PoF Balance Problems

[Elfindale.4836]

Death judgement should not be unblockble, these kind of skills just create problem when deadeye can cast while stealthed, if they agree the cast time is increased to 1.75 sec, and auto reveal deadeye, then maybe unblockble is a consideration.

Mirage mobility at this point is only on par with theif ,maybe a d/p theif, still below a s/d theif, and its class mechanism is way broken then it was advertised. I don't think taking away mesmer utility at this stage is a fair nerf, since this meta really is unfriendly to mesmer to begin with. you will hardly see one, and this class need something to set it apart, mobility is the only thing power mesmer gets from all the existing weapon ambush that is borderline useful, this should be way down the list to be worried about.

spell breaker is broken to the core, its actually not this elite line or full counter that is causing problem, if anet really want to fix warrior they should start with its defensive mechanism, damage and sustain should not have coexisted, other classes become super glassy when they use zerker amulet, and war can do damage for very long without having to worry about the health, you all know what I am talking about. and its mobility on gs just add to that since disengage is way too easy. that is an example where they need to be shaved. make them choose between physical immunity or condi immunity, they have to be vulnerable to at least one of them

DO anyone else feels like fights now are evolved around the scourge on the points? it is not new to pvp , but in the past you do not have a 360 radius spammable aoe class siting in the circle, and can be healed by the bunker at the same time, Reapers, df auramancer all had its time, but they are in nowhere come closer to the scourge today. I say in exchange for its coverage , scourge should lose its pressure, the condition applied and the boons it converted need to be tuned down

.

[musu.9205]

> @MyPuppy.8970 said:

> > @Kyon.9735 said:

> > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > Reducing the aftercast delays would be a good approach, along with speeding up the chain a bit, but his first paragraph was about damage, so I thought he wanted a flat damage increase on top of faster attacks. Then again, at the same time, Weaver fire and air sword auto chains deal more damage than mesmer's sword auto chain, and also completes in the same amount of time (~2.4 seconds for weaver, ~2.4-2.5 seconds for mesmer). So if weaver sword auto chain needs love, then so does mesmer's, yet I don't see a lot of people asking for that, so I have trouble believing this isn't a subjective request on his part.

> > >

> > > And the range problem is not unique to weaver sword, so I think its mostly a moot issue.

> >

> > Might be better to have mesmer mains to answer that. But from my experience of playing both classes, it's more of a difference in playstyle. **Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.**

> >

> > Mesmers have shatter, which is a class mechanic, as their primary source of damage. They don't really need to be swinging their swords around. They can also opt to use ranged weapons as a 2nd weapon set and doesn't really need to stick to their targets 100% of the time. Most use sword for defensive purposes (Blurried Frenzy). Mirage on sword is a different case. They also rely on auto attacks but has abundant mobility (Mirage Thrust, Jaunt) to stick to its target.

> >

> > Elementalists doesn't have damaging class mechanics similar to Shatter so **they are more reliant on landing and chaining their weapon skills**. Weaver sword mobility is mediocre and is a pure melee build. Pair the mediocre damage, slow attack animation, and mediocre mobility, sword weaver has more trouble sticking to its target compared to a sword mirage.

> >

> > To simply put it, landing auto attacks is a lot more important to Sword Weavers than Mesmers who shatter for damage, can use ranged weapons, or has good mobility (Mirage). As a pure melee build with the lowest base armor and HP in the game, it makes sense for me if a Sword Weaver is better at pressuring than other melee classes as part of risk/reward.

> >

> I would add the fact that aa chains disrupts the class mechanic which relies on comboing different skills on different attunements to get things done. Inversely, the class mechanic also disrupts the aa chain.

>

 

mesmer class mechanic does not simply do dmg themselves .

mesmer has to donate clones and phant which are from weapon skills as well .

shatter isn't magically happening . and yes sword on mesmer needs some buff as well . its way too slow to make AA chain even meaningful .

and mirage mobility is not on bar with DD . since they don't get extra dodge like thief .they dont even have useful tool to regain mirage cloak beside dodge in current condi mirage build .

 

it's quite simple , mesmer only has one dmg source , shatter , burst your target down or you are doomed

ele has much stronger weapon skills and more skills to use in a game without any meaningful resource management but all about cds. so they have more attacks , less punishing for mistake .

the problem with ele as dmg dealer is always they don't have reliable way to land their dmg beside fresh air which is bit gimmick to begin with . you can ask high dmg you want , in the end it will become gimmick just like fresh air , what ele needs is always: stay alive and land the attack reliably. otherwise your dps build will forever locked with offhand focus to gain that window to safely land your gank skill .

