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Please Areanet, Fix the Mesmer !


Guilan.5760

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> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

 

> I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too.

 

Literally no mesmer is saying just add 2 dodges back without other nerfs in other sectors, the problem again falls into IH being too strong. Before Elusive Mind was nerfed no one even batted an eye to IH. Many mesmer mains also agree IH either needs to have an internal CD or nerf the clone output when they have mirage cloak. 2 dodges isn't a luxury it is a necessity, because now people can just wait on mesmer's 1 dodge and have a 8 second window to burst it. As far as mirage cant getting out of AoE isn't a uncommon thing, but the fact that you have to dodge and use jaunt or use a utility to compensate a jump dodge? I don't see other class having to waste their utilities to get out of AoEs.

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> @"Jables.4659" said:

 

> It doesn't change the fact that Condition Mirage has historically been a spec that allows the Mesmer to play incredibly passively while dealing massive amounts of damage. When you can spend the majority of a fight running away, hiding in stealth, and evading/blocking/invulning while your opponent is killed by AI, we have a problem.

 

no one denied that condi ih chaosline mirage was a problem for some time for exactly the reasons you mentioned.

 

but first of all, mirage endurance reggen and mc itself got nerfed before feb patch several times already (what was justified and a better way to reduce dodge uptime than deleting a dodgebar). so the problem was not the overall dodge uptime from mirage anymore, the problem was that condi mirage (and ONLY condimirage using scepter, axe, staff) didnt need (and STILL doesnt need) to dodge offensive to get maximum value out of ambushes/ ih bc of the wrong ambush design (only pure dmg ambushes, no utility main reward which needs different timing to pure defensive dodges/ pure attack evasion and with that forces offensives dodges and with that an active/offensive use of dodges/ambushes and ih clones way more).

 

so as other ppl mentioned, right before feb patch mirage was already in a spot where its pure defensive rotation uptime was lower compared to the meta builds of 6 other classes (it wasnt even meta anymore pre feb patch with the deletion of ci trait) and even more important:

 

**and that you can hear in the linked interview way more detailed but for ppl who prefer to read essays:**

 

the one dodge nerf didnt rly solve any of the mechanical problems of condi ih, but for that totally contradicts the mirage and dodge mechanic and is even a dumb down for the whole dodge and spec mechanic (means makes it less skillful for several reasons on a mechanical lvl) and also butchers all not op 2 dodge builds (which already had a way higher cooldown on defensive mc uses bc of the more utility based ambush design forcing offensive dodging way more).

 

so the one dodge nerf doesnt solve any mechanical issues, only covered them by making ppl afraid to use ih on condi (even tho its still decent and low effort passive side effect dmg on weapons that doesnt require offensive dodging bc of wrong pure dmg based ambush design), so the moment ppl use ih on condi builds again bc they finally get that its not as bad as they think, even with only one dodge, or when the meta doesnt require a lot of condiremove, so em is not more useful anymore, we will have the same mechanical problems with condi ih.

 

and the moment mes/ mirage has enough dmg to take a defensive traitline in addition to the pure defensive dodge gameplay (which condi mirage STILL allowes bc of the only dmg orientated ambush design), **we will be at same spot again even with only one dodge.**

 

even more: it will be even worse, since a one dodgebar forces less tactical, less skillful, more spammy on cd dodgebehavior and makes the whole ambush and ih mechanic even for utility ambushes totally passive since you will never have a dodge rdy when you need it in a fight for an offensive move to outplay or combo with your more utility based ambushes which mostly require dodges at a time you dont need to avoid an attack. so mirage either has 11 or more correct 22 secs idc on either defensive or offensive dodges and that makes all offensive and with that active, tactical and skillful uses of dodges for well timed utility ambush rewards impossible most of the time.

 

with only one dodge the pure dmg part of ambushes is the only part that can have maximum value when only randomly applied as a pure passive side effect from pure attack evasion and with that will be the only ambush desing that will even make sense with only one dodge and that is the exactly wrong direction you want to push mirage mechanics into (=more passive, less tactical, less skillful).

