Expert Mesmer can answer this please ?

[Guilan.5760]

I'm a returning player and I'm having a blast. Mainly I'm finish all the PvE stuff having lots of fun and experimenting with various mesmer builds, in order to find my confort zone with this marvel of a class. (Best class in any mmo or even game that I've played yet.) So, I'm dancing between 1. thinking that I get a grip on how the class works in PvE because I'm getting good with rotations and experimenting a goos ynergy between skills etc. and 2. and realising how much I'm wrong whenever I try PvP or WvW, wich tells me that I do not master the class like AT ALL yet, or that it is simply a poor choice for anything PvP. But I hope its just me being bad at it for the moment, cause I love the class and I wanna raise my gameplay with it to a top level.

 

Is a Mirage Condi DPS a viable option in anything PvP ?

Or did the recent endurance nerf just throw Mirage into the garbage ?

 

Hmmm funny that was not at all my intended question when i initially started this thread, but I really do want you guys opinion on this.

 

So I'm going to get to my initial question now I guess.

 

I've run into a build meant for Raids on metabattle, this build : http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Condi_DPS_Illusions

It is built upon the infliction of stacks of confusion. But there is something very (actually) confusing about it.

When you read the rotations and the usage of the build, it implies that any of the 4 shatter skills can trigger Ineptitude.

But to trigger Ineptitude, you need to interrupt the enemy, and there is only the Diversion shatter that interrupts (because daze).

Si isn't Ineptitude useless with anything else than diversion ?

 

Is there something that I'm not seeing ?

 

[Hannelore.8153]

All outgoing Blind conditions also inflict Confusion, from any source. The interrupt just blinds the target.

 

For competitive play you need to take some stealth. You can do this on condi builds by using Axe/Torch, (#4 stealths), the +Expertise signet, and maybe Desparate Decoy instead of Duelist's Dicipline if you don't use Pistol off-hand.

 

If you're still struggling then also add in Decoy (the actual skill).

 

The idea is simple, you load your enemy down with conditions and then disappear and let them tick away a bit before ambushing them again. Any skills they spam trying to hit you while in stealth will further damage them from Confusion.

 

Remember to always open up an ambush with a CC like F3.

 

You'll have more success running something like Dire or Trailblazer and foregoing Power damage and %damage bonuses entirely. Its very difficult to pull of Power/Condition Damage hybrid builds in competitive modes because they're glassy.

 

If you really want to try to do both then you can use something like Celestial stats.

 

Remember that you can port 5k units away using portal for 60sec, which is useful if you're losing a fight.

[Veprovina.4876]

I can't speak for PvP as i don't do that, but Mirage was thrown into the garbage kind of with the 1 dodge nerf in WvW. You don't see many Mirages in WvW anymore, everyone just switched to power Chronomancer for a few simple reasons.

 

Every medium/large AOE is bigger than the distance you can cover with mirage cloak dodge. So since you're stuck with 1, you can't get out of the AOEs and need to tank the damage. Furthermore, mirage cloak is used for ambush skills so you literally have half the damage now as you can't stack so much confusion and torment as you would in PvE. This forces you to slot "evading" utility skills, meaning you further lose on potential damage.

 

What's more - condi in WvW is not really good in general. Everyone has some form of condi clense, so your strategy there is either burst your opponent down with 1 huge condi spike, or die. Like @"Hannelore.8153" said, burst with conditions, pray your opponent doesn't immediately clense them, and when you disappear or disengage, as they're using their skills and moving, Confusion and Torment do damage. This usually amounts to either you getting enough condis in one burst on someone to then keep the pressure until they're dead, or waste all your cooldowns, your condis being clensed and every class can outheal your damage (due to how endurance was nerfed). Trailblazer is your friend here to survive the onslaught when your burst doesn't work. And yes, start with CC.

 

Power is more forgiving in that matter as it's direct damage.