 

mesmer doesn't need something like thief dagger aa dmg . but power mesmer in general needs more sustain damage .otherwise yes , it does not have enough pressure . its a simple fact .

we all hate stealth gank .

fix stealth or nerf mesmer burst a bit and but give actual meaningful sustain dmg .that's the way to go ,

[crewthief.8649]

> @Elfindale.4836 said:

> Death judgement should not be unblockble, these kind of skills just create problem when deadeye can cast while stealthed, if they agree the cast time is increased to 1.75 sec, and auto reveal deadeye, then maybe unblockble is a consideration.

> Mirage mobility at this point is only on par with theif ,maybe a d/p theif, still below a s/d theif, and its class mechanism is way broken then it was advertised. I don't think taking away mesmer utility at this stage is a fair nerf, since this meta really is unfriendly to mesmer to begin with. you will hardly see one, and this class need something to set it apart, mobility is the only thing power mesmer gets from all the existing weapon ambush that is borderline useful, this should be way down the list to be worried about.

> spell breaker is broken to the core, its actually not this elite line or full counter that is causing problem, if anet really want to fix warrior they should start with its defensive mechanism, damage and sustain should not have coexisted, other classes become super glassy when they use zerker amulet, and war can do damage for very long without having to worry about the health, you all know what I am talking about. and its mobility on gs just add to that since disengage is way too easy. that is an example where they need to be shaved. make them choose between physical immunity or condi immunity, they have to be vulnerable to at least one of them

> DO anyone else feels like fights now are evolved around the scourge on the points? it is not new to pvp , but in the past you do not have a 360 radius spammable aoe class siting in the circle, and can be healed by the bunker at the same time, Reapers, df auramancer all had its time, but they are in nowhere come closer to the scourge today. I say in exchange for its coverage , scourge should lose its pressure, the condition applied and the boons it converted need to be tuned down

> .

 

Warrior needs that type of defense. They don't have teleports, stealth, _distortion_, _portal_, etc., etc. SB probably needs to be toned down a bit (though probably not by much), but Warrior definitely doesn't need to lose it's sustainability/survivability. Without the benefit of the type of defense I referenced above, the class needs a very solid defensive mechanism, otherwise they'd never get in long enough to do any sort of damage. Not to mention, Warrior lacks a truly competent (or viable) ranged weapon.

[coro.3176]

Base Warrior has all that though. Spellbreaker adding a skill on a 6 second cooldown that bursts, cc's, blocks, grants resistance, transfer condi, etc. etc. just puts it way over the top. Like many elite specs, it's pure power creep on top of the base class.

[crewthief.8649]

> @coro.3176 said:

> Base Warrior has all that though. Spellbreaker adding a skill on a 6 second cooldown that bursts, cc's, blocks, grants resistance, transfer condi, etc. etc. just puts it way over the top. Like many elite specs, it's pure power creep on top of the base class.

 

I believe I stated that SB probably needs an adjustment, correct me if i'm wrong. Most of my post was regarding Warrior as a whole, in reply to the quoted poster whose issue seems to be with core Warrior. Though saying that, you are aware that FC has to be traited in order to do everything you're talking about, right?

[Kuya.6495]

I still believe that SB can be viable but not op if fc's various benefits are split into different traits so warriors will need to pick and choose whether they get physical damage immunity, condi immunity or dps on fc. Putting resistance and condi copy on a different trait that competes with making fc unblockable and dazes would be good.

[masskillerxploit.2165]

> @Chaith.8256 said:

> This list of balance changes is objectively very good. Subjectively, I have no problem with the difficulty of landing Holographic Shockwave and don't think that skill needs any buffs, if someone held a gun to my head for an idea to buff it, I'd say reduce the heat cost by 5.

 

IMO, holosmith is on the brink of being good, however I don't think it will live up to what mirage, scourge, spellbreaker, and thief currently can offer. It will be an underdog class until sword is buffed, but even with that.. the other classes need to be toned down.

 

-ferox

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @Elfindale.4836 said:

> Death judgement should not be unblockble, these kind of skills just create problem when deadeye can cast while stealthed, if they agree the cast time is increased to 1.75 sec, and auto reveal deadeye, then maybe unblockble is a consideration.

> Mirage mobility at this point is only on par with theif ,maybe a d/p theif, still below a s/d theif, and its class mechanism is way broken then it was advertised. I don't think taking away mesmer utility at this stage is a fair nerf, since this meta really is unfriendly to mesmer to begin with. you will hardly see one, and this class need something to set it apart, mobility is the only thing power mesmer gets from all the existing weapon ambush that is borderline useful, this should be way down the list to be worried about.

