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Dagger/Dagger Suggestions


Yasai.3549

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D/D 3 :

Triple Trouble

Disappear and strike rapidly in a Triangular AoE.

 

Ini cost : 5

Evade : 1/2s

Triangular AoE : 300-300-300 centered on the Thief when cast

Targets : 5

Hits 3 times

Applies 2 Stacks of Bleed per hit

 

**Why tho?**

Dagger needs some cleave.

 

If Dagger/Pistol won't provide this cleave, then I would like Dagger/Dagger to provide the cleave instead.

 

**But why a Triangular AoE, what was wrong with Death Blossom?**

Death Blossom has the problem of actually not hitting the target if the target moves out of the actual attack range, and it doesn't matter if yu move with the target mid cast, the actual hit position doesn't actually follow.

 

 

 

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> D/D 3 :

> Triple Trouble

> Disappear and strike rapidly in a Triangular AoE.

>

> Ini cost : 5

> Evade : 1/2s

> Triangular AoE : 300-300-300 centered on the Thief when cast

> Targets : 5

> Hits 3 times

> Applies 2 Stacks of Bleed per hit

>

> **Why tho?**

> Dagger needs some cleave.

>

> If Dagger/Pistol won't provide this cleave, then I would like Dagger/Dagger to provide the cleave instead.

>

> **But why a Triangular AoE, what was wrong with Death Blossom?**

> Death Blossom has the problem of actually not hitting the target if the target moves out of the actual attack range, and it doesn't matter if yu move with the target mid cast, the actual hit position doesn't actually follow.

>

>

>

 

Death Blossom can grant evasiveness for a short moment and apply some condition damage along with physical damage; however, one is vulnerable after its animation has ended.

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> @"Sylvia.4870" said:

 

> Death Blossom can grant evasiveness for a short moment and apply some condition damage along with physical damage; however, one is vulnerable after its animation has ended.

 

Death Blossom is just a bad skill which finds use on a target that isn't moving and isn't actively biting yur face off.

It's garbage period, and it needs a rework.

 

My suggestion is to turn it into a quick evade + cleaving skill.

Simple and does the job.

Nothing more nothing less.

 

The unique AoE is just for flavour, but 300-300-300 wide Triangle is pretty generous for cleaving.

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"Sylvia.4870" said:

>

> > Death Blossom can grant evasiveness for a short moment and apply some condition damage along with physical damage; however, one is vulnerable after its animation has ended.

>

> Death Blossom is just a bad skill which finds use on a target that isn't moving and isn't actively biting yur face off.

> It's garbage period, and it needs a rework.

>

> My suggestion is to turn it into a quick evade + cleaving skill.

> Simple and does the job.

> Nothing more nothing less.

>

> The unique AoE is just for flavour, but 300-300-300 wide Triangle is pretty generous for cleaving.

 

I couldn't agree more! It should be reworked.

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"Sylvia.4870" said:

>

> > Death Blossom can grant evasiveness for a short moment and apply some condition damage along with physical damage; however, one is vulnerable after its animation has ended.

>

> Death Blossom is just a bad skill which finds use on a target that isn't moving and isn't actively biting yur face off.

> It's garbage period, and it needs a rework.

>

> My suggestion is to turn it into a quick evade + cleaving skill.

> Simple and does the job.

> Nothing more nothing less.

>

> The unique AoE is just for flavour, but 300-300-300 wide Triangle is pretty generous for cleaving.

 

I'd be cool with that if there were a secondary channeled mode of it that turned it into a faster roll on the ground for about 900 distance but take out damage or something. That kit is a pain to make work, there's always some big compromise in traits or utility that just doesn't warrant it over other kits and builds.

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> @"kash.9213" said:

 

> I'd be cool with that if there were a secondary channeled mode of it that turned it into a faster roll on the ground for about 900 distance but take out damage or something. That kit is a pain to make work, there's always some big compromise in traits or utility that just doesn't warrant it over other kits and builds.

 

Honestly?

The **problem people have** with Dagger/Dagger isn't mobility at all, which I've also considered so in the past.

 

It's the inability to access Stealth without hitting a target.

 

D/P is just all the wonderful things : can Access Stealth anywhere and has a 900 range gap closer, and the gap closer does do some respectable damage.