 

Chronomancers in WvW are reduced to Minstrel's support builds. There is only one (NOT the one on metabattle, that one is horrible), and your job in blobs is focus pull, gravity well and null field. Or if your commander wants, Veil or Illusion of Life. Maybe portal. That build is pretty good, except, most of Mesmer skills are either bugged and unreliable or hevily nerfed compared to their counterparts from other professions. You can't rely on your clones for healing/clense/boonstrip because they die instantly, phantasms don't summon but go on cooldown and Null Field can be blocked by Aegis (the only boonstrip that is not unblockable by the way, every other profession has unblockable boonstrips), and so can focus pull be blocked and negated with stability or evading.

 

Still, it's pretty fun build to play, just be sure to take Inspiration traitline to take advantage of the minstrel gear. If you want to use that Metabattle support build, don't use Minstrel's use Wanderer's.

 

Anyway, that's why you see people talking about how bad Mesmer is, because at its core, the skills aren't working 100% of the time in all situations like all the other professions. You don't see a Spellbreaker cast Winds of disenchantment and all of it being blocked by the enemy team or the skill refusing to go off. That's what Mesmers are dealing with. Cause you can summon a phantasm mid fight while your target is alive, the next second the target dies from AOE spam, and you just wasted your skill on full cooldown. Not to mention bugs where phatasms stand there doing nothing for seconds, or pathing errors where they just don't appear etc. So as a Mesmer you have to learn to play around that, meaning, you're doing double the work everyone else is doing for half the gain.

 

In PvE, open world, it doesn't matter what you run, it's all good (albeit still bugged phantasms and some skills), but your clones will survive most of the time. I run a crit/bleed Chronomancer and it's super fun! In raids however, Chronomancer is meta in a lot of them, but as you saw, the rotation to pull that off takes a lot of practice. Mirage, not so much because only some of the raid bosses are weak to condi. So you better have both if you want to run raids, or a backup profession where Mirage isn't wanted.

 

As for your Ineptitude question, it doesn't trigger on all shatters it only triggers on interrupts.

[Guilan.5760]

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> All outgoing Blind conditions also inflict Confusion, from any source. The interrupt just blinds the target.

Yes I know ! Hence the fact that only shatter 2 and 4 will get confusion stacks, the 2 becuse it does anyway, and the 4 because Ineptitude.

If you read the build when he speaks of rotations and explains the way to fight with it, he implies a few times that shatters will all apply confusion. I think the guy making/explaining the build got confused...

 

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> For competitive play you need to take some stealth. You can do this on condi builds by using Axe/Torch, (#4 stealths), the +Expertise signet, and maybe Desparate Decoy instead of Duelist's Dicipline if you don't use Pistol off-hand.

>

> If you're still struggling then also add in Decoy (the actual skill).

>

> The idea is simple, you load your enemy down with conditions and then disappear and let them tick away a bit before ambushing them again. Any skills they spam trying to hit you while in stealth will further damage them from Confusion.

>

> Remember to always open up an ambush with a CC like F3.

Thank you ! Very good advices indeed. I will write them on my white board train with those in mind for a while and see where this gets me.

 

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> You'll have more success running something like Dire or Trailblazer and foregoing Power damage and %damage bonuses entirely. Its very difficult to pull of Power/Condition Damage hybrid builds in competitive modes because they're glassy.

> If you really want to try to do both then you can use something like Celestial stats.

Trailblazer was what I had in mind, you saying it's good idea or bad ? Cause trailblazer IS hybrid isn't it ?

Celestial is something I'm actually drawn to, I was thinking of getting a set of Celestial as a basis and getting like just three pieces of each other interesting sets to complement it. Like, say my torso and head and boots are always celestial, and I adapt my leggins, gloves and shoulders to be oriented more specifically depending on the build. Doe that make sense ? I like this approach but I guess min maxing is kind of mandatory... I'm not sure where I'm going with all of this...

 

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> Remember that you can port 5k units away using portal for 60sec, which is useful if you're losing a fight.

O.O !! YES. That is... right. Thanks =D

 

[Guilan.5760]

> @"Veprovina.4876" said:

> I can't speak for PvP as i don't do that, but Mirage was thrown into the garbage kind of with the 1 dodge nerf in WvW. You don't see many Mirages in WvW anymore, everyone just switched to power Chronomancer for a few simple reasons.

