musu.9205 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 the problem with sword ambush in pve is quite simple its not entirely useless like others said . but since its bound to dodge and replaces your AA which are supposed to be your dmg skills in pve . a forced utility skill would never be a good utility skill . and you can't use mirage cloak superspeed with sword ambush . so you basically trade dodge distance +dodge chance + your dmg skill for a gap close utility . even in pvp , the power dmg on sword ambush can get some love . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bart.3687 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 > @Cantatus.4065 said: > > @Veprovina.4876 said: > > > @Levetty.1279 said: > > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > > "Sword ambush - useless" - is a joke statement. > > > > > > It does less damage then an auto attack. > > > > It's a gap closer. You don't use it for damage. > > Not to mention a daze (which can be traited for a chance to stun). Every ability doesn't have to be about damage output... > > > @bart.3687 said: > > > Sword ambush is not useless in PvE at all, not all skills rxist only for damage. If they did we wouldn't have illusionary leap. :wink: > > > > It's called ambush, yet it's more of a utility kind of skill. > > I don't deny Mirage Thrust's usefulness in PvP, but in PvE it's absolutely worthless (but so are other ambushes tbh). It can't be used for damage, it can't be used for breakbars, not even as open world mobility tool since we got mounts. Edit: you said it can be used as a tool to get out of an aoe, but don't you think it's kinda sad that it's its only purpose? > > It absolutely _can_ be used for break bars. With three clones, you're applying 1 second worth of daze (1/4 x 4) and that's something you can easily do 3-4 times in fast succession if you plan for it. It's become one of my primary ways of dealing with break bars in the open world. And if you trait it with Confounding Suggestions, you're tossing another 1 second stun on top of that (perhaps two if the break bar doesn't have to be broken immediately) as well as applying a vulnerability. > > I'd also argue against its uselessness as a gap closer in PvE as I used it regularly for just that reason. It's not rare I'm in an event where there are mobs all over the place and I can't mount up between combat. There are also a lot of events where mobility is key and being able to get in and out of fights is important. Sure, I can use Blink for that, but why sacrifice a utility slot for a 30 second Blink when I can use Mirage Thrust pretty much whenever I need it? > > It's actually one of the most powerful ambushes we have, probably up there with axe's ability to stack tons of confusion. I'm glad that you enjoy it. Maybe it's just my general disliking of sword, I don't know, but I just don't find it impactful enough in PvE, even with Domination. Also, not everybody runs IH, and without it the ambush does very little. (something really has to be done to this trait btw, it makes ambush balancing very difficult) But yeah, I have to admit it's still the best ambush we have, and it's absolutely great in PvP with rupt builds and as a means of mobility. Doesn't change the fact they could make it better in PvE. We use a dodge to get it, and it's mirage's core mechanic, so it should be strong. > @musu.9205 said: > the problem with sword ambush in pve is quite simple > its not entirely useless like others said . > but since its bound to dodge and replaces your AA which are supposed to be your dmg skills in pve . a forced utility skill would never be a good utility skill . > and you can't use mirage cloak superspeed with sword ambush . so you basically trade dodge distance +dodge chance + your dmg skill for a gap close utility . > even in pvp , the power dmg on sword ambush can get some love . This is kinda what I'm talking about. Mirage Thrust would be in a good spot if it just dealt more damage. That's all I'm asking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Handi.1685 said: > > > > > @Handi.1685 said: > > > Maybe in pvp or wvsw it is a thing but in pve it is useless (note to myself next time i have to write pve ) , as for Sword ambush all the same like the others to me : worthless. > > > > "Covering" skills isn't as important in PvE as it is in PvP, but I wouldn't say it's worthless. Some mobs do have fast-activating CCs that you might miss the tell on, or a CC might have a tell where normally you'd have a choice between dodging out of the skill (thus interrupting whatever you might have been trying to do) or just standing there and taking the CC anyway. Having a cover can be useful in those circumstances. > > Well there is a tiny little problem your phantasmas will do the damage so no matter if you dodge or not, thy will , as long as you you alive , which is hard with mirage and "dodge" system it has And if it's a phantasm summon you're covering? Or a heal? A defensive skill with a casting time, like Phantasmal Defender (which is also a phantasm)? Plus, while phantasms are a lot of your DPS, this doesn't mean that the hard-hitting skills you do have aren't worth covering sometimes. And that's without getting into that dodge build that is able to solo-champions by