Why Necromancer in PvE doesn't work.

[Rikimaru.7890]

For this explanation I will mostly reference HoT Elite Specialization since they are more well known right now, but I will mention Scourge at the end.

I will also mostly reference Boss battles, as let's be honest they are the main obstacles at high-end PvE.

And this is going to be a bit long so bare with me. So let's start with something basic:

 

**1) Survivability is not the answer**

Don't get me wrong the Necromancers ability to take a lot of punishment can come in handy in PvE. Like when exploring the open world, no one has it more easy than the Necromancer there if you ask me. All they have to do is pull out their minions for distractions, add Blood Magic so they steal life for them and the Necromancer is almost impossible to kill.

But it falls flat in the end when fighting Bosses. Of course when new content comes out Necromancers are more than welcome as their ability to take a hit comes in handy then.

Like when the Nightmare Fractal came out with it's challenge mode, the Necromancers were the front liners to doing it the first time, as no one knew how to properly avoid the AOE of Ensolyss. But once people learn how to avoid the big damage attacks the Necromancers survivability loses it's usefulness, as even Elementalists who drop dead when someone sneezes at them will be able to survive the fight after learning the patterns.

So it pretty much looks like this:

- Hey Necro

- Yeah?

- You can take a hit how about you go first while we see what happens?

- Umm Ok

- Good and report whatever you find out now off you go

*some time later*

- Ok guys I'm back I'm still sore all over, but here is what I found out, you have to XYZ and after he does ABC you need to DEF

- Oh so that's how it works, well tyvm now you can go

- What?

- Yeah we don't need you anymore your small part in this is over now leave the rest to the pro's

- But I'm the one who worked hard to learn all those mechanics

- So you want a cookie? Just get lost your DPS is too slow for our standards

 

**2) Too many below 50% effects**

Not only does Necromancer lack damage boosting traits, but their strongest which gives 20% "Close to Death" only takes effect when foe is below 50% health.

And it's hardly a good thing for boss battles who have tons of health, as no one likes a class which will be fully effective for half of the fight. Other classes have damage boosting traits which conditions can be fulfilled for the whole battle.

So for starters such traits/skills could be changed to be more like the Soulbeasts "Oppressive Superiority" which takes effect when opponent has less % of health than them. Then the Necromancer could reach full effect for the whole battle, because as long as the boss is at 99% or less health while the Necromancer is at 100% all their health based effects would kick in.

Right those were the appetizers, now time for the main course.

 

**3) The Necromancers gained NOTHING from their Elite Specialization**

The Elite Specs give each class something new like the Tempests "Overloads." Some new effects are awsome like the Druids "Celestial Avatar" or the Chronomancers "Continuum Split", others not so much like the Scrappers "Function Gyro" or the Daredevils 3rd dodge, but all gain something except the Necromancer. The Reapers Shroud is not an additional mechanic but an altered old mechanic. The only other class which gets the same treatment is the Guardian, their Dragonhunter Elite Spec simply alters their Virtues.

**However the DH Virtues are boosted versions of the Guardians**, if you compare the DH Virtues with those of the base Guardians counterparts you will notice that their passive effects are the same, but their activations effects are clearly buffed. While the Reaper Shrouds skills are not so much, for example the DPS of Life Blast is about 265,7 while the DPS of Reaper Shrouds AA is about 308,4, so it is not much better and we have to remember that Life Blast is a ranged attack while Reaper Shrouds AA is melee, so it's pretty lame that their damage is almost the same. Rest is no better each skill gains something but at the same time loses something else like Death's Charge deals more damage than Dark Path, but loses the Bleeding and Chill effects, which is ironic due to the fact Reaper is focused around Chilling. Soul Spiral deals more damage and Poisons but loses Life Transfers ability to rip life force out of enemies. Not to mention the fact Death Shroud skills usually hit more foes than Reaper Shound counterparts.

It's true that Reaper Shrouds AA makes better use of "Dhuumfire" due to the fact it strikes 3 times faster than Life Blast does 2 times, but remember that DH Virtues are clearly superior to base Guardians with or without traits. And despite what you may think the fact the old Traits effect the Elite mechanic is a BAD thing and not a good one. And on that note let's move on to the next point.

 

**4) Old Traits effecting new mechanic directly is a bad thing**

Why is the "Celestial Avatar" so effective? It's because it's a new mechanic which is uneffected direcly by the old traits, so all the boosts it gets come only from the "Druid" Traits, making it very easy to trait it to maximum effectiveness. There are of course traits that can boost it indirectly like "Quick Draw" due to the fact activating Celestial Avatar counts as changing a weapon set, but it's not a direct boost.

Reaper Shroud however inherits traits from Death Shroud making it difficult to reach full potencial since all Shroud traits are scattered among most of the trait lines except Curses, making it difficult to decide which boosts to take. And thats a big problem as certain trait lines may work well for Reaper Shroud but not so much for the rest of the build.

But if Reaper Shroud recieved the same treatment as Celestial Avatar then it would be too overpowered when adding the effects of the old traits.

For example a condi build could benefit from "Reaper's Might" from Spite, "Dhuumfire" from Soul Reaping and obviously Curses as last, but that puts Reaper out of the equation.

And as I said before Reaper Shrouds AA would apply these effects faster than Life Blast.

