Suggestions to the Balance Team towards the PVE

[Coconut.7082]

> @Draco.9480 said:

> > @Rain.7543 said:

> > > @Draco.9480 said:

> > > > @Rain.7543 said:

> > > > Reading some points in your post OP I have to wonder... do we play the same game? What taunt skills? The only instance when CC is used is to break CC bars. Such taunt mechanic doesnt even exist in raids, so you genarally ask the devs to completely rework some of the basic mechanics and how raids function at its core, which alone will require a MASSIVE amount of work. No, thanks. I rather have the small raid and fractals teams focus on getting new content out. Also what bosses are there that would require 2 tanks at the same time and even if they did how is that going to help at all with build diversity, considering the monopoly chronos have on tanking and for good reason? Consider that even if alacrity and quickness gets nerfec, chronos will still be laregely prefered as tanks. They arent just alacrity/quickness bots. They bring much more on the table, as far as utility and team support goes. Are we again playing the same game? Mind also explain to me how you will kill Xera without any healer at all, or any boss at all for that matter?

> > > >

> > > > As far, as Weaver goes 47k dps on golem is a qT benchmark. Outside of the hardcore raiding groups a large percent of the Ele's fail to reach even half that number and thats on golem, let alone in real raid scenario, so Weaver is far from the most prefered dps option at the moment. Quite the opposite - the dps spots now are more devirsed then ever - you can either take guardians, eles, rangers, even necros if you want and you will still be able to clear raids no problems (excluding Sloth and KC, where power burst dps classes are prefered naturally)

> > > >

> > > > You dont really ask for balance, no. From what I've gathered from your post you are asking for complete rework on how raids and fractals function, so you can play your necro. I've seen a lot of people asking for massive changes and balances, so they can play whatever they want in raids. The reality is... that really cant happen in high level challenging content, because no matter what balances Anet do, players will always come up with most effecient team comps, and that will inevitably leave some classes out of the meta. META's arent something unique to Guild wars 2 either, you have those in almost any MMO that ever existed. But also META is not the only way to play, its the way to go if you want to be most efficient in your gameplay, but you can do pretty smooth raid clears with a lot of different raids setups, which arent META.

> > >

> > > Who cares about bad players not adapting to the class. I'm talking about competitive and not casuals! People in my guild hit the benchmark of qT and do way more DPS than they did on Tempest on power favored bosses which are the most bosses in raids and 95% of the fractals. Ya have no idea what ya're talking about when ya tell me I don't have to go META. META=most efficient tactics available. In WoW there's not much of META.

> > > Ya just said ya can clear raids but "(excluding Sloth and KC, where power burst dps classes are prefered naturally) ". so yer argument goes to trashcan. Those bosses are part of the game and ya can't ignore 'em. Can ya do KC mid with 4 Necros? Can ya do Sloth 3 Mushrooms Sloth with DD Power? Can ya do Xera middle with 2 rangers and 2 engineers? Why can't I do perform hardcore tactics with those classes? ya know why? cuz NO BALANCE BETWEEN CLASSES AND BUILDS!

> > > Also about xera I killed Xera middle with any healer. 4 tempest f/a staff, 2 condi druids, 1 minstrel chrono, 1 power chrono and 2 CPS. So don't tell me ya need healers for faceroll content.

> > > Why would the devs actually do a massive load of work when they can design some useless skin in the gemstore and sell it for money. Gemstore is more important than balance and healthy gameplay in both hardcore and casual PvE.

> > > aslo " you can either take guardians, eles, rangers, even necros if you want and you will still be able to clear raids no problems"????????? are ya kidding me? necro prefered over tempest? It was maybe prefered in W4, Matthias and Sabetha yes before the "fix" now it's just completely useless and no one takes it anymore. even qT removed it from benchmark and necro doesn't even exist as valid PvE choice anymore. Power any ranger, thief, warr, mesmer and rev don't exist at all. Even LFG won't take 'em since they're useless and can't perform any significant DPS.

