Ele consistently out-DPSed by DH and warriors. ANET fix it

[Yreal.6937]

I do feel a lot better now, thank you for all the advice. Sometimes this really gets into me! I will ignore the warriors for now, time to make a MANTRA to keep me Zen during runs. Indeed I love the challenge and I hope to improve more, this require a lot more practise on the encounters.

[Weo weo.6378]

Old dragonhunter main here.

 

Find some time to practice your rotations on the training golem in special forces area.

 

Even though it's easier for a warrior or dH to hit a favorable number in dps, you'll find out that your potential is way higher with a bit of practice.

 

Watch Weaver rotation videos from quantify or other raiders. Even if you aren't with a team that offers every known bit of boon and alacrity, it'll give you an idea on how to achieve those huge numbers. It will seem daunting at first but it'll be worth it at the end :D

[Legendofzelda.1278]

I support what feanor said I raid weekly and am one of the top dps or the top dps. Some being bosses I pass others dps by thousands and some bosses being similarly below other dps depending how well I perform that week. I really like ele its the class I have the most fun with and it should be complex and fun/rewarding for getting good at it.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Weo weo.6378" said:

> Old dragonhunter main here.

>

> Find some time to practice your rotations on the training golem in special forces area.

>

> Even though it's easier for a warrior or dH to hit a favorable number in dps, you'll find out that your potential is way higher with a bit of practice.

>

> Watch Weaver rotation videos from quantify or other raiders. Even if you aren't with a team that offers every known bit of boon and alacrity, it'll give you an idea on how to achieve those huge numbers. It will seem daunting at first but it'll be worth it at the end :D

 

This here. Without the boons you'll be less efficient, but still doing better than you would with a sub-optimal rotation.

[Swimsasa Stoon.8936]

Well... in pvp, mind that I've played elementalist for a couple thousand hours and only played guardian for 300+ hours I on my guardian notice that when their is an elementalist in the team my 'teams dps' goes down and I tend to get 40% of the teams damage rather than 30ish.

 

This is probably because in pvp you only have 5 targets to damage while in pve you got a boss with a lot of hp so I'm guessing the sustained damage of the elementalist is better due to its plethora of skills?

 

Or is this theory a no-no?

I just got frustrated with elementalist though. When a guardian can kill a heavy golem for example with the press of two buttons... Elementalist just can't seem to do it.

[tekfan.3179]

I support the l2p-aspect of the ele, but I can't argue with the perception of OP.

I used to run T4 fractals with the Tempest and I am currently training with the weaver. I've tried some of the other builds from [qT] on other professions and my experiences have been aligning with the "Difficulty" to "Personal damage" ratio of besaid guides.

I think this is more than dumb, to say it in a profanity-filter-friendly way. As far as I remember, the Ele was supposed to be a class that's hard to master but very rewarding once you do. Now I get the impression Anet just balances the damage in regard to the "Personal damage" in the [qT]-guides, totally ignoring the mechanics behind the classes.

I've experienced the time when you couldn't get a place in a dungeon run with an ele and I'm not very keen for Anet to return to that point with raids and T4 fractals in the future, because every other class does the same damage while being simpler to play.

[Fengzhou.9853]

> @tekfan.3179 said:

> I support the l2p-aspect of the ele, but I can't argue with the perception of OP.

> I used to run T4 fractals with the Tempest and I am currently training with the weaver. I've tried some of the other builds from [qT] on other professions and my experiences have been aligning with the "Difficulty" to "Personal damage" ratio of besaid guides.

> I think this is more than kitten, to say it in a profanity-filter-friendly way. As far as I remember, the Ele was supposed to be a class that's hard to master but very rewarding once you do. Now I get the impression Anet just balances the damage in regard to the "Personal damage" in the [qT]-guides, totally ignoring the mechanics behind the classes.

> I've experienced the time when you couldn't get a place in a dungeon run with an ele and I'm not very keen for Anet to return to that point with raids and T4 fractals in the future, because every other class does the same damage while being simpler to play.