>

> Every medium/large AOE is bigger than the distance you can cover with mirage cloak dodge. So since you're stuck with 1, you can't get out of the AOEs and need to tank the damage. Furthermore, mirage cloak is used for ambush skills so you literally have half the damage now as you can't stack so much confusion and torment as you would in PvE. This forces you to slot "evading" utility skills, meaning you further lose on potential damage.

>

> What's more - condi in WvW is not really good in general. Everyone has some form of condi clense, so your strategy there is either burst your opponent down with 1 huge condi spike, or die. Like @"Hannelore.8153" said, burst with conditions, pray your opponent doesn't immediately clense them, and when you disappear or disengage, as they're using their skills and moving, Confusion and Torment do damage. This usually amounts to either you getting enough condis in one burst on someone to then keep the pressure until they're dead, or waste all your cooldowns, your condis being clensed and every class can outheal your damage (due to how endurance was nerfed). Trailblazer is your friend here to survive the onslaught when your burst doesn't work. And yes, start with CC.

>

> Power is more forgiving in that matter as it's direct damage.

>

> Chronomancers in WvW are reduced to Minstrel's support builds. There is only one (NOT the one on metabattle, that one is horrible), and your job in blobs is focus pull, gravity well and null field. Or if your commander wants, Veil or Illusion of Life. Maybe portal. That build is pretty good, except, most of Mesmer skills are either bugged and unreliable or hevily nerfed compared to their counterparts from other professions. You can't rely on your clones for healing/clense/boonstrip because they die instantly, phantasms don't summon but go on cooldown and Null Field can be blocked by Aegis (the only boonstrip that is not unblockable by the way, every other profession has unblockable boonstrips), and so can focus pull be blocked and negated with stability or evading.

>

> Still, it's pretty fun build to play, just be sure to take Inspiration traitline to take advantage of the minstrel gear. If you want to use that Metabattle support build, don't use Minstrel's use Wanderer's.

>

> Anyway, that's why you see people talking about how bad Mesmer is, because at its core, the skills aren't working 100% of the time in all situations like all the other professions. You don't see a Spellbreaker cast Winds of disenchantment and all of it being blocked by the enemy team or the skill refusing to go off. That's what Mesmers are dealing with. Cause you can summon a phantasm mid fight while your target is alive, the next second the target dies from AOE spam, and you just wasted your skill on full cooldown. Not to mention bugs where phatasms stand there doing nothing for seconds, or pathing errors where they just don't appear etc. So as a Mesmer you have to learn to play around that, meaning, you're doing double the work everyone else is doing for half the gain.

>

> In PvE, open world, it doesn't matter what you run, it's all good (albeit still bugged phantasms and some skills), but your clones will survive most of the time. I run a crit/bleed Chronomancer and it's super fun! In raids however, Chronomancer is meta in a lot of them, but as you saw, the rotation to pull that off takes a lot of practice. Mirage, not so much because only some of the raid bosses are weak to condi. So you better have both if you want to run raids, or a backup profession where Mirage isn't wanted.

>

> As for your Ineptitude question, it doesn't trigger on all shatters it only triggers on interrupts.

 

This is all so sad to hear. But thank you for making it all much clearer. I hope Anet will fix this wonderful class, because I truly love it.

Well ok then. I'll ask you where you think I should look for good mesmer builds for WvW aside from metabattle ? I'm interested to know what is "the one" interesting build that you speak of. I guess I'll keep practicing Mesmer for PvE cause it is so much fun and also in case they fix it, and I'll put more energy into my Elementalist. Weaver is quite fun, but I hadn't really thought about Tempest... I guess its's time to look at my Elementalist in a more general and serious way.

 

Thank you for your reply it helped !

[Veprovina.4876]

> @"Guilan.5760" said:

> > @"Veprovina.4876" said:

> > I can't speak for PvP as i don't do that, but Mirage was thrown into the garbage kind of with the 1 dodge nerf in WvW. You don't see many Mirages in WvW anymore, everyone just switched to power Chronomancer for a few simple reasons.

