Yoci.2481 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > Not just that, wvw covers cmirage faults. > > Trailblazer to cover for low protection and no toughness that pvp mesmer gets. > > Energy sigil and energy food to cover for 1 dodge and nerfed vigor uptimes. > > And tormenting runes for healing to cover the fact that mirage has one of the worst healings in the game. > > Actually no energy sigil over caps the endurance bar so no it doesn't cover it, dodge recharge bar is still 8 seconds even with vigor and energy food. > Torment runes are neglectable in terms of heal because now you only have one dodge you either dodge for dmg or you dodge to avoid dmg there is no doing both. > The only thing that is correct is yes trailblazer covers the defensive part of it. Other then that condi mirage in WvW is ignorable and avoidable. > Fact that our dodge bar requires 8 seconds to recharge while weapon swap is 10 seconds and sigil of cleansing is 3 condi remove (torment, burn, confusion) condi mirage does no damage. > That is unless you decide to 1 v 1 a condi mirage then yea maybe it could beat you after 20+ min of fighting. It is true that most builds can ignore a condi mirage as condi Mirage has little chase potential and low burst. A solo roamer that fights for an objective like a camp doesn't have that option, though. Many builds have a hard time against such a condi Mirage, especially in competent hands. It can be pretty oppressive in those cases. And that are the moments most people think about when they hear calls for giving Mirage the second dodge back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salt Mode.3780 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 yes but those asking for a 2nd dodge isnt asking for a freebie like other classes asking for buffs. We are literally asking for a tradeoff, either give IH a ICD or nerf the amount of might and vuln on gs ambush or condi stacks on staff. Mesmer mains already know there is no free lunch just look at chrono, we gave up distort on split so we can shatter with no clones again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradorin.6217 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Yoci.2481" said: > > Condi Mirage can be very annoying in WvW but that is mostly because of dire and trailblazer stats that give extreme survivability while having almost maximum condition damage. The condition damage itself isn't the issue, but the strong defense combined with stealth and detargets make it unfun to play against. > > Not just that, wvw covers cmirage faults. > Trailblazer to cover for low protection and no toughness that pvp mesmer gets. > Energy sigil and energy food to cover for 1 dodge and nerfed vigor uptimes. > And tormenting runes for healing to cover the fact that mirage has one of the worst healings in the game. I would actually say that energy food in wvw is a waste to use with one dodge in wvw. Why? because you have no overflow space for the energy. You get one dodge max so if you use energy food you are kinda wasting you food because you will only get benefit when your dodge bar isnt full but with one dodge you hold your dodge most of the time. THis means most of the time the food has no benefit. ;) Use expertise instead or clove or peppercorn like everyone else. thats my 2cp on food in wvw for one dodge. I think you may find as I have that energy food kinda sucks in wvw on Mirage now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > Not just that, wvw covers cmirage faults. > > Trailblazer to cover for low protection and no toughness that pvp mesmer gets. > > Energy sigil and energy food to cover for 1 dodge and nerfed vigor uptimes. > > And tormenting runes for healing to cover the fact that mirage has one of the worst healings in the game. > > Actually no energy sigil over caps the endurance bar so no it doesn't cover it, dodge recharge bar is still 8 seconds even with vigor and energy food. > Torment runes are neglectable in terms of heal because now you only have one dodge you either dodge for dmg or you dodge to avoid dmg there is no doing both. > The only thing that is correct is yes trailblazer covers the defensive part of it. Other then that condi mirage in WvW is ignorable and avoidable. > Fact that our dodge bar requires 8 seconds to recharge while weapon swap is 10 seconds and sigil of cleansing is 3 condi remove (torment, burn, confusion) condi mirage does no damage. > That is unless you decide to 1 v 1 a condi mirage then yea maybe it could beat you after 20+ min of fighting. tormenting runes heal for 171 per torment applies, so that 1 scepter block that lands is 850 healing. And if we go to extremes and say you land IH axe with 3 clones that is 12 torment for 2050 healing ( this is 1/3 of a healing skill btw ) add in staff/axe/scepter autos, and other skills and torment runes will double mirages healing output. Its definitely not neglectable. And even without IH its constant stream of healing that other classes have built into their kit and mesmer doesnt. And rune fills that gap. Axe 2 for axample is 4 torment for over 600hp healing, 4clone shatter with torment on shatter trait is another 600+ healing. And it adds up and up and up and up and ends up healing more then healing skill. PASSIVELY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradorin.6217 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > Not just that, wvw covers cmirage faults. > > > Trailblazer to cover for low protection and no toughness that pvp mesmer gets. > > > Energy sigil and energy food to cover for 1 dodge and nerfed vigor uptimes. > > > And tormenting runes for healing to cover the fact that mirage has one of the worst healings in the game. > > > > Actually no energy sigil over caps the endurance bar so no it doesn't cover it, dodge recharge bar is still 8 seconds even with vigor and energy food. > > Torment runes are neglectable in terms of heal because now you only have one dodge you either dodge for dmg or you dodge to avoid dmg there is