maintaining a high uptime of Mirage Cloak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levetty.1279 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 Sword thrust being useful in PvE is such an obviously false statement that we can safely discard all your posts as trolls from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veprovina.4876 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @Levetty.1279 said: > Sword thrust being useful in PvE is such an obviously false statement that we can safely discard all your posts as trolls from now on. How bout we discard you as troll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musu.9205 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @Veprovina.4876 said: > > > @Levetty.1279 said: > > Sword thrust being useful in PvE is such an obviously false statement that we can safely discard all your posts as trolls from now on. > > How bout we discard you as troll? he is right tho .since we have mount , mobility out of combat is a moot point . 0.25s daze on single target almost does nothing even we assume we could successfully land that daze to begin with . that left us only clone generation . only slightly useful on a shatter build which is only useful to kill non-vet trash mob in core tyria. and let's not discuss its usage in instance content . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musu.9205 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @draxynnic.3719 said: > > @Handi.1685 said: > > > > > > > @Handi.1685 said: > > > > Maybe in pvp or wvsw it is a thing but in pve it is useless (note to myself next time i have to write pve ) , as for Sword ambush all the same like the others to me : worthless. > > > > > > "Covering" skills isn't as important in PvE as it is in PvP, but I wouldn't say it's worthless. Some mobs do have fast-activating CCs that you might miss the tell on, or a CC might have a tell where normally you'd have a choice between dodging out of the skill (thus interrupting whatever you might have been trying to do) or just standing there and taking the CC anyway. Having a cover can be useful in those circumstances. > > > > Well there is a tiny little problem your phantasmas will do the damage so no matter if you dodge or not, thy will , as long as you you alive , which is hard with mirage and "dodge" system it has > > And if it's a phantasm summon you're covering? Or a heal? A defensive skill with a casting time, like Phantasmal Defender (which is also a phantasm)? > > Plus, while phantasms are a lot of your DPS, this doesn't mean that the hard-hitting skills you do have aren't worth covering sometimes. > > And that's without getting into that dodge build that is able to solo-champions by maintaining a high uptime of Mirage Cloak. every class has gimmick build to work around some open world champion , that's more to do with those mobs design . have you guys seen how many evade and dmg reduce sword /focus weaver could have with good sustain or you can try that evade build to actually solo bounty bosses yourself . give their rng elements , i doubt you will have much success with it .hint : there are many mechanic require you to do dmg at certain time or position which make this doing dmg while dodge thing pointless in pve . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantatus.4065 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @musu.9205 said: > > @Veprovina.4876 said: > > > > > @Levetty.1279 said: > > > Sword thrust being useful in PvE is such an obviously false statement that we can safely discard all your posts as trolls from now on. > > > > How bout we discard you as troll? > > he is right tho .since we have mount , mobility out of combat is a moot point . Mobility while _in_ combat is not a moot point, however. > 0.25s daze on single target almost does nothing even we assume we could successfully land that daze to begin with . The nice thing about mirage is you get a lot of opportunities to apply the daze due to most consistent access to vigor, mirrors providing you with an additional dodge/ambush, and Illusionary Ambush. Based on this, I can land the dazes quite easily. Trait something that interacts with interrupts (like Furious Interruption, Ineptitude, Duelist's Deception, etc.) and you really start to notice how often you can interrupt enemies. And if you use the Domination line, you can stack vulnerability on enemies like there's no tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musu.9205 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @Cantatus.4065 said: > > @musu.9205 said: > > > @Veprovina.4876 said: > > > > > > > @Levetty.1279 said: > > > > Sword thrust being useful in PvE is such an obviously false statement that we can safely discard all your posts as trolls from now on. > > > > > > How bout we discard you as troll? > > > > he is right tho .since we have mount , mobility out of combat is a moot point . > > Mobility while _in_ combat is not a moot point, however. > > > 0.25s daze on single target almost does nothing even we assume we could successfully land that daze to begin with . > > The nice thing about mirage is you get a lot of opportunities to apply the daze due to most consistent access to vigor, mirrors providing you with an additional dodge/ambush, and Illusionary Ambush. Based on this, I can land the dazes quite easily. Trait something that interacts with interrupts (like Furious Interruption, Ineptitude, Duelist's Deception, etc.) and you really start to notice how often you can interrupt enemies. And if you use the Domination line, you can stack vulnerability on enemies like there's no tomorrow. > first , i said it before , if see ,the mobility come with a choice not with your dodge which is usually the only way to avoid damage . forced utility is never good . especially considered that in pve there are many aoe around boss etc , when you dodge you mostly dont want to jump in right away . especially those open world bosses . second . breakbar is a thing . who needs to daze single trash mob in open world pve ? if it's aoe daze maybe its useful to clean a group of trash mobs but right now . not so much . and if you need to summon 3 clone to daze mobs to kill it . maybe just maybe you should check your gear or build .don't run minstrel in open world maybe ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musu.9205 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @Cantatus.4065 said: > > @musu.9205 said: > > > @Veprovina.4876 said: > > > > > > > @Levetty.1279 said: > > > > Sword thrust being useful in PvE is such an obviously false statement that we can safely discard all your posts as trolls from now on. > > > > > > How bout we discard you as troll? > > > > he is right tho .since we have mount , mobility out of combat is a moot point . > > Mobility while _in_ combat is not a moot point, however. > > > 0.25s daze on single target almost does nothing even we assume we could successfully land that daze to begin with . > > The nice thing about mirage is you get a lot of opportunities to apply the daze due to most consistent access to vigor, mirrors providing you with an additional dodge/ambush, and Illusionary Ambush. Based on this, I can land the dazes quite easily. Trait something that interacts with interrupts (like Furious Interruption, Ineptitude, Duelist's Deception, etc.) and you really start to notice how often you can interrupt enemies. And if you use the Domination line, you can stack vulnerability on enemies like there's no tomorrow. > and more importantly why you run a power build and sword with mirage in pve anyway . any trait line would offer more to a power build . but well you can have fun with that while rest of us just leap with raptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantatus.4065 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 You're really drawing a lot of conclusions of how I play based on my few posts. > @musu.9205 said: > > @Cantatus.4065 said: > > > @musu.9205 said: > > > > @Veprovina.4876 said: > > > > > > > > > @Levetty.1279 said: > > > > > Sword thrust being useful in PvE is such an obviously false statement that we can safely discard all your posts as trolls from now on. > > > > > > > > How bout we discard you as troll? > > > > > > he is right tho .since we have mount , mobility out of combat is a moot point . > > > > Mobility while _in_ combat is not a moot point, however. > > > > > 0.25s daze on single target almost does nothing even we assume we could successfully land that daze to begin with . > > > > The nice thing about mirage is you get a lot of opportunities to apply the daze due to most consistent access to vigor, mirrors providing you with an additional dodge/ambush, and Illusionary Ambush. Based on this, I can land the dazes quite easily. Trait something that interacts with interrupts (like Furious Interruption, Ineptitude, Duelist's Deception, etc.) and you really start to notice how often you can interrupt enemies. And if you use the Domination line, you can stack vulnerability on enemies like there's no tomorrow. > > > > first , i said it before , if see ,the mobility come with a choice not with your dodge which is usually the only way to avoid damage . forced utility is never good . especially considered that in pve there are many aoe around boss etc , when you dodge you mostly dont want to jump in right away . especially those open world bosses . > > second . breakbar is a thing . who needs to daze single trash mob in open world pve ? if it's aoe daze maybe its useful to clean a group of trash mobs but right now . not so much . > and if you need to summon 3 clone to daze mobs to kill it . maybe just maybe you should check your gear or build .don't run minstrel in open world maybe ? > My opinion is if you want versatility with the ambushes, more than one weapon is completely viable. Don't want your dodge to cause you to leap? Switch to your axe. I'd prefer if our ambushes felt distinct from each other so they can have different purposes. Jaunt is also really good if you want to avoid an AoE without leaping. But I will say I have no issue running with just sword if I want to change up things. I was doing the SW bosses that way last night and had no problem dodging their AoEs, leaps or not. Also, like I said, mirage thrust is completely viable against breakbars and one of the most effective ways of dealing with them. Oh, and mirage thrust _can_ hit more than one target according to my logs, though I'm not sure how big of an AoE it has. I'd guess similar to the sword's normal range, but I'm not really sure how to test that. > > > > and more importantly > why you run a power build and sword with mirage in pve anyway . any trait line would offer more to a power build . > but well you can have fun with that while rest of us just leap with raptor Hey, when you can start mounting mid-combat, I'll find that just as viable as mirage leap for mobility... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musu.9205 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 > @Cantatus.4065 said: > You're really drawing a lot of conclusions of how I play based on my few posts. > > > @musu.9205 said: > > > @Cantatus.4065 said: > > > > @musu.9205 said: > > > > > @Veprovina.4876 said: > > > > > > > > > > > @Levetty.1279 said: > > > > > > Sword thrust being useful in PvE is such an obviously false statement that we can safely discard all your posts as trolls from now on. > > > > > > > > > > How bout we discard you as troll? > > > > > > > > he is right tho .since we have mount , mobility out of combat is a moot point . > > > > > > Mobility while _in_ combat is not a moot point, however. > > > > > > > 0.25s daze on single target almost does nothing even we assume we could successfully land that daze to begin with . > > > > > > The nice thing about mirage is you get a lot of opportunities to apply the daze due to most consistent access to vigor, mirrors providing you with an additional dodge/ambush, and Illusionary Ambush. Based on this, I can land the dazes quite easily. Trait something that interacts with interrupts (like Furious Interruption, Ineptitude, Duelist's Deception, etc.) and you really start to notice how often you can interrupt enemies. And if you use the Domination line, you can stack vulnerability on enemies like there's no tomorrow. > > > > > > > first , i said it before , if see ,the mobility come with a choice not with your dodge which is usually the only way to avoid damage . forced utility is never good . especially considered that in pve there are many aoe around boss etc , when you dodge you mostly dont want to jump in right away . especially those open world bosses . > > > > second . breakbar is a thing . who needs to daze single trash mob in open world pve ? if it's aoe daze maybe its useful to clean a group of trash mobs but right now . not so much . > > and if you need to summon 3 clone to daze mobs to kill it . maybe just maybe you should check your gear or build .don't run minstrel in open world maybe ? > > > > My opinion is if you want versatility with the ambushes, more than one weapon is completely viable. Don't want your dodge to cause you to leap? Switch to your axe. I'd prefer if our ambushes felt distinct from each other so they can have different purposes. Jaunt is also really good if you want to avoid an AoE without leaping. But I will say I have no issue running with just sword if I want to change up things. I was doing the SW bosses that way last night and had no problem dodging their AoEs, leaps or not. > > Also, like I said, mirage thrust is completely viable against breakbars and one of the most effective ways of dealing with them. Oh, and mirage thrust _can_ hit more than one target according to my logs, though I'm not sure how big of an AoE it has. I'd guess similar to the sword's normal range, but I'm not really sure how to test that. > > > > > > > and more importantly > > why you run a power build and sword with mirage in pve anyway . any trait line would offer more to a power build . > > but well you can have fun with that while rest of us just leap with raptor > > Hey, when you can start mounting mid-combat, I'll find that just as viable as mirage leap for mobility... > you know there is a cd for weapon swap 9s isn't something short . and i already said . you run a power build with mirage is already questionable .beside this not so much useful sword ambush in pve . what you get from mirage spec anyway ? and again stop using an elite to justify a bad skill in pve . if you have to use jaunt to avoid bad situation then whats purpose of your leap as in combat mobility anyway . its like you are saying potato is so good i eat rice anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantatus.4065 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 No, 9 seconds isn't short, but how often do you need to swap weapons? If I need to swap to another weapon to avoid mirage thrust's leap (which doesn't really happen to me much that I can think of), my axe or whatever I'm using for my other set works perfectly well til I swap back. Also, using Jaunt to get out of AoE is justifying nothing. That's one its uses regardless what weapon you're using. 450 range is typically enough to get out of any AoE if I don't have a dodge/evade available. I use it to avoid attacks with any other weapon just as much as I do with sword. and why wouldn't you? I find it lets me worry less about when and how often I use my ambushes, and it refreshes fast enough that I can use it to apply confusion stacks at the same time. Also, I never said I'm running a power build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musu.9205 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 so 9 s with a weapon no condi dmg great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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