> > > Ya clearly don't know what ya're talking about when ya said necro is prefered over weaver on most bosses. Do yer homework before saying such BS.

> >

> > First of all, go drink some cold water to cool off or something. Did I ever said necro would be prefered in META or even most groups opposed to the more potent dps classes? No, I didnt. I said Guild wars 2 raids arent THAT challenging that you always need to go full META to get a clear. So you can pretty much bring even four necros and still clear MOST bosses, it wont efficient, it wont be as fast, but you can still do it. Most efficient team comps are used for speed clears or low man raids, but not everyone care about that. Hell I've done VG kill with 8 crangers and 2 druids. No quickness, no alacrity, no might and we still killed with 3 minutes left on timer. So clearly the one who doesnt know what he is talking about is you. As for Sloth and KC, those have specific mechanics that just make condi useless, opposed to power burst builds. To make condi more viable option on those Anet will need to entirely rework the bosses mechanics.

> >

> > As for Xera - in your first post you said NO HEALER at all. So here's newsflash for you - Cdruids are still healers and you can perfectly do most bosses (except maybe Deimos, Matt), without any magi druid whatsoever. And why wouldnt you able to do mid Xera with 2 rangers and 2 engi's if they hit dps uptime? Honestly i think you need to loose up a bit, maybe sleep over and come again to see the nonsenses you are typing down. Balance while no perfect, especially with the new specs that just flooded in, is in pretty good place, just like build diversity and the classes you can clear raids with. I just even started seeing revs showing in some groups, which were unthink of before. Balance is a tricky thing to do, and there isnt such a thing, as perfect balance. But right now balance and class/build diversity is much better when we had only 4 tempest perma locked in the dps slots.

>

> then show me xera MIDDLE 2 rangers and 2 engis, sherlock.

 

I don't care much for the rest of the discussion here, just want to know why the hell do you think Xera is not doable in the middle with 2 Engis/2 Rangers?

The sole reason why Power classes are taken on Xera is because of the second phase (and "pre-event" which is faster with Power), Condi classes will actually complete the first phase faster (well, at least before PoF, haven't tried now with Weavers out there) due to more DPS on target.

In fact, the DPS check to do the first phase in the middle is so small, that it can be done even by 8 people.

[Joxer.6024]

> @Niobium.7392 said:

> > @Draco.9480 said:

> > I don't want to hear any kitbag answers like "it's not wow"......

>

> > @Draco.9480 said:

> > and look at the WoW 7.3 benchmark.....

>

> > @Draco.9480 said:

> > I ask myself. how come ALL the DPS SPECS in WOW are good more or less.....

>

> > @Draco.9480 said:

> > some awkward barriers for 2 seconds that no one cares that was stolen from WoW which like at least 5 classes in WoW can grant bubbles and last like way way longer.....

>

> > @Draco.9480 said:

> > with their own unique rotation like in WoW.......

>

>

>

> WOW

>

>

>

>

>

 

That's perfect!! And I will say it, as you have mentioned it so many times, just go back to WOW, seriously mate. You obviously are very very dishearten with GW2 so do yourself and your health and us a favour and just go back.

Yea, I thought tanking in this game would be like WOW, ESO, SWTOR, and all but I was wrong. And having been a main tank for a hardcore guild as well I was kinda bummed. But did I cry and scream and carry on that the Devs must change it or else? NO! I just went with it and its fun as. Yea, the raids need work but they are only barely 2 years in and WOW is what...15? And back in the day WOW had a raid where you had to bring a Mage to tank else you couldn't do it. Don't see many of those fights now as its all become so basic. I could be wrong with new expac as I left when it rolled out but yea, even the greats cave now and then to the general player base. LFR was the worst thing Blizzard ever did for raids yet I see people come on here and cry for the same. Please no.

But I ramble now.....OP, you clearly are a WOW fanboy and that's fine, just don't come here demanding or even suggesting that ANET follow Blizzard.

