INSTANTLY dead the second he hit you unless you were lucky and randomly dodging someone else. This is 20645 HP and 2029 armor - pretty absurd if you ask me.

> >

> > Imo, please make chrono an actual "support" and completely revamp wells to follow you around like facets with actives or something. Chrono could be really cool and fun but in it's current form it's either a bunker sitting with wells or just...useless.

>

> Mesmer doesn't have perma stealth. Torch stealth is 3 seconds at a cool down of 30 seconds, 2 seconds from signet (35 second cool down) and 6 seconds from mass invis (75 second cool down, 60 traited) for a total duration of 11 seconds (16.5 with PU trait). If you add Decoy (3 second stealth, 45 second cool down) you lose the daze mantra. One shots are rare but yes, Thief is one of the professions that actually can get one shot occasionally. Although it's not really a one shot, it's a combination of at least 5 different skills (not counting stealth) and can only be done once every 35 seconds (28 with Master of Manipulation). If you react quickly you can often just dodge the damage. Use your second dodge for Phantasmal Berserker and pressure the Mesmer, because he now has nothing left to hurt you for another 8 or so seconds.

>

> If what you describe really happened like that the Mesmer was hacking in some way.

 

He could have been hacking, because you die to shatter + mantra + gsword 2 damage and don't even get a phantasm summoned onto you. It's instant death.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

I stg if they force chrono into a support I will just uninstall the game for real.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Terrorhuz.4695" said:

> I stg if they force chrono into a support I will just uninstall the game for real.

 

I personally feel Chronomancer should be an offensive support with more quality of life than it currently has outside of clunky wells and if it's winning 1v1s it's through heavy use of slow, and the third upcoming elite spec is the power damage king. This would give all three elite specs a niche: power, condition, support and defense so they aren't stepping on each other's toes with core being the all-rounder.

 

All the crit damage boosts they stuffed into Chronomancer never sat right with me

[Kylden Ar.3724]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> No, thief cannot do 20645 damage from stealth instantly. it's not mathematically possible, and if it is , yes, nerf that too. But perma stealth in general is an issue, not just a mesmer one, as well as hiding animations in stealth.

>

> The second you press a skill, you should unstealth. Not at the end of your skill, at the START.

 

1) Yes thieves can do that much and do all the time in WvW. It is a super glass canon setup and uses almost all their offensive cooldowns, and if you happen to breathe in their general direction they die, but they can and will do that.

 

2) Sure, agreed, if the same is done to thieves. Right now the trigger to drop stealth is doing damage. Let's see the thieves stack-stealth in their smoke field when pressing the skill makes them de-stealth.

 

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"Yoci.2481" said:

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > If you want to buff mesmer in any capacity you absolutely NEED to delete 1 shot perma stealth mesmer. I just got out of a game where the mesmer was perma stealthed and INSTANTLY killing me on thief with 20645 HP from stealth. This was in a platinum level game, not low tier clown fiestas. There was no avoiding it - no dodging, no predicting it, the dude would burst you from stealth and you were INSTANTLY dead the second he hit you unless you were lucky and randomly dodging someone else. This is 20645 HP and 2029 armor - pretty absurd if you ask me.

> > >

> > > Imo, please make chrono an actual "support" and completely revamp wells to follow you around like facets with actives or something. Chrono could be really cool and fun but in it's current form it's either a bunker sitting with wells or just...useless.

> >

> > Mesmer doesn't have perma stealth. Torch stealth is 3 seconds at a cool down of 30 seconds, 2 seconds from signet (35 second cool down) and 6 seconds from mass invis (75 second cool down, 60 traited) for a total duration of 11 seconds (16.5 with PU trait). If you add Decoy (3 second stealth, 45 second cool down) you lose the daze mantra. One shots are rare but yes, Thief is one of the professions that actually can get one shot occasionally. Although it's not really a one shot, it's a combination of at least 5 different skills (not counting stealth) and can only be done once every 35 seconds (28 with Master of Manipulation). If you react quickly you can often just dodge the damage. Use your second dodge for Phantasmal Berserker and pressure the Mesmer, because he now has nothing left to hurt you for another 8 or so seconds.

> >

> > If what you describe really happened like that the Mesmer was hacking in some way.

>

> He could have been hacking, because you die to shatter + mantra + gsword 2 damage and don't even get a phantasm summoned onto you. It's instant death.

 

That is more likely. The one-shot Mesmer meme has not been a thing for a while now.

[Leonidrex.5649]

This might be long it might not.

Mesmer problem.

1 After shattering clones dont get to reach their targets, be it dying to random aoe, being slower then enemies or just having derpy AI.

2 Phantasms get 1shoted and are stupid. Corona burst 1shots all clones and phantasms in aoe.

3 Important skills bug and dont work.

a Sword ambush

b Sword 3 teleport

c Illusionary wave needs to hit people that are on slightly higher elevation

4 Mesmer in general is the ONLY class that has to give up their defensive cooldown to exact offensive pressure, be it using sword 3 to get clone or jaunt. using dodge for ambush. using clones for shatters and not having them for disort, or just using axe 3/sword for mobility. It is fine and good design, but other classes dont follow it and leave mesmer behind in the pace of the fights, and this is why thief shits on mesmer so hard, they hit hard. and not allow you to use your defensive cooldowns offensively on them.

5 Mesmers mobility is really bad, for how squishy it is, being forced into lynx rune on every build is stupid.

6 Mesmer doesnt have any boons whatsoever in their kit, entire utility bar is fucking useless and gives nothing, every option of cleansing other then EM and AT is SUPER bad to boot. Chaos and staff are only 2 things that have any boons, and you lads made both of them unplayable.

More smaller issues.

GS 4 phantasm turns into a clone too slowly, it needs to be much faster.

Give us a proper GS trait, not the joke we got.

Consider making gs 2 target similar how gs4 flies, this skill forces you into melee range and its finicky and buggy in melee.

Torch 5 misses too much.

"1shot" mes is a mess, get rid of MoP, and mental anguish and it will be gone for good. Rework mental anguish into sustain dmg trait, like gain might when shatter hits or something.

[viquing.8254]

Heyo,

 

Thanks for doing this.

I will just write was not already written of differ from other opinion.

(I can also do a full trait by trait, skill overview but it will not be read....)

 

## In General :

- Remove condi application on clones : it create too much of disparities between condi and power and it is a problem since launch which lead to the worst nerfs we ever get. Bringing back the condi on mesmer skills.

- Look at all bugs listed in @"Lincolnbeard.1735" post bug post.Launching a skill who has 50% chances of fail because of bug or unreliable feature is not fun at all.

- I join some already posted suggestion on weapon who don't do what they are supposed to do.

- Give a sustain option on GS : looking at all meta weapon, they all have 1 sustain option, should it be a 0.5 evade/block on a skill.

- Thinks about phantasms rework and what they should be, currently there is ~5 deads phantasms including utility. Which is meh considering it's one of our main mechanics.

 

## Chrono :

 

- If not bringing back IP, thinks about doubling illusions HP in this spec.

- Rework CS to make it only a full sustain heal back positioning skill : higher duration with a little healing, didn't double skills anymore (particulary elites...).

- Thinks about wells utilities in PvP context.

- Make shatter trigger teamfight utilities instead of worst version on the core one.

- Is chrono supposed to apply quickness and slow or is it for other class only ?

 

## Mirage :

 

- Remove ambush on evade : put it on a bar who fill when you dodge(or cast illusion) who can be activated when you reach a certain amount or to certain shatter. Think about making IH minor.

- Leave mirage clock when you eat a mirror, remove it baseline when you evade.

 

 

That write I can do easily 3 full page of suggestions, but I will just stay concise.

[Taril.8619]

TFW a thread about trying to get Mesmer to not be Memer ends up getting derailed with qq about "Perma-Stealth" and "One Shot" builds :'(

 

(P.s. Just make Stealth not stack like how Superspeed doesn't stack. Voila, now stealth durations across the whole game can no longer get to busted levels. While only really affecting PvP/WvW and a minor thing about skipping content in Dungeons/Fractals. If someone wants to chain Stealth to sneak up on you in PvP/WvW, well you're going to see a big ol' Smoke Screen/Shadow Refuge/Veil field pop up in the middle of nowhere)

 

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> 4 Mesmer in general is the ONLY class that has to give up their defensive cooldown to exact offensive pressure

 

Technically, Rev's too. They can either spend their energy on their Stunbreak **OR** on offensive utilities. With exception of Herald because lulwhatareclassmechanics

 

Even more so when you account for ANet's "Balancing" of "Just increase the cost Kappa" that is used for Thief and Rev irregardless of how awful such things are to QoL play (You know, like their idea of making the dodge themed Mesmer E-Spec get only 1 dodge)

[mortrialus.3062]

I don't get the desire to break ambushes from Mirage Cloak. Aside from Axe none of the Ambush skills can be cast to completion within the window of Mirage Cloak and with Axe the animation after casting still has a long windup you can predict and react to. When you factor in the 0.25 second window before you're able to cast the ambush, Sword, Greatsword, Staff, and Scepter all offer plenty of time within the animation to interrupt. With staff you're still vulnerable for 0.5 seconds of the cast, scepter you're vulnerable for 1s of the cast, Sword 0.25 seconds of the cast. The main problem with Mirage Cloak was dodge while stunned which should have never made it to live.

 

Like thieves can spam stuff like Flanking Strike, Death Blossom, Pistol Whip, and Vault 3-4 times in a row that are potent attacks with built in evade frames. The Ambush attacks themselves operate on a more fair and limited system than that already even with two dodges, and with the Mirage Cloak icon its even more fair in showing exactly when the evade frames are than a lot of other evade skills you just have to learn over time when they're still vulnerable.

[viquing.8254]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I don't get the desire to break ambushes from Mirage Cloak. Aside from Axe none of the Ambush skills can be cast to completion within the window of Mirage Cloak and with Axe the animation after casting still has a long windup you can predict and react to. When you factor in the 0.25 second window before you're able to cast the ambush, Sword, Greatsword, Staff, and Scepter all offer plenty of time within the animation to interrupt. With staff you're still vulnerable for 0.5 seconds of the cast, scepter you're vulnerable for 1s of the cast, Sword 0.25 seconds of the cast. The main problem with Mirage Cloak was dodge while stunned which should have never made it to live.

>

> Like thieves can spam stuff like Flanking Strike, Death Blossom, Pistol Whip, and Vault 3-4 times in a row that are potent attacks with built in evade frames. The Ambush attacks themselves operate on a more fair and limited system than that already even with two dodges, and with the Mirage Cloak icon its even more fair in showing exactly when the evade frames are than a lot of other evade skills you just have to learn over time when they're still vulnerable.

 

For multiple reasons :

You will get back the evade when needed sustain. Ambush can then be balanced not taking into account the during evade things and it will make one more tool.

Even if you are right in your analysis, the feeling of "mesmer is op perma evade" from average people will drop down. (And we already know that feeling conditionate more balance than data.).

That's why I'm more for a independant fillbar.

[otto.5684]

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> just to give you a start point:

> cmc couldnt say a lot about chrono (changes were done by someone else, but he will look into it) but he clearly said, that they found that mirage cloak dodge is an unhealthy mechanic, too forgiving (what was kind of funny considering how forgiving other classes are to play in their defensive mechanics compared to a squishy mesmer). sure, the 2 abilities to cast while dodging or to dodge while being stunned combined in one dodge is by itself broken, or at least pretty strong. they did "hardhandle it" with deleting one dodge, i guess duo to missing ideas how to deal with it otherwise and prob due to some problems to get mechanical pvp changes done which are mostly in hand of the pve skill team.

>

> i asked if it is possible to delete the ability to dodge while being stunned and didnt get a clear answer, but it sounded more like it might not be possible. the dodge is either instant and has no animation and for that the mirage can cast while using the dodge and can dodge while being stunned (same way you can use every instant skill during stun and during using other skills) or they turn it into a normal dodge and mirage cant do any of it anymore. with other words changing mc itself (the mechanic, the abilities mc brings by itself) seems not possible.

>

> so all we can do is to put the strong mechanic of mc into a mechanical concept that balance out the strong abilities. anet did it with deleting one dodge what is a bad solution bc it destroys the mirage mechanic and even dumbs it down. i think the old 2 dodge power mirage proved already, that a mirage spec can be balanced and high skill need even with mc used. the correct ambush design seems to be key by giving the need to mirage to dodge offensive to have enough impact and that way create a hard decision making and higher cost in that decision making about when and for what to use the dodges.

> but more of that from me later.

 

What is there to talk about when he says mirage dodge is unhealthy mechanic? Mirage was out of the meta way before the Feb patch with 2 dodges. So is CMC ignorant or playing dumb?

 

And overall, it is clear from the Feb patch and going forward that CMC and the rest of the PvP devs dunno wtf they are doing. So why the fuck should I waste my time with suggestions. My only suggestion is to undo the Feb patch.

[ZeteCommander.4937]

To be honest, I have no hope for these developers. They are rotten and unreasonable.

I suggest

1. give back mirage endurance.

2. Modify ambush mechanism.Infinite horizon changed to baseline.But cloning only creates visual effects

3. remove the shatter of mirage. Strengthen ambush instead of them. Activate this to make the next ambush very powerful.

4. f4.Get the cloak and random clone becomes a mirror

5. f2.Randomly transferred to a clone location and replace it

[Yoci.2481]

I like that idea or in general the idea of turning Mirage shatters into some kind of ambush and building Mirage around that.

[Gryxis.6950]

> @"ZeteCommander.4937" said:

> To be honest, I have no hope for these developers. They are rotten and unreasonable.

> I suggest

> 1. give back mirage endurance.

> 2. Modify ambush mechanism.Infinite horizon changed to baseline.But cloning only creates visual effects

> 3. remove the shatter of mirage. Strengthen ambush instead of them. Activate this to make the next ambush very powerful.

> 4. f4.Get the cloak and random clone becomes a mirror

> 5. f2.Randomly transferred to a clone location and replace it

 

I really enjoy those suggestions but it could make condi mirage really powerful while not really improving the state of power mirage (which is already really dire, especially compared to its condi counterpart) so more stuff would have to get tweaked

[bravan.3876]

Current Condi/Hybrid-Mirage works without using any Mirage specific condi applications, also not the ones from clones. They do not even use IH and they also do not waste time to use their own ambush on axe. The whole condi application comes from core skills and combos (shatters, clone normal autoattacks and weapons, except of axe 2 and 3 ofc what could also be replaced by a core weapon like scepter). Means there is absolutely no problem to just remove most of the condi dmg from ambush skills (clones and mesmers ambushes). Ofc not only removing most of the condi dmg from ambushes BUT give it more effect/ utility purpose INSTEAD to create the need and incentive to dodge pure offensive to apply effects like immob or daze well timed to actively outplay opponents or to apply boon/debuff effects like might/vuln to prepare a burst shatter combo is the way to go here. That solves the problem with the dodge while stunned ability (which was/ is only broken on IH-Condimirage due the wrong designed and op in dmg condi clone ambushes and autoattacks from clones) and it solves the problem with the too passive playstyle because just pure defensive dodging and only defensive playing while clones do all the job will not be possible anymore for condi IH Mirage.

 

How many condi dmg on Mesmers own ambush and on clones can be balanced post patch with 2 dodges can be fine adjusted by Anet later. But looking at current condi dmg it doesn't need to be that much. Also it will be no problem to then fine adjust also power ambushes based on 2 dodges if needed.

 

 

Balance changes i would do **based on giving Mirage 2 dodges back** are:

 

1. The direct dmg from the Mesmers own gs ambush should be reduced and the might/vuln stacks should be reduced a very little bit too (less than the direct dmg and not that much, that offensive dodging gets worthless). Only if it turns out that it is NEEDED

2. Illusionary ambush, actually the whole retargeting mechanic (means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore, same for IA) should be deleted completely actually.

3. Signet of Illusion should not include the reset of f4 anymore, not only because of Mirage (what clearly has the best synergy to it) but because it is in general too strong, also on core, to have an utility literally half the cd of an complete invuln skill. It should have excluded f4 since game release. It can get a little cd decrease (5-10s less cd) and a little bit shorter casttime as compensation.

4. Condi ambushes should get reworked to not add remarkable condi dmg anymore instead should be more about utility effects the player needs to time well and different from pure defensive dodges to get enough reward out of them. (My suggestions for condi ambush rework see below). A Mirage not timing ambush rewards (from his own but also clone ambushes with IH) for active and tactical outplays well, should have less impact than a core Mesmer, that counts for power and condi style.

5. Normal clone autoattacks should lose all condi dmg (except for one pseudo hit like on power weapons). If needed you can move some of the lost condi dmg back to shatters again.