> spell breaker is broken to the core, its actually not this elite line or full counter that is causing problem, if anet really want to fix warrior they should start with its defensive mechanism, damage and sustain should not have coexisted, other classes become super glassy when they use zerker amulet, and war can do damage for very long without having to worry about the health, you all know what I am talking about. and its mobility on gs just add to that since disengage is way too easy. that is an example where they need to be shaved. make them choose between physical immunity or condi immunity, they have to be vulnerable to at least one of them

> DO anyone else feels like fights now are evolved around the scourge on the points? it is not new to pvp , but in the past you do not have a 360 radius spammable aoe class siting in the circle, and can be healed by the bunker at the same time, Reapers, df auramancer all had its time, but they are in nowhere come closer to the scourge today. I say in exchange for its coverage , scourge should lose its pressure, the condition applied and the boons it converted need to be tuned down

> .

 

Death’s Judgement already Auto Reveals.... but I agree the cast should be increased but to 1 or 1-1/4.

[Elfindale.4836]

> @crewthief.8649 said:

> > @Elfindale.4836 said:

> > Death judgement should not be unblockble, these kind of skills just create problem when deadeye can cast while stealthed, if they agree the cast time is increased to 1.75 sec, and auto reveal deadeye, then maybe unblockble is a consideration.

> > Mirage mobility at this point is only on par with theif ,maybe a d/p theif, still below a s/d theif, and its class mechanism is way broken then it was advertised. I don't think taking away mesmer utility at this stage is a fair nerf, since this meta really is unfriendly to mesmer to begin with. you will hardly see one, and this class need something to set it apart, mobility is the only thing power mesmer gets from all the existing weapon ambush that is borderline useful, this should be way down the list to be worried about.

> > spell breaker is broken to the core, its actually not this elite line or full counter that is causing problem, if anet really want to fix warrior they should start with its defensive mechanism, damage and sustain should not have coexisted, other classes become super glassy when they use zerker amulet, and war can do damage for very long without having to worry about the health, you all know what I am talking about. and its mobility on gs just add to that since disengage is way too easy. that is an example where they need to be shaved. make them choose between physical immunity or condi immunity, they have to be vulnerable to at least one of them

> > DO anyone else feels like fights now are evolved around the scourge on the points? it is not new to pvp , but in the past you do not have a 360 radius spammable aoe class siting in the circle, and can be healed by the bunker at the same time, Reapers, df auramancer all had its time, but they are in nowhere come closer to the scourge today. I say in exchange for its coverage , scourge should lose its pressure, the condition applied and the boons it converted need to be tuned down

> > .

>

> Warrior needs that type of defense. They don't have teleports, stealth, _distortion_, _portal_, etc., etc. SB probably needs to be toned down a bit (though probably not by much), but Warrior definitely doesn't need to lose it's sustainability/survivability. Without the benefit of the type of defense I referenced above, the class needs a very solid defensive mechanism, otherwise they'd never get in long enough to do any sort of damage. Not to mention, Warrior lacks a truly competent (or viable) ranged weapon.

 

that's what i am saying, warrior's current defensive mechanism is all just straightforward hard skill effects, you have to admit they are the most effective and straight forward model of defense. look at them, physical immunity on use, on passive proc, condi immunity passive and on demand. they even let condi removal to ride with their source of damage . when factor in spell breaker , you get even more.

If they want to let warrior feels they have enough time to set up, burst and go back and forth, then they should not have infinite round of damage . I understand thief and mesmer all have different defensive mechanisms than warrior, but here is one thing all class have in common, we all make decision in this game regarding how we spend the resource we have, defense is also a strategic resource used to fuel the time it allowed you to do damage, this is the same for pve, and any game mode, but in current pvp, I feel warrior because of its short burst cd on its burst cycle and its close to immortal defense mechanism , it feels like they do not have to make the decision every other class is making. why? because its weapon damage is already so high that makes burst bar damage matters very little(no set up required). there is no such thing as a critical skill which warrior need to land otherwise he has to retreat because he will run out of defensive even if he land all other damage skills. it is because unlike theif and mesmer, who are either limited by resource(use it as attack or defense) or critical mechanisms like shatter( miss the shatter and u have to run), **there is very weak interlink between warrior class mechanism(burst) and its survival. ** i know this comparison might not be very suitable but you get the point.

