PvP Fights Now Be Like:

[Aktium.9506]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> pre megapatch pvp was a meme. post patch still a meme but different combat. who wins? you decide at ePiC mEmE bAtTlEs Of HiStOrY ~~~

The one where the only class in the game that doesn't have iframes or blocks doesn't get completely shafted ?

[Shao.7236]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> 

> pre megapatch pvp was a meme. post patch still a meme but different combat. who wins? you decide at ePiC mEmE bAtTlEs Of HiStOrY ~~~

> >! btw that meme damage could be done on any class

 

Wow, it's worst than I remember.

 

> @"Aktium.9506" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > pre megapatch pvp was a meme. post patch still a meme but different combat. who wins? you decide at ePiC mEmE bAtTlEs Of HiStOrY ~~~

> The one where the only class in the game that doesn't have iframes or blocks doesn't get completely shafted ?

 

My guy, all of it could be unblockable too, it's only a matter of iframes at this point

[Shao.7236]

Delete me.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> Wow, it's worst than I remember.

 

my first wake up moment was when i got hit for a 14k (in that ballpark) ranger axe 3. pvp was a giant meme back then and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

> @"georgessj.4198" said:

> And i have photos of a 300 damage skill hiting me for14k (perhaps even more) that takes less than a second to hit my char. Obviously i died in 2 seconds after the other hits came so......where does this lead to? Does it lead to boosting ferocity or dmg overall so it can hit my 25khp char for 26k?

 

I'm very sorry to hear that and I hope you find peace in the future.

Was that before or after patch? What build/stats were you running?

 

I play a Bunker build post patch and the only thing that can come remotely close to that kind of damage now is a Soulbeast that invests everything into maximum damage. Even then it doesn't come from 1 skill. It comes from multiple skills and it still only manages about half of 22k hp.(Albeit with 3,067 armor).

 

Then I pop my healing skill and go from ~11k back to ~18k hp, and proceed to stunlock the Soulbeast for a solid 20 seconds(Give or take a few stunbreaks, but that doesn't really matter because they all take a good 5% of a match for the CD to reset now, longer in some cases) and if they even manage to escape the CC/Block spam by the time their burst is ready again, i've already completely reset back to full hp, and seen every mean word in the English language tossed my way in /say chat.

 

If you're also investing everything into damage(like Zerks) then obviously you're going to die a lot quicker. It's probably not going to feel all too different to pre-patch.... Until you fight a bunker like me.

 

Before, damage was there to stop people like me and provide some sort of consistent threat to people running similar builds.

After, damage is only a threat to other people trying to do damage.

 

I don't like it very much personally, but if people like it, I don't judge. But yes, I think the majority of the nerfs from 2/25/2020 onward have been pretty pointless. I don't think damage needs to be buffed, I think all the nerfs and removals since then need to be undone.

I'm also a huge hypocrite because I will exploit it to no end so long as its there, and ruin many days and attention spans in the process. Don't hate the player though.

 

Namaste ?

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > Wow, it's worst than I remember.

>

> my first wake up moment was when i got hit for a 14k (in that ballpark) ranger axe 3. pvp was a giant meme back then and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

 

And people still think that this kind of damage was good for healthy pvp...

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > Wow, it's worst than I remember.

>

> my first wake up moment was when i got hit for a 14k (in that ballpark) ranger axe 3. pvp was a giant meme back then and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

 

Back in that old meta before patching, I once landed a 32k rapid fire on a Scourge. This was a rapid fire only using sic em, it had no one wolf pack attached.

 

That is also the same meta where Ovark was caught in a screen shot landing a 63k worldly impact lololololol

[Shao.7236]

> @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > > Wow, it's worst than I remember.

> >

> > my first wake up moment was when i got hit for a 14k (in that ballpark) ranger axe 3. pvp was a giant meme back then and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

>

> And people still think that this kind of damage was good for healthy pvp...