[Scipion.7548]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> You are effectively complaining that there is no tank role offered to multiple classes. That's because the game was never designed with having classes tank in the first place. Thus comaring this to WoW and complaining is like going to a bank and complaining that you can't buy fruit there. Sure you might get offered some coffee at the bank, but you will never get more than that.

>

 

The analogy isn't correct. Now a trinity has emerged, the bank is now a fruit store but the fruits are unbalanced (only apple, no ananas !).

 

>I'll save you a lot of heartache: you will never see a hard trinity in GW2.

 

I don't want an hard trinity. I totally accepted since the beginning that there is no pure DPS, healers and tanks in this game. I don't want a 100% healer. But hey, there healer stuff, healer weapons (mace/staff for the guard), healer runes, healer utility skills, so ok a 100% healer guy don't exist but a healing oriented guy is reasonable no ?

All I wanted was to be a "healer or def support oriented" guardian, which is permitted by Anet ... When I created my character, the guardian was (and always is) described like that *"Guardians specialize in **protective and defensive** magic. A deep sense of **loyalty to their allies** fuels their passion and power."* Defense, protection, allies, that is a tanky healer right ? Can I play a tanky healer oriented guardian in fractals, raids, etc while stile being competitive (optimal ?) and so accepted by the majority of the players ? If the answer is no, Anet failed for me.

 

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> the "meta" healer (Druid) are preferred because of their unique damage buffs, NOT because they are better tanks and/or healers compared to the other options.

 

I know that Firebrand provides more healing than druid, but in the day of the end, which of them has the healer slot ? Healers are unbalanced, maybe not because of their healing, but they are still extremely unbalanced.

 

I don't want making GW2 a WOW2. I just want to play in all contents the character Anet promised me when I create it. A tanky healer/def support oriented guardian.

 

>FF14 is pretty good in that regard.

 

FF14 is a japanese garbage for teens. Sorry, i cannot.

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

The reason balance is terrible is that they do not listen to the community nor do they bother with a test server, how else do you explain things like Scourge needing a bug to produce 50% of it's damage? Too many closed minds there and this has completely cut them off from their biggest asset, the community in general.

[Ertrak.9506]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> > @SmashGd.1056 said:

> > Nerf the dickens out of chronomancer so other tank models can compete. And stop nerfin scourges utility and support and lower the damage.

>

> Ok, and what are you going to give chronomancer in return?

 

Tbh i think personally invuln share should be changed to aegis (keeping invuln on self). Possible allow aegis to stack (every stack is +1 attack blocked) but that might break things...

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Scipion.7548 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > You are effectively complaining that there is no tank role offered to multiple classes. That's because the game was never designed with having classes tank in the first place. Thus comaring this to WoW and complaining is like going to a bank and complaining that you can't buy fruit there. Sure you might get offered some coffee at the bank, but you will never get more than that.

> >

>

> The analogy isn't correct. Now a trinity has emerged, the bank is now a fruit store but the fruits are unbalanced (only apple, no ananas !).

 

Yeah, a trinity has emerged for part of the games raid bosses (not even all of them) with a most optimal meta and dozens of off perfect meta possibilities. For raid content which to begin with is not that hard.

 

Meanwhile in the rest of the 99% of the game this new trinity does not exist.

 

I totally call that a bank turning into a fruit store.

 

> @Scipion.7548 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> >I'll save you a lot of heartache: you will never see a hard trinity in GW2.

>

> I don't want an hard trinity. I totally accepted since the beginning that there is no pure DPS, healers and tanks in this game. I don't want a 100% healer. But hey, there healer stuff, healer weapons (mace/staff for the guard), healer runes, healer utility skills, so ok a 100% healer guy don't exist but a healing oriented guy is reasonable no ?

> All I wanted was to be a "healer or def support oriented" guardian, which is permitted by Anet ... When I created my character, the guardian was (and always is) described like that *"Guardians specialize in **protective and defensive** magic. A deep sense of **loyalty to their allies** fuels their passion and power."* Defense, protection, allies, that is a tanky healer right ? Can I play a tanky healer oriented guardian in fractals, raids, etc while stile being competitive (optimal ?) and so accepted by the majority of the players ? If the answer is no, Anet failed for me.

