Something I am not understanding.

[Daedalus Palamaon.8934]

So I have been playing since Beta and absolutely adore my Guardian. Hell I still play Hammer/dps/buff in raids (cause hell if it ain't broke don't fix it). I recently tried out an alt - which I rarely do - and leveled up a Necromancer. I have to say I am falling in love with reaper. I know its a selfish gameplay style (night and day compared to guardian) - but but the visuals just really amp it up for me. Now my guild is more lenient then most Raid PUGS and allows me to Reaper DPS - which got me to thinking why PUG raiders are so "Meta" heavy. What happaned in GW2 that PUGS either want to speed run and have the most LEETHAXXOR builds ever. I rarely if ever die when raiding when compared to my guardian (having a second health bar does that), and so in my mind while I may not be the highest dps - I am still alive and am still providing damage to the boss - is that not more important. I can also bring forth evidence of certain "commanders" who do gear checks in PUG raids when they themselves have not completed it but that is another story.

 

Back on topic - I saw with the nerf of Scourge that people starting complaing about a dip in DPS - but to my knowledge it is still quite high. I mean just using simple math Gorseval has 22 million HP. That's 2.2 million HP per minute that needs to go. Or about 37k health per second...or 3.7k dps from each party member. Now obviously that's a little lenient because there are realistic stops and gaps in dps due to movement and other shenanigans... but lets say 8k dps (double) for stop gaps in time. That can literally be your auto attack... and in berserker gear.

I mean as long as you aren't aggroing the boss... there should be no problem downing him if you know the mechanics.

 

I guess I am just a little frustrated - frustrated at the PUG mentality that running a Meta build is the best build and any deviation from that is seen as "You are using a carp build."

 

Maybe a two part question: How do you get rid of that stupid idea from peoples heads (I have seen someone run Chronomancer DPS (!) and out DPS some pretty good builds and he still got kicked for not using a Meta Build. I have had friends ping their "Meta Weapons," switch before the fight, out dps people, and still get kicked/called out for not using a proscribed build). Furthermore, would just buffing base swing damage from reaper form make it more competitive (maybe raise the power -> base damage component)?

 

Meh maybe I am just looking too much into things :anguished:

[Swamurabi.7890]

Maybe you should have posted this in one of the raid meta classes forum

[Deadvillager.1956]

Not that i am defending it but even running meta builds, many players will not reach the dps numbers they could reach. Now add LI faking, trying out that class you always wanted and running an off meta build without the knowledge to actually craft a potential build and you are stuck with wiping for hours. It is an imaginary safety net against unsuccessful runs.

[Daedalus Palamaon.8934]

> @Deadvillager.1956 said:

> It is an imaginary safety net against unsuccessful runs.

 

Quoted for truth. I came from WoW and have no idea why people are treating GW2 like WoW..... it just upsets me I can’t go swoooosh swoooosh in reaper form for a raid :(

[pah.4931]

Human nature happened. The original incarnation of GW2 was deigned to combat this natural desire for many players to be "elitist" or, maybe more apropos, "Optimalists"... (combat, not eradicate) but the dungeon designs were abandoned and replaced with Fractals and Raids, which both are more inclined to draw out this type of behavior.

 

It's the problem of having different "builds" ... since that idea is very unrealistic (maybe, "unnatural" is again the better term). In baseball, you just be the best athlete you can. And if you don't play your best, you are hurting your team. You can't really CHOOSE to be a Power Hitter instead of an On Base kinda player. You just do the best you can with what you got. But imagine if you could choose, and your line-up really needed a Power Hitter but you chose to be an On Base guy because you enjoy it more and the best you can do as an On Base guy is not nearly as good as your other On Base guys, and also not nearly as good as your Power Hitter potential. That choice hurts your team. It's natural, when the choice is available, to want to help your team most, even if that means not playing the way you want.

 

If there is no choice then all that's left for the player to do is his or her best. In the case of an MMO, there are only two ways to "not have a choice," and that is: 1) no build diversity , or 2) perfect or close to perfect balance... I think we can all agree we'd prefer to have build diversity, so that leaves Anet with the job of balancing better.

 

The first thing they need to do is remove the dichotomy of power versus condi. This either/or mentality is bad for the game and makes balancing a nightmare.

[Murdock.6547]

You cannot possibly get rid of the idea of pointless exclusion.

People have been theorising dps and optimization of it since dungeons.

People have been excluded for not playing classes before, and they will continue to be excluded in the future.

