Sobx.1758 Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 > @"kash.9213" said: > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > The thing is, you can buff numbers in PvE and nobody cares. The mobs won't get upset and claim cheese or foul play, that your build is OP or FoTM, or whatever. D/D is a single-target kit, though. The point is tempo-driven, repeatable, quick bursts of damage to a single target. > > > You can buff numbers all you want in the competitive modes but it'll be either OP or still trash because DB and the lack of mobility D/D has is the reason the kit is trash and always has been. Design matters more in competitive, and the reason why D/D is bad in competitive is solely because its design is bad. > > > > I'll say MH Dagger is a Single target tool, Dagger/Dagger doesn't have to be. > > Offhand Dagger 4 does "cleave" through its bounces, that's hardly strictly single target design no? > > > > D/P drives Dagger into a more single target focused kit, with a single target gap closer, pistol 4 single target disrupt, and pistol 5 is kinda a general use utility which is useful anywhere. > > > > Why not move D/D into the direction of brawling, and of close quarters combat, over strictly single target design which D/P already offers. > > > > I know what D/D users want : yu guys just want a reliable gap closer so yu can pull off CnD Backstabs easier, but wanna do so without using a slot for Inf Signet or gap closing with Heartseeker. (which, surprise surprise, all COST SOMETHING) > > > > Considering the fact that Shadowshot can already do just as much damage as a Backstab in competitive these days, what's stopping people from just continuing with D/P then, since Shadowshot is just way more reliable, plus yu have consistent Stealth access with D/P 5 >2 > > > > Do yu guys really just wanna move D/D into the same direction as D/P? > > I don't think it's really healthy for Thief kit to have multiple forms of the same sort of deal, already ignoring the fact a good amount of thief skills are rarely used at all because of their Ini system just letting them use whatever they want as much as they want depending on the situation. > > > > > > > > > > It could be a 900 distance roll that cleaves a path. An evade on top of that might be much so maybe let it recharge a small amount of endurance on crit or vigor. It's not about having a gap closer, it's about being able to help out a team, and that includes in pve unless you want to be a shortbow blast bot. It doesn't need to be some instant port, it just needs to allow you to budget to be able to move with a group. Try WvW d/d without a port utility, you end up just waddling over and getting there just in time to be late unless you want weapon cd more often. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just giving my opinion on what that threshold looks like in my head to let dagger/dagger keep up with other kits a little more. For what ini price? While keeping in mind sb5 is 8 ini, this one would be probably at least as much. I'd say even making it like warrior's whirlwind attack would be potentially too much unless it gets its own ability cd (but it won't, because that's not how anet wants to balance thief) or some... well, pretty oppressive ini cost. Like always with utility skills, pamability is the problem to keep in mind here. Sure, maybe it wouldn't be such a huge deal in pve if it was intended to be an aoe attack (which I still disagree with btw), but the idea of a thief zooming through mobs back-and-forth like some hyper-active evasive lawn mower just doesn't speak to me for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash.9213 Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > > > The thing is, you can buff numbers in PvE and nobody cares. The mobs won't get upset and claim cheese or foul play, that your build is OP or FoTM, or whatever. D/D is a single-target kit, though. The point is tempo-driven, repeatable, quick bursts of damage to a single target. > > > > You can buff numbers all you want in the competitive modes but it'll be either OP or still trash because DB and the lack of mobility D/D has is the reason the kit is trash and always has been. Design matters more in competitive, and the reason why D/D is bad in competitive is solely because its design is bad. > > > > > > I'll say MH Dagger is a Single target tool, Dagger/Dagger doesn't have to be. > > > Offhand Dagger 4 does "cleave" through its bounces, that's hardly strictly single target design no? > > > > > > D/P drives Dagger into a more single target focused kit, with a single target gap closer, pistol 4 single target disrupt, and pistol 5 is kinda a general use utility which is useful anywhere. > > > > > > Why not move D/D into the direction of brawling, and