Deathly Chill: It is not the problem that should be fixed for Reaper

[Amerikajinn.4635]

Having seen many opinions from fellow Necromancer players regarding Deathly Chill leading up to not just the Expansion but the most recent balance patch, I'd like to get my thoughts on this out there.

 

**Deathly Chill is not the problem with the Power build, and really hasn't been something the power build should have been concerned with since it was changed, or even ever.**

 

Deathly Chill History: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deathly_Chill/history

 

Let's start when it was originally added with the launch of the Reaper specialization:

 

It was a GM trait that caused your chills to deal damage, and had both a power and a Condi modifier. It was the all-round buff that made chill an effective tool for builds that used either kind of damage. It originally had a higher base damage level than later revisions, and also did more or less damage depending on the targets current %HP. This was later changed to the same damage at all times, and the damage was shifted to greater reward condition damage being taken (specifically: Increased the condition damage multiplier by 87%). This was BEFORE the bleeding became the flat damage replacement, it was ready a trait that had a larger focus on Condition Damage. It is likely that it was still taken as it was a dps increase over the Reaper's Onslaught that was available at the time (At this point, it only offered cooldown reduction for Shroud kills if an enemy is killed in shroud and the attack speed; whic is null if you have quickness from an ally).

 

At this point, there were two main issues with Deathly Chill: lack of clarity, and an overlapping issue. Due to Deathly Chill just making your chills deal damage, it was not immediately clear if a Chill on a target was a damaging one, with this being of most importance in PvP where clarity is everything. Furthermore, because of the inherent 5 stack limit of chill any other players that were applying chill but didn't have Deathly Chill equipped would just overwrite your chills, negating your damage entirely. This was a problem for months, with the condition damage multiplier being nerfed presumably to stop this being as big of an issue in PvP; that is, until the balance path of April 19th, 2016.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2016-04-19#Necromancer

 

At this point, there were two large changes made. Firstly, many ways that Reaper could apply chill were shortened or lessened. Soul Spiral went from 11 finishers to 6, many traits had the duration of their chills lowered, and even the duration of the Chill field from Executioner's Scythe was lowered from 6 seconds to 4. Secondly, was the ever "loathed" change to Deathly Chill, which took a condition damage scaling GM trait that has been mistaken as one that was meant for power, and changed it from causing Chills to deal damage and replaced it with an effect the caused Chills to apply bleeds instead.

 

This, is not what destroyed Deathly Chill for power builds, because it was never truly for Power to begin with. It instead saved it for Condi builds, with many of the issues that had previously plagued the skill being removed and replaced with strengths in one fell swoop.

* Over stacking chills was no longer an issue, as at this point bleeds did not have a cap that could be reached easily outside of a world boss. This in turn also meant that combos like Executioner's Scythe into Soul Spiral could now be used to their full extent, which is most likely why they were nerfed at the same time.

* Clarity was no longer compromised, as it was no longer unclear if the chills placed on you were causing you damage or not. Instead, the skill was buffed in this regard because now chill was a debilitating condition that required 2 conditions to be cleansed instead of one.

* It was now even more rewarding to have a build focused on condition damage, and you were rewarded far more for investing in condition duration with bleeds than chills.

 

This doesn't stop there. In light of Necromancer under-performing in the PvE meta, after the changes to Mark of Horror on October 18th 2016 that removed the until then popular Viper Horror build , Deathly Chill was further buffed with a balance split between PvP and PvE to allow for even more damage from bleeds to be gained from Deathly Chill. This leads us to the current day, where the top level Reaper players are defined by their ability to land as many chills as possible, primarily through the Shroud 5-4 combo. This is currently at a point where it CAN be consistently achieved through a play style known as Shroud Dancing (a term of my own creation, where a player dances to the edge of a group and back to ensure they "attune" to their ice field) in a way that embraces to a large extent one of unique aspects of Guild Wars 2 design(in my opinion): Combo Fields. As such, Necromancer is in one of the best places balance-wise for condition builds since the start of the game, and to a certain degree overall. In this regard I really think the balance team are not given enough credit, as given the tools that Necro players can use without significant loss of damage they are capable of being far more survivable than other classes that rely more heavily on healers and other supports.