 

You can't make this up, but it's w/e. Games more fun if everything dies randomly left and right for everyone or nobody ever dies because they can evade a thousand time with single digit options available. That's build diversity in a nutshell.

 

Be gone if we adjust stats to make decisions matter more or or even teamwork, what could we ever do? Yeah surely, surely it would be better to go back.

 

Finding a good middle ground isn't balance, that's just horrible decision making that creates the worst state the game has ever been in.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Building off of what @"Arheundel.6451" said, Constant nerfs are just as bad as buffs. There is a video on Youtube that says Buffs are better then nerfs...but this is simply not true...However there is a rationale for their reasoning.

 

It has to deal with essentially, the barrier for entry on how useful something is to accomplish a goal. You can think of this type of thing as a catalyst...in order for a chemical reaction to happen it has to hit a certain temperature first... Without hitting that temperature (Melting Point...Boiling Point Etc...) Chemical reactions just don't happen. It's the same thing with the usefulness of choices.

 

Now if in theory everything in the game was nerfed, an i literally mean every single thing, you can lower the barrier for entry. Want to nerf something to do 1 damage? Then reduce the HP, Armor, Amulets Sigils, Abilities, Traits to be in the 10's. The key is that EVERYTHING has to be nerfed....And at this point what have you really changed? The barrier for entry isn't a rational number on a number line...it's a ratio. Something that does 1000 damage against an opponent that has 10000 health, is the same barrier for entry for something that does 1 damage against an opponent with 10 health. , and if one were to lower one thing without nerfing everything else, the barrier for entry is unfairly distributed, so what did we accomplish exactly? Number tweaking in the above manner is pointless because it doesn't change anything about the system in any meaningful sense.

 

This is why the current balance philosophy of "nerf everything" was always flawed to begin with, as well as the "Buff this" mentality that is often posed as the counter argument to the nerf everything stance. Neither actions lead to anything that is balanced in any sensical form, and an approach that @"Arheundel.6451" alludes to is what is really the critical factor in deciding how a system is able to change. Functionality changes, and build diversity.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> 63k worldly impact lololololol

 

thats just mean lol. i got hit by that in game a couple times too.

 

[Ragnar.4257]

Except, that isn't what happened is it? @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684"

 

HP and Damage didn't get reduced by equal proportion, HP has stayed in exactly the same place.

 

We aren't in a bunker meta. People will still get deleted in the blink of an eye if they're not paying attention. This whole thing you're arguing about is entirely in your imagination. Incase you didn't notice, it wasn't just damage which got nerfed, sustain did too in the form of healing-values, stunbreak CDs, block/evade CDs, boon durations, cleanses etc.

 

The concept of the Feb 2020 patch was a good one. The only problem was a failure to quickly follow up on some of the outliers which got missed. And honestly, they're slowly getting there. The state of the game right now is the most diverse it's been for years.

[Firebeard.1746]

> @"wilykcat.5864" said:

> The only nerf I approve is mesmer.

 

I"m still salty both core burn guard and dh haven't been revisited. I feel like almost everyone is getting nerfs except them. And Berserker. Not sure if it's downed state is fixed, but it's kinda op they can just stand right up and keep going after being downed. Honestly, they should remove downstate entirely from sPVP imo.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> Except, that isn't what happened is it? @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684"

 

I think you misunderstand. No matter what one could do to change the system with number changes, the system doesn't change in any meaningful sense. Creating a new power-level does nothing because it's all relative. In the same token, changing some but not all things, means you aren't actually balancing anything, just moving numbers in the system around.

 

[Ragnar.4257]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> Something that does 1000 damage against an opponent that has 10000 health, is the same barrier for entry for something that does 1 damage against an opponent with 10 health.

 

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > Except, that isn't what happened is it? @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684"

>

> I think you misunderstand. No matter what one could do to change the system with number changes, the system doesn't change in any meaningful sense. Creating a new power-level does nothing because it's all relative. In the same token, changing some but not all things, means you aren't actually balancing anything, just moving numbers in the system around.