 

I don't really wish to see D/D become something to "compete with D/P" in the same aspects, but I rather D/D be more supportive of a Melee fighter style, with Cleaves etc.

It's not like they have no mobility, people have been using Heartseeker spam to move around for awhile now.

And besides, no one is stopping Thief from using Shadowstep Signet, which thieves have been using back in the old days to gap close from 2000 range away.

 

Thieves could definitely use a good cleave for pve and wvw anyway.

 

Here's another fun idea though, which I know all Thieves will reject with their life :

This new cleave skill I've proposed replaces Heartseeker as Dagger 2, and Heartseeker becomes Dagger/Dagger 3

Goodbye D/P

 

#;9

 

 

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

>

> > I'd be cool with that if there were a secondary channeled mode of it that turned it into a faster roll on the ground for about 900 distance but take out damage or something. That kit is a pain to make work, there's always some big compromise in traits or utility that just doesn't warrant it over other kits and builds.

>

> Honestly?

> The **problem people have** with Dagger/Dagger isn't mobility at all, which I've also considered so in the past.

>

> It's the inability to access Stealth without hitting a target.

>

> D/P is just all the wonderful things : can Access Stealth anywhere and has a 900 range gap closer, and the gap closer does do some respectable damage.

>

> I don't really wish to see D/D become something to "compete with D/P" in the same aspects, but I rather D/D be more supportive of a Melee fighter style, with Cleaves etc.

> It's not like they have no mobility, people have been using Heartseeker spam to move around for awhile now.

> And besides, no one is stopping Thief from using Shadowstep Signet, which thieves have been using back in the old days to gap close from 2000 range away.

>

> Thieves could definitely use a good cleave for pve and wvw anyway.

>

> Here's another fun idea though, which I know all Thieves will reject with their life :

> This new cleave skill I've proposed replaces Heartseeker as Dagger 2, and Heartseeker becomes Dagger/Dagger 3

> Goodbye D/P

>

> #;9

>

>

 

I feel like CnD is enough for stealth and would rather be able to intercept a teammate being stomped or pull myself out of an angry blob without Shadowstep always being on cd when I actually need it. I get that the kit doesn't technically need it, but a build with d/d ends up demanding it regardless of how creative we get with traits and all that. Inf signet is going to compete for a slot against condi clear and other stuff I think even with enough stealth around. Can't know until we'd see it play out though, so I could be totally wrong.

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> @"kash.9213" said:

 

> I feel like CnD is enough for stealth and would rather be able to intercept a teammate being stomped or pull myself out of an angry blob without Shadowstep always being on cd when I actually need it. I get that the kit doesn't technically need it, but a build with d/d ends up demanding it regardless of how creative we get with traits and all that. Inf signet is going to compete for a slot against condi clear and other stuff I think even with enough stealth around. Can't know until we'd see it play out though, so I could be totally wrong.

 

Okay here's the thing which I'm pissed off about with Thief players and their "worries"

**Why do Thief players always look at builds thinking they are entitled to get out of jail free cards which erases their mistakes?**

 

People cry hard after SB 5 nerf, because that's one gtfo card lost, people cry after Stab was removed from Bladestorm because that's another aspect of their gtfo card lost.

 

What's there to think about regarding Inf Signet in exchange for Agility Signet? Even with busted sigils like Cleansing to be used? Is that truly a problem worth worrying about?

 

What about using Staff Vault to peel yurself out of Zergs?

Like that's essentially an evade baked into a 600 range jump.

That's not good enough for yu Thieves?

 

Literally could just run D/D with Damage Sigils, and Staff with Cleansing/Energy, coupled with Dash, and yu have yurself a pretty mobile build which can escape anything.

Only thing yu can no longer do, is port up cliffs, but wait, people are definitely gonna hint to me that it's somehow Thieves' RIGHT and THEY DESERVE to port up cliffs.

 

Do I need to teach Thieves their own arsenal after being stuck spamming D/P stealth and Shortbow 5 for nearly 4 years?

 

 

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> D/D 3 :

> Triple Trouble

> Disappear and strike rapidly in a Triangular AoE.

>

> Ini cost : 5

> Evade : 1/2s

> Triangular AoE : 300-300-300 centered on the Thief when cast

> Targets : 5

> Hits 3 times

> Applies 2 Stacks of Bleed per hit

 

Lost me at "triangular aoe **centered on [caster]**".