of close quarters combat, over strictly single target design which D/P already offers. > > > > > > I know what D/D users want : yu guys just want a reliable gap closer so yu can pull off CnD Backstabs easier, but wanna do so without using a slot for Inf Signet or gap closing with Heartseeker. (which, surprise surprise, all COST SOMETHING) > > > > > > Considering the fact that Shadowshot can already do just as much damage as a Backstab in competitive these days, what's stopping people from just continuing with D/P then, since Shadowshot is just way more reliable, plus yu have consistent Stealth access with D/P 5 >2 > > > > > > Do yu guys really just wanna move D/D into the same direction as D/P? > > > I don't think it's really healthy for Thief kit to have multiple forms of the same sort of deal, already ignoring the fact a good amount of thief skills are rarely used at all because of their Ini system just letting them use whatever they want as much as they want depending on the situation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It could be a 900 distance roll that cleaves a path. An evade on top of that might be much so maybe let it recharge a small amount of endurance on crit or vigor. It's not about having a gap closer, it's about being able to help out a team, and that includes in pve unless you want to be a shortbow blast bot. It doesn't need to be some instant port, it just needs to allow you to budget to be able to move with a group. Try WvW d/d without a port utility, you end up just waddling over and getting there just in time to be late unless you want weapon cd more often. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just giving my opinion on what that threshold looks like in my head to let dagger/dagger keep up with other kits a little more. > > For what ini price? While keeping in mind sb5 is 8 ini, this one would be probably at least as much. I'd say even making it like warrior's whirlwind attack would be potentially too much unless it gets its own ability cd (but it won't, because that's not how anet wants to balance thief) or some... well, pretty oppressive ini cost. Like always with utility skills, pamability is the problem to keep in mind here. > > Sure, maybe it wouldn't be such a huge deal in pve if it was intended to be an aoe attack (which I still disagree with btw), but the idea of a thief zooming through mobs back-and-forth like some hyper-active evasive lawn mower just doesn't speak to me for some reason. I'd rather have a roll evade than damage. I'd start a skill out with all the toppings to see what kind of stuff we can do with it then launch it with like 900 range roll with maybe a projectile block and Whirl or something or maybe 600 range with either evade or some damage or control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > The thing is, you can buff numbers in PvE and nobody cares. The mobs won't get upset and claim cheese or foul play, that your build is OP or FoTM, or whatever. D/D is a single-target kit, though. The point is tempo-driven, repeatable, quick bursts of damage to a single target. > > You can buff numbers all you want in the competitive modes but it'll be either OP or still trash because DB and the lack of mobility D/D has is the reason the kit is trash and always has been. Design matters more in competitive, and the reason why D/D is bad in competitive is solely because its design is bad. > > I'll say MH Dagger is a Single target tool, Dagger/Dagger doesn't have to be. > Offhand Dagger 4 does "cleave" through its bounces, that's hardly strictly single target design no? > > D/P drives Dagger into a more single target focused kit, with a single target gap closer, pistol 4 single target disrupt, and pistol 5 is kinda a general use utility which is useful anywhere. > > Why not move D/D into the direction of brawling, and of close quarters combat, over strictly single target design which D/P already offers. > > I know what D/D users want : yu guys just want a reliable gap closer so yu can pull off CnD Backstabs easier, but wanna do so without using a slot for Inf Signet or gap closing with Heartseeker. (which, surprise surprise, all COST SOMETHING) > > Considering the fact that Shadowshot can already do just as much damage as a Backstab in competitive these days, what's stopping people from just continuing with D/P then, since Shadowshot is just way more reliable, plus yu have consistent Stealth access with D/P 5 >2 > > Do yu guys really just wanna move D/D into the same direction as D/P? > I don't think it's really healthy for Thief kit to have multiple forms of the same sort of deal, already ignoring the fact a good amount of thief skills are rarely used at all because of their Ini system just letting them use whatever they want as