 

Which brings me to my closing thoughts, how to go ahead with the balance of the profession; by which of course I mean the Power Reaper play style. Based on my views of the class (as well as how the Reaper changed the way it was played), I think I am correct in saying it was never designed with a specific variety of damage in mind. With the Reaper rune-set favoring close proximity for its effect to activate, and shouts + Reaper shroud rewarding getting in your opponents face and sticking to them, Reaper was all about transforming the ranged caster class that was Necromancer into the close-quarters combat machine that is Reaper; and both damage varieties can play a role in this. As such, merely removing the efficacy of Deathly Chill, which was for the most part always going to be about condition damage, to somehow make Condi Scourge more appealing (which is another play-style entirely) is in my opinion not the right move. Nor is simply converting Deathly Chill into a Power themed trait, when there is already room for further improving the appeal of other traits in the Reaper lineup, as well as other trait lines, to make a Power build more applicable in a PvE setting; but I trust that these decisions can be left to the balance team (which are likely to be the safest hands to place them in).

 

Thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts on the subject, and I'd also like the read yours.

 

Regards, Jinn

[TexZero.7910]

Number's wise sure, i'd grant you it's a non-issue.

 

However, thematically and gameplay wise it is. Reaper is supposed to be that hard hitting impending doom, condition damage runs counter to that and really doesn't have a place in it's kit. You can still make reaper the slow manipulating impending doom just as easily by changing deathly chill to something like so. Each strike against a chilled foe does a 2%-5% of foes Missing health as bonus damage (not mitigated by armor).

 

[Amerikajinn.4635]

@TexZero.7910 said:

> Number's wise sure, i'd grant you it's a non-issue.

>

> However, thematically and gameplay wise it is. Reaper is supposed to be that hard hitting impending doom, condition damage runs counter to that and really doesn't have a place in it's kit. You can still make reaper the slow manipulating impending doom just as easily by changing deathly chill to something like so. Each strike against a chilled foe does a 2%-5% of foes Missing health as bonus damage (not mitigated by armor).

>

 

Thematically, and by extension gameplay-wise, I believe it does make sense. From my point of view, beneath each Elite Specialization are three core concepts that unify to form the whole. It is these three concepts that the "rows" of traits are based upon. On the surface, the Reaper is the chilling manifestation of Death, engaging its victims up close and Reaping their souls with its Greatsword or Scythe. The three concepts behind this are being a juggernaut that your foe struggles to take down, which is represented by Augury of Death, Soul Eater and Blighter's Boon, all traits that make it more difficult for your foe to kill you before you kill them. Next is the master of chills, which is not only about changing the way chills are used but also grants benefits from using chills in general. This is represented by Chilling Nova, Chilling Victory and Deathly Chill. Finally is the Reaping of the souls of your opponents, ignoring any weakness and taking advantage of theirs. This is represented by Relentless Pursuit, Decimate Defenses and Reaper's Onslaught. Each of these trait lines shows a different facet of the profession, but also does not necessarily limit you from mixing and matching.

 

As for your proposed replacement, the problem with both a damage over time effect and your strikes against chilled foes do a bit of bonus damage is consistency. By relying on your chills to be a dot effect on their own, you become vulnerable to allies replacing your damage with harmless chills of their own. As for %missing hp damage (which is already going to be problematic when applied to bosses in general) is it would be too powerful, owing to it being applicable to any kind of damaging build too easily (this being a problem with the original Deathly Chill).

 

All-in-all, trying to apply a purely power-based solution for a trait the relies on a condition being applied doesn't fit thematically, especially when it would then compete with another trait that is already a purely power-based option in the form of Reaper's Onslaught's boost to Ferocity.

 

 

[EremiteAngel.9765]

Very well written post OP and I agree a lot with what you are saying.

It would be nice to leave Deathly Chill as an option for condi builds in Reaper mode and boost the other lines instead to help raise the effectiveness of Power Reapers.

I'm kind of sad that our top row sustain line cannot compare to the sustain on other classes and would like to see some strong buffs to it.

I'm kind of sad that our bottom row Reaper's Onslaught doesn't work properly, at least for me, my shroud dash 2 doesn't dash at all many times, just rooted to the spot hitting nothing until the final aoe burst, probably due to my connection not allowing the faster animation to work properly.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

FYI, Deathly Chill never had any Power scaling. It has always been base value+condition damage ratio.

[kKagari.6804]

> @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

> Very well written post OP and I agree a lot with what you are saying.

> It would be nice to leave Deathly Chill as an option for condi builds in Reaper mode and boost the other lines instead to help raise the effectiveness of Power Reapers.

> I'm kind of sad that our top row sustain line cannot compare to the sustain on other classes and would like to see some strong buffs to it.

> I'm kind of sad that our bottom row Reaper's Onslaught doesn't work properly, at least for me, my shroud dash 2 doesn't dash at all many times, just rooted to the spot hitting nothing until the final aoe burst, probably due to my connection not allowing the faster animation to work properly.

 

I think its a targeting, not to do with internet, but i get this frequently too.

[Conncept.7638]

The problem with the power reaper is the same as it is with the vanilla power necro. It's fine, even good, in your average PvE environment, heck I destroy the HoT maps with my reaper better than with several classes and builds I am much better with.

 

But you get into PvP and content that is based around boss fights, you quickly find you have less DPS than everyone else, but that's okay, your DPS is lower because this class is based around attrition fights where you consistently refill your second HP bar and win the long game. Except that unlike in your average PvE, in the above mentioned more competitive environments, nothing dies until the conclusion of the fight, which means nothing is filling that second HP bar, and your DPS is just flat out worse with no justification for it being that way.

[Arzurag.7506]

Turning deathly chill into an unique master-trait, granting damage applied by appliying chill, based of target current health or based on a specific power-condition-value could solve some issues but in general DC is not the main reason why power-reaper is in a bad state.

Of course, it can sound like a heavily biased opinion but I consider the strong state of conditions as the main problem and the way our class can make use of them.

[Zefiris.8297]

I think that deathly chill is the main problem, because it limits design space.

 

Buffs to power reaper tier 1/2 or base necro cannot happen while deathly chill exists, otherwise condi reaper would risk becoming OP.

Condi Reaper already uses greatsword, and condi reaper has very high crit and power values.

 

Deathly chill has to be changed for power reaper or base necromancer to have a chance, unfortunately.

[Lobo.1296]

I would rather see it changed to drop the bleed and instead go to a flat damage power based burst of damage just to keep lines clear that Reaper is The Power choice and boost another trait somewhere so condimancers don't get totally screwed.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

TL; DR.

 

Here's a short version:

 

**Good dev** would slab 15% damage boost on Reaper's Onslaught, giving power necro the solid boost it needs. Few things could be tweaked here and there if needed. but bottom line power reapers get theirs, while condi reapers stay with their defining trait and none gets hurt.

 

**Greedy dev** would kill condi play, consequences be damned to sell the new elite spec as the only viable condi option. Yay for yellow pukes erected from the sand doing our damage for us!

 

You tell me which case we're dealing with here....

 

 

Ps. ever wonder why core necro is not seeing any solid shroud rework and condi or power boosts, only the elite? Yeah, me neither.....

[Dadnir.5038]

> @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

> **Good dev** would slab 15% damage boost on Reaper's Onslaught, giving power necro the solid boost it needs. Few things could be tweaked here and there if needed. but bottom line power reapers get theirs, while condi reapers stay with their defining trait and none gets hurt.

 

A good dev would start by adressing the core issues. Core necromancer's trait are to weak to support anything that would like to go power.

If the dev were to give a 15% increased damage on _reaper onslaught_, it would be "on shroud skills" and then we would just be on the same point as we are today since they nerfed the shroud uptime.

 

[Carighan.6758]

> @Amerikajinn.4635 said:

> All-in-all, trying to apply a purely power-based solution for a trait the relies on a condition being applied doesn't fit thematically, especially when it would then compete with another trait that is already a purely power-based option in the form of Reaper's Onslaught's boost to Ferocity.

 

Though, frankly, I can't imagine the devs are unable to code something akin to this:

 

* When applying a Chill effect, gain an invisible self-buff of the same duration, replacing any old one (if the new duration is longer).

* Enemies who you have hit with a Chill effect, and which are chilled (but independent of whether they have Chill *from you* on them at the time) take X damage each second, individual hits, power based, as long as you also have the self-buff.

 

Yeah it sounds complicated, but in the end it is but a self-buff + a few if-statements. Nothing more.

 

[Lahmia.2193]

Couldn't we just go back to the > @Carighan.6758 said:

> > @Amerikajinn.4635 said:

> > All-in-all, trying to apply a purely power-based solution for a trait the relies on a condition being applied doesn't fit thematically, especially when it would then compete with another trait that is already a purely power-based option in the form of Reaper's Onslaught's boost to Ferocity.

>

> Though, frankly, I can't imagine the devs are unable to code something akin to this:

>

> * When applying a Chill effect, gain an invisible self-buff of the same duration, replacing any old one (if the new duration is longer).

> * Enemies who you have hit with a Chill effect, and which are chilled (but independent of whether they have Chill *from you* on them at the time) take X damage each second, individual hits, power based, as long as you also have the self-buff.

>

> Yeah it sounds complicated, but in the end it is but a self-buff + a few if-statements. Nothing more.

>

Wouldn't they have done that originally to fix DC instead of making it do bleeding instead? That aside, it seems like an over complicated version of "do damage whenever you inflict chill", which would require much less coding.

[Wintermute.5408]

DC is a gimmick. It's clunky, it's unreliable, it originates from unforseen interactions. Just like Lich stacking was before. When we got DC in its current form, it completely barred any possibilities for actually useful buffs to reaper, instead of this broken shit. It should be killed with fire, and reaper damage output re-evaluated and adjusted to not rely on standing in ice fields.

 

Specialisation should not rely on gimmicks to be functional.

[Amerikajinn.4635]

> @Wintermute.5408 said:

> DC is a gimmick. It's clunky, it's unreliable, it originates from unforseen interactions. Just like Lich stacking was before. When we got DC in its current form, it completely barred any possibilities for actually useful buffs to reaper, instead of this broken kitten. It should be killed with fire, and reaper damage output re-evaluated and adjusted to not rely on standing in ice fields.

>

> Specialisation should not rely on gimmicks to be functional.

 

When the Specialization has an entire group of traits based around chills, it can hardly be called a gimmick to have a build based around it. Furthermore, unlike the Lich jagged horror where your damage output was actually placed outside of your control due to the dual nature of relying on the minions and relying on other players to maintain your damage, the whirling in ice fields and utilizing synergy with traits like Chilling Nova and Chilling Darkness is something both entirely controlled by you and measured by the skill with which you position yourself in a fight, both around allied combo fields and within targets to ensure chilling bolts hit.

 

I'd hardly call DC synergizing both with new and original traits an "unforeseen" interaction, especially when changes were made to chill-based skills and traits across the board when DC was changed to cause bleeds. Nor can it be considered a gimmick that is the onyl thing that makes the build functional, when it works in tandem with an established base profession that facilitates a condi build.

 

 

[Wintermute.5408]

> @Amerikajinn.4635 said:

> > @Wintermute.5408 said:

> > DC is a gimmick. It's clunky, it's unreliable, it originates from unforseen interactions. Just like Lich stacking was before. When we got DC in its current form, it completely barred any possibilities for actually useful buffs to reaper, instead of this broken kitten. It should be killed with fire, and reaper damage output re-evaluated and adjusted to not rely on standing in ice fields.

> >

> > Specialisation should not rely on gimmicks to be functional.

>

> When the Specialization has an entire group of traits based around chills, it can hardly be called a gimmick to have a build based around it. Furthermore, unlike the Lich jagged horror where your damage output was actually placed outside of your control due to the dual nature of relying on the minions and relying on other players to maintain your damage, the whirling in ice fields and utilizing synergy with traits like Chilling Nova and Chilling Darkness is something both entirely controlled by you and measured by the skill with which you position yourself in a fight, both around allied combo fields and within targets to ensure chilling bolts hit.

>

> I'd hardly call DC synergizing both with new and original traits an "unforeseen" interaction, especially when changes were made to chill-based skills and traits across the board when DC was changed to cause bleeds. Nor can it be considered a gimmick that is the onyl thing that makes the build functional, when it works in tandem with an established base profession that facilitates a condi build.

>

>

 

"Unforseen" was the part about whirl finishers in ice fields. Or the person who decided it's appropriate way to buff the class was really really high that day.

 

If you track back the history of DC, it was ALWAYS broken in one way or the other. First it was chill itself dealing damage. Then we got initial pathetic amount of bleed. Then amount got increased, and we landed where we are. I can bet it was unforseen, because before that buff whirls weren't even a thing, and DC was picked only because "there's nothing else".

 

DC in its current form is THE reason reapers aren't wanted in raids as DPS spots. Yes, we deal high damage on test dummy. But whenever ice fields get overriden - aka, in absolutely any group - damage drops through the floor. In the end, we end up with high potential damage, preventing any buffs, and garbage realistic damage, preventing class from being useful.

 

Point of all this is, DC is garbage. It should have never existed as it is, and the sooner it gets deleted the better.

[Ara.4569]

In my opinion, Deathly Chill successive changes are symptomatic of an issue GW2 has where for the sake of (poor) balance, design is offered in sacrifice. They should work together but not to the point where a team touches what the other team did.

 

That said, I really hope the Reaper can become the slow fearsome horror movie monster it was designed to be. Slow ? We undoubtedly are. Fearsome ? It remains to be seen.

[Amerikajinn.4635]

> @Wintermute.5408 said:

>

> DC in its current form is THE reason reapers aren't wanted in raids as DPS spots. Yes, we deal high damage on test dummy. But whenever ice fields get overriden - aka, in absolutely any group - damage drops through the floor. In the end, we end up with high potential damage, preventing any buffs, and garbage realistic damage, preventing class from being useful.

>

> Point of all this is, DC is garbage. It should have never existed as it is, and the sooner it gets deleted the better.

 

Anyone that puts in the time to practice can get to the point where they hit chilling bolts from soul spiral with a 90% or more success rate, with the relevant research seen here:

 

You're right, we have high potential damage... with a condi build. Why delete the trait that has served the class best recently, in a form that heavily rewards the individual skill level of the player with a chill combo that players have been performing since Heart of Thorns launched (saying that a prominent way to quickly stack up chill was unforseen is simply untrue, it merely became far more effective when DC was changed to its current form), when instead you could address the other non-competing lack-luster traits like Reaper's Onslaught, or even address the core traits of the profession which do not facilitate a power build to anywhere the same degree as a condi build.

 

Heck, you could even address the fewer % damage modifiers Necro has compared to other classes, or the static playstyle of "get target to 50% hp and then spam GS 2".

 

[Maunzi.3764]

> @Amerikajinn.4635 said:

> > @Wintermute.5408 said:

> >

> > DC in its current form is THE reason reapers aren't wanted in raids as DPS spots. Yes, we deal high damage on test dummy. But whenever ice fields get overriden - aka, in absolutely any group - damage drops through the floor. In the end, we end up with high potential damage, preventing any buffs, and garbage realistic damage, preventing class from being useful.

> >

> > Point of all this is, DC is garbage. It should have never existed as it is, and the sooner it gets deleted the better.

>

> Anyone that puts in the time to practice can get to the point where they hit chilling bolts from soul spiral with a 90% or more success rate, with the relevant research seen here:

>

>

 

I am not sure why this counts as skilled. Moving to the side, hitting 5, then hitting 4 and moving back, is not exactly skillful or exciting. It's what ever half decent reaper does ever since the day the patch hit.

 

And even with this, it has a reason reapers are significantly below every other class when equal skill is involved, including the top reapers. The reason isn't that you're the only reaper that can play properly, the reason is that the design of core necromancer is broken.

[Amerikajinn.4635]

> @Maunzi.3764 said:

> > @Amerikajinn.4635 said:

> > > @Wintermute.5408 said:

> > >

> > > DC in its current form is THE reason reapers aren't wanted in raids as DPS spots. Yes, we deal high damage on test dummy. But whenever ice fields get overriden - aka, in absolutely any group - damage drops through the floor. In the end, we end up with high potential damage, preventing any buffs, and garbage realistic damage, preventing class from being useful.

> > >

> > > Point of all this is, DC is garbage. It should have never existed as it is, and the sooner it gets deleted the better.

> >

> > Anyone that puts in the time to practice can get to the point where they hit chilling bolts from soul spiral with a 90% or more success rate, with the relevant research seen here:

> >

> >

>

> I am not sure why this counts as skilled. Moving to the side, hitting 5, then hitting 4 and moving back, is not exactly skillful or exciting. It's what ever half decent reaper does ever since the day the patch hit.

>

> And even with this, it has a reason reapers are significantly below every other class when equal skill is involved, including the top reapers. The reason isn't that you're the only reaper that can play properly, the reason is that the design of core necromancer is broken.

 

It counts as skilled because it's one thing to do it at the training golem, but it's another matter entirely to do it whilst dealing with mechanics at boss fights (something that applies to every rotation), and large combo fields like Timewarp and overload air that need to be played around to maintain your damage. You can just move a bit to the side but if you don't carefully position to ensure the FIRST field you enter is an ice one you don't use the correct field.

 

Someone that doesn't know this won't even stack inside of a hitbox to ensure projectiles hit, let alone position to attune to the correct field.

 

I also never said I was the only Reaper that knew how to play properly, this isn't exactly new research, and I (and I assume others) have been circulating this information for 3 months now.