Jump to content
  • Sign Up

[Doc] Mesmer changes suggestions for CmC


dubidubidubidu.5308

Recommended Posts

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > No go look at how jaunt works as a ground target leap finisher, it would become like that. You and I both know it.

>

> Technically, the issue you're describing doesn't come from being a ground targetted leap finisher.

>

> Since, Revenant's Call to Anguish, Daredevil's Vault and Engineer's Jump Shot are all ground targeted leap finishers that work when used either inside of or landing into a combo field.

>

> The particular issue with Jaunt and what would be the issue with a ground targeted Phase Retreat, is that they're Teleports. So the game doesn't always factor in their starting position.

>

> That said, personally, I wouldn't want a ground targetted **Phase Retreat because ground targets in this game are janky af. Not activating when I click them on the ground multiple times, or coming up with that bs "No valid path" kitten (Especially when they're teleports..** Meanwhile, during Long Live the Lich when you've got Blish's arm the game has 0 problem teleporting wherever the heck you want to go. Teleport across gaps, teleport onto the roof of a building, teleport past a bunch of rocks etc. Not a single issue of "No valid path")

>

>

 

Thank you for agreeing with me. Its a common complaint with ground targeting. Im not sure why Dashi is trolling so hard about it and trying to deny the obvious. Its a little scarry.

 

Yes that is also what I was saying, ground target is clunky, it takes longer, some areas it doesnt even work when you lay the ring (and get a green icon) some areas its because of slopes or two surfaces, in Gladiator Arena it did it over the new little "brick" ringed things they added to the map, they FINALLY fixed that, but things like that are all over the game. Some areas you can blink up to ledges some areas you cannot.

 

The biggest difference to me is that phase retreat will trigger in all of those places BECAUSE its normal hit 2 key skill. So you hit 2 key and even if the area is too confined the clone still pops and the leap finisher triggers. If it was ground target that wouldnt happen in many places.

 

In other words, off hand I see 2 major drawbacks to making staff 2 ground target that are obvious. In fact, you too seem to compain about the same thing and I would think most anyone else would too. Those issues are in no specific order: 1) ground target often fails and is for darn sure allot less reliable than just hitting two key. 2) ground targeting is slower as you also point out (yes less reliable too)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 349
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

The combo field does seem to trigger when leaping outside the field, I could swear it didnt off jaunt, I guess with jaunt its more a matter of the limited distance so Im usually hitting the field anyway. However, that still doesnt change that phase retreat would be much slower and less reliable and therefore, bad shit skill if it was ground target.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> The combo field does seem to trigger when leaping outside the field, I could swear it didnt off jaunt, I guess with jaunt its more a matter of the limited distance so Im usually hitting the field anyway. However, that still doesnt change that phase retreat would be much slower and less reliable and therefore, bad kitten skill if it was ground target.

 

Defense should **never** be ground target. Period.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > The combo field does seem to trigger when leaping outside the field, I could swear it didnt off jaunt, I guess with jaunt its more a matter of the limited distance so Im usually hitting the field anyway. However, that still doesnt change that phase retreat would be much slower and less reliable and therefore, bad kitten skill if it was ground target.

>

> Defense should ***never*** be ground target. Period.

 

right, because it would suck to die due to ground target fails, lack of speed, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > > > > I’mma copypasta myself

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > > > > > Mostly focusing on PvP Mirage but I included a few core in here too. I primarily want Power Mirage viable, but without letting condi mirage get to strong:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > -Add back the second evade.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > -New Mirage Trade off: Mirage cannot create clones via utility skills. Any skill that normally does functions like it normally would just minus the clone eg. Decoy will stealth, Mirror images will drop target, etc. However, it cannot innately create a clone. (they can however create phantasms which function like normal, and "Self Deception" still works with deception skills.) In the case of signet of illusions the passive will never proc, but the active will function as it should.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > -Infinite horizion effect is now apart of "Mirage Cloak". Clone Ambushes now **only occur when YOU ambush,** Infinite Horizion trait reworked to something else.

> > > > > > > > > (Maybe: untrained "ambushes" serve a utility function and are severely limited, then slotting the new trait restores to the power we have now.)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > -**If needed even after forcing mesmer to actively commit to an ambush:** Rework Scepter/axe/staff ambushes in sPvP to disabling condis and not damaging ones.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > -**Completely remove Mirage mirrors**, and rework mirror summons to proc some form of flat endurance regen.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > -Dune Cloak no longer gains a junky copy. It flat out STEALS the boon and all it's stacks or duration. **OR** is now unblockable.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > -Jaunt: No longer applies confusion. Recharge reduced to 20 seconds from 30 seconds. (PvP only)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > -Illusionary Wave (GS5) has is changed to either a reliable stealth tool (that you need to land as an attack) on par with "Hunters Shot".

> > > > > > > > > **OR** is a Block+Counter attack akin to "Counterattack" to specify that is NOT a simple riposte.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > -Phantasmal Berserker: casting skill no longer throws the sword, now that spinning animation knocks back enemies in a 180 radius around you.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > -Phase Retreat (Staff2) is now a ground targeted skill. (Not only does this serve as a buff and make it more user friendly for beginners, and reduces that gap between mesmer and thief a little, but means it still works when your "about face" system is bugged)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > -Critical Infusion in PvP is back to 5 seconds like in PvE. (Nomads endurance remains nerfed)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > -Signet of illusions Only Restores: Mind Wrack, Cry of Frustration, and Diversion in sPvP.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Anything I mentioned as a PvP exclusive or is obviously in relation to a PvP version can also translate over to WvW.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > **This sounds top to bottom horrible trash. It would make staff total garbage for core, chrono and mirage alike.** This sounds ALLOT like what you want is to destroy condi builds and enhance power builds for mirage even though Mirage axe IS a Condi weapon and the spec has always leaned on condi. THe fact that power mirage worked as well as it did/does was Never actually intended. It was allowed to stay powerful as long as it did to give the "new" espec Mirage a play option for power cause at the time like EVERY Mesmer was running power.. Sorry I just really dont see most of this as even being constructive,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Clearly your intention is to put the final death nail in all Mesmer (even core) condi builds while enhancing power mirage (not core) which seems like the worst possible direction things could go. Mirage wouldn't even make sense anymore in that ITS A CONDI ESPEC ALWAYS WAS.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Note: if you doubt that Mirage was ALWAYS intended to be condi you need only look at the Mirage helm and Axe BOTH have condi stats, the closest thing to power on it is grieving. Nuff said, Mirage IS SUPPOSED TO BE CONDI CAN WE JUST GET PAST THAT FACT AND MOVE FORWARD!?!?!?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Not sure why you decided you hate mesmer so much you want to keep reducing it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Please try looking at my suggestions and others. They would potencially balance Mirage, while not killing core and allowing both condi and power to actually function and to allow things to be balanced as needed. You suggestions would only make power the only option for playing mesmer across the board which is no solution to anything. The only good suggestion you had was give back the other dodge.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Are you going to actually support your claim? Particularly there to the bold?- your literal opening statment. The only thing I suggested for staff was a different kind of control for phase retreat, that is just as effective with how it functions now. The only difference is not having to use about face to go a specific direction. (Which you can't even do when it bugs)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Mesmers have leaned on condi pretty much ever since Chrono nerfs hit alacrity and quickness (except that "danger time" one shot build that didn't last long), with the only exception being core builds that stack stealth to be a worse thief. So the idea that Mirage has to be based on it's weapon is anecdotal. Thief was always power but now it has a thriving condi build, is that also unintended? You make it sound as if both can't exist.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Regarding Mirage, we're only in the current situation BECAUSE of condi. Granted it's A-net's fault in not properly nerfing the condi **application**, and only nerfing stack numbers, or survivability which is what got us here; but as it is now condi CAN thrive, if under-performing to the meta. Frankly though, all it really needs is it's 2nd evade back. (Which I find it hilarious since your suggestion is to buff the application... Which was the balance problem in the first place.)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > -Removing clone generation on utilities only matters for signet of Illusions, and people only hard gravitated towards it to supplement after the survivability and portal nerfs set in. Frankly I'd prefer PvP Mirage as a WHOLE to thrive without needing to depend on it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > -For ambushes if you actually read my post, I claimed that all that was needed was to force the mesmer to commit to the ambush themselves, instead of just letting the clones do it with every evade. This is because part of the balance complaint was the mirage going full defensive, and the illusions doing a lot of the legwork. Forcing commitment fixes that balance issue. It's also why I specified "IF NEEDED" after such a change, then to change condi application from ambushes in PvP. Which is perfectly sound considering **every other mesmer regardless of damage type** pretty much needs to land shatters to do the majority of damage anyways, and is the reality of Condi Mirage right now. You could argue Mesmer as a whole needs something more, and that's fine I agree, but that has never been a standards upheld and isn't feasible without a complete rework of the core class; and is doubtful it's something in the scope of balance for PvP, and it disrupts PvE's current balance. Now, maybe I should have added that condi related Shatter traits would need to be restored or buffed, but I didn't think it was prudent to put three levels of "If this still doesn't work, then do X", when realistically it should be fine by that point. Right now despite Condi Mirage's fall it's not like it can't do damage, and currently it can only ambush once before mirrors, and what I'm asking for is more on demand evasion giving plenty to thrive, and better access to ambushes; though they require commitment. Noncommittal condi application is a small trade for being able to react to every damage option akin to a thief or a ranger and increases Mesmer's matchup quality on a whole for BOTH power AND condi without going overboard.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What I'd really like an answer for how this hurts Core or Chorno since they go pretty much untouched or buffed by any of these changes except the nerf to signet of illusions, which core doesn't use- and only mattered for (old) CONDI Chrono which thrived till the end of HoT... But Condi is only supposed to be the Mirage spec right? Hmmmm....