much as they want depending on the situation. > > > > I'm gonna pull the Uno reverse card here. If you want a melee cleave weapon with evasion, why not just play S/P which literally does everything and more on PW? If the skill deals meaningful damage, why make it a copy of S/P which just spams 3 for cleave, anyways? If you need the evasion and rotate other skills for damage, why even ask to rework DB with its current evade? See how the logic works here? What your proposal does is bring nothing new to the thief stylistically or in terms of gameplay patterns. D/D sucks in the PvP modes because it has no mobility or ability to sustain itself well in extended melee-engages. I don't think the latter is possible without making the kit too difficult to kill when combined with something like Daredevil and otherwise not reworking all eight dagger skills and possibly other kits entirely to jive with them, all from the ground up. It makes more sense to just rework DB into something functionally usable in the competitive modes and then tweak PvE numbers. The mobility doesn't need to be as good as Shadow Shot, and it shouldn't be spammed, either, since Shadow Shot is already overloaded and deserves a damage nerf so the rest of MH dagger can be buffed. I've literally asked for that since 2012 because it chokes MH dagger out of being buffed viably. D/D would get more out of a skill acting something like Dash to both create and close space rather than just massive hard engage. I also feel like you didn't even read my initial response and ancient suggestion, because its design forces it to not be spammable and actively punishes misuse. D/D offers a unique approach to gameplay that focuses on engage committal by keeping you and your enemy fairly close. D/P is all about total resets, S/D about temporary physical spacing and re-engaging with more resources, and P/D is about kiting. The hybrid skills should reflect the combined kits they have. Look at what D/D is being compared to: D/P: Hard-**engage** and damage causing the enemy's next hit to miss. S/D: **Dodge that can't be chained** granting damage and boon denial on its second half **which can't be spammed**. P/D: Slipperiness and high-tier kiting/disengage out of melee range with **condition damage which can't be spammed/chained without other skills**. My proposal: Soft-engage or Soft-disengage with a lower-duration dodge that provides condition damage which can't be spammed unless chained with other skills. All of the skills have aspects of each other and it completes the trifecta while letting D/D actually work cohesively with the rest of the skills that are otherwise fairly disjointed in the kit. Hell, they could bump the cost to 4 at 600 range and it's still a really good skill. Slightly better per initiative in flat land speed, but slightly slower than IArrow without the vertical movement bonuses. As an aside, a significant part that makes D/D so weak is that DB reveals you if your opponent bombs their feet after CnD. The damage component can't be at the beginning of the cast or be AoE because in a multi-target environment the only answer you have is to CnD and get out. Thus, single-target damage at the end of the evade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trianox.3486 Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 I kind of like your analysis there Deceiver. Here, let me throw this: Dagger Autoattack: fine. Little low DMG for PvE, could it be boosted by 10-20%. Similar in PvP for 3rd hit only. Heartseeker : Animation is a bit clunky, but that's okay. What about getting 1, 2 and 3 stacks of bleed for 25%, 50% and 75% PvP, and 1, 3, and 5 stacks PvE, for 1.5 or 2 seconds duration. Rationale: It would provide a nice single target option for condi builds outside of DB and would give a reason to rotate between other skills, and not only meme-play-DB. Death Blossom: Increase the power coefficient, or base damage by a bit. Change skill: - A fast ground whirl 450 range in straight line, with evade and with the current damage/number of targets, followed by a flip skill with current animation but slightly faster, without evade, 2 poison and 2 torment stacks (or 2 poison 3 sec, and 6 confusion stacks 2 sec PvE, -50% duration in PvP). Dancing dagger: From 1 to 2 stacks of torment or a low duration poison (2-3 sec) for PvE with a bit of swiftness -OR- an increase of power damage with swiftness. Rationale: Right now, in PvE there are very rare occasions when it seems that it's a good idea to use it, and whenever I use it… it always feels a bit like "I should have kept that initiatives for something else more effective". The concept is interesting: hitting while escaping, or as an aggrow skill. But it feels like it could either loose damage and loose 1 