 

And especially while trying to convince strangers (pugs) I promise you, they will simply write you off as an idiot before ever considering what you have to say.

Even if you spend hours doing the math with as little margin for error as humanly possible with the data we've been given.

Until a major guild plays something off meta consistently, the perceived pug meta will never change.

 

That is to say, it's also important to realize why the meta is what it is. Look hard and long at what it does, all things MUST be considered. And if you want to try something else ensure very thoroughly that what you are replacing is worthwhile or accomplishes the same goals with similar or better efficiency.

Even then, do not expect any singular soul to believe you until the top guilds do it themselves months or even years later.

 

Also remember that people are biased and they are resistant to change. Even you are biased, me as well. We cannot help it and all we can do is try to minimize its effects on our ideas. .. So changing a meta will never happen overnight.

[Daedalus Palamaon.8934]

> @pah.4931 said:

> Human nature happened. The original incarnation of GW2 was deigned to combat this natural desire for many players to be "elitist" or, maybe more apropos, "Optimalists"... (combat, not eradicate) but the dungeon designs were abandoned and replaced with Fractals and Raids, which both are more inclined to draw out this type of behavior.

>

> It's the problem of having different "builds" ... since that idea is very unrealistic (maybe, "unnatural" is again the better term). In baseball, you just be the best athlete you can. And if you don't play your best, you are hurting your team. You can't really CHOOSE to be a Power Hitter instead of an On Base kinda player. You just do the best you can with what you got. But imagine if you could choose, and your line-up really needed a Power Hitter but you chose to be an On Base guy because you enjoy it more and the best you can do as an On Base guy is not nearly as good as your other On Base guys, and also not nearly as good as your Power Hitter potential. That choice hurts your team. It's natural, when the choice is available, to want to help your team most, even if that means not playing the way you want.

>

> If there is no choice then all that's left for the player to do is his or her best. In the case of an MMO, there are only two ways to "not have a choice," and that is: 1) no build diversity , or 2) perfect or close to perfect balance... I think we can all agree we'd prefer to have build diversity, so that leaves Anet with the job of balancing better.

>

> The first thing they need to do is remove the dichotomy of power versus condi. This either/or mentality is bad for the game and makes balancing a nightmare.

 

While I understand your example - I would inherently disagree with it. You are using a win/lose example - insofar if I were to use a reaper vs my greasword DH guardian the raid would lose (or be hurt). I would counterargue that again - ou only need to put out 3.7k dps! Now coming from WoW - one could argue that choosing someone with less dps could increase the chance of hitting rage timer - but GW2 is soooo lenient in that matter. Maybe saying that having less dps can cause a higher chance for the raid to mess up (more time = greater chance of mistake) but even then I would argue it down to people knowing the fight.

 

As to the other person who posted about changing peoples ideas - it’s sad that if a major guild/website doesn’t validate it - it doesn’t happen. I am a teacher in real life - and can sadly say I’ve seen this level of... “drone mentality”... sadly.

 

Maybe I am being to optimistic or humanist in believing in an ideal of what guild wars 2 was trying to achieve... cause I loved running dungouns with some funky looking builds but now it’s all about speed speed speed and efficiency. Sigh - now I’m feeling defeated ?

 

 

I guess for reaper to be better you would have to fix the power vs. condition dichotomy and also buff power reapers coefficient (? Maybe wrong word) when interacting with power and damage.

 

Nice inputs guys - I guess doom and gloom might just be the mood haha.

 

Edit: should have said dhuum and gloom ... missed opportunity lol

[Maunzi.3764]

>What happaned in GW2 that PUGS either want to speed run and have the most LEETHAXXOR builds ever. I rarely if ever die when raiding when compared to my guardian (having a second health bar does that), and so in my mind while I may not be the highest dps - I am still alive and am still providing damage to the boss - is that not more important.

 

Human nature happened. Humans want to improve, not do the bare minimum. Once people improve, they expect others to improve.

This is why you have LI gating - people want others to be as experienced as they.

This is why you have certain DPS requirements. People want others to contribute as much as they.

 

At the end of the day, you can't fight that. That's why most MMOs in the market make sure that classes are close in output, so "bring the player, not the class" is what happens, as opposed to GW2's "bring the class, not the player".

 

If people can't laserfocus on obvious things ("this class sucks! Therefore KICK"), it's much harder to be immediately exclusionary. This is why it's so important to fix our ailing class - once this easy "kick sign" on our back is gone, people will have a much harder time being stupid like this. Other MMOs prove this. Even WoW did- it went from a "Paladins/Shamans cannot dps, they are trash at anything but trashy healbotting" to "Paladins and Shamans are legitimate DPS choices like any other class, who cares, just bring one"

 

If humans were perfect, angelic saints, none of it would be needed.