> >

> > Every medium/large AOE is bigger than the distance you can cover with mirage cloak dodge. So since you're stuck with 1, you can't get out of the AOEs and need to tank the damage. Furthermore, mirage cloak is used for ambush skills so you literally have half the damage now as you can't stack so much confusion and torment as you would in PvE. This forces you to slot "evading" utility skills, meaning you further lose on potential damage.

> >

> > What's more - condi in WvW is not really good in general. Everyone has some form of condi clense, so your strategy there is either burst your opponent down with 1 huge condi spike, or die. Like @"Hannelore.8153" said, burst with conditions, pray your opponent doesn't immediately clense them, and when you disappear or disengage, as they're using their skills and moving, Confusion and Torment do damage. This usually amounts to either you getting enough condis in one burst on someone to then keep the pressure until they're dead, or waste all your cooldowns, your condis being clensed and every class can outheal your damage (due to how endurance was nerfed). Trailblazer is your friend here to survive the onslaught when your burst doesn't work. And yes, start with CC.

> >

> > Power is more forgiving in that matter as it's direct damage.

> >

> > Chronomancers in WvW are reduced to Minstrel's support builds. There is only one (NOT the one on metabattle, that one is horrible), and your job in blobs is focus pull, gravity well and null field. Or if your commander wants, Veil or Illusion of Life. Maybe portal. That build is pretty good, except, most of Mesmer skills are either bugged and unreliable or hevily nerfed compared to their counterparts from other professions. You can't rely on your clones for healing/clense/boonstrip because they die instantly, phantasms don't summon but go on cooldown and Null Field can be blocked by Aegis (the only boonstrip that is not unblockable by the way, every other profession has unblockable boonstrips), and so can focus pull be blocked and negated with stability or evading.

> >

> > Still, it's pretty fun build to play, just be sure to take Inspiration traitline to take advantage of the minstrel gear. If you want to use that Metabattle support build, don't use Minstrel's use Wanderer's.

> >

> > Anyway, that's why you see people talking about how bad Mesmer is, because at its core, the skills aren't working 100% of the time in all situations like all the other professions. You don't see a Spellbreaker cast Winds of disenchantment and all of it being blocked by the enemy team or the skill refusing to go off. That's what Mesmers are dealing with. Cause you can summon a phantasm mid fight while your target is alive, the next second the target dies from AOE spam, and you just wasted your skill on full cooldown. Not to mention bugs where phatasms stand there doing nothing for seconds, or pathing errors where they just don't appear etc. So as a Mesmer you have to learn to play around that, meaning, you're doing double the work everyone else is doing for half the gain.

> >

> > In PvE, open world, it doesn't matter what you run, it's all good (albeit still bugged phantasms and some skills), but your clones will survive most of the time. I run a crit/bleed Chronomancer and it's super fun! In raids however, Chronomancer is meta in a lot of them, but as you saw, the rotation to pull that off takes a lot of practice. Mirage, not so much because only some of the raid bosses are weak to condi. So you better have both if you want to run raids, or a backup profession where Mirage isn't wanted.

> >

> > As for your Ineptitude question, it doesn't trigger on all shatters it only triggers on interrupts.

>

> This is all so sad to hear. But thank you for making it all much clearer. I hope Anet will fix this wonderful class, because I truly love it.

> Well ok then. I'll ask you where you think I should look for good mesmer builds for WvW aside from metabattle ? I'm interested to know what is "the one" interesting build that you speak of. I guess I'll keep practicing Mesmer for PvE cause it is so much fun and also in case they fix it, and I'll put more energy into my Elementalist. Weaver is quite fun, but I hadn't really thought about Tempest... I guess its's time to look at my Elementalist in a more general and serious way.

>

> Thank you for your reply it helped !