initiative (therefore more utility oriented), OR keep current cost and be slightly boosted with boon or damage. Cloak and dagger: fine I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > I'd be cool with that if there were a secondary channeled mode of it that turned it into a faster roll on the ground for about 900 distance but take out damage or something. That kit is a pain to make work, there's always some big compromise in traits or utility that just doesn't warrant it over other kits and builds. > > Honestly? > The **problem people have** with Dagger/Dagger isn't mobility at all, which I've also considered so in the past. > > It's the inability to access Stealth without hitting a target. > > D/P is just all the wonderful things : can Access Stealth anywhere and has a 900 range gap closer, and the gap closer does do some respectable damage. > > I don't really wish to see D/D become something to "compete with D/P" in the same aspects, but I rather D/D be more supportive of a Melee fighter style, with Cleaves etc. > It's not like they have no mobility, people have been using Heartseeker spam to move around for awhile now. > And besides, no one is stopping Thief from using Shadowstep Signet, which thieves have been using back in the old days to gap close from 2000 range away. > > Thieves could definitely use a good cleave for pve and wvw anyway. > > Here's another fun idea though, which I know all Thieves will reject with their life : > **This new cleave skill I've proposed replaces Heartseeker as Dagger 2, and Heartseeker becomes Dagger/Dagger 3** > Goodbye D/P > > #;9 > > I actually do think that they ought to remove either the leap from heartseeker, or make leaps through smoke fields do something other than stealth. If they did that, D/P SA DD and permastealth DE would be a LOT more manageable, and it would pave the way for buffs that don't just make those two specs stupidly OP in return. D/P is perfectly viable when played with less stealth access (HoT DA/trick/DD D/P meta for instance), so it's not like losing that will kill the kit outright. On topic; in WvW, D/D either needs the damage to be an assassin set, or it needs more mobility somehow to make it better in a longer fight. At the moment it doesn't have the damage, and D/P outclasses it both in movement and in defensive potential through blinds and interrupts. It had a niche but it has lost it through progressive nerfs over the years, it either needs damage nerfs reverted or it needs a rework. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > > > I'd be cool with that if there were a secondary channeled mode of it that turned it into a faster roll on the ground for about 900 distance but take out damage or something. That kit is a pain to make work, there's always some big compromise in traits or utility that just doesn't warrant it over other kits and builds. > > > > Honestly? > > The **problem people have** with Dagger/Dagger isn't mobility at all, which I've also considered so in the past. > > > > It's the inability to access Stealth without hitting a target. > > > > D/P is just all the wonderful things : can Access Stealth anywhere and has a 900 range gap closer, and the gap closer does do some respectable damage. > > > > I don't really wish to see D/D become something to "compete with D/P" in the same aspects, but I rather D/D be more supportive of a Melee fighter style, with Cleaves etc. > > It's not like they have no mobility, people have been using Heartseeker spam to move around for awhile now. > > And besides, no one is stopping Thief from using Shadowstep Signet, which thieves have been using back in the old days to gap close from 2000 range away. > > > > Thieves could definitely use a good cleave for pve and wvw anyway. > > > > Here's another fun idea though, which I know all Thieves will reject with their life : > > **This new cleave skill I've proposed replaces Heartseeker as Dagger 2, and Heartseeker becomes Dagger/Dagger 3** > > Goodbye D/P > > > > #;9 > > > > > > I actually do think that they ought to remove either the leap from heartseeker, or make leaps through smoke fields do something other than stealth. If they did that, D/P SA DD and permastealth DE would be a LOT more manageable, and it would pave the way for buffs that don't just make those two specs stupidly OP in return. D/P is perfectly viable when played with less stealth access (HoT DA/trick/DD D/P meta for instance), so it's not like losing that will kill the kit outright. > They would be unplayable. D/P in HoT worked without stealth because it had pulmonary impact to work off of, a strong trait incentivising headshots. That trait is currently unplayable. So remove the leap finisher, and D/P just becomes a vastly inferior S/D weaponset, not that that one