 

>As to the other person who posted about changing peoples ideas - it’s sad that if a major guild/website doesn’t validate it - it doesn’t happen.

 

It's not a website. Everyone can do the basic numbers, because we have the baseline, and everyone can run arcdps. If most reapers people see are doing way less for the raid, people won't bring em. Our current situation is actually better than it used to be - in the past, we had downright idiotic metas ("4 warriors only!") because people THOUGHT it was the best. Now we have the tools to prove if it isn't the case.

 

The only problem is, our tools still prove that Necromancer is in a bad PVE spot. Wouldn't take much to save us though. Look at Scourge. Necro was seen as bad, PoF comes around, Scourge does as much DPS as everyone else in raids, and nobody minded one along for these weeks. QTFY was not needed to do this: Actual ingame experience showed it, long before qtfy even posted a benchmark.

 

 

There's hope. If Anet gives us the tools, we'll be fine even if qtfy ignores us forever.

 

> Even then, do not expect any singular soul to believe you until the top guilds do it themselves months or even years later.

 

This isn't true! PoF showed that. We do not NEED the big guilds to do that. Anyone can write a reddit post detailing good results in comparable conditions. That's what got Scourge accepted for a while - the big honchos were late to the party.

[czerwoni.9563]

go to metabattle make an account and post your build and have the community rate and give you tips on it. a lot of 'meta' builds are made from off meta builds. maybe you will find something new that people will like to play, its worth a try.

[Rashagar.8349]

Yeah, and it's always the case that the people actively spreading their vitriol will be the very ones that will complain loudest about the game "dying" or whatever, and they will blame everything under the sun for it except for their own behaviour.

 

(I enjoy a bit of doom and gloom too sometimes hehe)

[pah.4931]

> @"Daedalus Palamaon.8934" said:

> > @pah.4931 said:

> > Human nature happened. The original incarnation of GW2 was deigned to combat this natural desire for many players to be "elitist" or, maybe more apropos, "Optimalists"... (combat, not eradicate) but the dungeon designs were abandoned and replaced with Fractals and Raids, which both are more inclined to draw out this type of behavior.

> >

> > It's the problem of having different "builds" ... since that idea is very unrealistic (maybe, "unnatural" is again the better term). In baseball, you just be the best athlete you can. And if you don't play your best, you are hurting your team. You can't really CHOOSE to be a Power Hitter instead of an On Base kinda player. You just do the best you can with what you got. But imagine if you could choose, and your line-up really needed a Power Hitter but you chose to be an On Base guy because you enjoy it more and the best you can do as an On Base guy is not nearly as good as your other On Base guys, and also not nearly as good as your Power Hitter potential. That choice hurts your team. It's natural, when the choice is available, to want to help your team most, even if that means not playing the way you want.

> >

> > If there is no choice then all that's left for the player to do is his or her best. In the case of an MMO, there are only two ways to "not have a choice," and that is: 1) no build diversity , or 2) perfect or close to perfect balance... I think we can all agree we'd prefer to have build diversity, so that leaves Anet with the job of balancing better.

> >

> > The first thing they need to do is remove the dichotomy of power versus condi. This either/or mentality is bad for the game and makes balancing a nightmare.

>

> While I understand your example - I would inherently disagree with it. You are using a win/lose example - insofar if I were to use a reaper vs my greasword DH guardian the raid would lose (or be hurt). I would counterargue that again - ou only need to put out 3.7k dps! Now coming from WoW - one could argue that choosing someone with less dps could increase the chance of hitting rage timer - but GW2 is soooo lenient in that matter. Maybe saying that having less dps can cause a higher chance for the raid to mess up (more time = greater chance of mistake) but even then I would argue it down to people knowing the fight.

>

> As to the other person who posted about changing peoples ideas - it’s sad that if a major guild/website doesn’t validate it - it doesn’t happen. I am a teacher in real life - and can sadly say I’ve seen this level of... “drone mentality”... sadly.

>

> Maybe I am being to optimistic or humanist in believing in an ideal of what guild wars 2 was trying to achieve... cause I loved running dungouns with some funky looking builds but now it’s all about speed speed speed and efficiency. Sigh - now I’m feeling defeated ?