no doing both. > > The only thing that is correct is yes trailblazer covers the defensive part of it. Other then that condi mirage in WvW is ignorable and avoidable. > > Fact that our dodge bar requires 8 seconds to recharge while weapon swap is 10 seconds and sigil of cleansing is 3 condi remove (torment, burn, confusion) condi mirage does no damage. > > That is unless you decide to 1 v 1 a condi mirage then yea maybe it could beat you after 20+ min of fighting. > > tormenting runes heal for 171 per torment applies, so that 1 scepter block that lands is 850 healing. > And if we go to extremes and say you land IH axe with 3 clones that is 12 torment for 2050 healing ( this is 1/3 of a healing skill btw ) > add in staff/axe/scepter autos, and other skills and torment runes will double mirages healing output. Its definitely not neglectable. > > And even without IH its constant stream of healing that other classes have built into their kit and mesmer doesnt. And rune fills that gap. > Axe 2 for axample is 4 torment for over 600hp healing, 4clone shatter with torment on shatter trait is another 600+ healing. > And it adds up and up and up and up and ends up healing more then healing skill. PASSIVELY. The torrment is only applied on block when facing the opponent. It is not without risk to say the least considering how many attacks are un-blockable to begin with and considering these days (wasnt always the case) the mes is forced to face them and let them get in range and use an attack and hope/gamble its blockable to begin with. Likewise axe forces the mirage to get up in the face of the opponent to continue to apply torrment. That said, I agree torrment runes can be useful. Perplexity can get you better burst but some times you really need the sustain. At least if you like to run dueling for confusion on rupt like me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradorin.6217 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > > > > >**_How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?_** Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > > > > > > > > So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid. > > > > > > > > > > I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...] > > > > > > > > You literally said that. =) > > > > > > I literally didn't =) > > > > > > > > I will try to elaborate more so you can understand. > > > > After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying " **How is that a trade off **when you are able to **jaunt, port, or sword leap** away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > No, that isn't what I am implying. What I am trying to say is that on the list of reasons Mirage could use another dodge, getting out of AOEs was literally never on my list. The thought "if only I had a second dodge to get out of this AOE" has either never happened or happened so infrequently that I don't remember ever having it. Thats funny I guess you have not played much Mirage in the last year or two. That explains your perspective on its balance, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > Not just that, wvw covers cmirage faults. > > > > Trailblazer to cover for low protection and no toughness that pvp mesmer gets. > > > > Energy sigil and energy food to cover for 1 dodge and nerfed vigor uptimes. > > > > And tormenting runes for healing to cover the fact that mirage has one of the worst healings in the game. > > > > > > Actually no energy sigil over caps the endurance bar so no it doesn't cover it, dodge recharge bar is still 8 seconds even with vigor and energy food. > > > Torment runes are neglectable in terms of heal because now you only have one dodge you either dodge for dmg or you dodge to avoid dmg there is no doing both. > > > The only thing that is correct is yes trailblazer covers the defensive part of it. Other then that condi mirage in WvW is ignorable and avoidable. > > > Fact that our dodge bar requires 8 seconds to recharge while weapon swap is 10 seconds and sigil of cleansing is 3 condi remove (torment, burn, confusion) condi mirage does no damage. > > > That is unless you decide to 1 v 1 a condi mirage then yea maybe it could beat you after 20+ min of fighting. > > > > tormenting runes heal for 171 per torment applies, so that 1 scepter block that lands is 850 healing. > > And if we go to extremes and say you land IH axe with 3 clones that is 12 torment for 2050 healing ( this is 1/3 of a healing skill btw ) > > add in staff/axe/scepter autos, and other skills and torment runes will double mirages healing output. Its definitely not neglectable. > > > > And even without IH its constant stream of healing that other classes have built into their kit and mesmer doesnt. And rune fills that gap. > > Axe 2 for axample is 4 torment for over 600hp healing, 4clone shatter with torment on shatter trait is another 600+ healing. > > And it adds up and up and up and up and ends up healing more then healing skill. PASSIVELY. > > The torrment is only applied on block when facing the opponent. It is not without risk to say the least considering how many attacks are un-blockable to begin with and considering these days (wasnt always the case) the mes is forced to face them and let them get in range and use an attack and hope/gamble its blockable to begin with. Likewise axe forces the mirage to get up in the face of the opponent to continue to apply torrment. That said, I agree torrment runes can be useful. Perplexity can get you better burst but some times you really need the sustain. At least if you like to run dueling for confusion on rupt like me. you decide what you use scepter 2 against and not your oponent, if the attack is not blockable then dont use scepter block on it, and use other things to evade like jaunt, dodge, axe 3, rupt them ETC. All classes have VERY limited unblockable, most classes dont even have it to begin with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradorin.6217 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > Not