 

So to sum your grief up: "I can't be a support healer in raids as my guardian. The entire game needs to be rebalanced because in 1% of the content my class of choice does not play the way I want it to."

 

Yeah, totally warrants a groundbreaking change and redo of the entire balance system.

 

> @Scipion.7548 said:

>

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > the "meta" healer (Druid) are preferred because of their unique damage buffs, NOT because they are better tanks and/or healers compared to the other options.

>

> I know that Firebrand provides more healing than druid, but in the day of the end, which of them has the healer slot ? Healers are unbalanced, maybe not because of their healing, but they are still extremely unbalanced.

 

So this is a nerf druid thread in disguise? How do people in WoW feel about resto druids in 2v2 or 3v3 matchups (them being dominant for multiple years with paladins before that. Not sure what the flavor of the month healer is now)?

 

If you spent 1/2 the time finding a decent guild and friends ingame with whom to raid with instead of whining on the forums, you would have had your possibility to run a healing whatever class with them. Most raid guilds which are not hardcore are very flexible.

 

> @Scipion.7548 said:

>

> I don't want making GW2 a WOW2. I just want to play in all contents the character Anet promised me when I create it. A tanky healer/def support oriented guardian.

>

 

Which guardian is. In 99% of the game (even WvW).

 

> @Scipion.7548 said:

> >FF14 is pretty good in that regard.

>

> FF14 is a japanese garbage for teens. Sorry, i cannot.

 

That's how quite a few people here feel about WoW. Imagine how they feel with all these WoW comparisons and balance ideas.

 

 

[OriOri.8724]

> @Warlyx.6732 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > @SmashGd.1056 said:

> > > Nerf the dickens out of chronomancer so other tank models can compete. And stop nerfin scourges utility and support and lower the damage.

> >

> > Ok, and what are you going to give chronomancer in return?

>

> mesmer as a whole u mean because chrono is whats left for Mesmer to do any group content

>

 

No, I meant chronomancer. Because all chronomancer brings to mesmer is personal sustain, alacrity, large access to quickness, and illusion generation. If you nerf the fuck out of chronomancer in reference to raiding it means severely nerfing our access to alacrity and quickness, which means chrono would bring nothing but personal sustain and illusion generation, and both would already be nerfed by less access to alacrity.

[Phil.7369]

> @Draco.9480 said:

> Before I start, I just want to point out that I don't want to hear any kitbag answers like "don't like the game? don't play!" or "form your own group and play what you want" or "just give up on useless class/build and move on" or "it's not wow" or "compain cuz can't play your favorite" etc. It's not because I want necro to be good but EVERYONE to be good on POWER and CONDI. Also have few optiosn for TANKs and HEALERS.

 

> People shouldn't pass raids if they don't invest time in their build/class or don't give a kitten. To invest more mechanics to the bosses.

 

> To make raid bosses that have mechanics that will make people to get hang of it and pass it like after few weeks. NOT like on the first day like the HoT Raids!

 

Good post, I agree with most things but I have to comment on the quoted ones.

You start with "I don't want to hear this and that".. you don't get to choose what you will hear or not. You make a long post discussing end-game balance expecting not to be criticized or trolled! Forums don't work like this.

Before returning to GW2 I used to be a power gamer in a different and much smaller MMO and I along with about 10 other players was the sole feedback the devs had about endgame balance. We had made so many suggestions and posted long rants/feedback/ideas and always there was criticism and the typical fanboys/trolls. Eventually we all quitted because the game devs didn't (still don't) give a damn and had no bugdget to update, but that's a different story. Anyway, my point is you never start a post in such a way if you wish to be taken seriously. Criticism is welcome, troll posts can be ignored and fanboys who have no idea what endgame is can also be ignored or simply exposed until they decide to stop humilliating themselves further. Polite and civilized is almost always the best way to be taken seriously.