 

Yeah, Mesmers aren't in a good place right now. Still, that doesn't mean you can't have fun playing one. :smile:

 

The metabattle build is bad because it takes Chaos as a trait on Minstrel's. Minstrel's has healing power and that build is using NONE of it. If you want to copy the metabattle build, use Wanderer's because it's still support but with power. What's worse, they recommend swapping Domination for Inspiration which is baffling because then you have nothing to do, there's nothing for you to do in WvW as support.

 

To be clear, i'm talking about this build: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Chronomancer_-_Support_Chronomancer

 

The Chaos traitline focuses on self boons and condi conversion, none of which help your team (and you'll get team and self clenses from Null Field anyway), and the miniscule cooldown of manipulation reduction is not worth to take an entire traitline for.

 

Illusion of Life is "ok" but if you are forced to use it, you're losing the fight at that point. Most of the resurrected people will then scatter like chickens because they're not on tag and die again anyway. So it's a wasted skill and takes up a slot that could have prevented them getting killed in the first place. Just don't die and support your team so that they don't die.

 

Veil you can slot regardless of the build so that's really not a "main" skill you should be using, it's only situational if your commander asks for it and combines it with other mesmers.

 

Domination traitline is the most important, that's why you're there, for boonstrips. And that traitline is fine on the metabattle build. But it makes no sense to swap it with Inspiration. Swap chaos for inspiration instead.

 

Lastly the metabattle build uses quickness as the last trait. You're never going to have enough clones in group fights (and group fights is where you as a support will be), to shatter them for quickness. They'll die in AOE spam and self shatters are not worth taking quickness for. Waste of a trait. If we had clones that are not dependant on your target being alive and can withstand AOE spam then yes, but since that's not the case, take Alacrity on slow, it'll help you cast your skills more often even though you don't have that much slow application but that's what i was talking about when i told you Mesmers are screwed over. That last traitline is entirely useless in WvW whichever trait you take because it relies on an unreliable mechanic that was never fixed.

 

This is what i run instead and i'im often top strips in the squad. If most of my Null field gets blocked, i'm still in the top 5 so i know i'm doing something good with it.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiCBs2x7lNwcYfMNWJOuSqtPA-zRJYjRP/ZkpKobpgGPEBZP8Wa/SD-e

 

**So, breakdown:**

 

Domination is for boonstrips, they happen on interrupt and shatters. F skills are still good for self clense and boonstrips even without clones so use them when you get in the middle of enemies.

 

Mimic Null field and cast it where the enemy blob is going. It has an annoying delay so just practice. But always Mimic it.

 

Well of Recall for heals and Alacrity, use Continuum Split as you're casting the skill (press Well, then CS before it casts) to get another cast of it. Cast on yourself and your team, speed up those cooldowns for more Null Field while giving some healing. If you need more Alacrity, you can mimic it as well as CS. Also put it on rams (with CS dual cast) to speed them up. Works on most siege as well. Catas get buggy animations from Alacrity, but they work too.

 

Well of Eternity is self explanatory, heal yourself, also on delay, cast it on where your squad is going to be to get the full effect. You want that 3rd pulse so it's fine if you miss the first two, although, try to kinda get those as well. Also some clense on it.

 

Gravity well needs no introduction, it's a boonstripping CC. Very good. Also a delay, be careful where you put it because it takes forever to cast and the enemy team might be out of it by the time it appears. You can pull people on walls then Grav Well on them so your blob can DPS them to death.

 

**Gear:**

 

Minstrel's and you get to take advantage of that healing power with Inspiration traitline. Defender runes for tankyness and Boon duration, plus it has a nice 6th for your squad. Infusions if you have ascended, just vitality, be more tanky, or healing power. But personally i think you get most out of vitality, there's not much difference in healing if you use all healing infusions, nor is there much of a difference in boon duration if you use concentration ones. So just tank yourself up so it's easier to stay alive and help your squad.