is good to begin with. It *will* kill the kit outright. > On topic; in WvW, D/D either needs the damage to be an assassin set, or it needs more mobility somehow to make it better in a longer fight. At the moment it doesn't have the damage, and D/P outclasses it both in movement and in defensive potential through blinds and interrupts. It had a niche but it has lost it through progressive nerfs over the years, it either needs damage nerfs reverted or it needs a rework. If Death Blossom was less clunky (or expensive) and had some damage the power build could use, it would be a much better defensive set than D/P. Evades are a lot more valuable than blinds and interrupts for defense. It never really had a niche precisely because death blossom sucks and because it lacks mobility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > > > > > I'd be cool with that if there were a secondary channeled mode of it that turned it into a faster roll on the ground for about 900 distance but take out damage or something. That kit is a pain to make work, there's always some big compromise in traits or utility that just doesn't warrant it over other kits and builds. > > > > > > Honestly? > > > The **problem people have** with Dagger/Dagger isn't mobility at all, which I've also considered so in the past. > > > > > > It's the inability to access Stealth without hitting a target. > > > > > > D/P is just all the wonderful things : can Access Stealth anywhere and has a 900 range gap closer, and the gap closer does do some respectable damage. > > > > > > I don't really wish to see D/D become something to "compete with D/P" in the same aspects, but I rather D/D be more supportive of a Melee fighter style, with Cleaves etc. > > > It's not like they have no mobility, people have been using Heartseeker spam to move around for awhile now. > > > And besides, no one is stopping Thief from using Shadowstep Signet, which thieves have been using back in the old days to gap close from 2000 range away. > > > > > > Thieves could definitely use a good cleave for pve and wvw anyway. > > > > > > Here's another fun idea though, which I know all Thieves will reject with their life : > > > **This new cleave skill I've proposed replaces Heartseeker as Dagger 2, and Heartseeker becomes Dagger/Dagger 3** > > > Goodbye D/P > > > > > > #;9 > > > > > > > > > > I actually do think that they ought to remove either the leap from heartseeker, or make leaps through smoke fields do something other than stealth. If they did that, D/P SA DD and permastealth DE would be a LOT more manageable, and it would pave the way for buffs that don't just make those two specs stupidly OP in return. D/P is perfectly viable when played with less stealth access (HoT DA/trick/DD D/P meta for instance), so it's not like losing that will kill the kit outright. > > > > They would be unplayable. D/P in HoT worked without stealth because it had pulmonary impact to work off of, a strong trait incentivising headshots. That trait is currently unplayable. So remove the leap finisher, and D/P just becomes a vastly inferior S/D weaponset, not that that one is good to begin with. It *will* kill the kit outright. > > > On topic; in WvW, D/D either needs the damage to be an assassin set, or it needs more mobility somehow to make it better in a longer fight. At the moment it doesn't have the damage, and D/P outclasses it both in movement and in defensive potential through blinds and interrupts. It had a niche but it has lost it through progressive nerfs over the years, it either needs damage nerfs reverted or it needs a rework. > > If Death Blossom was less clunky (or expensive) and had some damage the power build could use, it would be a much better defensive set than D/P. Evades are a lot more valuable than blinds and interrupts for defense. It never really had a niche precisely because death blossom sucks and because it lacks mobility. That was the point of me saying that it'd pave the way for buffs without making D/P even more OP. Stuff like making PI actually useable was part of what I meant by that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash.9213 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > > > > > > > I'd be cool with that if there were a secondary channeled mode of it that turned it into a faster roll on the ground for about 900 distance but take out damage or something. That kit is a pain to make work, there's always some big compromise in traits or utility that just doesn't warrant it over other kits and builds. > > > > > > > > Honestly? > > > > The **problem people have** with Dagger/Dagger isn't mobility at all, which I've also considered so in the past. > > > > > > > > It's the inability to access Stealth without hitting a target. > > > > > > > > D/P is just all the wonderful things : can Access Stealth anywhere and has a 900 range gap closer, and the gap closer does do some respectable damage. > > > > > > > > I don't really wish to see D/D become something to "compete with D/P" in the same aspects, but I rather D/D be more supportive of a Melee fighter style, with Cleaves etc. > > > > It's not like they have no mobility, people have been using Heartseeker spam to move around for awhile now. > > > > And besides, no one is stopping Thief from using Shadowstep Signet, which thieves have been using back in the old days to gap close from 2000 range away. > > > > > > > > Thieves could definitely use a good cleave for pve and wvw anyway. > > > > > > > > Here's another fun idea though, which I know all Thieves will reject with their life : > > > > **This new cleave skill I've proposed replaces Heartseeker as Dagger 2, and Heartseeker becomes Dagger/Dagger 3** > > > > Goodbye D/P > > > > > > > > #;9 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually do think that they ought to remove either the leap from heartseeker, or make leaps through smoke fields do something other than stealth. If they did that, D/P SA DD and permastealth DE would be a LOT more manageable, and it would pave the way for buffs that don't just make those two specs stupidly OP in return. D/P is perfectly viable when played with less stealth access (HoT DA/trick/DD D/P meta for instance), so it's not like losing that will kill the kit outright. > > > > > > > They would be unplayable. D/P in HoT worked without stealth because it had pulmonary impact to work off of, a strong trait incentivising headshots. That trait is currently unplayable. So remove the leap finisher, and D/P just becomes a vastly inferior S/D weaponset, not that that one is good to begin with. It *will* kill the kit outright. > > > > > On topic; in WvW, D/D either needs the damage to be an assassin set, or it needs more mobility somehow to make it better in a longer fight. At the moment it doesn't have the damage, and D/P outclasses it both in movement and in defensive potential through blinds and interrupts. It had a niche but it has lost it through progressive nerfs over the years, it either needs damage nerfs reverted or it needs a rework. > > > > If Death Blossom was less clunky (or expensive) and had some damage the power build could use, it would be a much better defensive set than D/P. Evades are a lot more valuable than blinds and interrupts for defense. It never really had a niche precisely because death blossom sucks and because it lacks mobility. > > That was the point of me saying that it'd pave the way for buffs without making D/P even more OP. Stuff like making PI actually useable was part of what I meant by that. I could go with a quick non stackable stealth comparable to the Silent Scope duration for stealth off of leaps, or they could bake more stealth into skills or traits like Silent Scope dodge or Cloak and Dagger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yasai.3549 Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 > @"kash.9213" said: > I could go with a quick non stackable stealth comparable to the Silent Scope duration for stealth off of leaps, or they could bake more stealth into skills or traits like Silent Scope dodge or Cloak and Dagger. Would much prefer that there are two versions of Stealth, similar to Swiftness and Superspeed. Stealth from Combos and Traits will fall under "Stealthed" which is stackable but removed immediately upon getting hit. Stealth from cooldown based utilities will fall under "Cloaked" which is immune to Revealed and non stackable. This will make Shadowmeld weaker with this kinda change and maybe then it could be reworked, but that's another topic. Ps: please go back to talking about Dagger/Dagger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 > @"kash.9213" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > > > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I'd be cool with that if there were a secondary channeled mode of it that turned it into a faster roll on the ground for about 900 distance but take out damage or something. That kit is a pain to make work, there's always some big compromise in traits or utility that just doesn't warrant it over other kits and builds. > > > > > > > > > > Honestly? > > > > > The **problem people have** with Dagger/Dagger isn't mobility at all, which I've also considered so in the past. > > > > > > > > > > It's the inability to access Stealth without hitting a target. > > > > > > > > > > D/P is just all the wonderful things : can Access Stealth anywhere and has a 900 range gap closer, and the gap closer does do some respectable damage. > > > > > > > > > > I don't really wish to see D/D become something to "compete with D/P" in the same aspects, but I rather D/D be more supportive of a Melee fighter style, with Cleaves etc. > > > > > It's not like they have no mobility, people have been using Heartseeker spam to move around for awhile now. > > > > > And besides, no one is stopping Thief from using Shadowstep Signet, which thieves have been using back in the old days to gap close from 2000 range away. > > > > > > > > > > Thieves could definitely use a good cleave for pve and wvw anyway. > > > > > > > > > > Here's another fun idea though, which I know all Thieves will reject with their life : > > > > > **This new cleave skill I've proposed replaces Heartseeker as Dagger 2, and Heartseeker becomes Dagger/Dagger 3** > > > > > Goodbye D/P > > > > > > > > > > #;9 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually do think that they ought to remove either the leap from heartseeker, or make leaps through smoke fields do something other than stealth. If they did that, D/P SA DD and permastealth DE would be a LOT more manageable, and it would pave the way for buffs that don't just make those two specs stupidly OP in return. D/P is perfectly viable when played with less stealth access (HoT DA/trick/DD D/P meta for instance), so it's not like losing that will kill the kit outright. > > > > > > > > > > They would be unplayable. D/P in HoT worked without stealth because it had pulmonary impact to work off of, a strong trait incentivising headshots. That trait is currently unplayable. So remove the leap finisher, and D/P just becomes a vastly inferior S/D weaponset, not that that one is good to begin with. It *will* kill the kit outright. > > > > > > > On topic; in WvW, D/D either needs the damage to be an assassin set, or it needs more mobility somehow to make it better in a longer fight. At the moment it doesn't have the damage, and D/P outclasses it both in movement and in defensive potential through blinds and interrupts. It had a niche but it has lost it through progressive nerfs over the years, it either needs damage nerfs reverted or it needs a rework. > > > > > > If Death Blossom was less clunky (or expensive) and had some damage the power build could use, it would be a much better defensive set than D/P. Evades are a lot more valuable than blinds and interrupts for defense. It never really had a niche precisely because death blossom sucks and because it lacks mobility. > > > > That was the point of me saying that it'd pave the way for buffs without making D/P even more OP. Stuff like making PI actually useable was part of what I meant by that. > > I could go with a quick non stackable stealth comparable to the Silent Scope duration for stealth off of leaps, or they could bake more stealth into skills or traits like Silent Scope dodge or Cloak and Dagger. That's the idea; less stealth on initiative skills that don't require interaction with an enemy (like heartseeker), more stealth on traits/skills with tweakable cooldowns and on skills like cloak and dagger that need to hit something. The idea is that you'd have roughly the same access to stealth for an engage and during combat to set up sneak attacks through traits and skills, but to remove some of the cheese factor from D/P by making stealth less spammable and forcing you to use multiple sources of stealth. You'd still be able to stealth allies with blasts (or yourself if out of combat via weapon swap), and you'd still be able to use black powder, blinding powder then cluster bomb to stealth to move around the map in PvP to hide your rotations, so it ought to be doable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > > > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > > > > > > > I'd be cool with that if there were a secondary channeled mode of it that turned it into a faster roll on the ground for about 900 distance but take out damage or something. That kit is a pain to make work, there's always some big compromise in traits or utility that just doesn't warrant it over other kits and builds. > > > > > > > > Honestly? > > > > The **problem people have** with Dagger/Dagger isn't mobility at all, which I've also considered so in the past. > > > > > > > > It's the inability to access Stealth without hitting a target. > > > > > > > > D/P is just all the wonderful things : can Access Stealth anywhere and has a 900 range gap closer, and the gap closer does do some respectable damage. > > > > > > > > I don't really wish to see D/D become something to "compete with D/P" in the same aspects, but I rather D/D be more supportive of a Melee fighter style, with Cleaves etc. > > > > It's not like they have no mobility, people have been using Heartseeker spam to move around for awhile now. > > > > And besides, no one is stopping Thief from using