 

Second quote: "People shouldn't pass raids if this or that"

I completely disagree with the mentality. But I agree with the "prestige" aspect. A player who dedicates his time in raiding should obviously be rewarded or renowned for his efforts. I agree with the fact that any casual or random player with zero clue of what he's doing should obviously not be on par with a serious power gamer. BUT the moment you exclude people out of content is the moment where your game will start bleeding players. People pay for the expansions and as such they desire to experience the entire game and included the Raids. Tell me... how would a Witcher 3 player feel like if a specific boss fight said "Not for scrubs, pros only"! Would the game still be regarded as one of the best RPGs ever made?

Do you wish to support and help enrich GW2? I believe you do, but splitting your pve community will not help you with this. So how do we allow casuals to experience Raids too? Well WOW once again has the answer and GW1 also did! Easy Mode/Normal Mode/Hard/Elite/Mythic etc. you name it. A lot of people, myself included don't have time to research meta builds, compare DPS results and train in Raid groups. Working 40+ hours a week leaves you with few play-time and not every day is a gaming day.

You already compare GW2 to the top MMORPG in the world (WOW) which is good, because one who cares enough should try to compete with the best if he wants to be the best. But look at what aspects of WOW made the game so famous. It is definetly not the "no casuals allowed" mentality.

 

3d quote

As far as I remember Groseval took at least a week to beat from one of the raiding guilds. At least that's what I read and heard in community videos. Could be wrong of course.

 

Read this post to get some ideas: https://dd.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/78gqz6/post_pof_pve_meta_balance_issues/

Very good job to Nike I must say. A once hated and disrespected "elitist" who acted very toxicly a few years ago, but still a great theory-crafter and power gamer.

Now he seems to have made a complete Change of Heart. Very civilised tone, detailed and thorough explanation along with proposed solutions to his criticism. I am really amazed by the change in attitude that he has made.

[Andwari.2978]

I totally agree with all the points from the TE

[MrRay.3027]

I never understood why people are against different tiers in raids. Besidea the childish reason, of wanting all the toys to yourself.

[TexZero.7910]

> @MrRay.3027 said:

> I never understood why people are against different tiers in raids. Besidea the childish reason, of wanting all the toys to yourself.

 

Let me ask you this

 

Would you rather your gameplay be of quality or do you want to sacrifice quality fights for trivial rewards ?

Because what i never get is a straight answer from the multi-modal crowd. If raids (which they wont as stated) have easier modes are you guys really okay with the rewards being significantly less than whats currently offered. Because that's quite literally the trade off you're going to get.

 

Now then this game has shown us on a number of times that the group that complains about rewards the loudest is often the one not doing the least rewarding content ex. Story Mode Dungeons, T1-T2 fractals, anything other than the highest GP/H map on repeat. To that end designing a space for these people becomes moot as it never sees replay value and eventually becomes dead space.

[Joxer.6024]

> @Phil.7369 said:

> Read this post to get some ideas: https://dd.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/78gqz6/post_pof_pve_meta_balance_issues/

> Very good job to Nike I must say. A once hated and disrespected "elitist" who acted very toxicly a few years ago, but still a great theory-crafter and power gamer.

> Now he seems to have made a complete Change of Heart. Very civilised tone, detailed and thorough explanation along with proposed solutions to his criticism. I am really amazed by the change in attitude that he has made.

 

This really, really, really, REALLY needs to be seen by the Devs! thanks for posting that link! that is just what the game needs for sure and I think it would be a win/win for all!

[musu.9205]

> @Joxer.6024 said:

> > @Phil.7369 said:

> > Read this post to get some ideas: https://dd.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/78gqz6/post_pof_pve_meta_balance_issues/

> > Very good job to Nike I must say. A once hated and disrespected "elitist" who acted very toxicly a few years ago, but still a great theory-crafter and power gamer.

> > Now he seems to have made a complete Change of Heart. Very civilised tone, detailed and thorough explanation along with proposed solutions to his criticism. I am really amazed by the change in attitude that he has made.