 

I feel similar with my ele as well. I basically benched mine for something that does close enough for far less effort, but my excuse is at least valid. I suffer from pretty crappy carpal tunnel and the whole constant piano fingers requirement for this class was just too much. I wish it wasn't so complicated because thematically? I love it. :<

[Raguel.9402]

> @"Swimsasa Stoon.8936" said:

> When a guardian can kill a heavy golem for example with the press of two buttons... Elementalist just can't seem to do it.

 

Ele can kill a golem with downstate lavafont, hell some ele players use it in their rotation as a dps increase... (sarcasm mode off)

 

Ele does the same amount of dps on small hitboxes as most other classes. However they pull ahead by a huge margin on large hitboxes. Diffence being ele rotation is harder and requires more practice.

 

Before PoF condi engie used to be higher dps than power but had a much harder rotation, meaning only good engie players were able to pull top notch dps.

[narcx.3570]

Aside from practicing the rotation as a lot of people already said, you really need to know the fights inside and out to make the most of weaver... I suspect you're losing a lot of dps on Deimos by doing things like:

- Summoning your conjured weapons when you're fighting Saul above, and thus unable to pick them up for a second use.

- Casting Meteor Shower/Icestorm/Rain of Fire on Saul's or his clones when they'd die b4 it's full duration.

- Using FGS right before the Bubble/Blast phase after 66%, forcing you out of range until after the blast (if doing the lazy pug range dps at center strat)

- Casting lava font right on deimos when your about to move him after a black.

- etc.

 

Aside from all that, you're right about DPS coming down to the fight's mechanics and how each class delivers its dps... There's certainly a "best" class for each encounter... But, like, with a few exceptions (DH on Sloth, Mirage on Matt) the difference isn't so big that it breaks the game or really matters. And besides, with how easy they make it to level alts to 80 and get ascended gear (or even share gear across all your toons, which is like, unheard of in these types of games) GW2 has never been the type of game that builds itself around "Having a Main." They can get away with loose and wild balance patches because anyone that's hardcore into the game enough to notice a difference/care about most of the changes is also likely to have every class fully geared anyways due to how much ascended drops the game pukes out at you.

 

[Lilyanna.9361]

> @Yreal.6937 said:

> So I am there in T4 fractals or raid praying that the boss will not break my long casting meteor spell that has a useless massive hitbox and dealing with the complexities of my class, so that I can hopefully pull some damage, while the rest are just slamming their fingers on their keyboards playing their simplistic classes pulling in many cases SEVERAL THOUSANDs more DPS than our Eles! This is far too unbalanced, Ele as a DPS class is already not viable in PvP and now is becoming rather useless in PvE too. Then have warriors go "AHAHAHA I do more damage than Ele!!!" Thank you ANET for messing this so badly, it has sucked the fun out of playing Ele and if this is not fixed I am personally out.

>

> All I can say these days is that unfortunately our DPS has become massively based on the game mechanics or if there are adds or what the hitbox size is. We play a rather squishy and complex class while others just slam the keys on their keyboard and rub their DPS in our faces as if it is a JOKE. What else do I bring to the group? Well nothing.

 

The hell are you worrying about top DPS for. All you need to worry about is getting the damn boss done and not have people on the same boss for 2+hours.

 

That's the problem, people worried about DPD numbers when they need to play the damn game. A stick-measuring contest is what I see here.

 

"Wah, warrior does more than mee?"

 

Okay, but as long as you get the boss done at a reasonable time, who really cares at the end of the day.

[Feanor.2358]

> @Lilyanna.9361 said:

> > @Yreal.6937 said:

> > So I am there in T4 fractals or raid praying that the boss will not break my long casting meteor spell that has a useless massive hitbox and dealing with the complexities of my class, so that I can hopefully pull some damage, while the rest are just slamming their fingers on their keyboards playing their simplistic classes pulling in many cases SEVERAL THOUSANDs more DPS than our Eles! This is far too unbalanced, Ele as a DPS class is already not viable in PvP and now is becoming rather useless in PvE too. Then have warriors go "AHAHAHA I do more damage than Ele!!!" Thank you ANET for messing this so badly, it has sucked the fun out of playing Ele and if this is not fixed I am personally out.