just that, wvw covers cmirage faults. > > > > > Trailblazer to cover for low protection and no toughness that pvp mesmer gets. > > > > > Energy sigil and energy food to cover for 1 dodge and nerfed vigor uptimes. > > > > > And tormenting runes for healing to cover the fact that mirage has one of the worst healings in the game. > > > > > > > > Actually no energy sigil over caps the endurance bar so no it doesn't cover it, dodge recharge bar is still 8 seconds even with vigor and energy food. > > > > Torment runes are neglectable in terms of heal because now you only have one dodge you either dodge for dmg or you dodge to avoid dmg there is no doing both. > > > > The only thing that is correct is yes trailblazer covers the defensive part of it. Other then that condi mirage in WvW is ignorable and avoidable. > > > > Fact that our dodge bar requires 8 seconds to recharge while weapon swap is 10 seconds and sigil of cleansing is 3 condi remove (torment, burn, confusion) condi mirage does no damage. > > > > That is unless you decide to 1 v 1 a condi mirage then yea maybe it could beat you after 20+ min of fighting. > > > > > > tormenting runes heal for 171 per torment applies, so that 1 scepter block that lands is 850 healing. > > > And if we go to extremes and say you land IH axe with 3 clones that is 12 torment for 2050 healing ( this is 1/3 of a healing skill btw ) > > > add in staff/axe/scepter autos, and other skills and torment runes will double mirages healing output. Its definitely not neglectable. > > > > > > And even without IH its constant stream of healing that other classes have built into their kit and mesmer doesnt. And rune fills that gap. > > > Axe 2 for axample is 4 torment for over 600hp healing, 4clone shatter with torment on shatter trait is another 600+ healing. > > > And it adds up and up and up and up and ends up healing more then healing skill. PASSIVELY. > > > > The torrment is only applied on block when facing the opponent. It is not without risk to say the least considering how many attacks are un-blockable to begin with and considering these days (wasnt always the case) the mes is forced to face them and let them get in range and use an attack and hope/gamble its blockable to begin with. Likewise axe forces the mirage to get up in the face of the opponent to continue to apply torrment. That said, I agree torrment runes can be useful. Perplexity can get you better burst but some times you really need the sustain. At least if you like to run dueling for confusion on rupt like me. > > you decide what you use scepter 2 against and not your oponent, if the attack is not blockable then dont use scepter block on it, and use other things to evade like jaunt, dodge, axe 3, rupt them ETC. > All classes have VERY limited unblockable, most classes dont even have it to begin with I sorta agree, but you are talking about using it for a 850 heal.I would actually argue that when you need a heal you probably have a limited window in which to use the block and get a heal if at all. Im just pointing out its not like a mesmer can just run around with torrment runes and hit 3 and expect to get a heal even if the opponent if birraging them with damage they need to actually be facing the opponent and make sure they will hit and trigger the effect. Which isnt just passive random unskilled play, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Not just that, wvw covers cmirage faults. > > > > > > Trailblazer to cover for low protection and no toughness that pvp mesmer gets. > > > > > > Energy sigil and energy food to cover for 1 dodge and nerfed vigor uptimes. > > > > > > And tormenting runes for healing to cover the fact that mirage has one of the worst healings in the game. > > > > > > > > > > Actually no energy sigil over caps the endurance bar so no it doesn't cover it, dodge recharge bar is still 8 seconds even with vigor and energy food. > > > > > Torment runes are neglectable in terms of heal because now you only have one dodge you either dodge for dmg or you dodge to avoid dmg there is no doing both. > > > > > The only thing that is correct is yes trailblazer covers the defensive part of it. Other then that condi mirage in WvW is ignorable and avoidable. > > > > > Fact that our dodge bar requires 8 seconds to recharge while weapon swap is 10 seconds and sigil of cleansing is 3 condi remove (torment, burn, confusion) condi mirage does no damage. > > > > > That is unless you decide to 1 v 1 a condi mirage then yea maybe it could beat you after 20+ min of fighting. > > > > > > > > tormenting runes heal for 171 per torment applies, so that 1 scepter block that lands is 850 healing. > > > > And if we go to extremes and say you land IH axe with 3 clones that is 12 torment for 2050 healing ( this is 1/3 of a healing skill btw ) > > > > add in staff/axe/scepter autos, and other skills and torment runes will double mirages healing output. Its definitely not neglectable. > > > > > > > > And even without IH its constant stream of healing that other classes have built into their kit and mesmer doesnt. And rune fills that gap. > > > > Axe 2 for axample is 4 torment for over 600hp healing, 4clone shatter with torment on shatter trait is another 600+ healing. > > > > And it adds up and up and up and up and ends up healing more then healing skill. PASSIVELY. > > > > > > The torrment is only applied on block when facing the opponent. It is not without risk to say the least considering how many attacks are un-blockable to begin with and considering these days (wasnt always the case) the mes is forced to face them and let them get in range and use an attack and hope/gamble its blockable to begin with. Likewise axe forces the mirage to get up in the face of the opponent to continue to apply torrment. That said, I agree torrment runes can be useful. Perplexity can get you better burst but some times you really need the sustain. At least if you like to run dueling for confusion on rupt like me. > > > > you decide what you use scepter 2 against