I use mesmer and theif because they kind of represent the two basic philosophy in this game, a CD driven class and a resource driven class. other classes depend on its defensive mechanism are more or less the same. but now I just can't find where can i fit warrior into this puzzle. they are virtually superior.

look at the warrior's buff history, you will notice most its weapon damage buff comes before they buff its defensive mechanism. this is before when hambow reign supreme. a time when warrior's main build use axe and gs, and is actually weak. during the period I often see a patch notes where Dev want to solve this by buffing weapon damage to compensate for its sustain. Later, they fixed warrior sustain but never take a look at the overtuned damage they gave it before.

I guess nobody realized this thing will be so huge after all these years.

Power creep right?

[Skittledness.5106]

You should be comparing and contrasting diff classes to compare which professions outclass diff roles.

[Vaeo.4097]

> @Hooglese.4860 said:

>

> **Mirage**

> Despite what people say, Mirage is great and a little op. The axe needs some help but that's about it.

> * *Axes of Symmetry* - Needs to be debugged, it currently doesn't always teleport you in range of your opponent.

> * *Mirage Thrust* - Distance should be lowered cause the mobility makes portal plays really easy.

 

**Mirage**

 

* **Key problem with Mirage** -- **it has no clear team role**. During HoT Chronomacer was roaming build with hight dueling potential. 2 blocks from shield and sword evade allowed them to keep side nodes in 1v1 fights. Now Mirage too slow for roamer role and too weak in duels against Spellbreakers and Scourges (scourge can be defeated but it takes much time while he easily pushes mirage from node). And he's too squishy for teamfights, though sometimes can land nice burst.

* **Ambush skill from Axe** should be totally reworked, it's useless now. It should attack current target. Attack should work even if target is behind. Current damage is ok (it's rather low to be honest).

* **Mirage Thrust** distance should not be lowered. Or mirage should gain +25% movement speed from traits. Mirage thrust is very costly skill -- it costs 50 endurance. Reducing distance will make this skill not worth to use as mobility skill.

 

> @Hooglese.4860 said:

>

> **Spellbreaker**

> SB is good and always will be, but one traits an outlier that makes Spellbreaker borderline broken.

> * *Revenge Counter* is overpowered. There's no reason to take any of the other traits over it. Reducing the resistance, damage bonus and condition copied would help but ideally, one of those needs to be removed entirely and the conditions copied would be my candidate.

 

**Spellbreaker**

 

* **Key problem -- fighting Spellbreaker 1v1 easier than 2v1.** It's absolutely ridiculous!

* **"Full Counter"**. **Revenge Counter** is the main problem here. With **Slow Counter** it applies 7 conditions (extremely high amount) to 5 enemies. AoE daze is absolutely fine, but this trait makes FC damage too high. Condition copying should be removed totally. This trait, for example, can return attack to attacker with damage multiplied by 3 (or just fixed high counterattack damage to attacker only).

* **"Full Counter"** shouldn't be triggered by pets, illusions, etc. All their attacks should be just blocked or evaded.

 

 

> @Hooglese.4860 said:

>

> **Deadeye**

> Deadeye is annoying but not really viable. Daredevil's strength/thieves core issues are more of the issue but that's not the topic. Basically I want to make it less of a pain in the kitten but better overall.

> * Call out voice line should be less frequent and attached to a skill. It's just random and annoying.

> * *Preparedness* - should be made baseline to open up new builds, which is the core weakness of Deadeye since the other traits don't work with it as well.

> * *Deadeye's Mark* - Faster cast time or instant.

> * *Death's Judgement* - Longer cast time but made unblockable to deal with the amount of projectile denial in the game but also make it easier to dodge.

> * *Shadow Meld* - lower cast time and cooldown.

> * *Maleficent Seven's heal* - should be put in Perfectionist. It already gives better malice generation and more of it, it doesn't need to also heal.

 

**Deadeye**

 

* To be honest, it's more than annoying. Worse than other thief builds, but rather deadly. If kiting abilities used correctly rather hard to focus. Of course, mirage and other thieves counter Deadeye, but classes without teleports has problems against him.

* Requires some autoattack damage nerf: 3.5K damage every 0.75 sec is too much (3.5K -- crit damage with kneeling, but without malice stacks, and at least 3 of 4 shots are crits). Considering deadeye has good kiting abilities 3.5K is very high damage.

* Death Judgement's damage is fine but cast time should be increased to at least 1.25 sec. Reason: while casting DJ thief is revealed, but animation of stealth disappears only after 0.5 sec after reveal (approximately, but it definitely not instant). So thief and his red ray is visible only 0.25 before huge damage comes.

Making DJ unblockable -- well, looks fair if cast time increased.

* Can't say much about other suggestions. **Sniper play style just don't fit into GW2 PvP model**. Can't imagine how sniper build should look to provide difference between skillful player and newbie. So Deadeye will always be about damage: OP if damage is high or useless if damage is low.