> >

> > All I can say these days is that unfortunately our DPS has become massively based on the game mechanics or if there are adds or what the hitbox size is. We play a rather squishy and complex class while others just slam the keys on their keyboard and rub their DPS in our faces as if it is a JOKE. What else do I bring to the group? Well nothing.

>

> The hell are you worrying about top DPS for. All you need to worry about is getting the kitten boss done and not have people on the same boss for 2+hours.

>

> That's the problem, people worried about DPD numbers when they need to play the kitten game. A stick-measuring contest is what I see here.

>

> "Wah, warrior does more than mee?"

>

> Okay, but as long as you get the boss done at a reasonable time, who really cares at the end of the day.

 

Well, you can't rely on getting carried all the time, can you? Any dps spec should consistently outdps a support one, even a hybrid support/dps one like the warrior. But like many people pointed out, ele is fully capable of doing so.

[Lilyanna.9361]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> > @Lilyanna.9361 said:

> > > @Yreal.6937 said:

> > > So I am there in T4 fractals or raid praying that the boss will not break my long casting meteor spell that has a useless massive hitbox and dealing with the complexities of my class, so that I can hopefully pull some damage, while the rest are just slamming their fingers on their keyboards playing their simplistic classes pulling in many cases SEVERAL THOUSANDs more DPS than our Eles! This is far too unbalanced, Ele as a DPS class is already not viable in PvP and now is becoming rather useless in PvE too. Then have warriors go "AHAHAHA I do more damage than Ele!!!" Thank you ANET for messing this so badly, it has sucked the fun out of playing Ele and if this is not fixed I am personally out.

> > >

> > > All I can say these days is that unfortunately our DPS has become massively based on the game mechanics or if there are adds or what the hitbox size is. We play a rather squishy and complex class while others just slam the keys on their keyboard and rub their DPS in our faces as if it is a JOKE. What else do I bring to the group? Well nothing.

> >

> > The hell are you worrying about top DPS for. All you need to worry about is getting the kitten boss done and not have people on the same boss for 2+hours.

> >

> > That's the problem, people worried about DPD numbers when they need to play the kitten game. A stick-measuring contest is what I see here.

> >

> > "Wah, warrior does more than mee?"

> >

> > Okay, but as long as you get the boss done at a reasonable time, who really cares at the end of the day.

>

> Well, you can't rely on getting carried all the time, can you? Any dps spec should consistently outdps a support one, even a hybrid support/dps one like the warrior. But like many people pointed out, ele is fully capable of doing so.

 

How is that being carried?

 

If an ele does solid damage already, WHY are you competing in the first place?

 

We are not talking about a low-power dps spec like mesmer, we are talking about fairly high dps power specs.

 

If you can crit often and critically high, who cares if the warrior does an extra 3-5k damage than you. By boss standards, you are still dpsing quickly and getting it done.

 

This is a personal problem, not a legitimate problem. This is a problem that people with an -opinion- have because it doesn't make /them/ personally feel good. This game doesn't need to go off of what makes someone shiver in their seat, this is based off of getting content done in a reasonable time.

 

This DPS counter crap was garbage in WoW and it's garbage here as well. And yes, before the much-anticipated 'well you obviously don't do high-end PVE', yes I do. On the most meta dps builds you can think of to gimmick builds that can laughable enough carry the T4 PUGs.

 

As said before, stop trying to number crunch a game and play the game.

[Feanor.2358]

It's a simple evaluation of your contribution to the party. In general, if your contribution is significantly less valuable than everyone else's, you're being carried. And when all you bring to the party is damage, then dps becomes a fairly accurate measure of your contribution. Now, the support classes are taken for their support, not their deeps, hence we can safely conclude the value of their support contribution is greater. Therefore, if you're getting out-dpsed by one, his contribution to the party is at least twice as valuable as yours. That's a huge difference which in my eyes warrants the term "carrying". Obviously, this is all very rough estimates and generalizations, but it's a good rule of thumb. If you can't beat the dps of a support with a dps class, you're badly messing up something.

[Vrita.7846]

I think the issue is how Weaver was designed. It's too heavily reliant on having good supports to be effective. Sure, you can manage with a garbage chrono and druid, but it's incredibly difficult to do your rotation when your chrono isn't giving you perma quickness or distorting lethal attacks. I pretty much refuse to run with a bad chrono, because a bad chrono makes your job a living hell.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

So your ONLY reason to play ele was to top damage meters? Thats kinda sad. What do you think gives you the right to have Ele forced to be top in damage? Shouldn't the focus be on killing the boss rather than the seeing or focusing on who is top DPS or damage :/

[Feanor.2358]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> So your ONLY reason to play ele was to top damage meters? Thats kinda sad. What do you think gives you the right to have Ele forced to be top in damage? Shouldn't the focus be on killing the boss rather than the seeing or focusing on who is top DPS or damage :/

 

My reason to play ele is its archetype. Since the early 90s I've picked a caster in every RPG I played that featured one, I specialized in raw elements whenever possible and primarily in their destructive aspects. Topping the dps charts is just a by-product. It's not even a goal. The actual focus isn't even killing the boss, it's having fun. And the thing is, I find it no fun to slack around, letting the team do all the work. I prefer to do my part of the job and do it well. And since my class, which I picked for its flavor, is pretty good at dealing damage, that's what I do. That's what my teammates expect of me and I'm not letting them down.When I see my dps I know that's not just me, that's the whole team doing a great job. And it feels damn good.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

iThe mage archetype is not dps, it is far closer to what GW2 is aiming for dps/cc/healing. Raiding in the last 15 years skewed that (causing a lot of damage on the way), dps meters and tuned fights forced raid leaders to optimise roles.

 

e.g http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyCharacterClasses

[Feanor.2358]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> iThe mage archetype is not dps, it is far closer to what GW2 is aiming for dps/cc/healing. Raiding in the last 15 years skewed that (causing a lot of damage on the way), dps meters and tuned fights forced raid leaders to optimise roles.

>

> e.g http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyCharacterClasses

 

Trying to shoehorn the whole variety of mages into a single archetype is like trying to say everything with an internal combustion engine is a lawn mower because you've seen a leaflet advertising a lawn mower with one. There's are huge differences, there have always been. For instance, some mage classes in D&D are excellent controllers, others are powerful strikers (a.k.a. dps). These existed and people optimized their damage output long before raids even existed as a concept. But just like with raids, people didn't do it because they *had* to, they did it because they *wanted* to.

[Genesis.5169]

Asking for nerfs in PvE content is retarded to the highest degree having said that let me chime in. The lower hp and the less defensive your class is the more damage it should deal. Given that Gaurdians and Ele have the lowest hp around they should do highest dps by that virtue alone.

 

Warriors should be nowhere near the top of the dps chart whatsoever due to the amount of hp and defensive tools they have baseline to the class, i really get tired when the community screams nerfs for unplayed classes and buffs for over played ones. Ele clothies should do more dps then heavies anyways just by virtue of the genre of fantasy,

 

Lol why is R3t@rded censored anet please.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > iThe mage archetype is not dps, it is far closer to what GW2 is aiming for dps/cc/healing. Raiding in the last 15 years skewed that (causing a lot of damage on the way), dps meters and tuned fights forced raid leaders to optimise roles.

> >

> > e.g http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyCharacterClasses

>

> Trying to shoehorn the whole variety of mages into a single archetype is like trying to say everything with an internal combustion engine is a lawn mower because you've seen a leaflet advertising a lawn mower with one. There's are huge differences, there have always been. For instance, some mage classes in D&D are excellent controllers, others are powerful strikers (a.k.a. dps). These existed and people optimized their damage output long before raids even existed as a concept. But just like with raids, people didn't do it because they *had* to, they did it because they *wanted* to.

 

Agree the single archetype makes no sense.

 

As for raids, you HAD to optimise dps for tuned fights or you would not progress, and worse still, that meant you HAD to play the meta builds which were focused on 1 facet of gameplay to fit the trinity. as you say, players would only do this if they want to, and 90% ish of the entire player base dont, because they would have to conform to this style of gameplay. This comes from a mmorpg style where raids had to last and give meaning to constantly increasing power curves - and the easiest way to do that is to simplify down to 3 blunt n dull roles - the dpser, the healer and the tank - and thats where the confusion with the classic archetypes come from - people who have only ever known dps/healer/tank.

[Feanor.2358]

The thing you're missing is this: you don't need much to progress. I became a skilled raider long after I've made my kills on all bosses. You're putting the drive on the necessity, and that's wrong. The necessity didn't exist, I could have stayed on the same level I was. I chose to progress, because I enjoyed the process. This is also true for playing meta builds. No, you don't have to play these. Raids are absolutely doable with off-meta builds and compositions, as long as you're willing to put the effort to learn the fights, understand the encounters and build your compositions accordingly. The one thing that raids do not let you do is enter with a completely random comp and beat them without paying attention to the mechanics. This, however, is not a drawback. It's a feature, and a valuable one. That's the whole point of raiding.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> The thing you're missing is this: you don't need much to progress. I became a skilled raider long after I've made my kills on all bosses. You're putting the drive on the necessity, and that's wrong. The necessity didn't exist, I could have stayed on the same level I was. I chose to progress, because I enjoyed the process. This is also true for playing meta builds. No, you don't have to play these. Raids are absolutely doable with off-meta builds and compositions, as long as you're willing to put the effort to learn the fights, understand the encounters and build your compositions accordingly. The one thing that raids do not let you do is enter with a completely random comp and beat them without paying attention to the mechanics. This, however, is not a drawback. It's a feature, and a valuable one. That's the whole point of raiding.

 

Raiding has a place and a purpose, and as long as people dont try to force a player to play a build when its not actually required to do so all is well, archetypes can continue to live without being dunted into a role like single dimensional profile.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > The thing you're missing is this: you don't need much to progress. I became a skilled raider long after I've made my kills on all bosses. You're putting the drive on the necessity, and that's wrong. The necessity didn't exist, I could have stayed on the same level I was. I chose to progress, because I enjoyed the process. This is also true for playing meta builds. No, you don't have to play these. Raids are absolutely doable with off-meta builds and compositions, as long as you're willing to put the effort to learn the fights, understand the encounters and build your compositions accordingly. The one thing that raids do not let you do is enter with a completely random comp and beat them without paying attention to the mechanics. This, however, is not a drawback. It's a feature, and a valuable one. That's the whole point of raiding.

>

> Raiding has a place and a purpose, and as long as people dont try to force a player to play a build when its not actually required to do so all is well, archetypes can continue to live without being dunted into a role like single dimensional profile.

 

Requiring specific class/build is also something that predated raids. It's part of the same min-maxing mindset and people will keep doing it, because it is their right to. And that's fine, too. When your idea of fun differs, just find other people to play who share yours. There are enough players in a MMO so you can find enough of both sides.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

Its not the only thing that predated raids, RPGs offered legendary gameplay where the greatest nights were where innovation won in the face of diversity. As long as min-maxers dont force their ideas onto others when its not required, all is well.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> Its not the only thing that predated raids, RPGs offered legendary gameplay where the greatest nights were where innovation won in the face of diversity. As long as min-maxers dont force their ideas onto others when its not required, all is well.

 

This goes both ways. I don't force my way onto you, and in return you don't try to do the same to me. And then yes, all is well.