>

>

> I guess for reaper to be better you would have to fix the power vs. condition dichotomy and also buff power reapers coefficient (? Maybe wrong word) when interacting with power and damage.

>

> Nice inputs guys - I guess doom and gloom might just be the mood haha.

>

> Edit: should have said dhuum and gloom ... missed opportunity lol

 

While agree with you that raids are different than a baseball game (win/lose versus win/win better), it doesn't matter. What matters is perception. And the perception is that you are "hurting" your team by deliberately choosing to be less optimal. This perception stems from and is reinforced by human nature, MMO (and gaming) culture, and bad game design...

 

The biggest culprit is human nature, though. We love the road most traveled. We love efficiency. We love the biggest, best reward for the least amount of effort. Take Hearthstone, for example. This is a game where people will play decks they don't enjoy to earn rewards faster in order to spend those rewards on more cards to build more decks they don't enjoy playing. This is made worse by the fact that Blizzard has designed the game to reward this behavior. It's a vicious cycle.

 

The good news is that if you have some good friends or a decent guild, you should be fine to run a less-than-optimal build as long as everyone just wants to have fun.

[Dadnir.5038]

You take the good example of gorseval and you probably know that this boss have very annoying mechanics that are avoidable throught dps. You should also know that you need some pretty high burst to avoid those said mechanisms and that at the end of gorseval fight you definitely have to have a high dps in order to avoid him wiping your raid.

 

Anyway, the real issue of the necromancer is not any meta thingy or whatever, it's issue is that he has been put out of the high end PvE content since launch of the game and is very very very frustrated to be in this suboptimal state.

 

- In core game the necro was doing nothing for it's group in PvE, had very low power damage and bosses were dead before he could even dish out half of it's condi ramp up (which did less damage then any other power damage profession except mesmers). Add to that that he was beyond slow to run from one point to another and couldn't block the hard hitting boss that were one shoting him... There was no use for him.

 

- Since HoT, anet started to push hard the condi management support that they want the necro to supply. Is it usefull in PvE? It's very niche, to the point that it's done by other profession that pile up more support and more damage.

 

- You point out survivability, it's a void argument, each and every profession have survivability. No, let's be honest, none of the professions would be willing to invest a few point in vitality if it meant for them to lose some dps. To some extent, the necromancer is more forced to have a high health pool than he is willing to have it.

 

However, like I said before, no PuG group want to face the annoying mechanisms that can be skipped by some high dps. Nobody want profession that have a higher survivability when facing those mechanisms, they just want to avoid them! That's why they look for the professions that deal the most damage. You won't achieve anything by saying what you say on the necromancer forum because you can't change the fact that a professions have been exclude by other professions from the high end PvE for already 5 years and it's not gonna change for the next 2 years.

 

I enjoyed playing hammer guard as well. Honnestly, it does have as much resilience than a necromancer. Yet it does have usefull support and high dps which make him welcome anywhere. In the core game I was often playing guardian to carry necromancers through dungeon and fractal. Today necromancers still need their teammate to carry them through the high end content just because they don't have competitive dps and PvE support.

 

Understand that it's very frustrating and it's not just a "meta" thing. The necromancer deserve to be able to have at least some competitive dps. It got nothing else for him, even your so called survivability is an illusion that you are willing to believe while in fact the truth is that a necromancer ain't more resilient than the professions that cry about being to squishy.

[Daedalus Palamaon.8934]

> @Maunzi.3764 said:

> >What happaned in GW2 that PUGS either want to speed run and have the most LEETHAXXOR builds ever. I rarely if ever die when raiding when compared to my guardian (having a second health bar does that), and so in my mind while I may not be the highest dps - I am still alive and am still providing damage to the boss - is that not more important.

>

> Human nature happened. Humans want to improve, not do the bare minimum. Once people improve, they expect others to improve.

> This is why you have LI gating - people want others to be as experienced as they.

> This is why you have certain DPS requirements. People want others to contribute as much as they.

>

> At the end of the day, you can't fight that. That's why most MMOs in the market make sure that classes are close in output, so "bring the player, not the class" is what happens, as opposed to GW2's "bring the class, not the player".

>

> If people can't laserfocus on obvious things ("this class sucks! Therefore KICK"), it's much harder to be immediately exclusionary. This is why it's so important to fix our ailing class - once this easy "kick sign" on our back is gone, people will have a much harder time being stupid like this. Other MMOs prove this. Even WoW did- it went from a "Paladins/Shamans cannot dps, they are trash at anything but trashy healbotting" to "Paladins and Shamans are legitimate DPS choices like any other class, who cares, just bring one"

>

> If humans were perfect, angelic saints, none of it would be needed.