 

maybe its better understandable this way:

 

the one dodge nerf does what the 300sec icd on passive traits does: just highering the cooldown a little but without solving the basic problem that the traitmechanic is passive. players will still get carried and survive undeserved by passive proc endure pain, hard to catch trait, instant reflexes trait etc. the moment ppl use those traits. it just happens less often now but the carry is still there and can change the outcome of a fight completely every 300 secs (and we know that one lost fight thx to a passive carry surviving can change a whole match) .

**and the one dodge nerf is even worse than the 300sec icd step** on a not-dodge-trait bc it just highers the cd without changing the mechanical behavior of the trait, while the one dodge nerf makes the mirage dodge-ambush-ih mechanic **even more passive** by preventing offensive dodging what mirage is meant to be about by basic spec design. since most of the time you will not have enough endurance rdy when you want to dodge offensive for a well timed daze/interrupt with sword ambush for example, since offensive and defensive dodges share the same icd and are for that double punished. but on dodge traits you cannot give an icd only on the passive part, you always will also punish the active, tactical part, that need to be timed well and different from defensive dodges, what never will work with an icd bc now too inconsitent. and that icd on the active part of a dodge trait totally neutralize the positive balancing effect of the higher cd on a still (or now even more) passive mechanic. while pure endurance reggen reduction on a 2 dodge bar highers the cd without preventing tactical and well timed uses of dodges for offensive purposes (as long as endurance reggen itself is not overnerfed too). overall just reworking those passive traits into something more active would make more sense than the overnerf in cooldown with 300 sec icd so that no player uses these traits anymore, just like no condimes uses ih with staff/scepter atm and while the one dodge nerf also kills the high skill requirement and the more active ambush/ ih mechanic on power mirage.

 

since the whole specs high skill requirement and the limitation of defensive mc uses was meant to come from the need and incentive to dodge offensive for well timed outplays with ambushes and offensive combos from ambushes with other weapons- and shatterskills the one dodge nerf now destroys this natural limitation of defensive mc uses (and with that even lowers the cooldown of the strong defensive mc abilites to dodge while stunned and castcovering for power mirage). bc the one dodge nerf prevents those offensive dodges by overlimiting the dodge resource and that has a more negative than positive balancing effect. the now lost ability to dodge offensive for only the ambushes without actually evading an attack is what highers the cooldown for defensive mc dodges more effective/ much better and even in a more skillful way than the one dodge nerf ever could. with only one dodge even condimirage is pressured way more into just defensive dodging and just being happy that you get some low effort extra dmg from mesmers own ambushes and ih clones as a passive side effect from attack evasion since you dont have the resoures anymore to rly dodge offensive without suiciding and you dont have endurance rdy most of the time when you need it for an active and tactical outplay with ambushes/ Ih (for example a well timed daze to interrupt something) since the icd is way too high for offensive dodges with only one dodgebar, esp for a squishy class like mesmer. so mesmer, esp mirage is the class/ spec where the one dodge nerf makes the least sense thematically and mechanically, even tho the strong mc dodge abilites are one of the balance issues (aside from the passive design of condi ambushes).

 

tldr:

 

there are much better ways to rly solve and not just covering the problems with mc and the too passive ambush/ ih design on condiweapons, which highers and not lowers the skill requirement for the spec on a mechanical lvl. and the work/effort they need seems absolutely doable and with that worth doing from anet. (alternative nerf solutions to the one dodge nerf you can find in the linked interview part 2 and in the cmc document we did with the whole community).

 

no one wants to just give 2 dodges back and enable the old condi ih chaosline build again but there are better alternatives to the one dodge nerf, since the one dodge nerf actually doesnt make the mirage mechanics more skilled and less passive, quite the opposite, it instead is dumbing down the whole mechanic and the basic dodge management (less for condi mirage since you cant make that more passive, but it also doesnt solve the problems with that while for all utility based ambushes its a dumb down) simply bc it forces the mirage overall more into just passive, defensive dodge gameplay (pure attack evasion to survive) than a 2 dodge bar and leads to the fact that the mirage will not have enough endurance reggen up the moment it needs to do an offensive and with that active outplay with ambushes (for example a well timed daze to peel for teammates) and with that prevents even more the active, tactical and skillful uses of the dodge/ambushes/ih mechanic for well timed outplays/ combos with utility based ambushes.

