Chrono Tank vs Druid Tank

[Mega Skeleton.8259]

It seems most raids tend to run Chrono tanks, and that often times the idea of Druid tanks gets laughed at or diminished in my experience, and I've had a hard time figuring out why, aside from just established meta making it easier to gear for and build group comps around. In summary, the two main differences are:

 

Chrono - DEEPS - allows for optimized DPS, primarily by bringing condi druids, and ensuring maximal GOTL uptime vs larger targets.

Druid - EZ MODE - self reliance, and ensures maximum quickness/alacrity uptime for the group vs larger targets. Reactive tanking vs proactive is more forgiving.

 

To me, the tradeoffs are rather small, since I think condi druid is slightly overrated, and many groups still run magi's druids anyway, so the potential DPS gains may be entirely offset or even worsened with average groups. Additionally, a minstrel's chrono can potentially eat into druid regen ticks, for those who use a regen build (which I think is optimal for healing druids, due to easily filled CA). Also, if your druid is tanking, Minstrel's Chrono becomes wasted gear, and maxed out zerker/commanders can reach ~10k dps pretty comfortably on many fights. I think it's a clear cut easier to carry with stronger heals, at a minimum loss to DPS in all but the best groups. I think it's easier to carry, and in my experience, I've played a lot of druid tank, chrono, and limited chrono tank, and tend to find the pile of responsibilities a Chrono has on many fights already to be eaten into by the additional responsibility of tanking. I'm likely just underexperienced as a chrono tank, but druid tanking is rather simple by comparison, and eases strain on healers as well.

 

In short, I think it's much easier to carry as a druid tank and allows your chronos to focus on their often myriad tasks of pulls, invulns, continuum split, and focusing much more on keeping boons on friends, while benefitting from them yourself to keep your uptime even higher. Yeah chrono has a simple rotation generally speaking, but I think their utility in every fight, even aside from alacrity/quickness is tremendous, and all but the best chronos will have troubles excelling at.

 

I think both are perfectly valid, and the DPS gains in all but the most optimized groups are small, but feel free to prove me wrong. Is the EU meta any different?

[Kal Bhairav.6589]

U r forgetting block.

[Cyninja.2954]

Druid tanks work fine and some groups run them.

 

You did leave out quite a few things which push chrono beyond druid though:

 

- massive amount of blocks and invuls (Sword 2, Sword 4, Shield 4, distortion from signets (and phantasms) even if only used as damage reduction, F4, Well of Precognition). That's a ton of "I can stand in the face of the boss and trade blows" skills. Don't think the druid has the same amount of damage avoidance

- alacrity (quickness could be provided by another class if need be) means in an ideal setup you want 2 chronos. Not sure how well you can run tank druid with only 1 support druid. You are potentially looking at now having to bring 3 druids and 2 chronos effectively losing 1 dps spot

- mesmer gives up no skills for playing tank. He can run his complete support setup of utility skills without having to bring specialised traits or skills for tanking just by working their class design (lots of invuls and blocks)

- a minstrel mesmer is absolutely selfreliant as well meaning the raid can split off and not lose healing from 1 druid (in case the druid is tank). this also means the tank can position themself away from the raid if need be (doesn't work as well if you are druid tank and healer)

 

I'd agree that running a druid tank, 2 druids AND 2 chronos would make life easier for some bosses and groups by simply optimising the chronos and the amount of support in the raid. My question though: if your chronos are adept enough to distort mechanics, why use a crutch and not go all out? I feel that if you are at that skill level you don't need training run practices.

 

I'd probably go druid tank, druid support, heal tempest and 2 chrono though. Heal tempests are beasts and outperform druids in basic healing throughput (once the druid unique buffs are not required any longer a tempest should be prefered for healing).

 

[DutchRiders.2871]

Because if ya group aint eating damage you can run Condi druids. If they are eating damage you want healers and heals on the stack (not on the tank). Secondly the range your buffs reach is larger on chrono.