>

> This really, really, really, REALLY needs to be seen by the Devs! thanks for posting that link! that is just what the game needs for sure and I think it would be a win/win for all!

 

careful with what you guys asking for

the changes he said may as well lead to a new meta : 2 firebrands support 1 rev healer 1 druid healer 1 soulbeast dps with one spirit 1 dps rev with alacrity buff 1 ps war 1 deadeye or scourge might stacker and 2 slots for dps (firebrand will also take that slots for all bosses you want condi ,otherwise it will be holo or weaver ).and mesmer will be useless in high end pve .

have fun with that .

[Joxer.6024]

> @musu.9205 said:

> > @Joxer.6024 said:

> > > @Phil.7369 said:

> > > Read this post to get some ideas: https://dd.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/78gqz6/post_pof_pve_meta_balance_issues/

> > > Very good job to Nike I must say. A once hated and disrespected "elitist" who acted very toxicly a few years ago, but still a great theory-crafter and power gamer.

> > > Now he seems to have made a complete Change of Heart. Very civilised tone, detailed and thorough explanation along with proposed solutions to his criticism. I am really amazed by the change in attitude that he has made.

> >

> > This really, really, really, REALLY needs to be seen by the Devs! thanks for posting that link! that is just what the game needs for sure and I think it would be a win/win for all!

>

> careful with what you guys asking for

> the changes he said may as well lead to a new meta : 2 firebrands support 1 rev healer 1 druid healer 1 soulbeast dps with one spirit 1 dps rev with alacrity buff 1 ps war 1 deadeye or scourge might stacker and 2 slots for dps (firebrand will also take that slots for all bosses you want condi ,otherwise it will be holo or weaver ).and mesmer will be useless in high end pve .

> have fun with that .

 

Yea, not looking to make any class useless, just balance things up a bit.

[musu.9205]

> @Joxer.6024 said:

> > @musu.9205 said:

> > > @Joxer.6024 said:

> > > > @Phil.7369 said:

> > > > Read this post to get some ideas: https://dd.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/78gqz6/post_pof_pve_meta_balance_issues/

> > > > Very good job to Nike I must say. A once hated and disrespected "elitist" who acted very toxicly a few years ago, but still a great theory-crafter and power gamer.

> > > > Now he seems to have made a complete Change of Heart. Very civilised tone, detailed and thorough explanation along with proposed solutions to his criticism. I am really amazed by the change in attitude that he has made.

> > >

> > > This really, really, really, REALLY needs to be seen by the Devs! thanks for posting that link! that is just what the game needs for sure and I think it would be a win/win for all!

> >

> > careful with what you guys asking for

> > the changes he said may as well lead to a new meta : 2 firebrands support 1 rev healer 1 druid healer 1 soulbeast dps with one spirit 1 dps rev with alacrity buff 1 ps war 1 deadeye or scourge might stacker and 2 slots for dps (firebrand will also take that slots for all bosses you want condi ,otherwise it will be holo or weaver ).and mesmer will be useless in high end pve .

> > have fun with that .

>

> Yea, not looking to make any class useless, just balance things up a bit.

 

if anet follow nike suggest , that's what will happen .instead 6 fixed slots we will get 8 fixed slot .

without dps balance (not just big hit box but also support dps ) , melee vs ranged balance for raid boss design etc . those ideas will just make things worse .

also if anet wants to balance game around raid role , they have rework traits entirely .

 

right now some support needs 2 or 3 trait lines to function like chrono ,some really only require one like rev or firebrand (if you build for quickness). same goes for dps .

every class just take what you must have then grab highest dps traits usually those +% dmg mod.

 

with current trait system . it is impossible to balance around raid role while giving each class standardized buff.and everytime they change something ,some class may be dropped entirely due to lower dps .

anet didn't even do a great job to balance pure dps build . how worse it could be if they have to balance support build's dps .

 

current raid meta isn't ideal or even good . but really the root problem is not just support buff . and if they simply follow what nike suggested , meta will become worse .

and btw for everyone who forgot , GOTL is exactly what they suggested during HOT beta .

