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Should you ever full cap? (pvp)


Tridentuk.1625

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I've been watching a tonne of Vallun and the gist that I get is that you should be looking for +1s as the priority, and then looking for decaps as a 2nd option.. However, probably because I'm inexperienced only 20 games played, I have times where I just can't find a +1 so instead of doing nothing I want to full cap.

 

Is this really that fundamentally wrong and should I just practice more on map awareness to find those +1s, are there circumstances where full capping is viable?

 

ALSO because I'm playing with probably less skilled players there tends to be a lot of mobbing going on where my team runs around as a 4, or the other team does- especially around middle. Can someone give me a run down on the appropriate actions to take in these circumstances? I get the sense that it's a very exploitable meta I'm in but don't know the way to exploit if that makes sense.

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> @"Tridentuk.1625" said:

> I've been watching a tonne of Vallun and the gist that I get is that you should be looking for +1s as the priority, and then looking for decaps as a 2nd option.. However, probably because I'm inexperienced only 20 games played, I have times where I just can't find a +1 so instead of doing nothing I want to full cap.

>

> Is this really that fundamentally wrong and should I just practice more on map awareness to find those +1s, are there circumstances where full capping is viable?

>

> ALSO because I'm playing with probably less skilled players there tends to be a lot of mobbing going on where my team runs around as a 4, or the other team does- especially around middle. Can someone give me a run down on the appropriate actions to take in these circumstances? I get the sense that it's a very exploitable meta I'm in but don't know the way to exploit if that makes sense.

 

You've somewhat answered your own question which is good. Generally speaking, the advice of "what to do" comes more or less from a certain expected level of baseline competency from the two teams.

 

A +1 is only really going to be effective when making something like a 3v2 or 2v1 to defend or help contest/win an offensive play by another team member. Possibly even a 3v1 if your team is struggling to gain a foothold. Basically, the higher-level mindset is not so much "always +1 and then always decap" to "Always ensure the other team isn't getting a foothold to win the map" It sounds obvious, but you need to think of this less as winning fights to secure points and holding but rather always keeping the enemy down a bit.

 

In scenarios you describe like both sides sending the whole team for mid, whether or not you full cap is dependent on the rest of the map.

If mid is a dead-even match and it's a neutral node and a 4v5, and you just came off a 1-1 tie prior to decapping, there's little reason to try and force the mid capture by making it a 5v5 unless you think your presence is enough to make the 5v5 winnable with a team wipe to take the point, or if your presence is enough to somehow sustain the point as neutral. This is rarely the case though, so odds are, you would gain way more points just capping far and *then* maybe trying to cap mid than immediately going mid and dealing with a squabble.

 

This becomes especially volatile at lower ranks because to make the constant roaming strategy work, your team has to be good enough to go even with the enemy team without you.

 

However, if you're being outplayed by another thief on the decap game who's also denying you the full capture because they're also consistently out-dueling you, and the enemy team is managing to barely hold mid in the 4v4 or it's constantly neutral (with a point-score at 1-2 or 0-1), you have to result to +1'ing mid to give your team a foothold, otherwise you're just bleeding out by the enemy thief and your fullcap will last little longer than a few seconds anyways when they come back.

 

If you're consistently out-playing THEM though and mid is locked up in a 4v4 on a neutral point, and they're the only player coming to kill you, a full capture is much more valuable because while you can endlessly trade the 0-0 decap score, you can kill them, full cap the closest point, traverse the map during their respawn, and opt for a decap on their home and match where they go on spawn to leverage a permanent +1 node score. If they go to decap you kill them and the node stays yours. If they go to full cap the neutral node, you kill them and the other one is left open. This keeps the enemy team at a permanent 0-node position if mid stays neutral and tied score even if they take mid. The 2-1 lead is much less important than keeping a 1-0 lead, since a 1-0 lead is a guaranteed win over time, while 2-1 can let the enemies win if a lead was gotten earlier or they rally for a brief window.

 

When teams start breaking apart and rotating will +1 start being a way more significant part of the game, but the underlying concept is is still the same; you go to where the fastest advantage in terms of nodes can be gained to keep the enemy team suppressed by supporting the footholds you have and trying to keep the enemy as weak as possible when the play can be made.