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Wait till I have a better PC then a toaster and I will vomit WvW roaming videos with builds with „Alls Well that Ends Well“ and 5 equipped Wells to demonstrate how pathetic these videos are. -.- You need to hit one condi burst to kill a chrono but still, people are posting glass canon meme builds to demonstrate that double burst with Chrono F4 is indeed strong. Why are we still talking about meme characteristic builds as if they where anywhere near meta. I fear the day chrono gets the buff it deserves xD

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> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said:

> > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

> >

> > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

>

>**_How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?_** Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

 

> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said:

> > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

> > > >

> > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

> > >

> > > How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

> >

> > So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid.

>

> I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...]

 

You literally said that. =)

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> @"Salt Mode.3780" said:

 

> Prior to the one dodge nerf mirage was no longer at it's "prime" so I don't know where you are getting into.

 

You falsely claimed that Mirage was never brokenly overpowered prior to the one dodge Nerf. Path of Fire launch up until Feb. 2020 all took place prior to the one-dodge Nerf and I gave you two examples of it being brokenly overpowered during that time. Now it appears you are backpedaling and adding a new qualifier to your previous statement. I am exhaustively aware that pretty much every Mesmer build in existence was drastically toned down throughout 2019 and early 2020. It gives me even more disdain for IH cMirage as this one problematic build resulted in a host of skill based Mesmer builds being butchered.

 

 

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> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said:

> > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

> > >

> > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

> >

> >**_How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?_** Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

>

> > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said:

> > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

> > > > >

> > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

> > > >

> > > > How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

> > >

> > > So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid.

> >

> > I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...]

>

> You literally said that. =)

 

I literally didn't =)

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> @"Jables.4659" said:

>

> > @"Salt Mode.3780" said:

>

> > Prior to the one dodge nerf mirage was no longer at it's "prime" so I don't know where you are getting into.

>

> You falsely claimed that Mirage was never brokenly overpowered prior to the one dodge Nerf. Path of Fire launch up until Feb. 2020 all took place prior to the one-dodge Nerf and I gave you two examples of it being brokenly overpowered during that time. Now it appears you are backpedaling and adding a new qualifier to your previous statement. I am exhaustively aware that pretty much every Mesmer build in existence was drastically toned down throughout 2019 and early 2020. It gives me even more disdain for IH cMirage as this one problematic build resulted in a host of skill based Mesmer builds being butchered.

>

>

 

You gave 1 example of a vague cMirage and a power mirage build which was mostly affected by overtuned phantasm rework and quickly overshadowed by its chrono variation. cMirage had a bunch of unhealthy builds thanks to IH basically giving you dmg for free while traiting full defensive build, but saying it was dominating meta is laughable, there were just as many strong and unhealthy builds of other classes to even things out. I also think shaving off sustain from chaos was the right idea, with or without mirage, it actually should have stayed in the dump it used be in during HoT times. Defensive traitlines should be a crutch while person gets a hang of the class and learns how to use its active defenses properly, not what it evolved into. Even right now chaos and inspiration are the most disgusting traitlines we've ever had imo.

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> @"Senqu.8054" said:

> Wait till I have a better PC then a toaster and I will vomit WvW roaming videos with builds with „Alls Well that Ends Well“ and 5 equipped Wells to demonstrate how pathetic these videos are. -.- You need to hit one condi burst to kill a chrono but still, people are posting glass canon meme builds to demonstrate that double burst with Chrono F4 is indeed strong. Why are we still talking about meme characteristic builds as if they where anywhere near meta. I fear the day chrono gets the buff it deserves xD

 

because the only way mesmer can get anything done is going super meme and hoping the stars align, then you get as much done as other classes for free.

Like fuck me, right after feb patch entire 6+ skill mesmer burst did less damage then 1 barrage from holo.

but hey MeSmEr Is NoT bAd JuSt GiT gUd

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> @"Jables.4659" said:

 

> You falsely claimed that Mirage was never brokenly overpowered prior to the one dodge Nerf. Path of Fire launch up until Feb. 2020 all took place prior to the one-dodge Nerf and I gave you two examples of it being brokenly overpowered during that time. Now it appears you are backpedaling and adding a new qualifier to your previous statement. I am exhaustively aware that pretty much every Mesmer build in existence was drastically toned down throughout 2019 and early 2020. It gives me even more disdain for IH cMirage as this one problematic build resulted in a host of skill based Mesmer builds being butchered.