 

Also a chrono has to run a base amount of toughness to maximise quickness anyways. By putting toughness on your healer ya wasting stats.

 

Its definitely a viable tank but chrono is better suited for it.

[Mega Skeleton.8259]

I inferred blocks/evades with proactive tanking. Blocks are good to have, but mostly only useful for things which are usually fairly easily solved with dodge rolls, such as VG or Deimos. Useful for Xera as well. Xera is about the only time I'd say that damage is actually tough to manage, but as long as you have some condi clears or are in CA it's not much of an issue.

 

You definitely don't need 3 druids with tank druid. Minstrel's druid can pull their weight in healing. CA makes it easy to heal group even if you're off stack. Regen ticks help too if you're maxing boon duration. The only bosses that are tough to stay in range of group for is probably Gors and to a smaller extent KC, and frankly, I don't think it's much of an impact on either of those fights if you're aware of that and use CA 1 and 3s to keep GOTL up. Both those fights have a fairly low amount of time where you're on the other side of the boss

 

You can still bring in a condi druid, your chronos can pack more berserker gear and make up any DPS changes. As far as wasted stats go, I'm not sure minstrel's chrono is really using their stats too efficiently either. At least with a minstrel's druid your outgoing healing is substantial. Minstrel's chrono is more selfish in that regard, since all the stats but boon duration mostly just help himself. Stats on druid and chrono are all worth the least, as it stands, as long as you fulfill your basic roles.

 

My point is I don't really think it's a crutch. I think it's easier, and the trade offs are minimal if not an improvement. I think it eases chrono jobs substantially and doesn't really make a big difference in what druids do, but that's possibly just a lack of experience. IMO chronos already have a lot to manage, and druids substantially less so, especially if people stack well and avoid mechanics.

[savacli.8172]

In the ideal world you would be bringing two Berserker/Comm Chronos paired with Viper Druids. The damage increase between promoting a Minstel/Nomad Chrono to a Berserker/Comm Chrono is substantially less than promoting a Power/Healing Druid to a Condi variant. And regardless of how you skin the cat you're still bringing all the same buffs and boons. The one thing would want to avoid is Minstrel Chrono with a Magi/Mintrel Druid in the same sub as that would be overkill.

 

But like Dutch mentioned, Chrono's are already having to bring toughness unless they do something whacky with their builds. Now that Harrier is out, Minstrel gear is very much wasted on your Druid unless you are specifically trying to make your Druid tank. Harrier lets you have similar healing output to what a Magi would dish out (with inherit Healing Power and Outgoing Healing modifiers piled together), and you have the boon duration a Minstrel. Bonus points if you run Regen since Harrier would let you win the Regen battle against your Chrono.

 

Ultimately, it's one of those "to each his own". The one point I will make is that Chronos are naturally tanky with their built-in access to defensive measures (evades, blocks, distort, aegis) while Druids make for good makeshift tanks so long as they can outheal incoming damage.

[Mega Skeleton.8259]

Ah, I hadn't considered Harrier's gear. Good point!

 

I just think people often try to go super optimal at their own loss. I know DPS increases success by decreasing exposure to mechanics, but increasing reliability should be slightly more highly prioritized, I always think. Shaving a minute off a boss kill means nothing if you wipe even once. IDK I just feel like people over-exaggerate how set in the meta is at their own expense. Most people here admit it's fine. You can get sub 2 hour clears easily enough if you don't wipe, but go to pugs and they just want to emulate top strats even though they should be favoring reliability instead. IDK, just seems like a weird attitude to have. People fight over raid comps for a couple extra Ks in benchmarks but then waste 10 minutes over swapping chars constantly and wiping. Pretty sure 95% of raiders don't need to be at the razor's edge. Yeah, I get optimizing but I feel the gains at the top are minimal for the costs when considering averages

[savacli.8172]

> @"Mega Skeleton.8259" said:

> Ah, I hadn't considered Harrier's gear. Good point!

>

> I just think people often try to go super optimal at their own loss. I know DPS increases success by decreasing exposure to mechanics, but increasing reliability should be slightly more highly prioritized, I always think. Shaving a minute off a boss kill means nothing if you wipe even once. IDK I just feel like people over-exaggerate how set in the meta is at their own expense. Most people here admit it's fine. You can get sub 2 hour clears easily enough if you don't wipe, but go to pugs and they just want to emulate top strats even though they should be favoring reliability instead. IDK, just seems like a weird attitude to have. People fight over raid comps for a couple extra Ks in benchmarks but then waste 10 minutes over swapping chars constantly and wiping. Pretty sure 95% of raiders don't need to be at the razor's edge. Yeah, I get optimizing but I feel the gains at the top are minimal for the costs when considering averages

 

I feel like pugs are more at fault for being diehard meta-centric. I agree that consistency/reliability is more important than speed for the reason you mentioned, but you can't really organize that on the pug level. Personally, in my group, we still do silly things like bring 3 healers on Matthias. Sure, we're not gonna set any records there, but I can't think of the last time we struggled with that fight outside of stupid mistakes (someone accidentally bringing reflects, Not bringing CC, etc).

 

But, back on track, when it comes to pugs their best bet is to go with tried-and-true. As in Chrono's had been time and time again been shown off as excellent tanks while Druids has been seen as excellent healers. Can you mix the two roles? Sure!....but try convincing that to your pugmmander. IF you're running your own group? Well, the meta is just a reference at that point, and you're free to run what you find to be most fun, consistent, speedy, or whatever else you're shooting for.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Mega Skeleton.8259" said:

> You can still bring in a condi druid, your chronos can pack more berserker gear and make up any DPS changes. As far as wasted stats go, I'm not sure minstrel's chrono is really using their stats too efficiently either. At least with a minstrel's druid your outgoing healing is substantial. Minstrel's chrono is more selfish in that regard, since all the stats but boon duration mostly just help himself. Stats on druid and chrono are all worth the least, as it stands, as long as you fulfill your basic roles.

 

I'm not sure I follow?

 

Minstrel gear: Toughness, Healing, Boon duration, Vitality

 

Mesmer

- Toughness - mandatory for tanking and on just about any useful boon duration gear at the moment

- Healing Power - keeps the chrono alive, very useful on fights like Xera or offhealing for your druids easily allowing 1 druid to go condi instead of magi

- Boon duration - quickness and every boon copied with SoI (and on phantasms cast)

- vitality - beside being a hitpoint buffer, useless

 

Druid

- Toughness - mandatory for tanking.

- Healing Power - more raid healing IF the druid is in range, will have to use quite a bit of it to keep himself alive since he doesn't get to block/ignore as much damage as a mesmer

- Boon duration - useless

- vitality - beside being a hitpoint buffer, useless

 

I'm not seeing it. Please try to not be as biased.

 

Druid tank works, but chrono just fits the current limitations of gear availability as well as everything else mentioned just better.

 

 

[Mega Skeleton.8259]

Boon Duration isn't useless for regen druid, which is an excellent way to keep groups easily topped off for scholar bonus, and generate a ton of CA. I know people will say "I don't have issues generating CA" but when shit happens, it can slow down your generation a lot. Having ticks on people in hell in Deimos while you're tanking up top. Regen druid is definitely underrated.

 

IDK, it's very simple to heal groups while tanking, even in fights with large hitboxes it's easy to keep high GOTL uptime, you can often creep towards to the middle of the model. My whole argument is that the playstyle of a druid tank you make essentially no change to your playstyle and logistics become a bit easier for things like Xera teleports or deimos tanking when the damage the tank takes and moving party members can complicate things. FWIW, a single druid can fill up the entire raids GOTL very fast, if both druids are in CA it basically assures over-GOTLing. I don't think Quickness/Alacrity suffer this detriment so much, since I think they can take more stacks innately. (At least alacrity does, hard to reach cap anyway)

 

I mean, either way seems like a wash, I'm not convinced of the superiority of chrono tank except in the highest levels of play where you can pull off 2 condi druids without an issue, and basically never wipe/have deaths. That's not the vast majority of raiders. Most of the pros/cons are pretty minimal as far as I can tell. Arguments for stat inefficiencies seem kind of minor since both classes are the lowest DPS contributors by a large margin.

 

Anyway I understand that introducing more options for roles in some ways complicates gearing, comps, etc, but I think more flexibility is ultimately good. I just wish toughness wasn't the way aggro was determined. I like the fights like Mursaat Overseer where it's determined by an item. Toughness is better than old school Threat systems, but it can be frustrating when things like Warriors can't res people without pulling aggro, or Firebrands accidentally pulling Deimos when kiting hands.

[savacli.8172]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> Mesmer

> - Toughness - mandatory for tanking and on just about any useful boon duration gear at the moment

> - Healing Power - keeps the chrono alive, very useful on fights like Xera or offhealing for your druids easily allowing 1 druid to go condi instead of magi

> - Boon duration - quickness and every boon copied with SoI (and on phantasms cast)

> - vitality - beside being a hitpoint buffer, useless

>

> Druid

> - Toughness - mandatory for tanking.

> - Healing Power - more raid healing IF the druid is in range, will have to use quite a bit of it to keep himself alive since he doesn't get to block/ignore as much damage as a mesmer

> - Boon duration - useless

> - vitality - beside being a hitpoint buffer, useless

>

> I'm not seeing it. Please try to not be as biased.

>

> Druid tank works, but chrono just fits the current limitations of gear availability as well as everything else mentioned just better.

 

Optimally speaking any defensive stat is gonna be considered a waste outside of the necessary toughness needed for holding aggro. Xera and Deimos are about the only two bosses I can think of where Chrono is just a hands down better tank due to high accessibility to blocks, evades, and all that good stuff. Every other boss either does not use a tank/toughness mechanic or whose damage output is easily outhealed.

 

Boon duration is also very very tasty for a Druid. They also have easier access to some boons that would be more inconvenient for other classes to produce. Harrier would get you the following numbers:

 

Spirits (rounding up since it's almost +100%):

 

* 6 seconds of Regen (Water) every 3 seconds

* 2 seconds of Vigor (Sun) every 3 seconds

* 6 seconds of Swiftness (Storm) every 3 seconds

* 6 seconds of Might x3 (Frost) every 3 seconds

* 2 seconds of Protection (Stone) every 3 seconds

* 6 seconds when the spirit buff procs every 10 seconds (Stone)

* 2 seconds of Stab (Nature) every 3 seconds

 

Triated Warhorn would give on an 24 second cooldown (again, rounding up here):

 

* 20 second of regen

* 30 seconds of Swiftness

* 30 seconds of Might x3

* 40 seconds of Might x3 if you happen to combo with a Fire Field (unlikely but nice when that happens)

* 30 seconds of Fury

 

On op of that, Fury uptime with Warhorn would let you swap out tiger for a more utility/offensive pet.

 

Regen from a Harrier Druid would give ~516 HP/s to allies. The Druid herself would receive 305 HP/s from Regen + an additional 319 HP/s through "Live Vicariously". Regen Druids are definitely a great foundation to a team, but the awkward situation was that you would be competing for toughness since Minstrel was the best option at the time to get both Healing Power and Concentration. Now that Harrier is out the choice is easy to make as you can get both stats unless you're shooting for Condi. Granted, if your squad still likes Druid tanks you would still need Minstrel.

 

Minstrel Chrono is effectively a tank with legs. The build sacrifices any hope of being able to contribute damage, but you're about as indestructible as it gets with a class (over 20k health with 2,000+ toughness). On top of that the Healing Power works out to about 350 HP/s on the Regen applied from phantasms. It's not enough to keep your team topped off by yourself but definitely adds a cushion to your sub.