>

> >As to the other person who posted about changing peoples ideas - it’s sad that if a major guild/website doesn’t validate it - it doesn’t happen.

>

> It's not a website. Everyone can do the basic numbers, because we have the baseline, and everyone can run arcdps. If most reapers people see are doing way less for the raid, people won't bring em. Our current situation is actually better than it used to be - in the past, we had downright idiotic metas ("4 warriors only!") because people THOUGHT it was the best. Now we have the tools to prove if it isn't the case.

>

> The only problem is, our tools still prove that Necromancer is in a bad PVE spot. Wouldn't take much to save us though. Look at Scourge. Necro was seen as bad, PoF comes around, Scourge does as much DPS as everyone else in raids, and nobody minded one along for these weeks. QTFY was not needed to do this: Actual ingame experience showed it, long before qtfy even posted a benchmark.

>

>

> There's hope. If Anet gives us the tools, we'll be fine even if qtfy ignores us forever.

>

> > Even then, do not expect any singular soul to believe you until the top guilds do it themselves months or even years later.

>

> This isn't true! PoF showed that. We do not NEED the big guilds to do that. Anyone can write a reddit post detailing good results in comparable conditions. That's what got Scourge accepted for a while - the big honchos were late to the party.

 

But again - maybe I am too idealistic - I remember when Guild Wars 2 was a bring the player not the class game. I stopped playing a little after scarlets War (took a break right though heart of thorns and up to out of fire) and it seems like the elitism kinda sprung up. Hell - I remember even doing fractals in some stupid builds (pvp bunker warrior was my favorite stupid build to run) and yeah - it took us longer - but we laughed the whole way through. Goddamit I just want the human aspect back. I was doing the AB Meta yesterday and some people didn’t know what to do - so I coached them through it and they were super excited (even gave them my suit of armour). We get to dps-ing the gate and we are a little slow (remember these guys were new) and I’m coaching them when two people (who will remain unarmed) starting berating the kitten out of them. I mean it was bad (insulting their rotation, builds, why couldn’t they dps quicker). Now mind you we downed it on the first try but I got a pm from one thanking me - but asking if all raids/dungouns have people like that.

 

Now I know not everyone is helpful in GW2 - but I feel maybe the community has gotten a bit - I don’t know - elitist isn’t the word I’m looking for.

 

At the end of the day - if I have the LI’s and I say I can play power reaper with decent dps (and beat out some of your “leet” damage dealers) - I cannot believe people would still look at the evidence and still say “nah - Change or kick”

 

Although as I’m writing this I’m thinking about how anti-vaxxers think and am starting to make a connection....

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Daedalus Palamaon.8934" said:

> > @Maunzi.3764 said:

> > >What happaned in GW2 that PUGS either want to speed run and have the most LEETHAXXOR builds ever. I rarely if ever die when raiding when compared to my guardian (having a second health bar does that), and so in my mind while I may not be the highest dps - I am still alive and am still providing damage to the boss - is that not more important.

> >

> > Human nature happened. Humans want to improve, not do the bare minimum. Once people improve, they expect others to improve.

> > This is why you have LI gating - people want others to be as experienced as they.

> > This is why you have certain DPS requirements. People want others to contribute as much as they.

> >

> > At the end of the day, you can't fight that. That's why most MMOs in the market make sure that classes are close in output, so "bring the player, not the class" is what happens, as opposed to GW2's "bring the class, not the player".

> >

> > If people can't laserfocus on obvious things ("this class sucks! Therefore KICK"), it's much harder to be immediately exclusionary. This is why it's so important to fix our ailing class - once this easy "kick sign" on our back is gone, people will have a much harder time being stupid like this. Other MMOs prove this. Even WoW did- it went from a "Paladins/Shamans cannot dps, they are trash at anything but trashy healbotting" to "Paladins and Shamans are legitimate DPS choices like any other class, who cares, just bring one"

> >

> > If humans were perfect, angelic saints, none of it would be needed.

> >

> > >As to the other person who posted about changing peoples ideas - it’s sad that if a major guild/website doesn’t validate it - it doesn’t happen.

> >

> > It's not a website. Everyone can do the basic numbers, because we have the baseline, and everyone can run arcdps. If most reapers people see are doing way less for the raid, people won't bring em. Our current situation is actually better than it used to be - in the past, we had downright idiotic metas ("4 warriors only!") because people THOUGHT it was the best. Now we have the tools to prove if it isn't the case.