 

> **Why tho?**

> Dagger needs some cleave.

>

> If Dagger/Pistol won't provide this cleave, then I would like Dagger/Dagger to provide the cleave instead.

 

But then again I also don't like the "why?" justification, because I disagree that every weapon should be able to "check all the boxes" in its usabilility/utility. Dagger clearly doesn't need some extended cleave to have a purpose.

 

> **But why a Triangular AoE**[...centered on caster]**?**

 

Again: yuck.

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

>

> > I feel like CnD is enough for stealth and would rather be able to intercept a teammate being stomped or pull myself out of an angry blob without Shadowstep always being on cd when I actually need it. I get that the kit doesn't technically need it, but a build with d/d ends up demanding it regardless of how creative we get with traits and all that. Inf signet is going to compete for a slot against condi clear and other stuff I think even with enough stealth around. Can't know until we'd see it play out though, so I could be totally wrong.

>

> Okay here's the thing which I'm pissed off about with Thief players and their "worries"

> **Why do Thief players always look at builds thinking they are entitled to get out of jail free cards which erases their mistakes?**

>

> People cry hard after SB 5 nerf, because that's one gtfo card lost, people cry after Stab was removed from Bladestorm because that's another aspect of their gtfo card lost.

>

> What's there to think about regarding Inf Signet in exchange for Agility Signet? Even with busted sigils like Cleansing to be used? Is that truly a problem worth worrying about?

>

> What about using Staff Vault to peel yurself out of Zergs?

> Like that's essentially an evade baked into a 600 range jump.

> That's not good enough for yu Thieves?

>

> Literally could just run D/D with Damage Sigils, and Staff with Cleansing/Energy, coupled with Dash, and yu have yurself a pretty mobile build which can escape anything.

> Only thing yu can no longer do, is port up cliffs, but wait, people are definitely gonna hint to me that it's somehow Thieves' RIGHT and THEY DESERVE to port up cliffs.

>

> Do I need to teach Thieves their own arsenal after being stuck spamming D/P stealth and Shortbow 5 for nearly 4 years?

>

>

 

It's not about erasing mistakes, it's about having a kit that can hang with other builds and doesn't let your team down too much. It's not a problem to worry about if you don't want to, but are you or anyone else playing dagger/dagger a lot right now? You can make up the stealth with DE-Meld or something pretty easily which wouldn't even really be needed with CnD. I know worrying over a utility slot sounds dumb but you're likely to end up worrying over it for a days if you really try to make dagger/dagger work and not in a yolo gimmick kind of way until you drop it and go back to something else, even with another source of stealth.

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> @"Sobx.1758" said:

 

> But then again I also don't like the "why?" justification, because I disagree that every weapon should be able to "check all the boxes" in its usabilility/utility. Dagger clearly doesn't need some extended cleave to have a purpose.

 

But D/D clearly needs more usage, and a cleave would fit the bill.

S/D has no Cleave.

S/P has a pretty nice Cleave but is a terrible PvE loadout, no one uses it for Raid/Fracts

 

Why not give D/D a strong cleave so that it has more use in PvE than CnD > Backstab?

Having more options than just Staff DD in PvE could be nice yu know, it's called having build variety.

 

Centered around caster thing isn't hard to imagine.

Just think a 0.5 cast time which cleaves an AoE around the Thief while they evade.

Simple, nothing fancy.

 

Triangle AoE is for flavour, yu can close an eye and ignore it if yu want.

 

 

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

>

> > But then again I also don't like the "why?" justification, because I disagree that every weapon should be able to "check all the boxes" in its usabilility/utility. Dagger clearly doesn't need some extended cleave to have a purpose.

>

> But D/D clearly needs more usage, and a cleave would fit the bill.

 

Does it? It's supposed to be filling the role of a gimmicky single target assassin and that's mostly what it does for people that look for that.

 

> S/D has no Cleave.

 

What are you answering to?

Also AA chain cleaves. And so does the first part of S/D 3. Soooo...

 

> S/P has a pretty nice Cleave but is a terrible PvE loadout, no one uses it for Raid/Fracts

 

Nah, it's not. Nobody use it for raid/fracts because people use optimal ones, not sure what point you're trying to make here, but not being meta in raiding doesn't make it "terrible in pve".

 

> Why not give D/D a strong cleave so that it has more use in PvE than CnD > Backstab?

 

Pretty sure I already answered to this, not sure which part is unclear:

*because I disagree that every weapon should be able to "check all the boxes" in its usabilility/utility. Dagger clearly doesn't need some extended cleave to have a purpose.*

 

It can already be used for single target dmg, not sure why it would need to do everything.

 

>yu know

 

I don't understand.

 

> Centered around caster thing isn't hard to imagine.

> Just think a 0.5 cast time which cleaves an AoE around the Thief while they evade.

> Simple, nothing fancy.

 

Oh, there might have been some misunderstanding here. When I said "lost me at..." I didn't mean that I somehow can't imagine what it does/how it look or something along these lines. I mean that it's the type of targetting/damaging area that's just awful and I don't like it at all.

 

>Triangle AoE is for flavour, yu can close an eye and ignore it if yu want.

 

It's not a flavor, it's a significant change of how the skill hits which is inconsistent depending on the direction you're facing. Not sure how anyone's supposed to ignore it.

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

>

> > But then again I also don't like the "why?" justification, because I disagree that every weapon should be able to "check all the boxes" in its usabilility/utility. Dagger clearly doesn't need some extended cleave to have a purpose.

>

> But D/D clearly needs more usage, and a cleave would fit the bill.

> S/D has no Cleave.

> S/P has a pretty nice Cleave but is a terrible PvE loadout, no one uses it for Raid/Fracts

>

> Why not give D/D a strong cleave so that it has more use in PvE than CnD > Backstab?

> Having more options than just Staff DD in PvE could be nice yu know, it's called having build variety.

>

> Centered around caster thing isn't hard to imagine.

> Just think a 0.5 cast time which cleaves an AoE around the Thief while they evade.

> Simple, nothing fancy.

>

> Triangle AoE is for flavour, yu can close an eye and ignore it if yu want.

>

>

 

A stronger cleave would be alright, and since you put it in the dual wield slot it won't break other builds, but it still might gas out when extended like staff does. If I could torment everyone I cleave that would help me land some stuff before everyone scatters and I'd have to burn utility cd's again. Part of what makes d/d kind of stale right now is that there's not many secondary mods going off to synergize with except maybe steal health on blind from CnD if you traited in SA.

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

>

> > I'd be cool with that if there were a secondary channeled mode of it that turned it into a faster roll on the ground for about 900 distance but take out damage or something. That kit is a pain to make work, there's always some big compromise in traits or utility that just doesn't warrant it over other kits and builds.

>

> Honestly?

> The **problem people have** with Dagger/Dagger isn't mobility at all, which I've also considered so in the past.

>

> It's the inability to access Stealth without hitting a target.

>

> D/P is just all the wonderful things : can Access Stealth anywhere and has a 900 range gap closer, and the gap closer does do some respectable damage.

>

> I don't really wish to see D/D become something to "compete with D/P" in the same aspects, but I rather D/D be more supportive of a Melee fighter style, with Cleaves etc.

> It's not like they have no mobility, people have been using Heartseeker spam to move around for awhile now.

> And besides, no one is stopping Thief from using Shadowstep Signet, which thieves have been using back in the old days to gap close from 2000 range away.

>

> Thieves could definitely use a good cleave for pve and wvw anyway.

>

> Here's another fun idea though, which I know all Thieves will reject with their life :

> This new cleave skill I've proposed replaces Heartseeker as Dagger 2, and Heartseeker becomes Dagger/Dagger 3

> Goodbye D/P

>

> #;9

>

>

 

6k hours on power D/D in WvW here. Since 2012, only to quit for Reaper.

No, the problem is pretty much mobility and nothing but. They have no ability to rework any other skill, since they can't rework HS for D/P or give DDagger mobility due to it being OP with P/D Shadow Strike.

 

You could literally make DB deal no damage, provide no condition damage, no cleave, and no evade, and just make the skill a copy of the teleport on Shadow Shot and the kit would be miles more capable than any suggestion of giving it damage and evasion.

 

The current game-state mandates all melee-only kits have strong mobility, and D/D has among the weakest mobility options in the game and no innate defense or means of engaging against ranged attackers, strong disengage, combo AoE damage, or pb/AoE CC. The kit also generally just has low damage across the board and worse spike than most other classes' stronger builds.

 

The counter to D/D is just to wait for the steal+CnD or dodge the precast CnD+Steal and nuke your feet and it just dies. If it can't get CnD off, it has no damage and can't mitigate targeting, if it can't get revealed, it has no defense in SA to keep itself mitigating incoming hits. Everything hinges on CnD landing and your opponent doing nothing but standing in place not readying their counterburst or dodging the backstab.

 

Here's your fix:

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Needs a rework. Fixed-distance dash evade 600-900 units, bleeds single-target in larger stacks at the end of the movement so that it won't reveal if used as defense while in stealth (like it currently does which actively works against power D/D). Can't be spammed this way for damage since you'll always be moving away and then dealing the damage, and encourages better spacing and non-spam by condi builds, while providing better mobility and fixes a lot of problems with escapees and disengage potential with power builds, and gets synergy with CnD for the condi variant.

> Drop the cost to 3 due to slightly higher dependence on CnD for optimized damage and lack of spammable PbAoE damage, since it no longer becomes a viable damage source like FS nor a true disengage like IS/IR on S/D, and this can keep condi playing in the same style as power by having it use CnD to reposition/gain distance, and strike again for the fixed-distance strike.

> With this, condi D/D now requires more skill and active initiative management, and now you've got a consistent performer across power/condi and D/D actually has some synergy and value across its skills for both builds. Power gets buffed in mobility and sustain which it desperately needs.

> Been saying this for years. ANet won't do it because it was a fan-loved GW1 skill that was super strong. Sad truth.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1251478#Comment_1251478

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> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

 

> > Needs a rework. Fixed-distance dash evade 600-900 units, bleeds single-target in larger stacks at the end of the movement so that it won't reveal if used as defense while in stealth (like it currently does which actively works against power D/D). Can't be spammed this way for damage since you'll always be moving away and then dealing the damage, and encourages better spacing and non-spam by condi builds, while providing better mobility and fixes a lot of problems with escapees and disengage potential with power builds, and gets synergy with CnD for the condi variant.

> > Drop the cost to 3 due to slightly higher dependence on CnD for optimized damage and lack of spammable PbAoE damage, since it no longer becomes a viable damage source like FS nor a true disengage like IS/IR on S/D, and this can keep condi playing in the same style as power by having it use CnD to reposition/gain distance, and strike again for the fixed-distance strike.

> > With this, condi D/D now requires more skill and active initiative management, and now you've got a consistent performer across power/condi and D/D actually has some synergy and value across its skills for both builds. Power gets buffed in mobility and sustain which it desperately needs.

> > Been saying this for years. ANet won't do it because it was a fan-loved GW1 skill that was super strong. Sad truth.

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1251478#Comment_1251478

 

I used to make that suggestion too : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1307171#Comment_1307171

Now I'm more like, "Nah, just give D/D some good cleave, it doesn't have to be good in competitive nor compete with D/P in usage"

 

I would value D/D having better cleave for PvE usage, since even in PvE it's used probably only on like, 2 raid builds or open world.

 

 

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

>

> > > Needs a rework. Fixed-distance dash evade 600-900 units, bleeds single-target in larger stacks at the end of the movement so that it won't reveal if used as defense while in stealth (like it currently does which actively works against power D/D). Can't be spammed this way for damage since you'll always be moving away and then dealing the damage, and encourages better spacing and non-spam by condi builds, while providing better mobility and fixes a lot of problems with escapees and disengage potential with power builds, and gets synergy with CnD for the condi variant.

> > > Drop the cost to 3 due to slightly higher dependence on CnD for optimized damage and lack of spammable PbAoE damage, since it no longer becomes a viable damage source like FS nor a true disengage like IS/IR on S/D, and this can keep condi playing in the same style as power by having it use CnD to reposition/gain distance, and strike again for the fixed-distance strike.

> > > With this, condi D/D now requires more skill and active initiative management, and now you've got a consistent performer across power/condi and D/D actually has some synergy and value across its skills for both builds. Power gets buffed in mobility and sustain which it desperately needs.

> > > Been saying this for years. ANet won't do it because it was a fan-loved GW1 skill that was super strong. Sad truth.

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1251478#Comment_1251478

>

> I used to make that suggestion too : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1307171#Comment_1307171

> Now I'm more like, "Nah, just give D/D some good cleave, it doesn't have to be good in competitive nor compete with D/P in usage"

>

> I would value D/D having better cleave for PvE usage, since even in PvE it's used probably only on like, 2 raid builds or open world.

>

>

 

Why? We have S/P for cleave.

Sacrificing a kit to be absolutely worthless in the competitive modes is bad design. If thief needs more cleave options, buff S/x's AA for PvE and take the right tool for the job instead of suggesting gutting something else to fill a niche purpose.

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> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

 

> Why? We have S/P for cleave.

> Sacrificing a kit to be absolutely worthless in the competitive modes is bad design. If thief needs more cleave options, buff S/x's AA for PvE and take the right tool for the job instead of suggesting gutting something else to fill a niche purpose.

 

I wouldn't consider an AoE cleave with an evade baked into it "worthless for competitive modes"

That's like everything yu can ask for to use for team fighting downed cleaves, and since it hits 5, yu could cleave really nicely.

 

And yur treating this topic as though competitive is all that matters.

 

But yea, would be nice of Sword was buffed for PvE.

And what do yu mean gutting?

Yur telling me people use Death Blossom seriously on a Power build?

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"Vecuu.2018" said:

> > Don't take my Death Blossom!

> > How else am I supposed to play evasion condi thief in WvW?

>

> If yu wanna be food, there are easier ways to be food than D/D Condi Thief.

>

 

It's a niche build that's a lot of fun to play.

 

Soloing t3 camps.

Satisfying duelist that most roamers can't fight very effectively.

Tanky enough to zerg fight and has enough AoE cripple to disrupt and cut off tails while fishing for stealth-stomps.

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

>

> > Why? We have S/P for cleave.

> > Sacrificing a kit to be absolutely worthless in the competitive modes is bad design. If thief needs more cleave options, buff S/x's AA for PvE and take the right tool for the job instead of suggesting gutting something else to fill a niche purpose.

>

> I wouldn't consider an AoE cleave with an evade baked into it "worthless for competitive modes"

> That's like everything yu can ask for to use for team fighting downed cleaves, and since it hits 5, yu could cleave really nicely.

>

> And yur treating this topic as though competitive is all that matters.

>

> But yea, would be nice of Sword was buffed for PvE.

> And what do yu mean gutting?

> Yur telling me people use Death Blossom seriously on a Power build?

 

I'm saying you'd be sinking any hope for D/D to actually be any good for competitive.

Your logic of balancing for PvE is no different than mine to balance for PvP.

 

The thing is, you can buff numbers in PvE and nobody cares. The mobs won't get upset and claim cheese or foul play, that your build is OP or FoTM, or whatever. D/D is a single-target kit, though. The point is tempo-driven, repeatable, quick bursts of damage to a single target.

You can buff numbers all you want in the competitive modes but it'll be either OP or still trash because DB and the lack of mobility D/D has is the reason the kit is trash and always has been. Design matters more in competitive, and the reason why D/D is bad in competitive is solely because its design is bad.

 

Tweak numbers for PvE, tweak functionality for sPvP/WvW.

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> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

 

> The thing is, you can buff numbers in PvE and nobody cares. The mobs won't get upset and claim cheese or foul play, that your build is OP or FoTM, or whatever. D/D is a single-target kit, though. The point is tempo-driven, repeatable, quick bursts of damage to a single target.

> You can buff numbers all you want in the competitive modes but it'll be either OP or still trash because DB and the lack of mobility D/D has is the reason the kit is trash and always has been. Design matters more in competitive, and the reason why D/D is bad in competitive is solely because its design is bad.

 

I'll say MH Dagger is a Single target tool, Dagger/Dagger doesn't have to be.

Offhand Dagger 4 does "cleave" through its bounces, that's hardly strictly single target design no?

 

D/P drives Dagger into a more single target focused kit, with a single target gap closer, pistol 4 single target disrupt, and pistol 5 is kinda a general use utility which is useful anywhere.

 

Why not move D/D into the direction of brawling, and of close quarters combat, over strictly single target design which D/P already offers.

 

I know what D/D users want : yu guys just want a reliable gap closer so yu can pull off CnD Backstabs easier, but wanna do so without using a slot for Inf Signet or gap closing with Heartseeker. (which, surprise surprise, all COST SOMETHING)

 

Considering the fact that Shadowshot can already do just as much damage as a Backstab in competitive these days, what's stopping people from just continuing with D/P then, since Shadowshot is just way more reliable, plus yu have consistent Stealth access with D/P 5 >2

 

Do yu guys really just wanna move D/D into the same direction as D/P?