 

Like I said before, there is more than one way to skin the Charr here, and it really goes down to the preference of your squad as to how they want to run things. And of course the only wrong answer would be if you're trying to set a record/speed clear of sort. In which case, that's when optimal vs viable is mandatory.

[npmis.7860]

> @"Mega Skeleton.8259" said:

> In short, I think it's much easier to carry as a druid tank and allows your chronos to focus on their often myriad tasks of pulls, invulns, continuum split, and focusing much more on keeping boons on friends, while benefitting from them yourself to keep your uptime even higher. Yeah chrono has a simple rotation generally speaking, but I think their utility in every fight, even aside from alacrity/quickness is tremendous, and all but the best chronos will have troubles excelling at.

 

When getting used to Chrono only the distortion at VG (and maybe Deimos) is really a difficult task apart from the trivial tasks of a Chrono. But even at VG it is a good decision to let a Chrono tank.

 

* VG: A high amount of stationary blocks, evades and invulnerability make tanking with minimal movement possible. This is a large dps increase for most classes.

* Gorse: Easy to tank, so the Chrono-tank can play quite offensive. A Druid-Tank would have trouble to keep up the heals and more importantly the GotL in between the CC.

* KC: A zerk Ele could tank KC.

* Xera: Druid-Tank is a good option. But I would prefer the chrono-tank, mainly to let the druids focus more on healing.

* Deimos: Druid is a good option. Though both Chronos would lose their phantasms when going ~down~ up. (But since everyone in PuGs is staying in the middle of the arena as lazy ass anyway..._ranting about PuGs at Deimos_ )

 

There are a few options where a Druid-tank is a good choice, but I prefer having them concentrated on heals and buffs.

But maybe I just imagine playing Druid much more complicated than it is, because I suck on it.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Mega Skeleton.8259" said:

> Boon Duration isn't useless for regen druid

 

No one was saying it was. They were saying that your regen when compared to minstrels chrono is useless because chrono has the higher duration regen which takes priority thus meaning your regen is doing diddly for CA.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

> > @"Mega Skeleton.8259" said:

> > Boon Duration isn't useless for regen druid

>

> No one was saying it was. They were saying that your regen when compared to minstrels chrono is useless because chrono has the higher duration regen which takes priority thus meaning your regen is doing diddly for CA.

 

That is actually a valid complaint. The regen system needs an overhaul entirely in my opinion. but that's beside the point.

 

This problem does not go away without minstrel chronos, since every chrono will be at a duration cap. It actually just gets worse without minstrel chronos.

[savacli.8172]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > @"Mega Skeleton.8259" said:

> > > Boon Duration isn't useless for regen druid

> >

> > No one was saying it was. They were saying that your regen when compared to minstrels chrono is useless because chrono has the higher duration regen which takes priority thus meaning your regen is doing diddly for CA.

>

> That is actually a valid complaint. The regen system needs an overhaul entirely in my opinion. but that's beside the point.

>

> This problem does not go away without minstrel chronos, since every chrono will be at a duration cap. It actually just gets worse without minstrel chronos.

 

Every boon that works off of duration instead of intensity runs into the same issue. Ofc the extra problem with Regen is that it has a quasi-intensity effect to it. As Quickness is still Quickness regardless of the source, but Regen can differ in potency given the caster of the boon. But yeah, unless you're running a Minstrel Chrono, Regen from Chronos is doing about 140-ish HP/s (130 base + up to 300 Healing Power from trait) and beats out Regen from Druids unless they run boon duration or use Fern Hound/Warhorn. What's doubly bad is if you have a Minstrel Chrono paired with a Minstrel/Harrier Druid, in which case Druid is overwriting the Chrono's Regen and causing the Chrono to get less mileage on their gear's Healing Power.

[Talindra.4958]

Imo as a druid it's better off chrono doing the tank I guess it's ok for some bosses but druid better to be free to move around to heal and do stuff.