>

>

 

Again Mirage had consistent nerfs prior to the Feb patch. One was to the clone generate aspect, 2nd was the vigor uptime. I also have stated that in SPvP where things work differently then WvW that condi Mirage would be a problem and I have given examples of Sigil of Cleansing in SPvP cleanses 1 Condi where as WvW cleanses 3. The fact that data are solely being based off of SPvP ruins WvW balance entirely because it is a DIFFERENT GAME MODE. Selective reading is real.

 

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> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said:

> > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

> > > >

> > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

> > >

> > >**_How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?_** Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

> >

> > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said:

> > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

> > > > >

> > > > > How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

> > > >

> > > > So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid.

> > >

> > > I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...]

> >

> > You literally said that. =)

>

> I literally didn't =)

 

 

 

I will try to elaborate more so you can understand.

 

After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying " **How is that a trade off **when you are able to **jaunt, port, or sword leap** away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

 

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> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said:

> > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

> > > > >

> > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

> > > >

> > > >**_How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?_** Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

> > >

> > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said:

> > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

> > > > > >

> > > > > > How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

> > > > >

> > > > > So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid.

> > > >

> > > > I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...]

> > >

> > > You literally said that. =)

> >

> > I literally didn't =)

>

>

>

> I will try to elaborate more so you can understand.

>

> After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying " **How is that a trade off **when you are able to **jaunt, port, or sword leap** away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

>

 

No, that isn't what I am implying. What I am trying to say is that on the list of reasons Mirage could use another dodge, getting out of AOEs was literally never on my list. The thought "if only I had a second dodge to get out of this AOE" has either never happened or happened so infrequently that I don't remember ever having it.

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> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said:

> > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

> > > > >

> > > > >**_How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?_** Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said:

> > > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid.

> > > > >

> > > > > I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...]

> > > >

> > > > You literally said that. =)

> > >

> > > I literally didn't =)

> >

> >

> >

> > I will try to elaborate more so you can understand.

> >

> > After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying " **How is that a trade off **when you are able to **jaunt, port, or sword leap** away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> >

>

> No, that isn't what I am implying. What I am trying to say is that on the list of reasons Mirage could use another dodge, getting out of AOEs was literally never on my list. The thought "if only I had a second dodge to get out of this AOE" has either never happened or happened so infrequently that I don't remember ever having it.

 

was this before or after they removed super-speed from MC ? cuz after removing superspeed cripple + MC means no getting away

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> @"Jables.4659" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

>

> > rich coming from a guy that made post " struggling with revenant "

> > that has problems with energy management on kitten herald off all things, you know. Elite that has 0 energy costs.

>

> Who didn't have issues with energy management when they first started on Rev? You are genuinely trying to call out the wrong person here. I've known @"Strider.7849" for 8 years and know first hand how good he is with nearly every class in the game. I hate one-dodge-mirage just as much as you do, but pretending that the change was completely unwarranted doesn't help. It was absolutely the wrong way to stop cMirage from running a train on the current meta, but I would be shocked if cMirage got its second dodge back without other changes and doesn't dominate the meta.

>

> Its been a common occurrence for people on the Mesmer forums to lash out at people who talk down towards cMirage. It almost always includes something along the lines of "You are not a real Mesmer player" or "You don't know anything about Mesmer". I'm still going to say it: Condition Mirage with 2 dodges performs way too well for how little skill is required to play it. I am aware that there are some genuinely skilled players who like Condition Mirage just as there are some genuinely skilled players who like Necromancer. It doesn't change the fact that Condition Mirage has historically been a spec that allows the Mesmer to play incredibly passively while dealing massive amounts of damage. When you can spend the majority of a fight running away, hiding in stealth, and evading/blocking/invulning while your opponent is killed by AI, we have a problem.