and not your oponent, if the attack is not blockable then dont use scepter block on it, and use other things to evade like jaunt, dodge, axe 3, rupt them ETC. > > All classes have VERY limited unblockable, most classes dont even have it to begin with > > I sorta agree, but you are talking about using it for a 850 heal.I would actually argue that when you need a heal you probably have a limited window in which to use the block and get a heal if at all. Im just pointing out its not like a mesmer can just run around with torrment runes and hit 3 and expect to get a heal even if the opponent if birraging them with damage they need to actually be facing the opponent and make sure they will hit and trigger the effect. Which isnt just passive random unskilled play, I know, It doesnt give burst healing. It gives sustain. And massive amounts of it. I bet it doubles mirages healing output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronald McDonald.8165 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > > > > > > >**_How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?_** Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid. > > > > > > > > > > > > I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...] > > > > > > > > > > You literally said that. =) > > > > > > > > I literally didn't =) > > > > > > > > > > > > I will try to elaborate more so you can understand. > > > > > > After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying " **How is that a trade off **when you are able to **jaunt, port, or sword leap** away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > No, that isn't what I am implying. What I am trying to say is that on the list of reasons Mirage could use another dodge, getting out of AOEs was literally never on my list. The thought "if only I had a second dodge to get out of this AOE" has either never happened or happened so infrequently that I don't remember ever having it. > > Thats funny I guess you have not played much Mirage in the last year or two. That explains your perspective on its balance, however. I have played Condi Mirage and Condi Chrono near exclusively for the past 8 months or so. I never have played the easy classes in MMOs and never will. I have always enjoyed being the underdog and outplaying my opponents. I don't want or expect to have easy handed to me on a silver platter, but I guess that explains the difference on our perspectives for balance. As I said earlier "I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too." So you see, I am very far from alone on my sentiments regarding Mirage balance. Like Helseth, I think Mirage's resustain is the bigger issue for Mirage than a second dodge. Mirage has one of the worst heals in the game, it's on a long cooldown, and the only real resustain Mirage and Mesmer really has is to exit combat. The only other class that operates like that is thief, but thief can disengage (and reengage) MUCH easier than Mesmer. That is the reason Mesmer is essentially useless on maps like Skyhammer, because disengage is next to impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salt Mode.3780 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 Again basing balance based on SPvP for another PvP platform like WvW is wrong. Point node capture vs an open world PvP is 2 separate things and should be balanced accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoser.7245 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > “healing that other classes have built into their kit and mesmer doesn’t” That is. Other two professions profit highly the tormenting runes but they also have a great built in sustain in different ways. Add that in WvW our illusions are useless mainly. Then add those runes doesn’t exist in PvP, so the niche where you are competitive against other professions is too small. So, sustain is the key but not only for Mirage, for Core Mesmer and should be available for all our specializations because the small one we have come from Inspiration trait line, force you to use a defensive trait line because you also lack of a good clean condition. Also, the healing from mantras is something you never want to use as it means you used all their charges. Firebrands have a better version of mantras now with three charges which is a lot more valuable to manage them. For me Chaos trait line should be renamed and add there the offensive sustain to the Core Mesmer. > @"Yoci.2481" said: >It is true that most builds can ignore a condi mirage as condi Mirage has >little chase potential and low burst. A solo roamer that fights for an >objective like a camp doesn't have that option, though. Many builds have >a hard time against such a condi Mirage, especially in competent hands. >It can be pretty oppressive in those cases. And that are the moments >most people think about when they hear calls for giving Mirage the >second dodge back. And? You cannot expect that all builds work for all. But today things have changed a lot, you have the mount, you have templates and you can carry more than one build. If you are going to take a camp solo… Why don’t you take less than 10 seconds to change to a roamer build? Or at least one that let you disengage and leave the combat with a bit of brain? Mesmer are not the best thing chasing… I don’t watch people saying… Oh, poor mesmers that are useless under AOE… We should accept some tradeoff and nerfs to let them be better and usefull, competitive, or… Buff mesmers illusions with a better survival!!! In fact, the last thing a readed few days ago were petitions of generalized buffs for all professions minus mesmers… in the PvP forum and that a Mirage with ZERO dodges will be the best one for the game. None there argued against that. So, the feeling is that Mesmer should be disabled, something ignorable or used as environmental artificial intelligence bots from Anet to fill the map. > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > yes but those asking for a 2nd dodge isnt asking for a freebie like other >classes asking for buffs. We are literally asking for a tradeoff, either give >IH a ICD or nerf the amount of might and vuln on gs ambush or condi >stacks on staff. Mesmer mains already know there is no free lunch just >look at chrono, we gave up distort on split so we can shatter with no >clones again. So, we have learned nothing. Oh yes, we accept tradeoffs and things that underperform us for what? Be balanced? Then after do that... they watch something else they don’t like and we suffer double nerf because they almost never revert a change and we end f***ed as usual and waiting years for nothing. NO thanks, we did it in the past and we are still suffering all the accumulated nerfs without reverting some nerfs to prevent us to end overnerfed. The developers didn't give a shit, they didn't spend a minute on it and revert previous changes to not overnerf several things. Hopefully, today they seem to not listen these type of suggestions. > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: >"I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty >easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge >to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. Unhealthy >mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't >enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to >be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other >classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too." That sounds familiar for me. Every time that something makes mesmers effective ends nerfed or removed with the same unhealthy history and same people involved. If the next changes to the mesmer make the profession only profitable for them, they will be the happiest gw2 players in the world and the true Mesmers!!! You can feel the ego there. Sadly for them, the nerf was so unfortunate and big that nobody wanted one in a competitive tournament where real money and prizes are up for grabs... so they ended playing something else in those tournaments and curiosly those professions with and "Unhealthy >mechanic". SO funny... why then they played unhealthy ones if they care a lot about healthy mechanics? Wouldn't they have preferred to play the two dodges "Unhealthy Mirage"? What irony... or maybe hypocrisy not playing something healthier? Or is it that verbiage and honor are soon forgotten when money is involved? Devs recognized that it was the easy solution to kick mesmers out and a band aid to not dedicate (waste?) time in research a proper and fair solution. But they kept others, looked for excuses and didn't give a damn. -------------------- For now i only can remember all the things we have lost again. Proper phantasms and their builds, effective glamours and their builds, the three charges in our mantras that are now in the Firebrand hands. Our lost of CC capabilities through traits without add useful ones to our skills. Nerf to our defensive and stealth capabilities, etc. While in the way others got all that, like some portals, better stealth, better CC, better mantras, the sustain that we never had, etc. But hey, it doesn't matter, I think that continuing to debate the same thing is wasting time. Maybe there's something better to talk about the day the next expansion is released. Perhaps the next mesmer will be a troubadour with a harp in his hands to entertain allies and a machine that lauch healing and support potions in the back as a weapon... Sure that a lot of people will be happy with that!!! At this point our new specialization should already be defined and have a roadmap in its development. Which one will be? Probably someone reading this already know it. 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Salt Mode.3780 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Not that I dont agree to the point you made with tradeoff but a tradeoff is better then a straight up nerf with no reasoning behind it. This has been apparent in the past and no doubt in the future. It is clear that the Devs dont know how they want mesmer to work and I for one am terrified at the EoD has to bring for mesmers. Us mesmer mains can only wish for tradeoffs because that is all we can have we have never had a straight up buff without something important taken away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veprovina.4876 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > Again basing balance based on SPvP for another PvP platform like WvW is wrong. Point node capture vs an open world PvP is 2 separate things and should be balanced accordingly. Exactly! It's one thing to have to pay attention to about 5 players max, and another thing when you have to dodge AOE spam from 50 players at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradorin.6217 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > >**_How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?_** Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...] > > > > > > > > > > > > You literally said that. =) > > > > > > > > > > I literally didn't =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will try to elaborate more so you can understand. > > > > > > > > After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying " **How is that a trade off **when you are able to **jaunt, port, or sword leap** away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > > > No, that isn't what I am implying. What I am trying to say is that on the list of reasons Mirage could use another dodge, getting out of AOEs was literally never on my list. The thought "if only I had a second dodge to get out of this AOE" has either never happened or happened so infrequently that I don't remember ever having it. > > > > Thats funny I guess you have not played much Mirage in the last year or two. That explains your perspective on its balance, however. > > I have played Condi Mirage and Condi Chrono near exclusively for the past 8 months or so. I never have played the easy classes in MMOs and never will. I have always enjoyed being the underdog and outplaying my opponents. I don't want or expect to have easy handed to me on a silver platter, but I guess that explains the difference on our perspectives for balance. > > As I said earlier "I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too." > > So you see, I am very far from alone on my sentiments regarding Mirage balance. Like Helseth, I think Mirage's resustain is the bigger issue for Mirage than a second dodge. Mirage has one of the worst heals in the game, it's on a long cooldown, and the only real resustain Mirage and Mesmer really has is to exit combat. The only other class that operates like that is thief, but thief can disengage (and reengage) MUCH easier than Mesmer. That is the reason Mesmer is essentially useless on maps like Skyhammer, because disengage is next to impossible. > > You seem to primarily be looking at things from a rPvP perspective which is fine. However, you arent going to run into the same issues with AoE and cleaves pvp vs wvw, still the issue I pointed out has yet to actually be adressed or refuted by you. All you have done now is quote two well known players making general comments that dont address the specifics that I am talking about that you seem to want to claim are wrong without actually bringing any relevent counter argument. You simply claim its never been an issue for you so it must not be a real thing. Which is a very poor argument especially considering how common it is for mesmers to point to the lack of mobility from MC and how it creates an obvious and unescapable downside when caught in AoE and cleave. The generalized and very old quotes are pretty pointless to me as a counter argument since it is a broad generalization that neither supports or refutes your argument or mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronald McDonald.8165 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >**_How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?_** Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You literally said that. =) > > > > > > > > > > > > I literally didn't =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will try to elaborate more so you can understand. > > > > > > > > > > After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying " **How is that a trade off **when you are able to **jaunt, port, or sword leap** away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, that isn't what I am implying. What I am trying to say is that on the list of reasons Mirage could use another dodge, getting out of AOEs was literally never on my list. The thought "if only I had a second dodge to get out of this AOE" has either never happened or happened so infrequently that I don't remember ever having it. > > > > > > Thats funny I guess you have not played much Mirage in the last year or two. That explains your perspective on its balance, however. > > > > I have played Condi Mirage and Condi Chrono near exclusively for the past 8 months or so. I never have played the easy classes in MMOs and never will. I have always enjoyed being the underdog and outplaying my opponents. I don't want or expect to have easy handed to me on a silver platter, but I guess that explains the difference on our perspectives for balance. > > > > As I said earlier "I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too." > > > > So you see, I am very far from alone on my sentiments regarding Mirage balance. Like Helseth, I think Mirage's resustain is the bigger issue for Mirage than a second dodge. Mirage has one of the worst heals in the game, it's on a long cooldown, and the only real resustain Mirage and Mesmer really has is to exit combat. The only other class that operates like that is thief, but thief can disengage (and reengage) MUCH easier than Mesmer. That is the reason Mesmer is essentially useless on maps like Skyhammer, because disengage is next to impossible. > > > > > > You seem to primarily be looking at things from a rPvP perspective which is fine. However, you arent going to run into the same issues with AoE and cleaves pvp vs wvw, still the issue I pointed out has yet to actually be adressed or refuted by you. All you have done now is quote two well known players making general comments that dont address the specifics that I am talking about that you seem to want to claim are wrong without actually bringing any relevent counter argument. You simply claim its never been an issue for you so it must not be a real thing. Which is a very poor argument especially considering how common it is for mesmers to point to the lack of mobility from MC and how it creates an obvious and unescapable downside when caught in AoE and cleave. The generalized and very old quotes are pretty pointless to me as a counter argument since it is a broad generalization that neither supports or refutes your argument or mine. So we are talking about WvW and not PvP? That is fine. Like I said I have been playing Chronomancer and Mirage almost exclusively. That includes in both a WvW and PvP environment. You dismiss utilities to escape AOEs as being valid. I can prove that wrong very easily. Play Chronomancer in WvW. Find out how much more punishing it is to play as Chronomancer in WvW when you don't have all those utilities that Mirage has to escape cleave and AOE. A second dodge does not come close to removing you from the situations nearly as well as what you have with Mirage. As Chronomancer if you are stuck in cleave and AOE you have one single option and that is to teleport out, if that is on CD you have 0 options. As a Mirage you have many actual options. You can jaunt, you can MC, you can axe 2 for mobility, you can port with axe 3 to avoid it, you can sword ambush, you can distort. You have soooooooo much more leeway as Mirage to find yourself in those kind of situations and survive because of it's kit. Play Chronomancer and see just how wrong you are in assuming that having 2 regular dodges makes up for all of those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salt Mode.3780 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 The whole point is mirage dodge is stationary which requires jaunt and other utilities to make up for a jump dodge distance. 1 Jump Dodge = mirage dodge + utility. Mirage dodge also gets crippled by well cripple and chill anything that slows down movement speed whereas a jump dodge is a jump dodge you get that distance regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senqu.8054 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Other elite specs gain 15 new skills to use, free dmg modifiers that scale to unbelievable numbers, one more dodge, the ability to stack 25 might or hold quickness without effort for minutes and and and but no, mirage has to give up its elite skill to gain access to a port that has to be used as second dodge now... what a great way to balance the game and even better that the last players left want a one dodge nerf, which literally destroys the feeling of the gameplay, instead of changing other things while celebrating every downgrade this incompetent company is doing. As if power mirage was really viable before the nerf -.- god damn it I just want a viable power Mesmer build again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradorin.6217 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >**_How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things?_** Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Salt Mode.3780" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > the only way for a stationary dodge work the same way as a normal dodge to evade aoe or multiple aoe is to give it superspeed instead of just a normal speed boon but honestly tht would be too strong so i dont mind it being hindered by cripple or chill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right its ok to have a trade off like getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleaves. But ohh wait that WAS the trade off before Anet decided to ignore it and say it didnt have one, and removed a dodge, etc, etc. Meanwhile many in the community are willing to suggest it was Ok for people who decided to run condi gear and not ok for people who run power gear which ultumatly muted the classes ability to object and actually helped kill the class. Good job all. Thanks everyone! LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is that a trade off when you are able to jaunt, port, or sword leap away from those things? Mirage dodge is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed if Mirage is to have two dodges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So your apparent counter argument is that Mirage should only have 1 dodge because it has utility skills that can add mobility to a build the same way that pretty much every class and elite spec has including core Mes and chrono along with thief, dd, de, guard, fb, dh, necro, reaper, scourge, rev, herald, renegade, ranger, druid, soulbeast, on and on. your point seems invalid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I literally never said any of those things, but acting like Mirage can't get out of AOEs is kind of silly. Mirage is the weakest class right now, but I don't agree though that adding the 2nd dodge back is what is good and healthy for the game. [...] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You literally said that. =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I literally didn't =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will try to elaborate more so you can understand. > > > > > > > > > > > > After I said that "getting to attack during the dodges evade frame in exchange for being more vulnerable to certain types of attacks like ground AoE and any large radius cleave" was always a valid trade off. In other words, After I suggest, the lack or horizontal mobility from using Mirage Cloak (MC) was always a valid trade-off which you (Ronald) responded saying " **How is that a trade off **when you are able to **jaunt, port, or sword leap** away from those things?" So in effect your are asserting a counter argument that disagrees and asserts that since Mirage has mobility utilities like jaunt, port, sword leap ambush (ironic) it doesn't need the second dodge. Additionally, your statement implies that Mirage has as much ability to get out of AoE as other classes due to utility skills like jaunt, portal, etc. However, as I pointed out every class has similar mobility skills on weapons and as utility skills that can also be used in the same way, the difference is those other classes ALL get 2+ dodges that DO provide them horizontal movement when they gain evade frame, Mirage doesn't. Therefore, as I said before, you are apparently asserting that Mirage doesnt need 2 dodges because it has utility and weapon skills that add mobility. I countered by pointing out that every class has that in addition to the 2+ normal dodges which would seem to clearly make one dodge an invalid trade off in that its like a double penalty unlike any other classes trade off. Also dodge as others keep pointing out is a core ability that arguably shouldn't have ever been removed because its a core ability. Also while on the topic I will restate that that MC has a trade-off build in as much as any other elite spec even with 2 dodges. Not sure why you refuse to admit the fact, but its ok.> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, that isn't what I am implying. What I am trying to say is that on the list of reasons Mirage could use another dodge, getting out of AOEs was literally never on my list. The thought "if only I had a second dodge to get out of this AOE" has either never happened or happened so infrequently that I don't remember ever having it. > > > > > > > > Thats funny I guess you have not played much Mirage in the last year or two. That explains your perspective on its balance, however. > > > > > > I have played Condi Mirage and Condi Chrono near exclusively for the past 8 months or so. I never have played the easy classes in MMOs and never will. I have always enjoyed being the underdog and outplaying my opponents. I don't want or expect to have easy handed to me on a silver platter, but I guess that explains the difference on our perspectives for balance. > > > > > > As I said earlier "I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. Unhealthy mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too." > > > > > > So you see, I am very far from alone on my sentiments regarding Mirage balance. Like Helseth, I think Mirage's resustain is the bigger issue for Mirage than a second dodge. Mirage has one of the worst heals in the game, it's on a long cooldown, and the only real resustain Mirage and Mesmer really has is to exit combat. The only other class that operates like that is thief, but thief can disengage (and reengage) MUCH easier than Mesmer. That is the reason Mesmer is essentially useless on maps like Skyhammer, because disengage is next to impossible. > > > > > > > > > > You seem to primarily be looking at things from a rPvP perspective which is fine. However, you arent going to run into the same issues with AoE and cleaves pvp vs wvw, still the issue I pointed out has yet to actually be adressed or refuted by you. All you have done now is quote two well known players making general comments that dont address the specifics that I am talking about that you seem to want to claim are wrong without actually bringing any relevent counter argument. You simply claim its never been an issue for you so it must not be a real thing. Which is a very poor argument especially considering how common it is for mesmers to point to the lack of mobility from MC and how it creates an obvious and unescapable downside when caught in AoE and cleave. The generalized and very old quotes are pretty pointless to me as a counter argument since it is a broad generalization that neither supports or refutes your argument or mine. > > So we are talking about WvW and not PvP? That is fine. Like I said I have been playing Chronomancer and Mirage almost exclusively. That includes in both a WvW and PvP environment. You dismiss utilities to escape AOEs as being valid. I can prove that wrong very easily. Play Chronomancer in WvW. Find out how much more punishing it is to play as Chronomancer in WvW when you don't have all those utilities that Mirage has to escape cleave and AOE. A second dodge does not come close to removing you from the situations nearly as well as what you have with Mirage. As Chronomancer if you are stuck in cleave and AOE you have one single option and that is to teleport out, if that is on CD you have 0 options. As a Mirage you have many actual options. You can jaunt, you can MC, you can axe 2 for mobility, you can port with axe 3 to avoid it, you can sword ambush, you can distort. You have soooooooo much more leeway as Mirage to find yourself in those kind of situations and survive because of it's kit. Play Chronomancer and see just how wrong you are in assuming that having 2 regular dodges makes up for all of those things. No thats just it, you are going in circles and and ignoreing that the actual argument I and others made. Which is simply that since EVERY class has mobility utilities those not a "Mesmer thing". However, Mirage cloak is. Additionally, the point is that **Mirage cloak DOESNT give the STANDARD MOBILITY that NORMAL DODGE HAS MIRAGE CLOAK HAS NO MOBILITY PROVIDED. MEANING, YOU STAY IN PLACE.** WHICH IS WHY, I SAID, MC COMES WITH LESS MOBILITY, WHICH MAKES MIRAGE MORE VULNERABLE TO AoE AND CLEAVE. **ITS NOT OPINION OR VIEW ITS FACT.** YOU ARE TRYING TO GO AROUND IT AND CLAIM ITS PLAY STYLE. **YOU ARE WRONG FACTUALLY**. YOUR OPINION DOESNT COME INTO IT. **YOUR PLAY STYLE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.** Rather than actually talk about the facts of the topic you keep trying to claim you are such an amazing Mesmer that you apparently dominate everyone and never die. Can we see some video? Cause I simply think your 100% full of it. You are worked hard to avoid the actual topic with generalizations, appeal to authority and a number of other fallacies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 > @"Senqu.8054" said: > Hadn’t 6 out of 8 classes more dodge then mirage before the one dodge nerf? xD EH don't all the other classes have 2 dodges minimum except mirage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradorin.6217 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > Hadn’t 6 out of 8 classes more dodge then mirage before the one dodge nerf? xD > > EH don't all the other classes have 2 dodges minimum except mirage? > He is saying 6 of 8 had 2 dodges when Mirage had 2 dodges. Some get 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senqu.8054 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > Hadn’t 6 out of 8 classes more dodge then mirage before the one dodge nerf? xD > > > > EH don't all the other classes have 2 dodges minimum except mirage? > > > > He is saying 6 of 8 had 2 dodges when Mirage had 2 dodges. Some get 3. Im saying that 6 out of 8 classes had more dodges per minute then Mirage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradorin.6217 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > Hadn’t 6 out of 8 classes more dodge then mirage before the one dodge nerf? xD > > > > > > EH don't all the other classes have 2 dodges minimum except mirage? > > > > > > > He is saying 6 of 8 had 2 dodges when Mirage had 2 dodges. Some get 3. > > Im saying that 6 out of 8 classes had more dodges per minute then Mirage > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > Hadn’t 6 out of 8 classes more dodge then mirage before the one dodge nerf? xD > > > > > > EH don't all the other classes have 2 dodges minimum except mirage? > > > > > > > He is saying 6 of 8 had 2 dodges when Mirage had 2 dodges. Some get 3. > > Im saying that 6 out of 8 classes had more dodges per minute then Mirage That makes more sense =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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