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Seems pretty clear on the face, no real need support my claim beyond what I said, but sure.

> > > > >

> > > > > You suggested **Phase Retreat (Staff2) is now a ground targeted skill.** I think that would ruin staff pretty much. Why? Simple: **(a)** on ALLOT of terrain any ground target would fail. **(b)** ground target would probably change how phase retreat interacts with combo fields, as it stands one of the benefits is being able to get a leap finisher combo. It could end up forcing the mesmer to place the field in the location they want to move TO like jaunt and blink, vs phase retreat triggers as we move OUT of the field which allows you to place the field on opponents and phase away to gain a shield and clone. **©** Ground target like blink is slower often much slower than phase retreat BECAUSE of ground targeting that is limited by ones ability to see the mouse cursor in screen spam, the terrain, line of sight, etc. Face it, If it was ground target like jaunt and bilnk it would suck. and ruin one of the only reasons to still use staff. This would basically impact condi build options. Many of your other suggestions either wouldnt harm or would benefit power builds like 1 shot that people still complain about without really adding any ability to make core or chrono more viable.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > A."A lot of terrain any ground target would fail" Is untrue, you cannot use it to go onto "no port zones" regardless. Unless you simply mean that if an individual at one they can't port to it. As it is now if the invisible marker of the skill naturally was pointing to a no go zone, it would fail any ways and put you in a location near by. Were what I suggested to go into effect this can be mitigated by simply targeting the right location.

> > > > B. This does not have to be true, a leap finisher can still be implemented, MH Sword Swap is a leap finisher that warps you to a specific and sometimes in motion target (though not a ground target, it would have to function somewhere on a similar level, since when it fails and you port in spot when trying to warp to somewhere you can't normally blink.) and still receives leap finisher from leaving the area. **There is 0 reason why this cannot be preserved.**

> > > > C. There are a multitude of options for ground target skills, for most people in competitive modes use mouse over for when the button is first pushed, or trigger on release. This is only as slow as the individual is to act. I don't buy that argument other than needing to aim it, which we all do anyways in a just more round about way.

> > > > And Ya the point of my suggestions was to make Power Mirage viable. The buffs would put Core on par with thief, and Chorno were it to be fixed would be more viable with the greatsword changes. By the by, If Chorno is fixed people are going to side node with Condi Chrono not Power Chrono in PvP just saying.

> > > >

> > > > This suggestion was mostly in line to deal with the about face bug, and giving a more solid control over the skill, if everyone cares so much about it that then fine. It's fine how it is (except when about face is broken).

> > > >

> > > > > You suggested **Signet of illusions Only Restores: Mind Wrack, Cry of Frustration, and Diversion in sPvP** I think that would harm core as much as mirage but not power chrono only. Its not needed its a poor suggestion at this point. So many other things actually need attention and you come up with stuff like this.... :s

> > > >

> > > > Core doesn't run it, it did for a very short time, but it has no place on the bar. Core needs Blink, and a mantra (regardless of the season or era we want to cite to) and the last slot is usually another mantra or stealth. So no. This doesn't hurt core- to top it off you are missing the point, my suggestions are to bring in more flat endruance regen instead of mirage mirrors on top of the regular evade back; thus you would no longer need to rely on signet restoring distortion. Also Power Mirage more commonly ran signet of illusions back when Condi Mirage was running Arcane thievery and a stealth option (or interupt during CI) with blink. So I'm not targeting condi alone, it's unhealthy and ultimetly a crutch to poor design, and to supplement for nerfs. The intent of my suggestion is so we can give it up in exchange for better design to allow forthe same play we have now; but also so it can't be compounded and abused.

> > > >

> > > > > You suggest to remove the condi damage from ambushes but not the power damage or utility effects, in other words you want to leave the sword and GS ambush as they are and destroy the possibility for condi mirage or at least to make it as ineffective as you can think of without making it TOO obivious.

> > > >

> > > > Hold on- you misrepresent my argument, that was a contingency only **IF** it over performed after

> > > > 1. Returning the second evade.

> > > > 2. forcing mirage to commit to the ambush themselves before illusions do.

> > > > 3. and Making Infinite Horizons baseline.

> > > > >@"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > >**If needed even after forcing mesmer to actively commit to an ambush:** Rework Scepter/axe/staff ambushes in sPvP to disabling condis and not damaging ones.

> > > > And Yes I did say to keep the utility effects, but that's because around season 9 - 10 when mirage was at the height of it's strength before real massive nerfs, Condi over performed. The utility and damage for power did not and was still effective mostly relying on the shatters to land to do damage; and frankly until the damage nerfs, the power weapon's ambushes were relatively medicore compared to the output of the rest of the cast, and was fully effective for it's utility; yet again it still thrived until the survivability nerfs came. There is no reason why Condi couldn't work in a similar way. Also compromises like Staff maintaining it's damage while the other weapons got altered would have been fine too, there was room for nuance. You forget that the entire crux of the suggestion was **IF** it over performed, and the context of what would and wouldn't have needed to be changed would only be revealed then.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > > You said **"So the idea that Mirage has to be based on it's weapon is anecdotal."** in response to my saying _Mirage_ _was ALWAYS intended to be condi_ No its not really anecdotal, the [https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Mirage](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Mirage) is Condi, toughness, and appy torrment. Hmm no power *ponder* *looks at "Mirage's Axe"* [https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage%27s_Axe](http://https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage%27s_Axe) hmm carrion, rabid and dire as stat options, lets keep looking. [https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage%27s_Veil](http://https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage%27s_Veil)

> > > > > [https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Veilrender](http://https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Veilrender)

> > > > > Hmm same condi only stat options on all the signature Mirage gear. Hmm and lets see what is typically suggested for Mirage for stats for pve? Ohh yea Viper's and in wvw some times Trailblazer's. Yes you can also run power on mirage, no one is trying to say you cannot. What I am saying is Mirage was always intended to be a condi spec. It doesnt mean it cannot work as power, but it sure as heck doesnt make that anecdotal.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > So they picked a gear set. They do that will all the elite specs and they aren't all consistent. Dare Devil got toughness in their rune set, while Soul Beast got Condi and Power when no hybrid SoulBeast exists anywhere on a competitive level in PvP. Also 2/3 of their selectable weapon and gear stats have power+condi as if it's intended to be a hybrid. The meta has never developed to reflect that, and so in reality neither has the class. They are either Power or Condi most being zerker, not hybrid; they may be in PvE, I don't know I don't use Ranger in PvE. But PvP and PvE can have different metas.

> > > > Plus what about Chrono? Condi has been the optimal way to side node on mesmer since Alacrity nerfs, and that gets power stats for it's gear and rune. Meaning yes. All that is anecdotal and doesn't really matter. At least not for PvP.

> > >

> > > No I mean literally, ground target fails to work in many areas that phase retreat still works on, meaning even when the travel dsistance of the skill is short it triggers the skill, but a ground target skill would leave you clicking to no avail or just stuck unable to use the skill ONLY IF IT WAS CHANGED TO GROUND TARGET. Its a simple fact. You know it and I know it, everyone knows it.

> >

> > Cite locations please, because I can get to them all on PvP maps with blink and jaunt.

> >

> > > No go look at how jaunt works as a ground target leap finisher, it would become like that. You and I both know it.

> >

> > Lol "You and I both know it" isn't an argument. We actually don't know that it would, skills can be made to function differently especially when made from the ground up with the intention to make them function differently. Which if we're balancing the game is what I would expect.

> >

> > > You obviously have no interest in adding any positive feedback so Im not going to bother with the rest. I just wish you would go away and leave this thread for people who want to make constructive suggestions. I know that you know enough to realize how full of it you are.

> >

> > "No interest in adding any positive feedback" "Go away, leave for people who want to make constructive suggestions" Because I don't agree with you it's not positive feedback? You sound like the ideologues breaking monuments. You're the one who came at me saying "trash" and "garbage" (as if that's constructive), when it's very clear that you don't want proper healthy "balance" that considers **all the classes and elite specs and what builds are capable of.** From your suggestions it's clear you just want Condi Mesmer buffed to low effort ambush spam, and wont hear otherwise; and it's made abundantly clear with your hasty unwillingness to continue the conversation.

>

> You are mistaken you cannot "get to them" MANY AREAS blink doesnt work, just flat out will not trigger on uneven surfaces in certain parts of wvw, pve and pvp maps, NOT JUST PVP. YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT MAKING CORE CHANGES TO A CORE WEAPON IT WONT ONLY IMPACT PVP OMG. STOP YOU HAVE NO BASIS IN REALITY FOR WHAT YOU ARE SAYING YOU FULL OF IT. JUST TOTALLTY FULL OF IT. OK here is an example, the slope adjcent to SWC on all boderlands maps, other little nooks like that many of them are all over the game, places tht ground target mobility fails. Do you play mesmer or just talk about it? You are either totaly ignorant of reality of you are just a troll making up kitten to be a troll.

 

I love how your only response is double and tripping down on the point I already conceded and then again result to personal attacks when the main point between the two of us is about condi mirage which you still haven't responded to. Also the bug has been on and off for years which is why I even considered it.

 

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> This suggestion was mostly in line to deal with the about face bug, and giving a more solid control over the skill, if everyone cares so much about it that then fine. It's fine how it is (except when about face is broken).

But okay; whatever makes you happy.

 

However, if you're gonna be rude I'll argue it anyways: Yes but outside of PvP it really doesn't matter for the balance and health of the game. If you can say: phase through a wall to skip a boss in a fractal, or get to some area you can't normally in open world it doesn't really matter. From what OTHERS have said, is that it's more fun this way; and that is a very valid claim which I have no response for, I guess I'll go ahead and concede the point twice :^). WvW is a somewhat reasonable criteria, and I admittedly don't WvW much, but we're also talking about a game mode that since release has been cited to not be balanced around the kits of individual players, so losing bit of functionality like that for the sake of the health of the game and utility is a minor loss, and would be even more balanced to remove it if other classes CANNOT reach those same locations at all using similar methods (ports). Also that example is useless I can get up and down that slope without staff easily.

 

I will never agree with the "jank" of a teleport skill, there are locations you can and cannot port to, "no valid path to target" sucks; but to me fighting with it in mind and knowing your environment will ALWAYS be a problem of aptitude. Or is at least thoroughly mitigated by it.

 

Also I don't get this notion of "defense shouldn't be ground targeted" When a lot of defensive skills on a lot of classes in the game are. Even warrior of all classes has whirlwind rush which is both mobility and a proper evade. with a tiny coefficient (per hit but only 1 should ever land), but whatever I'm wrong. Remember devs; no more ground targeted defensive options.

 

@ CMC You should hire Moradorin he knows what to do with mirage to make it viable in pvp again. I super extra pinky promise he wont break the balance. Cuz clearly they are a scholar with infinite horizons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Also Infinite Horizons was never a particularly strong trait for PvP aside from staff where there was an oversight in ensuring the clones had weaker attacks as their condition are 100% the capabilities of the mesmer itself. Infinite Horizon became the defacto choice after a double whammy of Anet completely nuking condi shatters to not even being worth doing anymore and Elusive Mind was nerfed into becoming a massive massive liability. If we were still at pre-megabalance numbers and we got the Elusive Mind rework condi mirage would probably have swapped to running that. Other than staff none of the ambushes did more than boost individual ambush attack damage by 50%.

>

> The main problems with Infinite Horizon when it was meta in terms of health of the game was that clones would ambush even without the mesmer's input, which was an actual toxic interaction of the trait that wouldn't be an issue if they just made it so that clones ambush when the mirage ambushes, not immediately when Mirage gets Mirage Cloak.

>

> Also they should unnerf the staff ambush on the Mirage itself. It should have always followed the reduced duration/stacks of the other ambush skills and when they nerfed it they shouldn't have touched the actual mirage's damage.

 

Well I think you were able to articulate properly, exactly how I felt about The Pre-CI and CI Mirage era.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it seems that we slowly reach the point where everyone who is interested in participating did it. i will try to make a summery for the document this or next weekend. but i would like to have few more concrete suggestions to specific topics from you.

 

maybe few things before that:

 

the first document is planned as only trying to give alternatives to the mechanical horrible changes of mirage and chrono. while the last patch gave ip back to chrono and there wasnt enough time to see how it turns out, i would even say, that we make the document about mirage one dodge alternatives first and waiting for chrono suggestions until we had more time to try it out.

 

i read through all of your posts and a lot of suggestions are about full class reworks (incl core mesmer) or suggestions to weapons/ utility skills or phantams/clones. i am sure, that we will not get a full class rework ever, simply bc the pvp team cannot do such big changes without pve skill team and overall the resources of anet will not be there to do it. also tbh i dont rly like the ideas to make mesmer clone- or phantasmless or give them way more hp. im also not a fan of reworking mirage shatters into something totally different (as suggested make all f skills do only clone command skills to activate ambushes on mirage). i think for the identity of gw2 mesmer there are instant shatters with the normal core nature for all specs needed (but ofc they can be modified in dmg for elites and also can get further requirements which are elite based, like that mw does more dmg on slowed targets for chrono). i think phantams and clones are also basic for the mesmer spec to feel like a mesmer. also tbh i dont rly have that much of a problem to have my clones and phantasm survive so i can do my job, even in teamfights (wvw zergfights are ofc a different story). it barely happens to me that they die without doing what i want them to do before. our illusions sure have pros and cons for us as mesmer player and working around the cons is something makes playing mesmer interesting i think, just as working around the pros gives enemies the ability to counterplay the visual and confusion aspect of the npcs. but that is just my opinion. in the end it doesnt matter bc it will not be possible for anet to make such big class reworks anyway. maybe they create a illusionless elite spec next (i probs will not touch that thing then but i dont need to like every elite spec myself tho).

 

**also i want to keep the documents short and focused on specific subjects. for example staff rework suggestions are for sure worth giving but i will not include it in the first document. still ppl like for ex. @"Terrorhuz.4695" who made a lot of suggestions for core traits and weapon pls do not feel ignored or as if you have wasted your time writing that. i keep that in mind for later documents.**

 

for the first document subject (mirage rework, alternatives for the dodge nerf) there seems to be a big consensus from you guys about making ih baseline for mirage by turning it into a minor. i think too, that mirage should have been created like that right from the start. sadly it wasnt. the problem now is, that when you make ih a minor in current state of ambushes, it will be a huge buff, ppl rly seems to underestimate. also again im not sure, if anet will be able to do such big traitline rework (even tho they did it for engi explosive line tho who knows). so i think this suggestion sure should make it into the document. but we have to give up something for it. like current ambushes (condi and power) need to become weaker as baseline first. then you can create new gm traits to buff aspects of the ambushes or aspects of mc. how much weaker condi and power ambushes of each weapon need to be in the end to make it balanced is then anets job of fine tuning dmg and effect duration numbers. so we dont need to have beef about if the mechanical changes will have too less condi dmg for condi mirage. that is anets job to then fine tune dmg numberes, so that condi- and power mirage have overall enough dmg or utility rewards out of the mirage mechanic.

 

also what i think seems to be key (doesnt matter if ih becomes a minor or not) is to rework condi ambushes more into what we have for power weapons. here i agree to @"bravan.3876" , that creating the need to dodge offensive is important to limit the usage of mc to dodge follow ups during stun or to cover casts while still doing a lot of clone ambush dmg during that. i think making clone ambushes mostly utility focused is a good way. leave the big dmg to shatter combos while mesmers own ambushes add some sustain dmg and dmg supporting utilities (might, temporary boni to condition dmg or duration, vulnerability stacks etc.) to buff shatters/ weapon dmg for both condi and power.

to the question about makes it sense to add utility conditions over dmg conditions to create the need to dodge offensive and to make the whole playstyle more active i have to disagree to @"viquing.8254" , i work active and time my sword ambush and the clones sword ambushes by offensive dodges a lot for different purposes and outplays, just as i need to dodge offensive on gs a lot to buff my dmg on shatter- and weaponsskills otherwise i would not do much (sadly one dodge only ofc limits the ability to dodge offensive way too hard). meanwhile the dircet dmg clone ambushes add by themself simply by clones doing their thing isnt rly high on power (zero on sword, and on gs the mesmers ambush is the strong one, so the mesmer clearly lose a lot of dmg when being stunned and only gs clones casting their ambush when dodging). also ppl like @"mortrialus.3062" seems to underestimate how strong utilites can be, its not always only about pure direct dmg numbers. i would even give up the clone dmg on gs clone ambushes and let them only be there for the vulnerability stacks alone. so adding utility rewards to clones and mesmers ambushes ofc make the mechanics more active and with that also increase the skill need over pure direct dmg ambushes, where you just dodge attacks and be happy that your clones to dmg as a side effect.

 

 

**anyway we need MORE concrete suggestion for what we could change (only mirage traits and ambushes) to get our second dodge back but still limit the usage of the op mc abilities without destroying the mirage ambush mechanic by deleting one dodge. and i would like to have more of these concrete suggestions from you guys bc in this thread lof of sugestions for exaclty that topic arent that concrete. so pls think about how would you rework gm traits to make ih baseline (how would mirage traitline look concrete) and how you would change condi ambushes to give them more need to dodge offensive (what utility condis or defensive effects you would like to see on condi ambushes?). or do you have a complete different idea which seems to be possible to do for anet with limited resources and and with a low effort co-work with the pve skill team that does not need to make ih baseline or can keep condi ambushes as they are now? whatever idea you have to exactly that topic write it down**

 

 

that for the basics we have to start working from.

i will make another post soon where i try to react to more concrete suggestions already were done in this thread to that topic. while combining them with my own suggestions. so we can further discuss different options while hopefully being more focused on the topic of the first document from now on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Jazz.4639"

My mirage suggestion.

1 Fix sword ambush, and axe 3

2 Increase mirage mantle protection from 1,5s to 2s

3 Riddle of sand is just shitty version off EE, MB make it deal weak power dmg on top of confusion, something like 0.25 coof ( CAN crit, I realized that if it couldnt it would be more of a cmes buff and not power, mb even do something sneaky like " this has double the chance to crit" with low coof, to force crit to make the power hit valuable, and noncrit to deal low dmg, making it more of a bonus for power )

4 Nomads endurance -> instead of giving 150 condi during vigor, make it give 100 power and 100 condi. Also make it give 1s vigor per shatter + 0,5s per clone. ( same 1,5s with 0 clones but scales the more clones you shatter )

5 Give mirage 75 endurance

6 remove IH for all I care, its shit now that everything was overnerfed

7 Increase dune cloak aoe, and make it unblockable, and make it trigger in the air....

8 buff staff ambush damage from mesmer by 100% ( back to pre nerfed version ), keep the clone versions nerfed

9 Make mirage retreat cleanse and give superspeed, lose all might and fury when used, you know... to actually retreat

Thats all that comes to mind right now, I will edit them later on when something instersting hops into that empty skull of mine.

10 Increase mesmer autoattack damage, they all universally SUCK, only good one is GS at max range when you go full glass. Buffs across the board to everything, expecially axe, since it even puts you in melee range.

11 -> focus, warden needs more HP as a phantasm, and it also needs to start its skill closer to melee range, otherwise it never hits anything, OR make the skill activate on mesmers position and simply throw axes at enemies that are close, making it more of a block proj utility

12 Buff staff 3 dmg by 100% back to prenerfed value

13 Remove dodge when stunned ( keep dodge while immobed )

14 sand shards -> make the shards converge into the middle of the crystal, right now they despawn too early. I tried to land 6 shards on a golem for 15min and I think its simply not possible, let alone moving player.

15 Buff portal, increase its duration from 30s to 40s, but make it so that every person can take it twice, no more. So if someone portals in and out you know they cant go back in again. Potentially make it last extra 5s for core/chrono as they lack mobility to make proper use off it.

16 make DE clone spawn not activate IH

EDIT

giving " good idea is not very productive unless you explain WHY you think they are there, makes it easier to have a talk about them "

My thoughts behind the changes are to

1 buff traits that are weak and underused.

2 give some of the dodge back

3 make power mirage more viable ( riddle of sand, extra power with vigor, more vigor for survival )

4 revert some of the old stupid nerfs that ( staff ambush and 3 )

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> it seems that we slowly reach the point where everyone who is interested in participating did it. i will try to make a summery for the document this or next weekend. but i would like to have few more concrete suggestions to specific topics from you.

>

> maybe few things before that:

>

> the first document is planned as only trying to give alternatives to the mechanical horrible changes of mirage and chrono. while the last patch gave ip back to chrono and there wasnt enough time to see how it turns out, i would even say, that we make the document about mirage one dodge alternatives first and waiting for chrono suggestions until we had more time to try it out.

>

> i read through all of your posts and a lot of suggestions are about full class reworks (incl core mesmer) or suggestions to weapons/ utility skills or phantams/clones. i am sure, that we will not get a full class rework ever, simply bc the pvp team cannot do such big changes without pve skill team and overall the resources of anet will not be there to do it. also tbh i dont rly like the ideas to make mesmer clone- or phantasmless or give them way more hp. im also not a fan of reworking mirage shatters into something totally different (as suggested make all f skills do only clone command skills to activate ambushes on mirage). i think for the identity of gw2 mesmer there are instant shatters with the normal core nature for all specs needed (but ofc they can be modified in dmg for elites and also can get further requirements which are elite based, like that mw does more dmg on slowed targets for chrono). i think phantams and clones are also basic for the mesmer spec to feel like a mesmer. also tbh i dont rly have that much of a problem to have my clones and phantasm survive so i can do my job, even in teamfights (wvw zergfights are ofc a different story). it barely happens to me that they die without doing what i want them to do before. our illusions sure have pros and cons for us as mesmer player and working around the cons is something makes playing mesmer interesting i think, just as working around the pros gives enemies the ability to counterplay the visual and confusion aspect of the npcs. but that is just my opinion. in the end it doesnt matter bc it will not be possible for anet to make such big class reworks anyway. maybe they create a illusionless elite spec next (i probs will not touch that thing then but i dont need to like every elite spec myself tho).

>

> **also i want to keep the documents short and focused on specific subjects. for example staff rework suggestions are for sure worth giving but i will not include it in the first document. still ppl like for ex. @"Terrorhuz.4695" who made a lot of suggestions for core traits and weapon pls do not feel ignored or as if you have wasted your time writing that. i keep that in mind for later documents.**

>

> for the first document subject (mirage rework, alternatives for the dodge nerf) there seems to be a big consensus from you guys about making ih baseline for mirage by turning it into a minor. i think too, that mirage should have been created like that right from the start. sadly it wasnt. the problem now is, that when you make ih a minor in current state of ambushes, it will be a huge buff, ppl rly seems to underestimate. also again im not sure, if anet will be able to do such big traitline rework (even tho they did it for engi explosive line tho who knows). so i think this suggestion sure should make it into the document. but we have to give up something for it. like current ambushes (condi and power) need to become weaker as baseline first. then you can create new gm traits to buff aspects of the ambushes or aspects of mc. how much weaker condi and power ambushes of each weapon need to be in the end to make it balanced is then anets job of fine tuning dmg and effect duration numbers. so we dont need to have beef about if the mechanical changes will have too less condi dmg for condi mirage. that is anets job to then fine tune dmg numberes, so that condi- and power mirage have overall enough dmg or utility rewards out of the mirage mechanic.

>

> also what i think seems to be key (doesnt matter if ih becomes a minor or not) is to rework condi ambushes more into what we have for power weapons. here i agree to @"bravan.3876" , that creating the need to dodge offensive is important to limit the usage of mc to dodge follow ups during stun or to cover casts while still doing a lot of clone ambush dmg during that. i think making clone ambushes mostly utility focused is a good way. leave the big dmg to shatter combos while mesmers own ambushes add some sustain dmg and dmg supporting utilities (might, temporary boni to condition dmg or duration, vulnerability stacks etc.) to buff shatters/ weapon dmg for both condi and power.

> to the question about makes it sense to add utility conditions over dmg conditions to create the need to dodge offensive and to make the whole playstyle more active i have to disagree to @"viquing.8254" , i work active and time my sword ambush and the clones sword ambushes by offensive dodges a lot for different purposes and outplays, just as i need to dodge offensive on gs a lot to buff my dmg on shatter- and weaponsskills otherwise i would not do much (sadly one dodge only ofc limits the ability to dodge offensive way too hard). meanwhile the dircet dmg clone ambushes add by themself simply by clones doing their thing isnt rly high on power (zero on sword, and on gs the mesmers ambush is the strong one, so the mesmer clearly lose a lot of dmg when being stunned and only gs clones casting their ambush when dodging). also ppl like @"mortrialus.3062" seems to underestimate how strong utilites can be, its not always only about pure direct dmg numbers. i would even give up the clone dmg on gs clone ambushes and let them only be there for the vulnerability stacks alone. so adding utility rewards to clones and mesmers ambushes ofc make the mechanics more active and with that also increase the skill need over pure direct dmg ambushes, where you just dodge attacks and be happy that your clones to dmg as a side effect.

>

>

> **anyway we need MORE concrete suggestion for what we could change (only mirage traits and ambushes) to get our second dodge back but still limit the usage of the op mc abilities without destroying the mirage ambush mechanic by deleting one dodge. and i would like to have more of these concrete suggestions from you guys bc in this thread lof of sugestions for exaclty that topic arent that concrete. so pls think about how would you rework gm traits to make ih baseline (how would mirage traitline look concrete) and how you would change condi ambushes to give them more need to dodge offensive (what utility condis or defensive effects you would like to see on condi ambushes?). or do you have a complete different idea which seems to be possible to do for anet with limited resources and and with a low effort co-work with the pve skill team that does not need to make ih baseline or can keep condi ambushes as they are now? whatever idea you have to exactly that topic write it down**

>

>

> that for the basics we have to start working from.

> i will make another post soon where i try to react to more concrete suggestions already were done in this thread to that topic. while combining them with my own suggestions. so we can further discuss different options while hopefully being more focused on the topic of the first document from now on.

 

You're talking about Bravan, a nonmesmer main who has explicitly said condition mesmer should never be viable and agreeing with him while he puts out his "rework" nonsense in bad faith as a trojan horse under the explicit goal of making condition mesmer and mirage in particular never good.

 

Maybe you should put your head on straight before you @ me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is the possibility with Mirage Shatters to still have instant effect but differentiate from Core and Chrono while also supporting the main unique mechanic of Mirage which is Ambush and Mirage Cloak - I strongly believe these two features should be pushed as the central gameplay of Mirage so that it is not simply "Core+", and let core have its niche. Also there is the possibility the next elite spec with Cantha expansion should be power or cc based, given Chrono is primarily support based and Mirage is primarily condi based (not dismissing the importance of player choice to build in different ways, simply highlighting how the specs are primarily focused. I fully support the need for build variety and allowing players to customise any core or elite spec with whatever damage type or other features they may want). In light of the new Chrono changes to F1, it could be as follows:

 

Eg:

**Core**

F1 - big single hit damage.

F2/F3 - straightforward single hit condi/cc.

F4 - also straightforward potential long duration Invulnerability.

 

**Chrono**

F1 - double hit with reduced damage per hit, playing on the theme of time delay.

F2/F3 - unique time oriented mechanics.

F4 - loses Invulnerability for necro style "second life" and action duplication (needs a lower cooldown in any case).

 

**Mirage**

F1 - splits x% damage on direct hit, and _x% in the form of a damage buff for subsequent ambush attack_ (think eg Leeching sigil or similar style mechanics). Could be displayed as an icon on the buff bar, or maybe some visual effect around the player until the player (not clones) casts an ambush at which point it would be consumed. This would certainly promote Core as the main "big F1 burst", whereas Mirage would have smaller instant burst capacity and better promotion of the unique mechanics.

F2/F3 - could have similar minor thematic tweaks in line with Chrono F2/F3.

F4 - this is controversial, but it could actually be Desert Distortion default (delete and replace the trait with something else) - ie, grant 1s Invulnerability and all clones become Mirage Mirrors. This would probably require either Mirage getting the second dodge back, or having the longer 1s dodge back - such that it has extended on demand avoidance capability but reduced chainability without spatial repositioning, playing on the theme of physical dimensions. This could also benefit from Jaunt going down to 20s charge cooldown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

 

> You're talking about Bravan, a nonmesmer main who has explicitly said condition mesmer should never be viable and agreeing with him while he puts out his "rework" nonsense in bad faith as a trojan horse under the explicit goal of making condition mesmer and mirage in particular never good.

>

> Maybe you should put your head on straight before you @ me.

 

ooof you are a sunshine are you? i will never @ you again, sry for dat, you dont rly seems to be up for constructive discussion anyway. in case you ever will waste your own golden time again for another post in this waste-of-time-thread could you pls consider to do it in a less aggressive and less anti- way and for that in a more respectul and constructive way instead? thx in advance! <3

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still stick to mirage smash in exchange for enhanced ambush and 2 dodges.In addition, mirage should be completely different from the core, and shatter to the core is enough.

I hope you don't have personal prejudice when asking for advice. I suggest that you sort out all the suggestions that are beneficial to the mesmer and discuss with the developers. It's their business whether to adopt it or not. If you have your own ideas for a long time, why do you need to ask other people's opinions?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

>

> > You're talking about Bravan, a nonmesmer main who has explicitly said condition mesmer should never be viable and agreeing with him while he puts out his "rework" nonsense in bad faith as a trojan horse under the explicit goal of making condition mesmer and mirage in particular never good.

> >

> > Maybe you should put your head on straight before you @ me.

>

> ooof you are a sunshine are you? i will never @ you again, sry for dat, you dont rly seems to be up for constructive discussion anyway. in case you ever will waste your own golden time again for another post in this waste-of-time-thread could you pls consider to do it in a less aggressive and less anti- way and for that in a more respectul and constructive way instead? thx in advance! <3

 

I did contribute positively and constructively to your thread. I simply don't appreciate being @ed and talked down to and I doubly baffled the end result of this thread is for you to send Bravan's, who has explicitly said in the PvP forum condition mesmer should never be viable, trojan horse suggestions to the devs as one of the big takeaway from this thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> >

> > > You're talking about Bravan, a nonmesmer main who has explicitly said condition mesmer should never be viable and agreeing with him while he puts out his "rework" nonsense in bad faith as a trojan horse under the explicit goal of making condition mesmer and mirage in particular never good.

> > >

> > > Maybe you should put your head on straight before you @ me.

> >

> > ooof you are a sunshine are you? i will never @ you again, sry for dat, you dont rly seems to be up for constructive discussion anyway. in case you ever will waste your own golden time again for another post in this waste-of-time-thread could you pls consider to do it in a less aggressive and less anti- way and for that in a more respectul and constructive way instead? thx in advance! <3

>

> I did contribute positively and constructively to your thread. I simply don't appreciate being @ed and talked down to and I doubly baffled the end result of this thread is for you to send Bravan's, who has explicitly said in the PvP forum condition mesmer should never be viable, trojan horse suggestions to the devs as one of the big takeaway from this thread.

 

half of your posts are just flames. you even started with calling this whole thread a waste of time tho. and also your last post is pretty aggressive. i @ you not bc of another poster i @ you bc i think (so it is my own opinion) that you underestimate the value of utilities and that you are overly worried about condi mesm doesnt have enough dmg in the end. no one in this thread provided clear dmg numberes, so how much dmg (condi as power) anet then can add to ambushes, shatter or weaponsskills (axe for ex) after the mechanical rework of the mirage traitline/ambushes is alone up to anet and doesnt worth any beef in this thread, no matter with who you have the beef.

 

also notice, that being a mesmer main is not demanded to make suggestions here. i clearly asked in pvp forum too and welcome everyone to give suggestions. i dont care who that person is and what hidden goals he might have. i just check the suggestion in terms of them making sense or not and if they seem doable or not. your beef with bravan doesnt interest nor impact me in any way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"ZeteCommander.4937" said:

> I hope you don't have personal prejudice when asking for advice. I suggest that you sort out all the suggestions that are beneficial to the mesmer and discuss with the developers. It's their business whether to adopt it or not. If you have your own ideas for a long time, why do you need to ask other people's opinions?

 

the goal is brainstroming to get more ideas and get more than the one option/consept i might could provide by myself. the final document should ideality include few in detail worked out consepts how to rework mirage in exchange for getting the second dodge back (and maybe get ih baseline, what seems to be big consensus). i want to keep it as short as possible and for that avoid suggestion like total class reworks anet will not have the resources for anyway (i only added my own opinion to it, in case someone cares). so ofc i will make a summary and that summary will exclude everything i think will not be possible for anet to do anyway. it also will exclude simple buff demands without more concrete worked out consept on how to make that balanced. for example sentences like pls buff staff will not help atm, bc staff is not a one-dodge-mirage specific problem (and for later documents pls add how you would like to buff staff, like concrete ideas not just some low effort inexpressive buff or nerf requests).

ideally i can come up with a summary of consepts from several different ppl the majority of player then can agree to, even tho maybe not each single person reading in this thread will like every consept the same. anet then can chose between these different consepts or at least develop own ideas based on that document.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Jazz.4639" :

No problem we disagree, we are here to discuss.

The problem I have with bravan is, if you follow one of our multipage discussions on this subject, that if we apply all his suggestions (not only thoses here.), even if he does it insidiously step by step we will inevitably end with one unviable monogameplay build.

And the problem I have with you (well it's not really a problem but I suppose it impact your opinion) is that you probably spend most of your time on your rupt build or other shatter burst like (don't hesitate to contradict me if I'm wrong.). In the sense that there is/can be more gameplay.

 

So back in discussion :

- About the utility only ambushes, I'm not against fondamentaly but you go from a mirage supposed to be a dps version of core lock gameplay to a full lock/utility build (= changing the core design of the spec, why not.). However, I highly doubt that in the current situation, a mirage without the dps bonus from ambushes could be viable. Plus considering the fact that it will highly impact PvE.

 

- About the illusions-less aspects : it's not that mesmer are against, it's that we are way too much dependant of them for too much and there isn't alternative. Back in core time, mesmer was defined with 3 main mechanics : clones (on death-traits), phantasms, shatters. And every mesmers in every build used this 3 aspects more or less depending on traits (ofc shatter build used little phantasm and little on death gameplay, ofc on death builds used little shatter and little phantasm gameplay, etc.). Secondary you had other gameplay mechanics around stealth, mantra and glamours. For me, it's bad and not fun when the only option is : shatter or shatter. So I disagree, mesmer was more than just a shatter-things and it would be nice to see some alternatives again.

 

- About the " i work active and time my sword ambush and the clones sword ambushes by offensive dodges a lot for different purposes and outplays", if a lot = pre-rupting low life opponent to prevent healing, pre-rupting a opponent who will be burst thanks to team communication, rupting rez/while rezzing, pre-rupting to proc vuln before a burst. We do all the major uses cases and it can fail from multiple ways. Ofc utilities like vuln, weakness etc are strong, that's actually how current power mirage does his damage btw. Again I'm not against but it's a change from mirage original purpose.

 

Now for my suggestions more detailled and to answer you about mirage cloak &co :

 

- I maintain that condition on clones even being a major change create too much disparities between condi and power build and lead to the worst nerf we ever get since launch. IMO clone shouldn't to damage with their auto should they be condi or power. Always about core, it would be nice to replace one of our multiple dead trait to a glamour trait !

 

- About mirage, I really think that mirage cloak should only proc from mirrors, mirage then get normal dodges and having a bar who fill when shattering illusions ( don't have preferences on the fill requirement), with a F5 button to activate (instantly pop a mirror on you for example.). It will be way less spammy, people will stop whine about perma evade while attacking and trigger it at key time will be more rewarding than proc it from normal evade attacks.

 

- About mirage traits : Dune cloak should have a way better aoe range. Other traits can all have theirs uses depending of the build.

 

 

- About chrono, they choosed to give IP back, we will see how it evolved. During this time if they can do something about conditions taken during CS and shield phantasm who don't pop when opponent evade (contrary to all other phantasms) it should be at last better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"viquing.8254" said:

 

if you have a problem with me doing this, because im mainly a power mes player (i still know and play other builds from time to time simply to know how to beat them) and you are afraid that i will kill condi mes than you could ask the other mesmer coach from the pvp discord to do this stuff with you and come up with a document. as far as i know he is condi mes player. would save a lot of time for me tbh.

 

no one suggested utility only ambushes, just utility only clone!!! ambushes, ofc mesmers own ambushes can and need to have condi dmg in addition to the utility they will get from the rework. how much dmg (condi same as power) is then up to anet to decide and to fine tune based on 2 dodges and maybe based on ih being basetrait. pve is no problem since there the dmg can be increased without impacting mechanics, dmg numbersplits are no problem. also this is just one of the possible consepts, i will add yours with the separeted ambushes from dodges too. im just here to collect ideas and get few consepts together anet can choose from or build up own ideas from it. i try to be as objective as possible. so no one needs to worry that his playstyle will be destroyed. bc i will not even add any concrete dmg reduction or buff suggestions to the document. it is only about mechanical changes to balance out mc. and to give ambushes a more utility focused purpose (while mesmers own ambushes ofc still have dmg in addition) is cleary one possible way. but it is for sure not the only way. that is why we brainstorm and collect several ideas and then make a summary about it.

 

as said i dont care about what problems you guys have with each other, i only check all posts in this thread, no matter who wrote them, and try to collect useful stuff for working out detailed consepts.

 

yes i agree that clones with core autoattack (so not the ambushes) should brought down to the same dmg lvl as we have on powermes. it is a pretty old suggestion i wanted since years. that is one of the very few core changes i would even include in the first document already even tho it is not related to mirage. that missing dmg ofc can then be given back to active skills as suggested (shatters or ambushes or weapons skills). so no dmg nerf just a replacement of where the dmg comes from.

 

bringing phantasm playstyle or clone death trait back has nothing to do with mirage rework to replace the bad one dodge change, so this is not the topic for the first document. but mirage already adds a different playstyle by having ambushes doing dmg too and giving other options to outplay enemies with different utilities on the ambushes. if you want a core mesmer basic design rework in terms of adding old playstyles like phantasm and clone death back, then you can add concrete suggestions for a later document about that. i will add it to a later document, no matter how i think about it. but most likely anet is not able and interested in a total class revamp tho (same as for turning mesmer in general into an illusionless class), so dont be disappointed when it will not happen. more likely is that they just create a new elite spec with different shatters and maybe no illusions you guys then can enjoy, as said i dont mind that, i dont demand to be in love with all future elite specs. and im happy when there will be other stuff/playstyles put in elites for mesmer for ppl with different taste to my taste, as long as it is balanced.

 

tbh im not sure if the dodgeable shield phantasm is a bug, i think its there for some more counterplay bc you can have 2 of them. if the mesmer times the block start right it is nearly impossible to not get hit into the block.

 

to the condis and cs: it is kind of fair in most parts bc all hp condis eat during cs will get reverted too. so i think you mean the issue that condis will still continue to proc after cs ended when applied after cs started, while power skills from enemies are 100% neutralised from cs. so your suggestion is that condi stacks applied after cs started will get remove when cs ends (in addition to the hp reset), do i understand that right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Jazz.4639" :

Wait wait, don't mixt everything. :)

 

I already thank you for the job of condensating data, even if fundamentaly it's supposed to be a dev to do that.

I'm not a pro condi, pro shatter, pro tank or whatever, I just want to have gameplay choices. The phantasms and on death are example of what used to be, it's not actually a suggestion.

Making different ambushes for clones and mesmer in terms of gameplay mean basically double ambushes to balance, looking at how they are struggling balancing currently, I thinks it's unlikely to happen even if it could be good.

 

I have doubt about dodgeable shield phantasm because it's already easy counter by unblocable and blind during the block (mean good luck casting phantasm versus thief for example.).

 

About condi on CS, one of the biggest issue with chrono currently is that when you eat a condi burst during CS, you are dead . Whereas with classic distortion it's not the case. I don't want a full condi clear but the sustain difference between chrono and core/mirage is insane mainly because of this and the output boost CS give is far to compensate this weakness. I don't know what would be the best but it's currently the biggest thing that make chrono hard to perform in the current meta IMO.

 

PS : the problem is you just note all suggestion here even from non-mesmers player who just want nerfs, we will have some problems after. Mean SoIl nerf is totally out of subject for example.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also I've said before the entire philosophy and implementation of trade offs has been fundamentally flawed, and feels scattershot, poorly thought out, and seems like it completely disregards the notion of balance in favor of being able to throw out the buzzword "Trade off" and tick a check off their to do list. I've said before 1000x but the better designed elite specs from a design stand point tend to be very focused in nature in terms of what the spec is supposed to do and augment. Like did anyone anywhere look at Chronomancer losing Illusory Persona and Holosmith losing it's Elite Toolbelts as trade offs and actually think these are equivalent changes and that removing Illusory Persona on Chronomancer would somehow give the class a unique niche with it's own strengths and weaknesses that allows it to succeed when played well and balance them competitively?

 

Here's a visual aid.

 

If Core Mesmer's capabilities look something like this;

 

![](https://i.imgur.com/22ZbD8n.png "")

 

Then Mirage and Chronomancer and really all the elite specs should be doing this to the class's overall capability with varying levels and in varying areas depending on what the elite spec's goal is supposed to be;

 

![](https://i.imgur.com/RX9c3Va.png "")

 

![](https://i.imgur.com/5MMhSQ2.png "")

 

Mirage is supposed to augment mesmer and transform it into a potent, mobile, evasive condition skirmisher. Like 90% of what Mirage grants you access to is all about this. But their supposed trade off was to make Mirage worse at evading than core mesmer. It's similar to Scrapper receiving a vitality nerf and or if they gave Daredevil -50% endurance regeneration or make Druids unable to cast their dedicated healing skill. It just runs so counter to what the elite spec is even supposed to do.

 

A change I've always liked is a -300 vitality penalty to Mirage. It makes leagues more sense than losing an endurance bar, on the dedicated evasion elite spec and unnecessarily gutting profession mechanics in the name of it NEEDING to be different with ZERO regard in terms of actual balance, playability, or fun. Taking Mirage allows you to become significantly more mobile, evasive, and with higher condition pressure but the cost is that you're less durable than a standard mesmer. Clear strengths and weaknesses, actual attention to balance rather than gutting the profession mechanic with absolutely zero regard for the actual balance of the game the way they did with Chronomancer, Mirage, Druid, Scrapper.

 

If you can think of a change to the profession mechanics thats unique, fun, has it's own set of strengths and weaknesses and gives the elite spec an interesting or unfilled niche go for it. I think necro is a good example in that Core Deathshroud is extremely tanky, double so because it's ranged. Reaper has extremely high melee damage but depletes faster and won't last as long as you have to wade into melee range to take advantage of it, and Scourge is an AoE condition augment but it only gets barrier rather than a proper Death Shroud life force pool to tank damage with. But the way Anet has gone about the entire approach to trade offs feels completely haphazard and with literally zero regard for balance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> it seems that we slowly reach the point where everyone who is interested in participating did it. i will try to make a summery for the document this or next weekend. but i would like to have few more concrete suggestions to specific topics from you.

>

> maybe few things before that:

>

> the first document is planned as only trying to give alternatives to the mechanical horrible changes of mirage and chrono. while the last patch gave ip back to chrono and there wasnt enough time to see how it turns out, i would even say, that we make the document about mirage one dodge alternatives first and waiting for chrono suggestions until we had more time to try it out.

>

> i read through all of your posts and a lot of suggestions are about full class reworks (incl core mesmer) or suggestions to weapons/ utility skills or phantams/clones. i am sure, that we will not get a full class rework ever, simply bc the pvp team cannot do such big changes without pve skill team and overall the resources of anet will not be there to do it. also tbh i dont rly like the ideas to make mesmer clone- or phantasmless or give them way more hp. im also not a fan of reworking mirage shatters into something totally different (as suggested make all f skills do only clone command skills to activate ambushes on mirage). i think for the identity of gw2 mesmer there are instant shatters with the normal core nature for all specs needed (but ofc they can be modified in dmg for elites and also can get further requirements which are elite based, like that mw does more dmg on slowed targets for chrono). i think phantams and clones are also basic for the mesmer spec to feel like a mesmer. also tbh i dont rly have that much of a problem to have my clones and phantasm survive so i can do my job, even in teamfights (wvw zergfights are ofc a different story). it barely happens to me that they die without doing what i want them to do before. our illusions sure have pros and cons for us as mesmer player and working around the cons is something makes playing mesmer interesting i think, just as working around the pros gives enemies the ability to counterplay the visual and confusion aspect of the npcs. but that is just my opinion. in the end it doesnt matter bc it will not be possible for anet to make such big class reworks anyway. maybe they create a illusionless elite spec next (i probs will not touch that thing then but i dont need to like every elite spec myself tho).

>

> **also i want to keep the documents short and focused on specific subjects. for example staff rework suggestions are for sure worth giving but i will not include it in the first document. still ppl like for ex. @"Terrorhuz.4695" who made a lot of suggestions for core traits and weapon pls do not feel ignored or as if you have wasted your time writing that. i keep that in mind for later documents.**

>

> for the first document subject (mirage rework, alternatives for the dodge nerf) there seems to be a big consensus from you guys about making ih baseline for mirage by turning it into a minor. i think too, that mirage should have been created like that right from the start. sadly it wasnt. the problem now is, that when you make ih a minor in current state of ambushes, it will be a huge buff, ppl rly seems to underestimate. also again im not sure, if anet will be able to do such big traitline rework (even tho they did it for engi explosive line tho who knows). so i think this suggestion sure should make it into the document. but we have to give up something for it. like current ambushes (condi and power) need to become weaker as baseline first. then you can create new gm traits to buff aspects of the ambushes or aspects of mc. how much weaker condi and power ambushes of each weapon need to be in the end to make it balanced is then anets job of fine tuning dmg and effect duration numbers. so we dont need to have beef about if the mechanical changes will have too less condi dmg for condi mirage. that is anets job to then fine tune dmg numberes, so that condi- and power mirage have overall enough dmg or utility rewards out of the mirage mechanic.

>

> also what i think seems to be key (doesnt matter if ih becomes a minor or not) is to rework condi ambushes more into what we have for power weapons. here i agree to @"bravan.3876" , that creating the need to dodge offensive is important to limit the usage of mc to dodge follow ups during stun or to cover casts while still doing a lot of clone ambush dmg during that. i think making clone ambushes mostly utility focused is a good way. leave the big dmg to shatter combos while mesmers own ambushes add some sustain dmg and dmg supporting utilities (might, temporary boni to condition dmg or duration, vulnerability stacks etc.) to buff shatters/ weapon dmg for both condi and power.

> to the question about makes it sense to add utility conditions over dmg conditions to create the need to dodge offensive and to make the whole playstyle more active i have to disagree to @"viquing.8254" , i work active and time my sword ambush and the clones sword ambushes by offensive dodges a lot for different purposes and outplays, just as i need to dodge offensive on gs a lot to buff my dmg on shatter- and weaponsskills otherwise i would not do much (sadly one dodge only ofc limits the ability to dodge offensive way too hard). meanwhile the dircet dmg clone ambushes add by themself simply by clones doing their thing isnt rly high on power (zero on sword, and on gs the mesmers ambush is the strong one, so the mesmer clearly lose a lot of dmg when being stunned and only gs clones casting their ambush when dodging). also ppl like @"mortrialus.3062" seems to underestimate how strong utilites can be, its not always only about pure direct dmg numbers. i would even give up the clone dmg on gs clone ambushes and let them only be there for the vulnerability stacks alone. so adding utility rewards to clones and mesmers ambushes ofc make the mechanics more active and with that also increase the skill need over pure direct dmg ambushes, where you just dodge attacks and be happy that your clones to dmg as a side effect.

>

>

> **anyway we need MORE concrete suggestion for what we could change (only mirage traits and ambushes) to get our second dodge back but still limit the usage of the op mc abilities without destroying the mirage ambush mechanic by deleting one dodge. and i would like to have more of these concrete suggestions from you guys bc in this thread lof of sugestions for exaclty that topic arent that concrete. so pls think about how would you rework gm traits to make ih baseline (how would mirage traitline look concrete) and how you would change condi ambushes to give them more need to dodge offensive (what utility condis or defensive effects you would like to see on condi ambushes?). or do you have a complete different idea which seems to be possible to do for anet with limited resources and and with a low effort co-work with the pve skill team that does not need to make ih baseline or can keep condi ambushes as they are now? whatever idea you have to exactly that topic write it down**

>

>

> that for the basics we have to start working from.

> i will make another post soon where i try to react to more concrete suggestions already were done in this thread to that topic. while combining them with my own suggestions. so we can further discuss different options while hopefully being more focused on the topic of the first document from now on.

 

While I appreciate the effort, I must say that the way you phrase things here is bound to give cold feet to the people that contributed in good faith.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

we agree, dont worry, more different gameplay option are always better as long as they are equally balanced and i dont demand to like them all myself.

 

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> @"Jazz.4639" :

> Making different ambushes for clones and mesmer in terms of gameplay mean basically double ambushes to balance, looking at how they are struggling balancing currently, I thinks it's unlikely to happen even if it could be good.

 

im not sure but seems you misunderstood, it is already the case that mesmers and clones have different ambushes, bc clones always are supposed to have a weaker version of the mesmers own ambush. like on sword: mesmers ambush does dmg and add a clone on hit. clone sword ambush only do the daze, no dmg, no other clone. so the mechanic is already there that clone ambushes have more utility than dmg purpose and that mirages own ambush is the main part for the dmg aside from the utility effect they have with a bit longer duration than the clones. same with gs even tho here the clones still have a littl ebit additional dmg to make the might they only stack on themself makes somehow sense. but as said i even would give up on that extra clone dmg from gs ambushes when it means getting ih as base and 2 dodges back. so they only would apply vulnerability stacks on targets and nothing else. and having clones ambushes and mesmer ambushes to fine tune by each own makes balancing mirage easier not harder. esp it makes overkill nerfs like the one dodge change needless.

 

tbh i like the way you can counterplay shield block phantasm spawn, so how does the community overall think about that? i can add it to the document if most ppl rly think its a problem. i dislike the goundbased targeting on the shield wall skill more tbh hehe

 

yeah never thought about that issue, we can add this to the document, i think it rly becomes relevant with chrono not having distortion anymore. seems fair to ask that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> While I appreciate the effort, I must say that the way you phrase things here is bound to give cold feet to the people that contributed in good faith.

 

sry im not sure what you mean. all i was saying is, that i want to split balance suggstions into different and for that shorter and more focused on a specific topic documents easier to consume for cmc. i think doing more shorter documents makes more sense than giving him one big document to eat. you are all still free to add core trait and weapon suggestions and as said i keep them in mind for later documents. it will not be a waste of time for you.

 

i also ask for more concrete mechanical suggestions to the mirage topic, bc the goal is to find a few different consepts to change mirage to balance out mc as alternatives to the one dodge nerf. saying make ih baseline ofc is one good suggetsion but it needs to come with some other changes, it needs to be put into a whole consept otherwise it will just be broken (like it doesnt solve any problem of mc, it would be just a straight up buff, ofc it will make balancing ambushes easier after but still first of all its a buff that doesnt sovle any issues from mc). i dont think im asking for too much or do i?

 

@"mortrialus.3062" yes i agree to that basic consept of how elites could be designed. and i also can add your vita penalty suggestion to the document (i would be totally fine with that), its such an easy change anet might like it ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Also I've said before the entire philosophy and implementation of trade offs has been fundamentally flawed, and feels scattershot, poorly thought out, and seems like it completely disregards the notion of balance in favor of being able to throw out the buzzword "Trade off" and tick a check off their to do list. I've said before 1000x but the better designed elite specs from a design stand point tend to be very focused in nature in terms of what the spec is supposed to do and augment.

 

> A change I've always liked is a -300 vitality penalty to Mirage. It makes leagues more sense than losing an endurance bar, on the dedicated evasion elite spec and unnecessarily gutting profession mechanics in the name of it NEEDING to be different with ZERO regard in terms of actual balance, playability, or fun.

 

Personally, I abhor the E-Spec "Tradeoffs" that are simply "This thing is now worse"

 

Especially when it's trying to justify what is essentially just powercreep over Core - Given that at one point e-specs were _supposed_ to be sidegrades, giving alternate ways of playing and build options. While the current result is we simply have powercreep and you just pick an E-Spec because it's better than core, even with some penalty tacked on top.

 

I much prefer the E-Spec implementations that **change the class mechanic** into something similar, but different. Such as the likes of Scourge, Chronomancer, Berserker (Aside from the -300 Toughness penalty and the janky need to run Rage skills) and to a lesser extent Weaver (It uses the same Attunements as core, but in a unique way via dual attunement)

 

Not only does it help create a different feel for the E-Spec, but it helps them not feel like simply powercreep because of just being Core, but with extra stuff on top (For example, Druid is just core Ranger but with Celestial Avatar. Soulbeast is just core Ranger but with Merge. Tempest is just core Elementalist but with Overload. Both Guardian E-Specs are just core Guardian but with better Virtues. Both Engineer E-Specs are just core Engie with better F5 skills. Reaper is just core Necro with better Shroud skills)

 

Since when the class mechanic is being changed, then the "Tradeoff" is inherently, no longer having access to the core mechanic as the trade for getting the new mechanic.

 

As such, my preferred outcome for Mirage, is getting unique shatter skills. Ones that function in a unique way in order to emphasise the way that Mirage should play. Rather than just being core shatters with Mirage's Ambushes slapped on top as an additional mechanic and advantage over Core Mesmer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > While I appreciate the effort, I must say that the way you phrase things here is bound to give cold feet to the people that contributed in good faith.

>

> sry im not sure what you mean. all i was saying is, that i want to split balance suggstions into different and for that shorter and more focused on a specific topic documents easier to consume for cmc. i think doing more shorter documents makes more sense than giving him one big document to eat. you are all still free to add core trait and weapon suggestions and as said i keep them in mind for later documents. it will not be a waste of time for you.

>

> i also ask for more concrete mechanical suggestions to the mirage topic, bc the goal is to find a few different consepts to change mirage to balance out mc as alternatives to the one dodge nerf. saying make ih baseline ofc is one good suggetsion but it needs to come with some other changes, it needs to be put into a whole consept otherwise it will just be broken (like it doesnt solve any problem of mc, it would be just a straight up buff, ofc it will make balancing ambushes easier after but still first of all its a buff that doesnt sovle any issues from mc). i dont think im asking for too much or do i?

>

> @"mortrialus.3062" yes i agree to that basic consept of how elites could be designed. and i also can add your vita penalty suggestion to the document (i would be totally fine with that), its such an easy change anet might like it ;)

 

Thank you. Peace? I apologize for being rude. It's just in the face of stuff like how much mesmers have already discussed ways to change that class that would improve quality of life and balance and consistently been ignored, while Anet goes ahead with changes like removing Chronomancer's Illusory Persona for a year with zero regard for how Chronomancer would survive competitively, let alone how unfun it would be, or removing Mirage's dodge roll and acting like that's equivalent to stuff like Holosmith and Firebrand and the game is better for it, it's just easy to lose any faith or confidence in the balance team at this point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > While I appreciate the effort, I must say that the way you phrase things here is bound to give cold feet to the people that contributed in good faith.

> >

> > sry im not sure what you mean. all i was saying is, that i want to split balance suggstions into different and for that shorter and more focused on a specific topic documents easier to consume for cmc. i think doing more shorter documents makes more sense than giving him one big document to eat. you are all still free to add core trait and weapon suggestions and as said i keep them in mind for later documents. it will not be a waste of time for you.

> >

> > i also ask for more concrete mechanical suggestions to the mirage topic, bc the goal is to find a few different consepts to change mirage to balance out mc as alternatives to the one dodge nerf. saying make ih baseline ofc is one good suggetsion but it needs to come with some other changes, it needs to be put into a whole consept otherwise it will just be broken (like it doesnt solve any problem of mc, it would be just a straight up buff, ofc it will make balancing ambushes easier after but still first of all its a buff that doesnt sovle any issues from mc). i dont think im asking for too much or do i?

> >

> > @"mortrialus.3062" yes i agree to that basic consept of how elites could be designed. and i also can add your vita penalty suggestion to the document (i would be totally fine with that), its such an easy change anet might like it ;)

>

> Thank you. Peace? I apologize for being rude. It's just in the face of stuff like how much mesmers have already discussed ways to change that class that would improve quality of life and balance and consistently been ignored, while Anet goes ahead with changes like removing Chronomancer's Illusory Persona for a year with zero regard for how Chronomancer would survive competitively, let alone how unfun it would be, or removing Mirage's dodge roll and acting like that's equivalent to stuff like Holosmith and Firebrand and the game is better for it, it's just easy to lose any faith or confidence in the balance team at this point.

 

yes for sure peace <3 apologize accepted, dont worry i can understand the general anger about mesmer balance, i feel it myself often enough :smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...