 

 

I think its you who don't understand what it is you actually wrote.

 

Your suggestion was that all numbers had had the same co-efficient applied. This is demonstrably not true.

 

Reducing damage while keeping HP the same is not just "all relative". It completely changes the flow and pace of the game.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> I think its you who don't understand what it is you actually wrote.

 

Please explain how i don't understand what i wrote, it's quiet clear. lowering all numbers in a system that was previously 1000 damage for every 10,000 health, is the same as a system with 1 damage for every 10 health. In this scenario, the barrier for entry doesn't change.

 

Changing only SOME of the things in the system, leads to what we have now, which doesn't accomplish actual balance because you are only changing some of the things in that system, and this is what we see in gw2 currently.

[Ragnar.4257]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > I think its you who don't understand what it is you actually wrote.

>

> Please explain how i don't understand what i wrote, it's quiet clear. lowering all numbers in a system that was previously 1000 damage for every 10,000 health, is the same as a system with 1 damage for every 10 health. In this scenario, the barrier for entry doesn't change.

 

But that isn't what happened!

 

The Feb 2020 patch didn't reduce damage and health by the same proportion. Why do you keep making this point?

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> The Feb 2020 patch didn't reduce damage and health by the same proportion. Why do you keep making this point?

 

uhh...exactly. Only some of the things changed, it's all pointless number pushing. Nothing is actually accomplished. What goal is there if the entire meaning of balance is to make things equal (Is that not what "balance" means), when you are purposefully making some things stronger or weaker then other things. In either case, nothing is actually accomplishing the goal of "balance."

[Ragnar.4257]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > The Feb 2020 patch didn't reduce damage and health by the same proportion. Why do you keep making this point?

>

> uhh...exactly. Only some of the things changed, it's all pointless number pushing. Nothing is actually accomplished. What goal is there if the entire meaning of balance is to make things equal (Is that not what "balance" means), when you are purposefully making some things stronger or weaker then other things. In either case, nothing is actually accomplishing the goal of "balance."

 

This argument is just incoherent.

 

First you say that changing all numbers by the same co-efficient results in everything staying the same, relatively. Which is correct.

 

And now you're saying that balance can only be achieved by keeping all numbers the same relatively, and that doing otherwise results in imbalance.

 

Your second point there is just flat out wrong. If it was changed that baseline HP was 1,000,000, suddenly the way everyone would play the game would be different, because there'd be no danger of getting 1-shot, and you could maybe accept face-tanking a big burst to achieve some wider strategic goal. People would change their playstyle to min-maxing damage/healing efficiency, because the game would change from being based on twitch reactions, to being about strategically managing resources and maximising efficiency. Your contention that tweaking numbers changes nothing is untrue.

 

Likewise, if we consider the inverse, where all damage numbers are multiplied by 1000, and HP remains the same, again people would have to change how they play, because taking even 1 hit would be death.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

 

Think of it like this then...

 

You have Player A, That does 1000 damage, and has 10 HP. You have another player that does 10 damage, and 1000 HP. How would you go about balancing this system?

 

There is essentially no operation you can do to balance the system above. In fact, the above is as equivalent to both players having 505 damage, and 505 HP. In all sense of the word, no matter what you do in this system, the above can not be changed to anything that is meaningfully balanced then what it already is. making either of them less or more then the other makes the system by definition IMBALANCED.

[Ragnar.4257]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

>

> Think of it like this then...

>

> You have Player A, That does 1000 damage, and has 10 HP. You have another player that does 10 damage, and 1000 HP. How would you go about balancing this system?

>

> There is essentially no operation you can do to balance the system above. In fact, the above is as equivalent to both players having 505 damage, and 505 HP. In all sense of the word, no matter what you do in this system, the above can not be changed to anything that is meaningfully balanced then what it already is. making either of them less or more makes the system by definition IMBALANCED.