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@DeceiverX.8361

So just overrall map awareness is the best weapon at hand in general. That's going to take me some time but it's good to get the clarification.

 

I'm probably at the stage where there's a bit too much unfamiliar info flying at me in a game to utilise this fully, but I'll definitiely keep it in mind and work on it thanks, and also like you say at the early stage I'm at matches are very volatile.

 

I think what I got from this for my bracket is that if nub lobbies are squabbling mid it can be good to full cap side nodes where possible, but if I notice my team is going fairly even it'll can be advantageous to add my weight after I have nothing to do. However like I say overrall map awareness is king and that "it depends" on a variety of factors.

 

What about if my team loses teamfights? I mean I know those will generally end in losses but maybe I can grab the occasional win if I know the right plays.

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> @"Tridentuk.1625" said:

> @DeceiverX.8361

> So just overrall map awareness is the best weapon at hand in general. That's going to take me some time but it's good to get the clarification.

>

> I'm probably at the stage where there's a bit too much unfamiliar info flying at me in a game to utilise this fully, but I'll definitiely keep it in mind and work on it thanks, and also like you say at the early stage I'm at matches are very volatile.

>

> I think what I got from this for my bracket is that if nub lobbies are squabbling mid it can be good to full cap side nodes where possible, but if I notice my team is going fairly even it'll can be advantageous to add my weight after I have nothing to do. However like I say overrall map awareness is king and that "it depends" on a variety of factors.

>

> What about if my team loses teamfights? I mean I know those will generally end in losses but maybe I can grab the occasional win if I know the right plays.

 

Yeah, the decision-making is a bit nuanced and developing situational awareness and being able to answer questions like "How long will it take me to traverse to X point from Y location?" among others like resources/cooldowns, shadowstep distances, gauging ally and enemy strengths and weaknesses, etc. really just comes more or less from practice and slowly learning. While +1 then decap is the best general advice in its simplest form, this is mostly just an overall statement of how to have the most impact on the map assuming things are generally going as expected in the sPvP meta. I can get where the idea comes from because there's a lot of mobility in the game right now, so the old/prior manta of "decap above all else" has been squandered a bit because the enemy team can pretty quickly match your point rotation if they're playing a more standard game. Since lower ranks are more volatile in how teams as a whole play, making assumptions about how to win a more structured approach is going to be less useful across every game, and the formula will possibly not work as well. Vollun's advice is good on the general for people who might have developed mechanical skill and might be stuck grinding in silver/gold where standardized play starts to be more prominent, but it breaks down when both you and the other players in the match are newer and overall learning how to execute plays rather than the overall macro. As you get better and start being able to cannibalize other thieves easily to deny their map presence in the games where they exist, and climb into the middle tiers where the blob mid isn't as common and can possibly just out-duel worse players on side nodes to carry fullcap wins, his advice will really start kicking in and making a lot more sense in its general simplicity.

 

When your team starts losing teamfights, it still really depends on a few things. If there's a gross lack of coordination (I.E. just infinitely running into multi-enemy defended nodes one at a time over and over where the enemy is split 3-2 defending two points), and your team is consistently instantly dying in these scenarios as to never gain any kind of even ground again, sometimes these are just lost matches; 4 of 5 members of your team are then definitively substantially worse players, and unless you are individually so good or the enemy so bad to allow you to 1v2/1v3 on-point at far and hold the sidenodes, the nature of team games just has the cards fall that way.

 

That said, what CAN be winnable in a team rallying and losing the 4v4/5v3 mid is to +1 the mid fight to give them the necessary foothold and just try and decap when necessary, assuming you can win the 5v4 mid and your team capable of holding long enough for you to decap quickly and re-join the fray. If the enemy team isn't decapping home, you can mid->home fullcap->mid and maybe salvage the foothold if the enemy team keeps its 3/2 or 3/1 split. If the enemy team doesn't commit at least 4 to mid or send home to decap, they're lose the game, letting you also decap their far and keep the 5v5 split decap going enough to possibly gain a point advantage.

 

If the enemy thief is worse than you, it can be just enough to carry your team with a close victory, but if they're better than you AND the core teamfighters are superior, the enemy thief will match the roams and either kill you during the decap phase or help their team win the 5v5 easier during your rotations, and well, it's 5 players all playing better at each role. Sometimes it just happens that way and the best you can do is to keep improving.

 

So sometimes developing map awareness can come at the cost of lost matchups, but it's often still better than simply running and gunning for fights which you may or may not win. This is especially volatile if you're still grasping the gameplay mechanics of the classes while new, and entirely likely your allies are doing the same. Even the most well-informed new player of the current game-state can be completely blindsided by another player opting for a wildly off-meta build by their opponent for no other reason than lack of familiarity, and if their mechanics aren't up to snuff to deal with whatever curveballs may be thrown, they'll lose.

 

So yeah, TL;DR, map awareness is the big thing to start carrying worse teams, but there's still a need for some degree of raw play mechanics to perform better than the other thief to not get beat at your own game, and if you add the ingredients together when in the middle ranks, Vollun's advice and the priority for +1'ing/rotating makes a lot more sense in terms of how the game is played today at that level and beyond. Don't worry too much about winning while new so much as improving your overall knowledge and ability to execute your plans, and you'll be all set for the long term.

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> Imo just decap and focus on +1.

>

> There is always one idiot who breaks off during the teamfight (due to being focused or whatever) and after recovering they proceed to run off and cap instead of fighting.

 

Well it smart to break off if ur teams comp is losing hard in the teamfight or if the other teams just slaughtering leaving u in a soon to be 1v3 etc, ur better off leaving to decap.

Also there's to many variances to say never cap as some matches ur teammates get slaughtering before u can plus for them combined with the fact some players ignore nodes completely, so u may as well try and full cap cuz ur the only one trying and the games a loss either way lol.

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> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> >the games a loss either way lol.

>

> Just me but if a game is loss either way, I don't wanna get pm'd after the match asking why I didn't +1 xDDDDDD

>

>

 

But u will anyway cuz ur thief, its always the thiefs fault. U can be heading far to decap just after seeing 2 enemies on close and someone in chat will flame u for not decaping home not looking at map knowing ud be in a 1v2 if u tried. U can plus or help in team fights where ur constantly left vs their team cuz ur always the last man standing on ur team and the only one who hasn't died yet and ull still get flamed. At bell if u and a couple teammates are trying for it ull get flamed for not decapping if u win bell but if u were decapping and ur team loses bell they'll flame u for not being at bell lol.

The majority of the player base in gw2 aren't generally very good at competitive pvp, sry but its true and why a lot were drawn to it and they act like children when they lose or are losing and blame everyone but them selves. Do to the bias hate and how thieves are spoken about in general from the community they are easy targets for teammates to blame. Honestly any other pvp game id say chat is useful, in gw2 its more of a detriment to the game cuz the players mentality, just turn it off and have fun. Gw2 is a meme now so who cares in the end who wins as long as ur having a good time.

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@DeceiverX.8361

Thanks this is all the information I was after.

 

I do come with MOBA experience and so I get what you're saying about making the percentage plays even if they don't work out in selective individual matches because it will create a net positivee during the grind, and yeah I'm starting to see your point about the volatility in early matchmaking it kind of makes the meta all messy, which is a concept that is also familiar from previous games. I've had the occasional game where +1/decap has worked as intended and I feel I've influenced the result, but the majority of games are still very much "if I play well I'm just accelerating the train" or "even if I play well the impact is negligible". A lot of games I have allies try to run to the same decap which is probably sometimes partly my fault, but is also just a symptom of the lobbies I'm in, and I'm working on that so that even if someone should be fighting I can minimise the inefficiency by replacing them in the fight if I can correctly predict their intentions. In Dota we used to call this the "trench" where you just have to adapt to rise to a point where you can play normally.

 

What I think you were saying about in some games where it looks like a loss it might be better to try to fight and maybe create a 5v4 to gain a foothold is currently very useful thanks. I'll take that away and try it out if it looks appropriate.

 

Yeah I have enough mechanical stuff and just general map knowledge (my rotations are much slower than they should be just due to not knowing the maps well enough) for progression as well so I have no excuses, but I'll keep practicing this stuff and it will increasingly pay off in the long run I'm confident.

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