6. IH should be considered to be a minor trait, a Mirage without IH feels like a core on steroids, with only some passive mistake cover and a too strong instant dodge added but barely any different gameplay style. Without IH there is also barely any skill ceiling added to the spec, which would balance out the strong features the spec has from MC. Major GM traits should be reworked based on IH being baseline (see below).

7. Mantra of Pain should be reworked to a non dmg Mantra (means rly zero dmg). The best way would be to turn it into a boon remove or other utility Mantra instead the selfbuff for oneshots nature it still has. The face your target requirement from Mantras can be deleted after that (ofc Mantras still should not hit when obstructed).

8. PU only gives one second additional stealth when traited, for that the boon duration gets increased. Random Aegis proc gets deleted, instead the Mesmer gets a thoughness bonus (or 30-40% dmg reduction buff) for 1-2 seconds after dropping out of stealth.

9. Sword ambush could lose the clone generation on the Mesmers own ambush. It is always a problem when Mesmers don't have to decide between clone generation and pure dmg traits like SC anymore and just can have both. Also the Inspiration signet invuln-ambush-clone spam build would get less obnoxious.

 

That would be the ideal way to balance Mirage to a balanced post patch state lvl but without killing skill ceiling (even adding tons of it) and without contradicting the inherent costs the spec has implemented since pof release. Without dumbing down the general dodgemanagement by only one dodge bar forcing to spam dodges on cd and without contradicting the whole spec mechanic and doom it to be more passive than before on power and just as passive as before on condi when using IH.

 

According to Anet not having the ressources to add that much effort and work into good balance you just can ignore Nr. 6 if too much work (but EM should be reduced to only one condi remove instead 2 when Mirage has 2 dodges again). Reworking condi ambushes meanwhile is rly not that much of work.

 

For the condi ambushes how they could be reworked:

 

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> As said they should be less about dmg more about effects/ utility giving incentive and the need to time them different from pure defensive dodges to make tactical active on purpose outplays possible and needed to play it at maximum potential. Sword and GS are good examples for that. There are different possibilities.

 

> - Scepter should be changed in general to have only one hit, not mulitple projectiles. Instead dmg it could provide a 1/2 sec immob on an well animated projectile with balanced travel speed and cast time (comparable to Engi rifle immob skill), while clones get a weaker version of 1/4 or 1/8 immob on hit. That can be comboed before going for a scepter 3 cast to secure it will hit a good part of the cast before the target can dodge without using a condi remove. It would fit to the weaponstyle and give incentives to combo with other weapon- and shatter skills. Another possibility would be chill or cripple (here maybe with a bit of condi dmg on the Mesmers own ambush in addition because those 2 utlitiy condis are weaker than immob).

> - Axe could get a boni to condition dmg stat for x seconds (not too long, comparable to the might/ vulnstack duration on gs, means short only to prepare a burst not to make a perma buff that would be passive again), aside from a low dmg application on the Mesmers own ambush, while clones get the weaker version of only stacking condi dmg stat boni (no condi application by themself) for a short duration. That would give the incentive and need to combo ambushes to prepare an axe 3 shatter burst. Other posibility would be to add a more utilitiy based non dmg condi just like i descibed for scepter before.

> - Staff ambush could get a boni in terms of condition duration for x seconds (weaker version on clones, no dmg on clones) on the ambush aside from a low dmg application only on the Mesmers ambush. Alternative adding a non dmg utility condition that fits the staff playstyle or some defensive effect as Quadox suggested (maybe not reflect considering Mesmer already has such a dodge trait).

>

 

 

For new GM traits when IH becomes a minor trait:

 

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" ye I know, I would leave power ambushes as are, i kinda wrote it as a quick note, also would reduce condid amage from autos.

> > And made IH as a baseline, meaning that Cmirage doesnt HAVE to take it, it ahs it for free.

> > Speed of Sand is sad excuse of a trait that shouldnt occupy a trait slot.

> > What I suggest would lower.

> > - Clone ambush damage by 80-95%

> > - Clone auto damage by 80%+

> > - Pistol 4 damage by 10-15%+ ( due to sharper img )

> > - No more stealth ( stealth of 2-3s depending on skills no more 10s+ stealth kitten )

> >

> > What would be gained

> > Condi shatter damage ( active playstyle )

> > Condi damage on mesmer hits ( active playstyle )

> > Extra grandmaster trait ( ofc EM should be reworked ) but other GM are preety bad but its still something ( you have to be melee to proc it for example )

> > Extra damage on mesmer Autos and axe skills in general ( they hit like noodle on melee weapon ) again active playstyle.

> >

> > What should also be put somewhere is condi cleanse, there is seriously no reason for meta mesmer to have 1 or 2 condi clear and thats it.

> >

>

> Not baseline i mean minor trait, IH as minor trait, baseline would be too much of a gift. If you then have 80% lower base dmg on clone ambushes you can then think about grandmaster traits which buff clone ambsuhes in one or another way. More utility (longer effect duration or boonremove when clone ambsuh hits the target) as replacement for current IH grandmaster, more def like they heal you or remove condis from you when doing mirage cloak (replacement for current nerfed to death EM), more dmg (Power and Condi) as replacement for Dune Cloak. Speed of Sand can become baseline. This way you can adjust dmg and effects from clones in two ways: by their base dmg/ base effect duration without grandmaster trait and by how much value you wanna give the grandmaster trait for each kind of build.

 

Means the new 3 major grandmaster traits (and IH as minor trait) would be:

 

1. Dune Cloak: Clone ambush skills (or alternative Mesmer ambushes or just all ambush skills) do x% more power and x% more condi dmg with their ambush attacks

2. Evasive Mirror: Clones heal the Mesmer for x amount of HP for each ambush that hits a target or for each clone that performs MC. Or dodging removes one condition from the Mesmer when at least one clone hit his ambush on a target. Or remove one condition on dodge, when dodging with 3 clones up 2 conditions are removed instead. When we make it clone dependent it is something the Mesmer can work with to get an higher amount of condiremove or healing when creating more clones before dodging or to emergency remove a single but big stack of condi or heal only a little amount, that adds deepness into dodgemanagement.

3. Not beyond the horizon of 99,9 of the playerbase trait: The ambush-effects, like daze, blind, slow, immob, might, vuln etc. (incl. whatever effects you would need to add to condi ambushes for that they lose most of their dmg) have a X% longer duration. Or: Clones remove a boon from targets they hit with their ambush skill (for channelskills with multiple hits on same target or aoe: only the first hit on main target would remove a boon, if that hit gets dodged,blinded or fails for other reasons it doesn't remove the boon, also when the ambush hits the target with the second hit).

 

Something like that.

 

IF Anet completely refuse to give 2 dodges back they could at least seperate the ambush mechanic from MC and give it to a mirage specific f5 ammo skill (2 ammo charges with the recharge timer equally to basic endurance refill of 2 dodges). The f5 button click then activates the ambush window on autoattack for the mesmer and immediately starts the MC+ambush activation on IH clones.

 

For Chrono the fight is like half won with IP coming back. Missing Distortion will probably still hurt pure glass powershatter playstyle too much to become a thing. My pre patch preview suggestions were those:

 

For Chrono the trade off can be simple stat penalty because when it needs to give up sustain and dmg compared to core, to have lower cds on utility effects (like double elite or double boon remove on utility phantams) than it is a trade off makes sense, defines Chrono more as a support and utility spec and does not contradict class or elite mechanics. Also you could just exclude elites from CS reset.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> Current Condi/Hybrid-Mirage works without using any Mirage specific condi applications, also not the ones from clones. They do not even use IH and they also do not waste time to use their own ambush on axe. The whole condi application comes from core skills and combos (shatters, clone normal autoattacks and weapons, except of axe 2 and 3 ofc what could also be replaced by a core weapon like scepter). Means there is absolutely no problem to just remove most of the condi dmg from ambush skills (clones and mesmers ambushes). Ofc not only removing most of the condi dmg from ambushes BUT give it more effect/ utility purpose INSTEAD to create the need and incentive to dodge pure offensive to apply effects like immob or daze well timed to actively outplay opponents or to apply boon/debuff effects like might/vuln to prepare a burst shatter combo is the way to go here.

 

God will you fuck off with this nonsense? Mesmer has subpar damage and condition damage. Mirage is about specializing into a more evasive condition skirmisher that gives it competitive condition damage in PvE and PvP. Your suggestions would not only completely gut condition mirage not just in PvP but also permanently remove mesmer as a viable DPS on the fighters where it's still strong to take a condition mirage.

 

 

 

[bravan.3876]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > Current Condi/Hybrid-Mirage works without using any Mirage specific condi applications, also not the ones from clones. They do not even use IH and they also do not waste time to use their own ambush on axe. The whole condi application comes from core skills and combos (shatters, clone normal autoattacks and weapons, except of axe 2 and 3 ofc what could also be replaced by a core weapon like scepter). Means there is absolutely no problem to just remove most of the condi dmg from ambush skills (clones and mesmers ambushes). Ofc not only removing most of the condi dmg from ambushes BUT give it more effect/ utility purpose INSTEAD to create the need and incentive to dodge pure offensive to apply effects like immob or daze well timed to actively outplay opponents or to apply boon/debuff effects like might/vuln to prepare a burst shatter combo is the way to go here.

>

> God will you kitten off with this nonsense? Mesmer has subpar damage and condition damage. Mirage is about specializing into a more evasive condition skirmisher that gives it competitive condition damage in PvE and PvP. Your suggestions would not only completely gut condition mirage not just in PvP but also permanently remove mesmer as a viable DPS on the fighters where it's still strong to take a condition mirage.

>

>

>

 

No, it will not cut current Condimirage builds. As said current Condimirage builds do not even use any Mirage specific condiapplication. So stop crying about losing something that doesn't even get used atm because the one dodge change nerfed it into uselessness. I guess you are too afraid you can't be carried by passive condi playstyle anymore to see that current Condimirage doesn't even use ambushes or IH clones to apply condi dmg. Start using brain pls, ty. The above suggestions make IH usable AGAIN, also for condi builds (what it currently isn't with only one dodge) and it makes using condi ambushes (from Mesmer itself and clones) worth using AGAIN because of the utility condis they would get instead and will either boost condidmg or make hitting condi skills easier (immob for scepter ambushes for example). YOU GET A SECOND DODGE AND UTILITY CONDIS INSTEAD, THAT IS A VERY GOOD DEAL. At least when you are not afraid of adding some skill ceiling to IH Condimirage (what is probably your problem rofl).

 

Also those changes would solve the problem with op MC which does not exist on power, because of the better and more active ambush desing being more about effects and not mainly only pure dmg and for that they finally create the incentive to dodge pure offensive and with that create enough opportunity costs in dogemanagement to limit the op MC ability uses of dodging while stunned and dodging to cover casts, what also adds more counterplay (mind gaming and the better ability to bait dodges from the Mirage for opponents). Either that or stay with only one dodge and play without IH and without condi ambushes on condi because overnerfed.

 

Otherwise make some constructive suggestions yourself instead only complaining about other ppl posts, while you are too arrogant to waste your own time to make a constructive post yourself.