>

>

 

Just rework the staff ambush. Instead of proccing full cancer on 10 targets make it more of an utility tool.

For example, sword has mobility + interrupt (and mesmer mobility is quite low tbh, even a reaper with rune of speed can outrun you with or without blink), greatsword has might\vuln stacking. It's nothing you can use to win a duel per-se, but are tools to create more gameplay opportunities. That's not true for staff; dodge, press 1, free cancer. Absolutely wrong. So, either rework staff ambush (which has always been the greatest offender) or place some tradeoff for mirage; for exampe, you get much stronger clones, but you can have 2 at most, instead of 3.

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I might be out of tune, so please excuse my question in advance.

How is staff ambush free cancer?

 

I remember cMirage being a really strong spec months ago, massive dominator with FB at their release. But it wasn't just the staff thing, it was many aspects.

 

Now, about staff- is it that cancerous?

Not only it is a slow projectile, with a full 1 second animation, but it's only only 3 condis of one stack each (relatively low duration too) with a specific requirement to activate.

Now of course with infinite horizon there is a potential for higher damage, but it's not that worse either given the limited scenario where 10 targets actually matter, and where it is realistic to keep your illusions alive long enough, no?

 

Lots of target is strong in OW PvE or some limited WvW scenario, but the intensity isn't really high.

And, you talk of duel, but then refer to 10 targets... I don't quite follow the thinking there. =O

 

Many other skills, even autoattacks for other classes, can be as dangerous as this one, or actually even much more.

 

I feel I'm missing a piece of the puzzle in terms of how cancerous it can actually be. I mean, DH bursting 30 stacks of burn in 5-6 seconds is dangerous, but that staff ambush on mirage? It's not trash... But it's not exactly very good either. Were there specific ways it was being used that made it broken?

 

My questions are genuine. I've been trying to build a Mirage for a few weeks based on either sword or staff ambush skills, and yeaaah I'm not getting really good results compared to other classes, models, approach.

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Condi Mirage can be very annoying in WvW but that is mostly because of dire and trailblazer stats that give extreme survivability while having almost maximum condition damage. The condition damage itself isn't the issue, but the strong defense combined with stealth and detargets make it unfun to play against.

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> @"Yoci.2481" said:

> Condi Mirage can be very annoying in WvW but that is mostly because of dire and trailblazer stats that give extreme survivability while having almost maximum condition damage. The condition damage itself isn't the issue, but the strong defense combined with stealth and detargets make it unfun to play against.

 

Not just that, wvw covers cmirage faults.

Trailblazer to cover for low protection and no toughness that pvp mesmer gets.

Energy sigil and energy food to cover for 1 dodge and nerfed vigor uptimes.

And tormenting runes for healing to cover the fact that mirage has one of the worst healings in the game.

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> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

 

> Not just that, wvw covers cmirage faults.

> Trailblazer to cover for low protection and no toughness that pvp mesmer gets.

> Energy sigil and energy food to cover for 1 dodge and nerfed vigor uptimes.

> And tormenting runes for healing to cover the fact that mirage has one of the worst healings in the game.

 

Actually no energy sigil over caps the endurance bar so no it doesn't cover it, dodge recharge bar is still 8 seconds even with vigor and energy food.

Torment runes are neglectable in terms of heal because now you only have one dodge you either dodge for dmg or you dodge to avoid dmg there is no doing both.

The only thing that is correct is yes trailblazer covers the defensive part of it. Other then that condi mirage in WvW is ignorable and avoidable.

Fact that our dodge bar requires 8 seconds to recharge while weapon swap is 10 seconds and sigil of cleansing is 3 condi remove (torment, burn, confusion) condi mirage does no damage.

That is unless you decide to 1 v 1 a condi mirage then yea maybe it could beat you after 20+ min of fighting.

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> @"Yoci.2481" said:

> Condi Mirage can be very annoying in WvW but that is mostly because of dire and trailblazer stats that give extreme survivability while having almost maximum condition damage. The condition damage itself isn't the issue, but the strong defense combined with stealth and detargets make it unfun to play against.

 

I mean, doesn't Trailblazer do that for every condi profession? It's not unique to Mirage....

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