 

also if done well , raid content design could create more soft role .

 

people who hates current meta most are

1. who wants to tank as heavy class , that will never gonna happen

2. who wants more challenging , eve with current raid , they can just drop chrono ,ps , druid and try hard. and hopefully future raid will become harder.

3. who wants to play what they want , that will never gonna happen

4. who are sick of playing certain support class , unless anet balance team could dramatically change meta every 3 month , that will just be another meme instead of chrono 5.who wants more soft roles instead of 6 locked slot .so far they havent offer any solid idea that will not turn raid meta into a pure dps race than it is now.

6.who wants a more balanced game .they have to agree , in order to get that happen, anet needs to balance traits and dps for each spec first before they ever balance support role .

 

so yeah , i don't really think that long post is well thought out .

[Feanor.2358]

> @MrRay.3027 said:

> I never understood why people are against different tiers in raids. Besidea the childish reason, of wanting all the toys to yourself.

 

The childish reason is "I want the shinies without any effort".

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Joxer.6024 said:

> > @Phil.7369 said:

> > Read this post to get some ideas: https://dd.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/78gqz6/post_pof_pve_meta_balance_issues/

> > Very good job to Nike I must say. A once hated and disrespected "elitist" who acted very toxicly a few years ago, but still a great theory-crafter and power gamer.

> > Now he seems to have made a complete Change of Heart. Very civilised tone, detailed and thorough explanation along with proposed solutions to his criticism. I am really amazed by the change in attitude that he has made.

>

> This really, really, really, REALLY needs to be seen by the Devs! thanks for posting that link! that is just what the game needs for sure and I think it would be a win/win for all!

 

What Nike wrote is well put together and makes sense. He points to some of the obvious problems and overpowered features of the 3 classes in the current meta.

 

But-

 

his suggestion is no solution to the problem people are seeing or arguing about.

 

The current meta works because 3 classes provide a maximum amount of benefit required (times two since two squads) while allowing 4 damage dealers to get taken along. Reducing the effectiveness of the 3 support roles (chrono, cPS and druid) would indeed make them less required. At the same time, the loss of utility and support the raid compostion now faces will have to be compensated by other classes. This creates an even stricter meta of up to 8 fixed slots. Potentially with a more diverse mix of classes but with stricter rules as to which builds get taken along and harsher demand for top dps (meaning even less damage builds become viable).

 

There is 2 other ways how balance can be approched:

 

A.) make other support classes be able to mirror what chrono, cPS or druid can do, creating alternatives. Possible but unrealistic since 100% balance is near impossible. You'd require a significant amount normalisation between the classes as well as less unique buffs or shared buff roles (similar to how WoW dealt with imbalance between classes). In turn making the game more stale.

 

B.) a change in requirements of support roles and buffs for raids. Reduce the requirements for support roles in general, meaning: make their main benefits affect 10 instead of 5 people. This way raids groups only need 1 of each support class for their unique benefits and can fill up more slots with dps or different supports. Obviously this would require a massive rebalance both on all damage builds as well as support builds.

 

The most obvious solution to depower overpowered classes would not necessarily bring the wanted effect since the demand or requirement for the utility they provide remains unchanged. It would be better to change what is demanded of a raid group in order to force change in what setup is getting taken along.

[Joxer.6024]

I actually don't mind the current "meta" where you take the needed support roles and then 4 dps. That's plenty really. No different from WOW really in that you had 1/2 tanks, healers and then some cc filled in by dps.

Would just be nice if the 4 dps slots could become more open for other classes, that's all I would like. You cant get away from the other as its needed really.

[Feanor.2358]

It is actually not as hard to balance the *support*. Buffs are capped, so if you introduce a new source which can upkeep 100% uptime of quickness/alac/might/whatever, it is effectively balanced against the current sources of these buffs. Granted, there will be variations in group utility and personal dps but it at least enables some trading off (take a build will less utility and more dps or vice versa).

[Miellyn.6847]

> @Joxer.6024 said:

> I actually don't mind the current "meta" where you take the needed support roles and then 4 dps. That's plenty really. No different from WOW really in that you had 1/2 tanks, healers and then some cc filled in by dps.

> Would just be nice if the 4 dps slots could become more open for other classes, that's all I would like. You cant get away from the other as its needed really.

 

The only class that doesn't have a competetiv DPS build right now is necromancer. The rest is pretty close (classes, not power/condi variants). Mesmer can have competetiv DPS in some cases.

[Zenith.7301]

> @Joxer.6024 said:

> I actually don't mind the current "meta" where you take the needed support roles and then 4 dps. That's plenty really. No different from WOW really in that you had 1/2 tanks, healers and then some cc filled in by dps.

> Would just be nice if the 4 dps slots could become more open for other classes, that's all I would like. You cant get away from the other as its needed really.

 

Mythic raid size is 20 man. 2 tanks, 3 healers. 5 people out of 20 are a support role. Not half.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> > @Joxer.6024 said:

> > I actually don't mind the current "meta" where you take the needed support roles and then 4 dps. That's plenty really. No different from WOW really in that you had 1/2 tanks, healers and then some cc filled in by dps.

> > Would just be nice if the 4 dps slots could become more open for other classes, that's all I would like. You cant get away from the other as its needed really.

>

> Mythic raid size is 20 man. 2 tanks, 3 healers. 5 people out of 20 are a support role. Not half.

 

But when raids were divided between 25 and 10 man you had 2 tanks and 2-3 healer for 10man raiding. More 3 than 2. Thats 50% for the same size.

Bigger groups tend to have less support than smaller groups. Really bad comparison.

[Joxer.6024]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> > @Joxer.6024 said:

> > I actually don't mind the current "meta" where you take the needed support roles and then 4 dps. That's plenty really. No different from WOW really in that you had 1/2 tanks, healers and then some cc filled in by dps.

> > Would just be nice if the 4 dps slots could become more open for other classes, that's all I would like. You cant get away from the other as its needed really.

>

> Mythic raid size is 20 man. 2 tanks, 3 healers. 5 people out of 20 are a support role. Not half.

 

Apples and oranges mate, really. Was just a general example not rocket science. And I never di Mythic 20 mans, just 10 man raids with the good ol 40 man back in the day...so my example stands.

And in reference to Nike's post the bit I am a big fan of is the might gen part. Having each class passively generate might would be a good thing and allow for other options I think. Until something else comes along banners are pretty much a given but not having to go PS might be better for War, maybe? A lot of his other bits kinda lose me but I get where he headed for the most part but sadly it would all be far to big a project for ANET to do at this stage.

[Walhalla.5473]

> @Joxer.6024 said:

> I actually don't mind the current "meta" where you take the needed support roles and then 4 dps. That's plenty really. No different from WOW really in that you had 1/2 tanks, healers and then some cc filled in by dps.

> Would just be nice if the 4 dps slots could become more open for other classes, that's all I would like. You cant get away from the other as its needed really.

 

So 6 slots being reserved to 3 classes is ok? There are quite a few DPS builds that are meta but they have to compete for 4 slots while you have double chrono, double, druid and double ps warrior who are always in the 6 support slots.

[Joxer.6024]

> @Walhalla.5473 said:

> > @Joxer.6024 said:

> > I actually don't mind the current "meta" where you take the needed support roles and then 4 dps. That's plenty really. No different from WOW really in that you had 1/2 tanks, healers and then some cc filled in by dps.

> > Would just be nice if the 4 dps slots could become more open for other classes, that's all I would like. You cant get away from the other as its needed really.

>

> So 6 slots being reserved to 3 classes is ok? There are quite a few DPS builds that are meta but they have to compete for 4 slots while you have double chrono, double, druid and double ps warrior who are always in the 6 support slots.

 

Meh, you all are never going to agree on any sort of fix or comprise or solution. Peeps will always find a way to tear someone down.