> >

> > The only problem is, our tools still prove that Necromancer is in a bad PVE spot. Wouldn't take much to save us though. Look at Scourge. Necro was seen as bad, PoF comes around, Scourge does as much DPS as everyone else in raids, and nobody minded one along for these weeks. QTFY was not needed to do this: Actual ingame experience showed it, long before qtfy even posted a benchmark.

> >

> >

> > There's hope. If Anet gives us the tools, we'll be fine even if qtfy ignores us forever.

> >

> > > Even then, do not expect any singular soul to believe you until the top guilds do it themselves months or even years later.

> >

> > This isn't true! PoF showed that. We do not NEED the big guilds to do that. Anyone can write a reddit post detailing good results in comparable conditions. That's what got Scourge accepted for a while - the big honchos were late to the party.

>

> But again - maybe I am too idealistic - I remember when Guild Wars 2 was a bring the player not the class game. I stopped playing a little after scarlets War (took a break right though heart of thorns and up to out of fire) and it seems like the elitism kinda sprung up. Hell - I remember even doing fractals in some stupid builds (pvp bunker warrior was my favorite stupid build to run) and yeah - it took us longer - but we laughed the whole way through. Goddamit I just want the human aspect back. I was doing the AB Meta yesterday and some people didn’t know what to do - so I coached them through it and they were super excited (even gave them my suit of armour). We get to dps-ing the gate and we are a little slow (remember these guys were new) and I’m coaching them when two people (who will remain unarmed) starting berating the kitten out of them. I mean it was bad (insulting their rotation, builds, why couldn’t they dps quicker). Now mind you we downed it on the first try but I got a pm from one thanking me - but asking if all raids/dungouns have people like that.

>

> Now I know not everyone is helpful in GW2 - but I feel maybe the community has gotten a bit - I don’t know - elitist isn’t the word I’m looking for.

>

> At the end of the day - if I have the LI’s and I say I can play power reaper with decent dps (and beat out some of your “leet” damage dealers) - I cannot believe people would still look at the evidence and still say “nah - Change or kick”

>

> Although as I’m writing this I’m thinking about how anti-vaxxers think and am starting to make a connection....

 

It's not even new... In fact, this "elitism" is here since year 1. You just didn't see it or didn't have to see it because you chose to stop early. There is even bad (at playing themself) players that insult you because you use some build that are unknown to them.

[Daedalus Palamaon.8934]

Oh I remember when a chonomancer ran dps - out damaged EVERYONE - and was called out to go back to the normal build of chronomancer. I physically put my palm on my head. Real pissy about it to... had a good laugh later

[vicious.5683]

Meta build + trash player = power reaper + great player (in terms of dps).

People will just asume you are trash player if you are pug-ing your raids, so you need a meta build to be accepted.

[Anchoku.8142]

The problem with Necromancer in raids is more of a problem in how raids allow players too much freedom in grouping.

 

There are a very large number of players who believe it is their right to speed-clear and their right to kick anyone they do not believe will provide the best support for that speed run.

 

Necromancer can do fairly good dps but not max dps or provide the boons to support max dps for other professions. On paper, this means Necromancer does not deserve a slot.

 

Arenanet refuses to do anything about raid grouping discrimination.

[Daedalus Palamaon.8934]

I remember commenting a while ago that a necromancer reaper “debuff” - essentially instead of passing out buffs to other players - each strike would do three debuffs (do more break bar damage, stacking debuff for raid extra damage, stacking debuff for more condi dmg). I imagine it to be the oldddddd paladin style of playing where you would leave seal debuffs when you use judgement on a player. That way reaper keeps it’s hard hitting abilities and they now benefit the raid!

 

One of my friends was saying that whenever there is chill applied by you on a target the raid gets a 5% dmg bonus - or when you inflict blind on the target crit chances for raid gets a 5% increase. Cool things where you are making the target weaker while also hitting like a truck.

 

 

But I am not a developer so.... yeah... hahaha.

 

Again I just miss the whole being the player not the class concept :/

 

 

I guess until they fix it I remain a GS dragonhunter guardian (while every now and then taking out my hammer shhhhhh)

[Daedalus Palamaon.8934]

> @vicious.5683 said:

> Meta build + trash player = power reaper + great player (in terms of dps).

> People will just asume you are trash player if you are pug-ing your raids, so you need a meta build to be accepted.

 

 

Sorry man but I HIGHLYYYY disagree with your statement. Trashy players are too focused on calling out others for their mistakes, consistently are downed and/or dead (which is 0 dps) and overall affect the raid negatively. A good player (no matter what class) will know/learn the fight, take constructive criticism, and survive to sonstantly dps.

 

You can do your own thing but I will 100% take a person who is a good player with a non meta behold over a trashy player who netlisted their build.

 

Your argument reminds me (here comes the rageful geek) of people who net list in miniature wargames like 40k. These people have disposable income - and look online for a literal build to buy without understanding the intricacies of the army - play one game and most likely lose - and then complain that his net list couldn’t beat another persons list.

 

Your argument is saying that’s ok. I’ve seen my dude John bring some TERRIBLE lists against people who bring some shenanigan type kitten stuff - and 90% if the time he will win due to him knowing his army through and through (dudes been playing since the 80’s)

 

So yeah - I would 100% take some dude who knows his class and took the time to level him vs another trash player who figured out that X can do omgwtfbbqsauceleet dps and decided to roll it and then die constantly due to him not knowing what to do

 

 

 

 

But that’s just me - your mileage will vary

 

 

 

 

[Amethyst Lure.5624]

I think the most damaging aspect of this, is that it will inevitable reduce the diversity of a game. The more raid balancing to adhere to a strict even balance, the less unique each class is going to get. I don't know how to fix that, or if you can have a happy medium. It's just direct correlation in every game I've played with raids in them. So it's hard for me to bash non-meta things if i see the player is still doing well, because I know where it leads to just have a few "viable" specs each balance pass. And I'm still not saying it's wrong to have the mindset to push for the best possible configurations or so, I'm just pointing out the side effects.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @Dadnir.5038 said:

> You take the good example of gorseval and you probably know that this boss have very annoying mechanics that are avoidable throught dps. You should also know that you need some pretty high burst to avoid those said mechanisms and that at the end of gorseval fight you definitely have to have a high dps in order to avoid him wiping your raid.

 

Doesn't Gorseval have an attack that he starts 8 times through the fight that wipes the party if they're still on the platform when it resolves and only 4 updrafts?

 

Good thing that attack gets interrupted at specific health thresholds.

 

So, to the OP, this is why the low DPS doesn't really work out like that. You need the high DPS against Gorseval not to beat the enrage timer (which is pretty generous on that fight), but to keep they party alive at all. If you can't DPS him down fast enough, you just get wiped. No save, no spell resistance, just die.

 

Now, Gorseval is one example, but most encounters have non-explicit timers as well. Sabetha, for example, you need the individual DPS to handle cannons. It's not an explicit timer, but it very much is one in practice. These non-explicit timers are why the required DPS is much higher than you think.

[Renita.7824]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > You take the good example of gorseval and you probably know that this boss have very annoying mechanics that are avoidable throught dps. You should also know that you need some pretty high burst to avoid those said mechanisms and that at the end of gorseval fight you definitely have to have a high dps in order to avoid him wiping your raid.

>

> Doesn't Gorseval have an attack that he starts 8 times through the fight that wipes the party if they're still on the platform when it resolves and only 4 updrafts?

>

> Good thing that attack gets interrupted at specific health thresholds.

>

> So, to the OP, this is why the low DPS doesn't really work out like that. You need the high DPS against Gorseval not to beat the enrage timer (which is pretty generous on that fight), but to keep they party alive at all. If you can't DPS him down fast enough, you just get wiped. No save, no spell resistance, just die.

>

> Now, Gorseval is one example, but most encounters have non-explicit timers as well. Sabetha, for example, you need the individual DPS to handle cannons. It's not an explicit timer, but it very much is one in practice. These non-explicit timers are why the required DPS is much higher than you think.

 

 

Scourge has enough damage to solo cannons just fine, and sabetha is actually an example of the fight that having a necro with epi literally negates the entire last phase turret mechanic. Epi on cd and they fall over leaving everyone else to just sit on boss. Nothing replaces epi on mursaat overseer, and almost every fight is enhanced by epi. Even Sam, oh that spear spawned on us, nbd epi killed it. Do necros need to buffed, especially on single target dps, absolutely, the nerf was too much. And if they decide to not buff us very much they need to increase our might range and generation. Honestly, open world is kinda annoying how long it takes to kill things compared to prenerf. But we are still viable in raids. My 2 statics have not kicked me, and if I say I can't come, they are sad. One necro per raid is very useful. My group killed gors tonight, no updrafts, cc immediately, and we made every timer just fine. The raids have a lot of mechanics that will wipe you, but they do not have high dps requirements. Its anyone's right to want to run speed clear loot piñata runs with people with 100s of Lis who do every mechanic perfectly. But it's my experience that there are groups who even take some pugs, who don't expect to be running perfect meta groups and clear the content fine, with lots of fun. It's a game, so what's fun to some people is not fun for everyone. For me, scourge is fun, and I feel very useful, I was even top damage on a few fights tonight, while being 2nd in boss damage.