 

What relevance does this have to anything that is being discussed?

 

That in no way describes the situation gw2 was/is in pre/post patch, or any of the balance changes being faced.

 

This scenario of 1000/10 vs 10/1000 is, technically, balanced. Why would I need to go about balancing it? Or are you suggesting that GW2 pre-patch was perfectly balanced?

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> What relevance does this have to anything that is being discussed?

 

Like i said, any change that doesn't universally effect the entire system in an attempt to make it equal, imbalances the system. what the hell do you think happened February Patch? and what do you think happened as a consequence of the patch?

 

[Ragnar.4257]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > What relevance does this have to anything that is being discussed?

>

> Like i said, any change that doesn't universally effect the entire system in an attempt to make it equal, imbalances the system. what the hell do you think happened February Patch? and what do you think happened as a consequence of the patch?

>

 

Are you suggesting that gw2 pre-patch was perfectly balanced? (Or, at least, better balanced than it is currently?)

 

Because that is the only scenario in what you're saying makes any sense. If it was perfectly balanced beforehand, then you're right. But, it wasn't, so what are you talking about?

 

The Feb 2020 patch was not really anything to do with "balance" as such. It was about re-shaping the pace and flow of the game. Balance is not even a relevant topic here.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> Because that is the only scenario in what you're saying makes any sense. If it was perfectly balanced beforehand, then you're right. But, it wasn't, so what are you talking about?

 

The entire point is to illustrate how in it's fundamentality, changes to a system, whether it's already balanced or not, does not lead to any meaningful changes. I could have given you an unbalanced system (Feel free to go and do that yourself)... there is no operation that makes that system balanced without universally effecting all things in that system. This is a consequence of trying to make things equal.

[Ragnar.4257]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > Because that is the only scenario in what you're saying makes any sense. If it was perfectly balanced beforehand, then you're right. But, it wasn't, so what are you talking about?

>

> The entire point is to illustrate how in it's fundamentality, changes to a system, whether it's already balanced or not, does not lead to any meaningful changes. I could have given you an unbalanced system (Feel free to go and do that yourself)... there is no operation that makes that system balanced without universally effecting all things in that system. This is a consequence of trying to make things equal.

 

And I've already demonstrated multiple times in this thread how changing the numbers DOES lead to meaningful changes. So, you're wrong.

 

And I'll say again: The Feb 2020 patch was not really anything to do with "balance" as such. It was about re-shaping the pace and flow of the game. Balance is not even a relevant topic here.

 

> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> Your second point there is just flat out wrong. If it was changed that baseline HP was 1,000,000, suddenly the way everyone would play the game would be different, because there'd be no danger of getting 1-shot, and you could maybe accept face-tanking a big burst to achieve some wider strategic goal. People would change their playstyle to min-maxing damage/healing efficiency, because the game would change from being based on twitch reactions, to being about strategically managing resources and maximising efficiency. Your contention that tweaking numbers changes nothing is untrue.

>

> Likewise, if we consider the inverse, where all damage numbers are multiplied by 1000, and HP remains the same, again people would have to change how they play, because taking even 1 hit would be death.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> And I've already demonstrated multiple times in this thread how changing the numbers DOES lead to meaningful changes.

>So, you're wrong.

 

Demonstration? Where?

 

> And I'll say again: The Feb 2020 patch was not really anything to do with "balance" as such. It was about re-shaping the pace and flow of the game.

 

That's literally all it did, was reshape. It literally did not accomplish anything remotely close to balance and for good reason...but is this not why people wanted Anet to do? Balance the game?

 

I'm proving @"Arheundel.6451" point about how number changes for the system as a whole is meaningless and doesn't accomplish anything. You are in fact supporting this by saying what you just said above. What really matters about balance in the game, is mechanics, and build diversity, and there are very good reasons why. Buffs and nerfs lead you to power-creep and power-dip and we've now experienced both sides. There's no mistake why that is the case, and my comment illustrates why.