 

**Weapons:**

 

Focus for pull and Warden (although treat all phantasms as highly unreliable and don't count on them). Scepter is ok for block and can generate some clones here and there. Block gives you a clone so use that to instantly shatter it. Don't wait. Sword has evade on 2 and in perfect flat terrain it can give you a clone to shatter on 3 (unreliable), otherwise "meh" maybe tag with it for near things, but it's there for the shield. Shield 4 is great for manuvering (but also don't think it'll ever summon it's phantasms). You out of formation? Pop a double block and just stroll through the AOEs. And the most important one - Shield 5, Tides of time. Very strong boonstrip with no target cap. Send it into a tight enemy formation then move with them when the projectile is returning. Also alacrity. Difficult to aim so it's not OP, but is very useful if done right.

 

Energy sigils for more endurance on swaps, i use that to dodge more often to survive and all your interrupts additionally boonstrip and steal boons. Some extra boonstrip never hurt anyone right? :tongue:

 

If you don't need some "sustainy" heals, you can modify the build like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiCBs2x7lNwcYfMNWJOuSVtOA-zRJYjRP/ZkpKobpgGPEBZP8Wa/SD-e

 

You get no heals from Wells or shatters, but your heal skill is still strong due to Minstrel's. Instead you get reduced cooldown on Focus pull, feedback when reviving, slow on interrupts (which gives you alacrity), and some boonstrip on block (though it's a phantasm so you know by now what that means).

 

Also, related to your Trailblazer question on previous quote, Trailblazer is not hybrid, it's pure condi with toughness. Viper's is hybrid with power and condi.

 

This is what i run for Open world PvE (not raids or fractals), and it's super fun!

I call it **The Crit Kitten**. :smile:

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiyAExzlNwcYLsNWJW6WZNVA-zRRYbKxMFgYwHSUSgAFCRoCU5BIkslhX2A-e

 

Tons of bleed on crit from your illusions, and you can burst the vets and champions pretty good with it!

[Guilan.5760]

@"Veprovina.4876"

The Support Chrono from metabuilds, I actually thought it was very weird altoghether...

And when he suggested swapping for inspiration I really didn't get it, my intuition said it was stupid but I thought het, There are surely things i don't get...

All in all everything you said about the build is something I considered when I was examining it, but wasn't sure enough of myself to conclude anything.

 

Thank you for your explanation, It kind of confirms that I can trust myself with my personnal evaluations of the builds I look at. So that's a good thing I'm gonna let myself progress naturally from now on. And of course advice is always nice hehe.

 

The builds you're showing me make lots of sense, except maybe that restorative mantra trait in Inspiration ?

I mean you got no mantras in your skills, so that's probably just a mistake -_-

 

I'm currently trying something very similar to your bleed-crit kitten, and I'm trying to get a little better using continuum split in an optimal way.

[Veprovina.4876]

> @"Guilan.5760" said:

> @"Veprovina.4876"

> The Support Chrono from metabuilds, I actually thought it was very weird altoghether...

> And when he suggested swapping for inspiration I really didn't get it, my intuition said it was stupid but I thought het, There are surely things i don't get...

> All in all everything you said about the build is something I considered when I was examining it, but wasn't sure enough of myself to conclude anything.

>

> Thank you for your explanation, It kind of confirms that I can trust myself with my personnal evaluations of the builds I look at. So that's a good thing I'm gonna let myself progress naturally from now on. And of course advice is always nice hehe.

>

> The builds you're showing me make lots of sense, except maybe that restorative mantra trait in Inspiration ?

> I mean you got no mantras in your skills, so that's probably just a mistake -_-

>

> I'm currently trying something very similar to your bleed-crit kitten, and I'm trying to get a little better using continuum split in an optimal way.

 

See? You can definitely trust yourself with builds. :smile:

Yeah, i made a mistake when clicking, i didn't mean to take Restorative Mantras, that trait sucks in general. I mean, it takes a while to cast a mantra for a mediocre heal. And you never want to spam your mantras to have to recast them. If it healed on cast, it would be worth taking, but heal on channel is "meh". And yeah, i don't have any mantras haha!

 

I meant to click the bottom one, phantasms take your conditions when summoned on the pure boonstrip, and Feedback on revive on healing boonstrip build. Good eye! :smile:

 

Anyway, you'll definitely do good, your intuition on the metabattle build was spot on. :smile: