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Thief and WvW (Need Nerf)


mrt.7813

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> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> >

> > > No offence, but that would make malicious backstab insanely OP if sleight of hand, bountiful theft and mug all went off when it hit. There would also be virtually no reason to use mark if the damage on the non-mark boosted sneak attacks was sufficient, and if you needed to mark in order to do enough damage to kill something it just forces people to run more one trick pony builds. This is unless mark still applied steal traited effects of course, which again would be a straight up buff if the sneak attack applies them too.

> >

> > The idea is to turn their "Steal" into a manual function, applied through an extremely strong Stealth Attack.

> >

> > Deadeye Mark will become more like "Loading a Bullet"

> >

> > It will turn the next Stealth Attack into Malicious Stealth Attack and apply Steal effects **IF IT HITS**

> >

> > If anything, this is more of a function nerf and it doesn't let Deadeyes have an "ez" button that applies like 7 effects without even putting them into danger melee range.

> >

> > The "mark" will no longer mark at all, and Malice will only consume when used on a primed Stealth Attack.

> >

> > So if they missed their Malicious Stealth Attack, boo hoo hoo.

> >

> > Will it make DEs try to go for 1 shot cheese builds again?

> >

> > Yes. I'm counting on it.

> > Snipers should be aiming to deal a bulk of their damage in a single important shot anyway, and not spamming Spotters and 2k damage autos.

> >

> > And if they missed their important shot?

> > They are punished by not having access to it for awhile and need to reposition to avoid retaliation.

> >

>

> Honestly, all of this would make next to no difference, and require substantial reworks in the process. The thing that killed malicious backstab as a build was the introduction of mounts combined with the damage nerf in the Feb 2020 patch; you can't one shot a guy who's mounted because excessive damage to the mount does not overflow into the player's health (it's rather like throwing your 25K backstab into 5k of necro shroud, it ain't gonna work), and if the player is dismounted you no longer have the damage to one shot the majority of builds whether you build malice or not.

>

> So unless you're going to suggest a mechanic that bypasses the mount health and strikes a player's health directly, or that simply does enough damage to overpower the opponent in one shot, it will achieve nothing. And even if it did, frankly, the way DE burst before the Feb patch was plain unhealthy for the game, I don't really want to see a return to that. I'd rather see a more useful set of rifle 2 and 3 skills so that spamming standing rifle 2 for malice isn't always the best choice, and so the 3 skills aren't damage dealers, but so they do something else that sets up the opponent for the spike. That would make DE gameplay far less spammy while not overpowering or breaking it in the process.

 

Rifle 3 just takes up too much init and before your init is drained your malice wont be filled. So the only reasonable thing to do is,spamm 2. Dmg wise and init wise its the best way to go,i barely,if ever even use 3 at all. I rather save that init for rifle 4 or 5 - 2 spamm for immobs.

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Honestly the problem with thieves is SA trait everything else is neglectable if SA trait was nerfed. SA gives incredible amount of sustain to thieves so i don't know why thief mains are saying they don't. Thing with thieves is the ability to reset a fight and reengage right away with no CD aside from utilities which in most cases are not an issue because yes shortbow 5 cannot be spammed anymore but its still one of the best disengage tools in the game.

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> @"Salt Mode.3780" said:

> Honestly the problem with thieves is SA trait everything else is neglectable if SA trait was nerfed. SA gives incredible amount of sustain to thieves so i don't know why thief mains are saying they don't. Thing with thieves is the ability to reset a fight and reengage right away with no CD aside from utilities which in most cases are not an issue because yes shortbow 5 cannot be spammed anymore but its still one of the best disengage tools in the game.

 

Utility is stunbreak. Utility is cleanse. Utility is stealth.

 

So if you just kite the thief for a bit in the start to bait those cool downs they are trapped.

 

The strongest thieves don't reset. They just beat you.

 

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> @"saerni.2584" said:

 

> Utility is stunbreak. Utility is cleanse. Utility is stealth.

>

> So if you just kite the thief for a bit in the start to bait those cool downs they are trapped.

>

> The strongest thieves don't reset. They just beat you.

 

"The strongest thieves don't reset" is false.

If yu manage to force even a good thief to use a couple of cooldowns, they will be quick to break away instead of re-engaging.

 

It's a no brainer that a fragile build like most thieves run will refrain from re-engaging when they have no defensive cooldowns left.

This isn't even a Thief centric gameplay tactic, every player who has played the game for awhile will instinctively know how "safe" they feel with how much they have left.

And if they don't feel safe, they usually back off from a fight or wait around buying time for cooldowns and play defensively.

 

Only bad players in general get baited into using cooldowns but continue fighting anyway.

 

 

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

>

> > Utility is stunbreak. Utility is cleanse. Utility is stealth.

> >

> > So if you just kite the thief for a bit in the start to bait those cool downs they are trapped.

> >

> > The strongest thieves don't reset. They just beat you.

>

> "The strongest thieves don't reset" is false.

> If yu manage to force even a good thief to use a couple of cooldowns, they will be quick to break away instead of re-engaging.

>

> It's a no brainer that a fragile build like most thieves run will refrain from re-engaging when they have no defensive cooldowns left.

> This isn't even a Thief centric gameplay tactic, every player who has played the game for awhile will instinctively know how "safe" they feel with how much they have left.

> And if they don't feel safe, they usually back off from a fight or wait around buying time for cooldowns and play defensively.

>

> Only bad players in general get baited into using cooldowns but continue fighting anyway.

>

>

 

Don't need to reset. Why reset if you are winning? Managing cool downs is fundamental. But you lose a few cool downs naturally during a fight. It's whether you burn their cool downs in that time. If so then you come out ahead.

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> @"saerni.2584" said:

 

> Don't need to reset. Why reset if you are winning? Managing cool downs is fundamental. But you lose a few cool downs naturally during a fight. It's whether you burn their cool downs in that time. If so then you come out ahead.

 

And there we have it.

This is why Thief needs to be nerfed : When both players are equally skilled and blow each other's cooldowns, thief comes out ahead. /s

 

 

 

 

 

 

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

>

> > Don't need to reset. Why reset if you are winning? Managing cool downs is fundamental. But you lose a few cool downs naturally during a fight. It's whether you burn their cool downs in that time. If so then you come out ahead.

>

> And there we have it.

> This is why Thief needs to be nerfed : When both players are equally skilled and blow each other's cooldowns, thief comes out ahead. /s

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

I think it's a fair enough fight.

 

There's a narrative where the thief has to run. And if the thief runs it's unfair because the thief could run. But if the thief wins then it's unfair because thief isn't supposed to win.

 

In reality it's more that thief can either run, which is safer, or fight and risk dying. And winning in that case is more a matter of build craft and skill. Sure a thief could always run but that means they can never win because the cool downs they use to run are the same they need to win (both utilities and in terms of initiative use).

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> @"saerni.2584" said:

 

> In reality it's more that thief can either run, which is safer, or fight and risk dying. And winning in that case is more a matter of build craft and skill. Sure a thief could always run but that means they can never win because the cool downs they use to run are the same they need to win (both utilities and in terms of initiative use).

 

Woah woah woah, I think yur underselling Thief a tad there.

Thief needs their utilities to run, yes, but they absolutely do not need them to kill.

 

D/P is just so overloaded a kit it can be used to both run and kill provided the Thief isn't forced to use their cooldowns.

Unblockable Blind + 900 Gapcloser + Damage Shadowshot

Heartseeker execute

Backstab

D/P 5 + 2

 

If a Thief isn't forced to use their cooldowns at all, I'm pretty sure they have more than enough with just D/P to kill someone.

 

Compared to stuff like :

Power Herald : probably needs to cast Facets and PT a few times

Burn DH : probably needs to use their Traps and Spear

Immob Druid : probably needs to Entangle, and their traps to kite

Scrapper : probably needs to use their Kits once or twice, but their individual skill cooldowns are something else

Mesmer : probably needs to use their cooldowns a few times due to their Burst oriented playstyle by going from weaponskills > cooldowns > weaponskills

Reaper : definitely needs to use their cooldowns like Necrotic Traversal, Chilled to the Bone, Spectral Grasp etc to secure kills

Scourge : let's be real MMs are essentially using all their utilities :P

 

Yu get the idea.

And then we have Thief which is like "Lol 5 + 2 > Steal + Backstab > wait around for retaliation > Shadowshot > 5 + 2 > Shadowshot > wait around > 5 + 2 > Steal + Backstab"

 

 

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> Yu get the idea.

> And then we have Thief which is like "Lol 5 + 2 > Steal + Backstab > wait around for retaliation > Shadowshot > 5 + 2 > Shadowshot > wait around > 5 + 2 > Steal + Backstab"

 

And then you leave the training golem area and it appears any time you're out of resources, you're out of resources; any time you get cced, you need to choose if this is the time the opponent "forced you to use your utilities that you never need to use" or eat free dmg; any time you "wait around", the "target golem" doesn't, because it's not a target golem anymore.

You get the idea.

 

And what is this "compared to.." list? You're listing that classes need to use their kit? And thief somehow doesn't? That's just false.

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> @"Sobx.1758" said:

 

> And what is this "compared to.." list? You're listing that classes need to use their kit? And thief somehow doesn't? That's just false.

 

It's fundamentally true though.

If a Thief has to fight, say, Vet Guards, they have no need to use any of their slotted utilities at all.

For all the other builds/professions I listed, they have to at least use a couple of utilities which are part of their combo which form up their build.

 

Unless yu are gonna counter my point by saying people can kill anything with just auto attacks I guess.

 

I'm actually curious to see what happens if there is a WvW weekend where all utilities save Healing skills are locked out.

 

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

>

> > And what is this "compared to.." list? You're listing that classes need to use their kit? And thief somehow doesn't? That's just false.

>

> It's fundamentally true though.

 

No, the point is that it's not. Pretty sure adding "fundamentally" doesn't change anything about that.

 

> If a Thief has to fight, say, Vet Guards, they have no need to use any of their slotted utilities at all.

> For all the other builds/professions I listed, they have to at least use a couple of utilities which are part of their combo which form up their build.

 

> Unless yu are gonna counter my point by saying people can kill anything with just auto attacks I guess.

 

I mean it's fundamentally true though, they can [kill anything with just auto attacks].

But lets put that aside just to humor you I guess -"the other classes" don't need to use their utilities to kill, say, Vet Guards either. Unless for some reason you count "optimal dps rotation" for other classes, but not for the thief (in which case, it would need to change the utilities from the ones helping survive in pvp in the first place).

I'm confused by the point you're trying to make here. It's stretched out pretty thin right from the previous post where you just randomly list some skills and pseudo-rotations while "just waiting around" in pvp.

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People who chase 10vs1 a solo player that is a thief or any other profession are stupid players.

 

You have no idea how many groups completely ignored objectives, camps towers and sometimes keeps just to chase me down 10+ or more and lost those objectives during the time of the chase.

 

And those are the kind of players who will tell you, this is 1vs1 gamemode yadayadayada.

Well, this is not a 10vs1 gamemode either, and if you lose objectives just to chase or to kill a solo player/roamer, you actually lost to that solo player even if you ended up killing him.

 

I am not talking of cleanup kills after a zerg vs zerg fight where you kill the few enemy remained alive, that's normal.

 

But what's the point of chasing a solo player across half map just for a kill?

 

Who cares if that thief escaped you, get your dang 10 man group and grab a tower, a keep and you helped you server 100 times more than killing a thief 10vs1.

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> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> >

> > > And what is this "compared to.." list? You're listing that classes need to use their kit? And thief somehow doesn't? That's just false.

> >

> > It's fundamentally true though.

>

> No, the point is that it's not. Pretty sure adding "fundamentally" doesn't change anything about that.

>

> > If a Thief has to fight, say, Vet Guards, they have no need to use any of their slotted utilities at all.

> > For all the other builds/professions I listed, they have to at least use a couple of utilities which are part of their combo which form up their build.

>

> > Unless yu are gonna counter my point by saying people can kill anything with just auto attacks I guess.

>

> I mean it's fundamentally true though, they can [kill anything with just auto attacks].

> But lets put that aside just to humor you I guess -"the other classes" don't need to use their utilities to kill, say, Vet Guards either. Unless for some reason you count "optimal dps rotation" for other classes, but not for the thief (in which case, it would need to change the utilities from the ones helping survive in pvp in the first place).

> I'm confused by the point you're trying to make here. It's stretched out pretty thin right from the previous post where you just randomly list some skills and pseudo-rotations while "just waiting around" in pvp.

 

Apparently if I don't directly quote the post I disagree with my post gets reported and taken down for being off topic.

 

So, to be clear, I disagree with the idea that fighting veteran NPCs is a good way to discuss inter-profession balance issues. I also happen to disagree that no other classes can kill Sentries/Camps (as this is WvW specific) without burning utility cool downs. Most (decent) builds can use weapon skills and Profession skills to kills veterans quickly/easily.

 

Thieves may burn a utility to make a Sentry or Camp go faster. So will other Professions. A ranger can use utilities for boosted damage combos. But that doesn't mean they have to use them. But if they do use them it will be faster and the cooldown isn't so bad they mind using it on a consistent basis (30 seconds isn't a long time in WvW).

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> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > >

> > > > And what is this "compared to.." list? You're listing that classes need to use their kit? And thief somehow doesn't? That's just false.

> > >

> > > It's fundamentally true though.

> >

> > No, the point is that it's not. Pretty sure adding "fundamentally" doesn't change anything about that.

> >

> > > If a Thief has to fight, say, Vet Guards, they have no need to use any of their slotted utilities at all.

> > > For all the other builds/professions I listed, they have to at least use a couple of utilities which are part of their combo which form up their build.

> >

> > > Unless yu are gonna counter my point by saying people can kill anything with just auto attacks I guess.

> >

> > I mean it's fundamentally true though, they can [kill anything with just auto attacks].

> > But lets put that aside just to humor you I guess -"the other classes" don't need to use their utilities to kill, say, Vet Guards either. Unless for some reason you count "optimal dps rotation" for other classes, but not for the thief (in which case, it would need to change the utilities from the ones helping survive in pvp in the first place).

> > I'm confused by the point you're trying to make here. It's stretched out pretty thin right from the previous post where you just randomly list some skills and pseudo-rotations while "just waiting around" in pvp.

>

> So, to be clear, I disagree with the idea that fighting veteran NPCs is a good way to discuss inter-profession balance issues. I also happen to disagree that no other classes can kill Sentries/Camps (as this is WvW specific) without burning utility cool downs. Most (decent) builds can use weapon skills and Profession skills to kills veterans quickly/easily.

>

> Thieves may burn a utility to make a Sentry or Camp go faster. So will other Professions. A ranger can use utilities for boosted damage combos. But that doesn't mean they have to use them. But if they do use them it will be faster and the cooldown isn't so bad they mind using it on a consistent basis (30 seconds isn't a long time in WvW).

 

Yup, those were just pretty random (and false) claims to make and apparently yasai already dropped them anyways.

"fundamentally true though.", yeah sure, ok.

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> @"Salt Mode.3780" said:

> Honestly the problem with thieves is SA trait everything else is neglectable if SA trait was nerfed. SA gives incredible amount of sustain to thieves so i don't know why thief mains are saying they don't. **Thing with thieves is the ability to reset a fight and reengage right away with no CD aside from utilities which in most cases are not an issue because yes shortbow 5 cannot be spammed anymore but its still one of the best disengage tools in the game.**

You counter your own arguement within your own same sentence, it's so beautiful. Sublime!

 

It's like the 8 seconds worth of initiative isn't a cooldown at all in your alternative reality, and 900away isn't even enough to OOC my dude. So how he gonna go OOC -AND- insta re-engage without more CDs burned?!? If he's SA, he has trickery 2nd, so no Serpent Touch trait from DA to try to keep you in combat with the poison from Steal'ing on you if he was to attempt a quick OOC regen. So your just both gonna regen OOC.

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OP: Only zergs, no other playstyles allowed please!

 

I mean it's not like thief is OP in terms of impact, that much is clear since most of the impact COMES from the zerg where thieves are literally the worst class.

 

I don't get this type of mentality- why don't you like variety in gameplay? All you want to do is faceroll into a big blob of players hitting your rotations every time like smashing your face into a brick wall over and over with no variables other than a little bit of skill and basically the numbers in the zerg itself? Is this how you approach your general life?

 

Like I'm not knocking zerging and mindflaying with a big blob of allies, it's really fun, but I don't understand how you can knock variety in gameplay. It adds complexity.

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> @"Tridentuk.1625" said:

> OP: Only zergs, no other playstyles allowed please!

>

> I mean it's not like thief is OP in terms of impact, that much is clear since most of the impact COMES from the zerg where thieves are literally the worst class.

>

> I don't get this type of mentality- why don't you like variety in gameplay? All you want to do is faceroll into a big blob of players hitting your rotations every time like smashing your face into a brick wall over and over with no variables other than a little bit of skill and basically the numbers in the zerg itself? Is this how you approach your general life?

>

> Like I'm not knocking zerging and mindflaying with a big blob of allies, it's really fun, but I don't understand how you can knock variety in gameplay. It adds complexity.

 

Another mentality i don't get is when players built for zerg combat come and complain after being killed en route to their zerg by a player built for roaming and then come on the forums screaming that the class they got killed by are broken op. Its not like the roamer would be as effective as a zergling in a zerg fight.

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> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"Tridentuk.1625" said:

> > OP: Only zergs, no other playstyles allowed please!

> >

> > I mean it's not like thief is OP in terms of impact, that much is clear since most of the impact COMES from the zerg where thieves are literally the worst class.

> >

> > I don't get this type of mentality- why don't you like variety in gameplay? All you want to do is faceroll into a big blob of players hitting your rotations every time like smashing your face into a brick wall over and over with no variables other than a little bit of skill and basically the numbers in the zerg itself? Is this how you approach your general life?

> >

> > Like I'm not knocking zerging and mindflaying with a big blob of allies, it's really fun, but I don't understand how you can knock variety in gameplay. It adds complexity.

>

> Another mentality i don't get is when players built for zerg combat come and complain after being killed en route to their zerg by a player built for roaming and then come on the forums screaming that the class they got killed by are broken op. Its not like the roamer would be as effective as a zergling in a zerg fight.

 

Exactly. If you bring a thief or ranger to a zerg situation, you get shouted down and told to reroll. Not sure why they are surprised when they get told to reroll after bringing a zerg build roaming, it's literally the same principle in reverse haha

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> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> Exactly. If you bring a thief or ranger to a zerg situation, you get shouted down and told to reroll. Not sure why they are surprised when they get told to reroll after bringing a zerg build roaming, it's literally the same principle in reverse haha

 

Oh boi, it's my ultimate pet peeve when some dude is yelling and raging in Team chat about this "unbeatable hacker who does so much damage camping the spawn area" and I come and find out that this dude is running full Zerker Zerg build and getting preyed on by a Roamer.

 

**In fact, I think if anyone complains about another class in WvW subforum from now on has to reveal their build as a courtesy.**

It's really such a ridiculous claim about another class being GGOP when they themselves are playing what's essentially a wet ricepaper.

 

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > Exactly. If you bring a thief or ranger to a zerg situation, you get shouted down and told to reroll. Not sure why they are surprised when they get told to reroll after bringing a zerg build roaming, it's literally the same principle in reverse haha

>

> Oh boi, it's my ultimate pet peeve when some dude is yelling and raging in Team chat about this "unbeatable hacker who does so much damage camping the spawn area" and I come and find out that this dude is running full Zerker Zerg build and getting preyed on by a Roamer.

>

> **In fact, I think if anyone complains about another class in WvW subforum from now on has to reveal their build as a courtesy.**

> It's really such a ridiculous claim about another class being GGOP when they themselves are playing what's essentially a wet ricepaper.

>

 

It's kind of ironic, because you've made it very apparent you're a former mirage main who's on multiple occasions rejected that MC is a bad mechanic and was impossible to balance.

A bad player can play a good build and still suck, and a good player can play a bad build and still do well in various content spheres. People who act like this often embellish the truth quite a bit and would probably just say they're a thief main, and nobody would be able to call them out.

 

It'd be wiser if we just reject nonsense and ask disillusioned people to post the proof of their claims for gameplay critique or fight analysis, or simply try to have them drop the attitude and help them become better players to overcome the issues initially.

 

It's also an entirely different subject to talk about bad design versus something being overpowered. Most people acknowledge Sustained stealth, reduced visual clarity, overly-punishing effects like Ancient Seeds, gamebreaking things like boon-spamming firebrand, and virtually everything about Scourge and its management of large-scale boons are poorly-designed when considering the game's content sphere as a whole and for various reasons. Even if not nominally OP, something can be validly critiqued as bad design and more importantly, propose a well-founded change.

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> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> It's kind of ironic, because you've made it very apparent you're a former mirage main who's on multiple occasions rejected that MC is a bad mechanic and was impossible to balance.

> A bad player can play a good build and still suck, and a good player can play a bad build and still do well in various content spheres. People who act like this often embellish the truth quite a bit and would probably just say they're a thief main, and nobody would be able to call them out.

>

> It'd be wiser if we just reject nonsense and ask disillusioned people to post the proof of their claims for gameplay critique or fight analysis, or simply try to have them drop the attitude and help them become better players to overcome the issues initially.

>

> It's also an entirely different subject to talk about bad design versus something being overpowered. Most people acknowledge Sustained stealth, reduced visual clarity, overly-punishing effects like Ancient Seeds, gamebreaking things like boon-spamming firebrand, and virtually everything about Scourge and its management of large-scale boons are poorly-designed when considering the game's content sphere as a whole and for various reasons. Even if not nominally OP, something can be validly critiqued as bad design and more importantly, propose a well-founded change.

 

Assuming too much aren't we?

I never did say I mained thief, but I do play it.

And I never said MC was a problem, I always mentioned IH when talking about Mirage.

IH is the true problem.

If anything, I have paraded that Initiative is impossible to balance.

 

1. I play Condi Chrono, Weaver, Core Warrior, Core Revenant and Core Thief. (I have posted my builds several times on the forums to boot)

 

2. Yes, honestly we should get people to post videos, but that's not always a case. But telling someone to reveal their build usually tells us how they would fair against the class they are complaining about. It also allows to input more constructive advice instead of devolving into a "just dodge" or "L2P" back and forth

 

3. Not sure about bad design, but nothing becomes "overpowered" through their own design. I think it's more accurate to look at things in a Food chain concept. Previously, was Condi Herald ever a big issue? Not really, because it was being kept in check by things like Power Soulbeast, Condi spam Mirage or 1 shot backstab builds. But with the February patch, alot of the things previously "preying" on Condi Herald suddenly vanished overnight, and as a result Condi Herald is now the head honcho.

 

Similarly, there are things in the past keeping Thief from being too dominant, the main build being Power Spellbreaker.

But ever since Warriors got slapped with 300ICD traits, their effectiveness plummeted and lesser and lesser effective builds exist to dab on Thieves.

 

And so on and so forth.

 

4. My opinions on Boons : Boons are broken. I have spoke about this on several threads as well.

Boons need a competitive split in terms of effectiveness.

Even if we ignore defensive boons, Might gives way too much free stats for something which can be sustained and gained by all professions with fairly little effort.

Sometimes yu lose a fight not because yu are less skilled, but because while both players are equally skilled, the one with more boon uptime can hit harder at all times.

 

 

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