[ThatOtherAlt.2984]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > Current Condi/Hybrid-Mirage works without using any Mirage specific condi applications, also not the ones from clones. They do not even use IH and they also do not waste time to use their own ambush on axe. The whole condi application comes from core skills and combos (shatters, clone normal autoattacks and weapons, except of axe 2 and 3 ofc what could also be replaced by a core weapon like scepter). Means there is absolutely no problem to just remove most of the condi dmg from ambush skills (clones and mesmers ambushes). Ofc not only removing most of the condi dmg from ambushes BUT give it more effect/ utility purpose INSTEAD to create the need and incentive to dodge pure offensive to apply effects like immob or daze well timed to actively outplay opponents or to apply boon/debuff effects like might/vuln to prepare a burst shatter combo is the way to go here.

> >

> > God will you kitten off with this nonsense? Mesmer has subpar damage and condition damage. Mirage is about specializing into a more evasive condition skirmisher that gives it competitive condition damage in PvE and PvP. Your suggestions would not only completely gut condition mirage not just in PvP but also permanently remove mesmer as a viable DPS on the fighters where it's still strong to take a condition mirage.

> >

> >

> >

>

> No, it will not cut current Condimirage builds. As said current Condimirage builds do not even use any Mirage specific condiapplication. So stop crying about losing something that doesn't even get used atm because the one dodge change nerfed it into uselessness. I guess you are too afraid you can't be carried by passive condi playstyle anymore to see that current Condimirage doesn't even use ambushes or IH clones to apply condi dmg. Start using brain pls, ty. The above suggestions make IH usable AGAIN, also for condi builds (what it currently isn't with only one dodge) and it makes using condi ambushes (from Mesmer itself and clones) worth using AGAIN because of the utility condis they would get instead and will either boost condidmg or make hitting condi skills easier (immob for scepter ambushes for example). YOU GET A SECOND DODGE AND UTILITY CONDIS INSTEAD, THAT IS A VERY GOOD DEAL. At least when you are not afraid of adding some skill ceiling to IH Condimirage (what is probably your problem rofl).

>

> Also those changes would solve the problem with op MC which does not exist on power because of the better and more active ambush desing being more about effects and not mainly pure dmg and for that they finally create the incentive to dodge pure offensive and with that create enough opportunity costs in dogemanagement to limit the op MC ability uses of dodging while stunned and dodging to cover casts, what also adds more counterplay (mind gaming and the better ability to bait dodges from the Mirage for opponents). Either that or stay with only one dodge and play without IH and ambushes on condi because overnerfed.

>

> Otherwise make some constructive suggestions yourself instead only complaining about other ppl posts, while you are too arrogant to waste your own time to make a constructive post yourself.

 

Ok guys, play nice. There's so few of us left, that it makes no sense for us to be fighting amongst ourselves.

[bravan.3876]

> @"ThatOtherAlt.2984" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > Current Condi/Hybrid-Mirage works without using any Mirage specific condi applications, also not the ones from clones. They do not even use IH and they also do not waste time to use their own ambush on axe. The whole condi application comes from core skills and combos (shatters, clone normal autoattacks and weapons, except of axe 2 and 3 ofc what could also be replaced by a core weapon like scepter). Means there is absolutely no problem to just remove most of the condi dmg from ambush skills (clones and mesmers ambushes). Ofc not only removing most of the condi dmg from ambushes BUT give it more effect/ utility purpose INSTEAD to create the need and incentive to dodge pure offensive to apply effects like immob or daze well timed to actively outplay opponents or to apply boon/debuff effects like might/vuln to prepare a burst shatter combo is the way to go here.

> > >

> > > God will you kitten off with this nonsense? Mesmer has subpar damage and condition damage. Mirage is about specializing into a more evasive condition skirmisher that gives it competitive condition damage in PvE and PvP. Your suggestions would not only completely gut condition mirage not just in PvP but also permanently remove mesmer as a viable DPS on the fighters where it's still strong to take a condition mirage.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > No, it will not cut current Condimirage builds. As said current Condimirage builds do not even use any Mirage specific condiapplication. So stop crying about losing something that doesn't even get used atm because the one dodge change nerfed it into uselessness. I guess you are too afraid you can't be carried by passive condi playstyle anymore to see that current Condimirage doesn't even use ambushes or IH clones to apply condi dmg. Start using brain pls, ty. The above suggestions make IH usable AGAIN, also for condi builds (what it currently isn't with only one dodge) and it makes using condi ambushes (from Mesmer itself and clones) worth using AGAIN because of the utility condis they would get instead and will either boost condidmg or make hitting condi skills easier (immob for scepter ambushes for example). YOU GET A SECOND DODGE AND UTILITY CONDIS INSTEAD, THAT IS A VERY GOOD DEAL. At least when you are not afraid of adding some skill ceiling to IH Condimirage (what is probably your problem rofl).

> >

> > Also those changes would solve the problem with op MC which does not exist on power because of the better and more active ambush desing being more about effects and not mainly pure dmg and for that they finally create the incentive to dodge pure offensive and with that create enough opportunity costs in dogemanagement to limit the op MC ability uses of dodging while stunned and dodging to cover casts, what also adds more counterplay (mind gaming and the better ability to bait dodges from the Mirage for opponents). Either that or stay with only one dodge and play without IH and ambushes on condi because overnerfed.

> >

> > Otherwise make some constructive suggestions yourself instead only complaining about other ppl posts, while you are too arrogant to waste your own time to make a constructive post yourself.

>

> Ok guys, play nice. There's so few of us left, that it makes no sense for us to be fighting amongst ourselves.

 

A new account ArlAlt? I see you support the game in your own way! xD

[ThatOtherAlt.2984]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"ThatOtherAlt.2984" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > Current Condi/Hybrid-Mirage works without using any Mirage specific condi applications, also not the ones from clones. They do not even use IH and they also do not waste time to use their own ambush on axe. The whole condi application comes from core skills and combos (shatters, clone normal autoattacks and weapons, except of axe 2 and 3 ofc what could also be replaced by a core weapon like scepter). Means there is absolutely no problem to just remove most of the condi dmg from ambush skills (clones and mesmers ambushes). Ofc not only removing most of the condi dmg from ambushes BUT give it more effect/ utility purpose INSTEAD to create the need and incentive to dodge pure offensive to apply effects like immob or daze well timed to actively outplay opponents or to apply boon/debuff effects like might/vuln to prepare a burst shatter combo is the way to go here.

> > > >

> > > > God will you kitten off with this nonsense? Mesmer has subpar damage and condition damage. Mirage is about specializing into a more evasive condition skirmisher that gives it competitive condition damage in PvE and PvP. Your suggestions would not only completely gut condition mirage not just in PvP but also permanently remove mesmer as a viable DPS on the fighters where it's still strong to take a condition mirage.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > No, it will not cut current Condimirage builds. As said current Condimirage builds do not even use any Mirage specific condiapplication. So stop crying about losing something that doesn't even get used atm because the one dodge change nerfed it into uselessness. I guess you are too afraid you can't be carried by passive condi playstyle anymore to see that current Condimirage doesn't even use ambushes or IH clones to apply condi dmg. Start using brain pls, ty. The above suggestions make IH usable AGAIN, also for condi builds (what it currently isn't with only one dodge) and it makes using condi ambushes (from Mesmer itself and clones) worth using AGAIN because of the utility condis they would get instead and will either boost condidmg or make hitting condi skills easier (immob for scepter ambushes for example). YOU GET A SECOND DODGE AND UTILITY CONDIS INSTEAD, THAT IS A VERY GOOD DEAL. At least when you are not afraid of adding some skill ceiling to IH Condimirage (what is probably your problem rofl).

> > >

> > > Also those changes would solve the problem with op MC which does not exist on power because of the better and more active ambush desing being more about effects and not mainly pure dmg and for that they finally create the incentive to dodge pure offensive and with that create enough opportunity costs in dogemanagement to limit the op MC ability uses of dodging while stunned and dodging to cover casts, what also adds more counterplay (mind gaming and the better ability to bait dodges from the Mirage for opponents). Either that or stay with only one dodge and play without IH and ambushes on condi because overnerfed.

> > >

> > > Otherwise make some constructive suggestions yourself instead only complaining about other ppl posts, while you are too arrogant to waste your own time to make a constructive post yourself.

> >

> > Ok guys, play nice. There's so few of us left, that it makes no sense for us to be fighting amongst ourselves.

>

> A new account ArlAlt? I see you support the game in your own way! xD

 

You'd be incorrect, I found a loophole so this is June :wink:

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > Current Condi/Hybrid-Mirage works without using any Mirage specific condi applications, also not the ones from clones. They do not even use IH and they also do not waste time to use their own ambush on axe. The whole condi application comes from core skills and combos (shatters, clone normal autoattacks and weapons, except of axe 2 and 3 ofc what could also be replaced by a core weapon like scepter). Means there is absolutely no problem to just remove most of the condi dmg from ambush skills (clones and mesmers ambushes). Ofc not only removing most of the condi dmg from ambushes BUT give it more effect/ utility purpose INSTEAD to create the need and incentive to dodge pure offensive to apply effects like immob or daze well timed to actively outplay opponents or to apply boon/debuff effects like might/vuln to prepare a burst shatter combo is the way to go here.

> >

> > God will you kitten off with this nonsense? Mesmer has subpar damage and condition damage. Mirage is about specializing into a more evasive condition skirmisher that gives it competitive condition damage in PvE and PvP. Your suggestions would not only completely gut condition mirage not just in PvP but also permanently remove mesmer as a viable DPS on the fighters where it's still strong to take a condition mirage.

> >

> >

> >

>

> No, it will not cut current Condimirage builds. As said current Condimirage builds do not even use any Mirage specific condiapplication. So stop crying about losing something that doesn't even get used atm because the one dodge change nerfed it into uselessness. I guess you are too afraid you can't be carried by passive condi playstyle anymore to see that current Condimirage doesn't even use ambushes or IH clones to apply condi dmg. Start using brain pls, ty. The above suggestions make IH usable AGAIN, also for condi builds (what it currently isn't with only one dodge) and it makes using condi ambushes (from Mesmer itself and clones) worth using AGAIN because of the utility condis they would get instead and will either boost condidmg or make hitting condi skills easier (immob for scepter ambushes for example). YOU GET A SECOND DODGE AND UTILITY CONDIS INSTEAD, THAT IS A VERY GOOD DEAL. At least when you are not afraid of adding some skill ceiling to IH Condimirage (what is probably your problem rofl).

>

> Also those changes would solve the problem with op MC which does not exist on power, because of the better and more active ambush desing being more about effects and not mainly only pure dmg and for that they finally create the incentive to dodge pure offensive and with that create enough opportunity costs in dogemanagement to limit the op MC ability uses of dodging while stunned and dodging to cover casts, what also adds more counterplay (mind gaming and the better ability to bait dodges from the Mirage for opponents). Either that or stay with only one dodge and play without IH and without condi ambushes on condi because overnerfed.

>

> Otherwise make some constructive suggestions yourself instead only complaining about other ppl posts, while you are too arrogant to waste your own time to make a constructive post yourself.

 

Your suggestions not only prevent cmirage from getting competitive damage levels out of weapon skills in PvP it would also literally destroy condi mirage in PvE as well because of your stupid"condi weapons shouldn't do condi damage" nonsense philosophy.

[XenesisII.1540]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> Balance changes i would do **based on giving Mirage 2 dodges back** are:

>

> 1. The direct dmg from the Mesmers own gs ambush should be reduced and the might/vuln stacks should be reduced a very little bit too (less than the direct dmg and not that much, that offensive dodging gets worthless). Only if it turns out that it is NEEDED

> 2. Illusionary ambush, actually the whole retargeting mechanic (means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore, same for IA) should be deleted completely actually.

> 3. Signet of Illusion should not include the reset of f4 anymore, not only because of Mirage (what clearly has the best synergy to it) but because it is in general too strong, also on core, to have an utility literally half the cd of an complete invuln skill. It should have excluded f4 since game release. It can get a little cd decrease (5-10s less cd) and a little bit shorter casttime as compensation.

> 4. Condi ambushes should get reworked to not add remarkable condi dmg anymore instead should be more about utility effects the player needs to time well and different from pure defensive dodges to get enough reward out of them. (My suggestions for condi ambush rework see below). A Mirage not timing ambush rewards (from his own but also clone ambushes with IH) for active and tactical outplays well, should have less impact than a core Mesmer, that counts for power and condi style.

> 5. Normal clone autoattacks should lose all condi dmg (except for one pseudo hit like on power weapons). If needed you can move some of the lost condi dmg back to shatters again.

> 6. IH should be considered to be a minor trait, a Mirage without IH feels like a core on steroids, with only some passive mistake cover and a too strong instant dodge added but barely any different gameplay style. Without IH there is also barely any skill ceiling added to the spec, which would balance out the strong features the spec has from MC. Major GM traits should be reworked based on IH being baseline (see below).

> 7. Mantra of Pain should be reworked to a non dmg Mantra (means rly zero dmg). The best way would be to turn it into a boon remove or other utility Mantra instead the selfbuff for oneshots nature it still has. The face your target requirement from Mantras can be deleted after that (ofc Mantras still should not hit when obstructed).

> 8. PU only gives one second additional stealth when traited, for that the boon duration gets increased. Random Aegis proc gets deleted, instead the Mesmer gets a thoughness bonus (or 30-40% dmg reduction buff) for 1-2 seconds after dropping out of stealth.

> 9. Sword ambush could lose the clone generation on the Mesmers own ambush. It is always a problem when Mesmers don't have to decide between clone generation and pure dmg traits like SC anymore and just can have both. Also the Inspiration signet invuln-ambush-clone spam build would get less obnoxious.

 

How about you stick to changing mirage skills/traits to get back the dodge instead of involving core stuff, so you don't screw over core builds even more, thanks.

[Daishi.6027]

I’mma copypasta myself

 

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> Mostly focusing on PvP Mirage but I included a few core in here too. I primarily want Power Mirage viable, but without letting condi mirage get to strong:

>

> -Add back the second evade.

>

> -New Mirage Trade off: Mirage cannot create clones via utility skills. Any skill that normally does functions like it normally would just minus the clone eg. Decoy will stealth, Mirror images will drop target, etc. However, it cannot innately create a clone. (they can however create phantasms which function like normal, and "Self Deception" still works with deception skills.) In the case of signet of illusions the passive will never proc, but the active will function as it should.

>

> -Infinite horizion effect is now apart of "Mirage Cloak". Clone Ambushes now **only occur when YOU ambush,** Infinite Horizion trait reworked to something else.

> (Maybe: untrained "ambushes" serve a utility function and are severely limited, then slotting the new trait restores to the power we have now.)

>

> -**If needed even after forcing mesmer to actively commit to an ambush:** Rework Scepter/axe/staff ambushes in sPvP to disabling condis and not damaging ones.

>

> -**Completely remove Mirage mirrors**, and rework mirror summons to proc some form of flat endurance regen.

>

> -Dune Cloak no longer gains a junky copy. It flat out STEALS the boon and all it's stacks or duration. **OR** is now unblockable.

>

> -Jaunt: No longer applies confusion. Recharge reduced to 20 seconds from 30 seconds. (PvP only)

>

> -Illusionary Wave (GS5) has is changed to either a reliable stealth tool (that you need to land as an attack) on par with "Hunters Shot".

> **OR** is a Block+Counter attack akin to "Counterattack" to specify that is NOT a simple riposte.

>

> -Phantasmal Berserker: casting skill no longer throws the sword, now that spinning animation knocks back enemies in a 180 radius around you.

>

> -Phase Retreat (Staff2) is now a ground targeted skill. (Not only does this serve as a buff and make it more user friendly for beginners, and reduces that gap between mesmer and thief a little, but means it still works when your "about face" system is bugged)

>

> -Critical Infusion in PvP is back to 5 seconds like in PvE. (Nomads endurance remains nerfed)

>

> -Signet of illusions Only Restores: Mind Wrack, Cry of Frustration, and Diversion in sPvP.

>

> Anything I mentioned as a PvP exclusive or is obviously in relation to a PvP version can also translate over to WvW.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"bravan.3876" bravan bravan bravan....

Ill give you tip, take a step back, a breather in and out.

then look at all the stuff you just wrote.

You srsl, non ironically, want to introduce 9 skill deleting nerfs across mirage, and in turn give it its dodge. I want you to just mull this over for a sec.

And no, mirage DOES use their ambushes for damage, be it sword for 1k dmg and extra clone or axe for ~2,5k dmg. they are not amazing but they are there for chip damage.

Mesmers shatter hit plenty enough as it is, if anything mesmer needs more damage in itself, if you remove ambushes then mesmer instantly becomes unplayable in every aspect, any build can just kill the clones ( I actually fought holo that ignored me and killed my clones/phantasms, all of them die to 1 attack, you dont get to use ANY shatters. selft deception doesnt work if you dont get clones, you dont get clones when they kill your phantasms with basic attack and the ONLY way to get clone to shatter is sword 3, no other way works )