 

 

[nintama.9436]

Necro specs are actually very good in pve raid for beginning groups. Not top DPS, but provide enough stuffs to make raid easier.

- High dmg AoE kill things around (epi) - Gors orb, MO scout, Sam spear, trio

- Strong CC from distance (flesh golem) - cover green and CC VG

- Little group heal - blood magic trait

- Massive team condi clean (plague signet, Scourge f2) - sloth

- "Seek and rescues" - transfusion - sloth poison, matt

- Perma slow cripple - seeker control, spirit, back dog

- Can survive alone - 2nd hp bar, siphon - sab kite

 

Those allow necro do multiple raid mechanics cover the team. That's the main reason why necro spec were popular in pug fractal, not the fastest, but safest. That's for beginning.

 

The problem with raid is when team get familiar with mechanic and don't need necro to cover anymore, that's when we're out of job. Now the question someone to cover others' mistakes become high DPS = less mechanic = less room for mistake. It's fine if some groups let people play necro, it's all good. My group always look back to necro every time we need to smooth thing out. I just don't like to bring it in an experience group where people don't need it while I can bring anything better. I don't think it's fair to be play the class I want having fun while other 9 people, especially tank chrono and heal druid are probably not having fun with their classes. No one main assassin classes to be a tank or healer.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

> @"Daedalus Palamaon.8934" said:

> > @Deadvillager.1956 said:

> > It is an imaginary safety net against unsuccessful runs.

>

> Quoted for truth. I came from WoW and have no idea why people are treating GW2 like WoW..... it just upsets me I can’t go swoooosh swoooosh in reaper form for a raid :(

 

I went back to WoW and I'm happy my Blood DK is welcomed for a change, I was so happy I spent money in the cash shop because that's how you get people to spend money, you know making them happy playing what they want.

[Maunzi.3764]

> @"Daedalus Palamaon.8934" said:

> But again - maybe I am too idealistic - I remember when Guild Wars 2 was a bring the player not the class game.

 

The problem is that "bring the player, not the class" only works when the class is worth to bring. When the delta between the classes is as enormous as it is now, a, then there's no reason for a stranger to just bring you, when they can bring someone else that simply does far better.

 

The elitism didn't spring up after scarlet's war, it was there all along. Remember Arah runs before Season 1 was a thing? Yeah, damn straight were classes excluded there.

 

> At the end of the day - if I have the LI’s and I say I can play power reaper with decent dps (and beat out some of your “leet” damage dealers) - I cannot believe people would still look at the evidence and still say “nah - Change or kick”

 

You can say you have the LIs, but I can just go to a certain website, enter the code for legendary insights, enter a number, and "prove" you I have more LI than the game could offer. 200, 600, 800, doesn't matter, I can easily link em all in whatever split you want. You have no actual proof that you have them, and groups know this.

 

So, from the perspective of a group, they see you trying to play a class that is not helping the group (already a big red flag, raiders generally pick classes that aid the group), and then extrapolate from there.

 

It's less anti-vaxx, because the difference is both huge and objectively measurable. A better comparison would be that the average GW2 person is someone that doesn't donate to charity. Bringing a necro along at the moment is exactly that: Charity. It costs the group time and possible raid clears, because the added speed from other classes makes the runs that much smoother, while the necro's survivability doesn't do a thing. When Gorseval uses a certain attack, and the group doesn't want to do updrafts, survivability is pointless, what matters is high enough DPS. When people want to skip a certain part of KCs mechanics, again DPS matters, not survivability. Sabetha gets much easier with good DPS, trio does, Sloth does, VG does, Samarog does, Cairn does, Daimos does, Xera does.

 

TBH, I can't think of a raidboss except Matthias where personal survivability matters at all.

 

Of course, raids can still be cleared when it carries a necro or two. It's just easier with everyone using better classes right now. Just like it's easier if everyone does good builds, uses foods, uses runes, uses sigils. Raids can all be done without it, but see what happens after you state that you are not using food, sigils, and runes in an average run.