I don't think it's really healthy for Thief kit to have multiple forms of the same sort of deal, already ignoring the fact a good amount of thief skills are rarely used at all because of their Ini system just letting them use whatever they want as much as they want depending on the situation.

 

 

 

 

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

>

> > The thing is, you can buff numbers in PvE and nobody cares. The mobs won't get upset and claim cheese or foul play, that your build is OP or FoTM, or whatever. D/D is a single-target kit, though. The point is tempo-driven, repeatable, quick bursts of damage to a single target.

> > You can buff numbers all you want in the competitive modes but it'll be either OP or still trash because DB and the lack of mobility D/D has is the reason the kit is trash and always has been. Design matters more in competitive, and the reason why D/D is bad in competitive is solely because its design is bad.

>

> I'll say MH Dagger is a Single target tool, Dagger/Dagger doesn't have to be.

> Offhand Dagger 4 does "cleave" through its bounces, that's hardly strictly single target design no?

>

> D/P drives Dagger into a more single target focused kit, with a single target gap closer, pistol 4 single target disrupt, and pistol 5 is kinda a general use utility which is useful anywhere.

>

> Why not move D/D into the direction of brawling, and of close quarters combat, over strictly single target design which D/P already offers.

>

> I know what D/D users want : yu guys just want a reliable gap closer so yu can pull off CnD Backstabs easier, but wanna do so without using a slot for Inf Signet or gap closing with Heartseeker. (which, surprise surprise, all COST SOMETHING)

>

> Considering the fact that Shadowshot can already do just as much damage as a Backstab in competitive these days, what's stopping people from just continuing with D/P then, since Shadowshot is just way more reliable, plus yu have consistent Stealth access with D/P 5 >2

>

> Do yu guys really just wanna move D/D into the same direction as D/P?

> I don't think it's really healthy for Thief kit to have multiple forms of the same sort of deal, already ignoring the fact a good amount of thief skills are rarely used at all because of their Ini system just letting them use whatever they want as much as they want depending on the situation.

>

>

>

>

 

It could be a 900 distance roll that cleaves a path. An evade on top of that might be much so maybe let it recharge a small amount of endurance on crit or vigor. It's not about having a gap closer, it's about being able to help out a team, and that includes in pve unless you want to be a shortbow blast bot. It doesn't need to be some instant port, it just needs to allow you to budget to be able to move with a group. Try WvW d/d without a port utility, you end up just waddling over and getting there just in time to be late unless you want weapon cd more often. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just giving my opinion on what that threshold looks like in my head to let dagger/dagger keep up with other kits a little more.

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> @"kash.9213" said:

 

> It could be a 900 distance roll that cleaves a path. An evade on top of that might be much so maybe let it recharge a small amount of endurance on crit or vigor.

 

If yur talking about 400~600 range, it would still have been acceptable.

 

 

900 range evade gapcloser?

And with Endurance Regen/Vigor too?

Also deals damage?

How on earth did yu come up with this, thinking this is balanced?

 

Might as well make it 1200 range.

Nah might as well make it a shadowstep that does AoE damage at the end from 1200 range.

And also deals damage.

And also restores Ini on hit how bout it?

 

I'm giving up.

Thief mains are just irredeemable and want the world without thinking about balance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

>

> > It could be a 900 distance roll that cleaves a path. An evade on top of that might be much so maybe let it recharge a small amount of endurance on crit or vigor.

>

> If yur talking about 400~600 range, it would still have been acceptable.

>

>

> 900 range evade gapcloser?

> And with Endurance Regen/Vigor too?

> Also deals damage?

> How on earth did yu come up with this, thinking this is balanced?

>

> Might as well make it 1200 range.

> Nah might as well make it a shadowstep that does AoE damage at the end from 1200 range.

> And also deals damage.

> And also restores Ini on hit how bout it?

>

> I'm giving up.

> Thief mains are just irredeemable and want the world without thinking about balance.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

I didn't come up with it, you did. You wanted a cleave. Start big, chop it up to something launchable. You need to chill the fuck out in your responses though, no one is coming at you like that and you're not getting a grip on what people are explaining to you, politely.

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