Shadowstep Signet, which thieves have been using back in the old days to gap close from 2000 range away. > > > > > > > > Thieves could definitely use a good cleave for pve and wvw anyway. > > > > > > > > Here's another fun idea though, which I know all Thieves will reject with their life : > > > > **This new cleave skill I've proposed replaces Heartseeker as Dagger 2, and Heartseeker becomes Dagger/Dagger 3** > > > > Goodbye D/P > > > > > > > > #;9 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually do think that they ought to remove either the leap from heartseeker, or make leaps through smoke fields do something other than stealth. If they did that, D/P SA DD and permastealth DE would be a LOT more manageable, and it would pave the way for buffs that don't just make those two specs stupidly OP in return. D/P is perfectly viable when played with less stealth access (HoT DA/trick/DD D/P meta for instance), so it's not like losing that will kill the kit outright. > > > > > > > They would be unplayable. D/P in HoT worked without stealth because it had pulmonary impact to work off of, a strong trait incentivising headshots. That trait is currently unplayable. So remove the leap finisher, and D/P just becomes a vastly inferior S/D weaponset, not that that one is good to begin with. It *will* kill the kit outright. > > > > > On topic; in WvW, D/D either needs the damage to be an assassin set, or it needs more mobility somehow to make it better in a longer fight. At the moment it doesn't have the damage, and D/P outclasses it both in movement and in defensive potential through blinds and interrupts. It had a niche but it has lost it through progressive nerfs over the years, it either needs damage nerfs reverted or it needs a rework. > > > > If Death Blossom was less clunky (or expensive) and had some damage the power build could use, it would be a much better defensive set than D/P. Evades are a lot more valuable than blinds and interrupts for defense. It never really had a niche precisely because death blossom sucks and because it lacks mobility. > > That was the point of me saying that it'd pave the way for buffs without making D/P even more OP. Stuff like making PI actually useable was part of what I meant by that. They could buff PI *literally right now*, and it wouldnt break anything. Theyre not avoiding buffing PI because theyre worried it would make D/P stronger, theyre not buffing it because they want it to be unplayable. Thats the reason it got nerfed in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yasai.3549 Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > They could buff PI *literally right now*, and it wouldnt break anything. Theyre not avoiding buffing PI because theyre worried it would make D/P stronger, theyre not buffing it because they want it to be unplayable. Thats the reason it got nerfed in the first place. Highly doubt that devs nerfed it for malicious reasons such as "making it unplayable" They probably nerfed it to make the other options, Staff Master and Havoc Specialist look more appealing. But as usual, Anet fashion, they overnerf so they can essentially ignore and treat the "problem" as dead. Guardians also have a trait which is similarly dead (Shattered Aegis) It's just Anet's balance laziness as usual. Ticks me off tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > They could buff PI *literally right now*, and it wouldnt break anything. Theyre not avoiding buffing PI because theyre worried it would make D/P stronger, theyre not buffing it because they want it to be unplayable. Thats the reason it got nerfed in the first place. > > Highly doubt that devs nerfed it for malicious reasons such as "making it unplayable" > They probably nerfed it to make the other options, Staff Master and Havoc Specialist look more appealing. > Frankly its the only explanation I can see. Staff Master is only used by Staff (duh), and was the only real pick for Staff. Havoc Specialist was already the standard choice. The only build that used PI at that point was the (no longer good) S/P thief, and even they were switching to Havoc Specialist as far as I can tell. So no, that wasnt why they nerfed it. Im pretty sure the point *was* to make it unplayable. If I had to wager a guess, it was nerfed as part of the "CC shouldnt do damage" thing. > But as usual, Anet fashion, they overnerf so they can essentially ignore and treat the "problem" as dead. > Guardians also have a trait which is similarly dead (Shattered Aegis) > Any nerf was an overnerf, nerfing it at all was the issue. > It's just Anet's balance laziness as usual. Ticks me off tbh. I wouldnt call it laziness, this was malicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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