Now let's look at the Guardian again as their old traits also effect their new mechanic, **BUT most of the traits that effect Vitrues come from the "Virtues" trait line** while most other trait lines only have 1 minor trait that effects them. So the Guardian does not really suffer from the same drawback. Also unlike Death Shroud, Virtues DO NOT require "fuel" and on that note on to the next point.

 

**5) Necromancers "fuel" is hard to come by**

Of course gaining Life Force from random enemies deaths is easy, but it's not so easy when fighting a Boss that takes a long time to kill. Some Bosses spawn adds which can serve as a source of fast Life Force, but many bosses never spawn any adds forcing Necromancer to rely on skills that give them Life Force. But the effect is far inferior to other classes that require "fuel."

For example Warriors gain Adrenaline from simply hitting something, same goes for the Druid and their Astral Force and while hitting may not be the best solution both have additional ways to gain their "fuel." Wariors have skills that can instantly give them full adrenaline, while the Druid also gains Astral Force from healing others and as a person who plays Druid often I can tell from experience that Astral Force can refill faster than Celestial Avatar recharges at times and remember it only takes 10s.

While the Necromancer only gains life force from skills that specifically grant Life Force so it's not so easy to refill as for other classes that require "fuel." So even if it gave superb effects it would require using skills that refill Life Force the fastest during a long fight, which again messes with creating proper builds.

 

**6) Scourge suffers from same drawbacks and more**

For this I will mostly compare it with the Mesmer as it's most similar to their "Shatter" skills when it comes to mechanics and they also require "fuel" to work.

The Shades are a dumb idea, for starters they don't move so they are most effective against stationary Bosses like Gorseval, but ones that are constantly on the move like Vale Guardian not so much. Another thing is the fact **they do NOTHING on their own,** so if the Necromancer is out of "fuel" they only serve as a creepy decoration on the ground. Which makes them inferior AOE effects to those of other classes like Elementalist, for example their Lava Font is also ground target, but once placed it works it's DPS on it's own instead of the need to "detonate" it. If an enemy runs out of the Lava Font, then too bad, but it won't hinder the Elementalist in any other way.

But now back to the Mesmer, the "fuel" they use are their Clones and Phantasms which they can have up to 3, with the Shatters giving stronger effects the more Clones and Phantasms they have. The difference is however that **Clones and Phantasms attack ON THEIR OWN** and once the Mesmer uses a Shatter they rush toward the target, while Shades always stay put.

It would make much more sense if they were more like the Vale Guardians "Seekers" that they slowly move toward their target. And the Shades don't attract enemies on their own so the Necromancer often has to play the "dart board" to direct them into their AOE range.

And again "fuel" is a problem during a Boss fight, Mesmers however don't care if their Clones and Phantasms attack same target or 3 different, so they don't need adds for a refill.

 

So that would be it I guess, be sure to add your own thoughts in the comments.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Aetatis.5418]

1) its not like nobody will figure out how to do bosses. warrior, mesmer, guards can figure out mechanics just as fine with high health, distortion, evades and blocks en masse. but it is considerable easy with a necro, thats right (life-leech (per hit, per minion hit)+ 2x healthbar).

 

2) below 50% is also not too bad. thief got it, ele got it. its a good mechanic. in fact, most bosses tend to get harder, the lower on health they are; more dmg below 50% just means that you can get rid of those mechanics faster by killing the boss faster.

when below x% gets annoying is when you have an axe-skill that triggers below 25% and does not add anything to your dmg, when AA is stronger anyway and it adds just that tiny bit of dmg to the utility of stripping boons. in pvp this is also hardly an executioner, since it is hard to hit a thief/ele/guard/warrior/druid below 25% because they constantly heal themself up above 25%. they idea was good... expectations are high... reality is poor.

 

the soulbeast ability does not fit aswell? i like to think about it, but ... idk. maybe?

imagine: necro uses the conditions on his grp-mates, stacks them on himself and transfers them to a boss/player. the necro will most likely be lower than his target. so the dmg does not add up. just one scenario taht would kill the idea.

 

better coeffitients on the weapons, or another core boost of raw dmg is what the necro needs imo. and is so super easy done without breaking the class completely,

 

3) do not compare bare numbers without coefficients and gearstats. it doesnt show anything. the whole picture is different after calculations.

not saying your idea is bad, but not complete. PLUS reaper AA keeps your lf up. you can stay way longer in reaper shroud than deathshroud... so imo its okay that it does add only little dps in comparison.

 

3.1)also, the necro got stability and "more" mobility with the reaper, which he didnt have before. necro got barriers for allies with scourge, which is new aswell (and nobody offers as much grp-barrier as the scourge... even if it still sucks). and sometimes we must face it, there is just not something gamebreaking new for everybody.

 

4) too complicated for me to think about too much-

but if you think of the scourge - barrier traits are a scourge only thing.

reaper: chill traits (beside one) are a reaper thing only

bot are mechanics that got introduced with the new specialization.

 

5) lifeforce aka "fuel"

lifeforce on power is just fine. if you use dagger, axe or greatsword... well if you are running out of lifeforce, even on scourge, you are doing something wrong. with a few exceptions, it is possible to refill lifeforce in 10sec (cd of shroud) + faster if something dies. this also applies to pvp, it is "just good enough".

on condition i figured there is a tiny lack of lf generation, as scepter does not generate enough and dagger offhand offers... nothing.

on the other hand: scourge has to be capped at some point. the f1-f5 skills are super low cd-skills. if you just mindlessly spam them on cd by generating 50% lifeforce in 2sec... why bothering with giving them lf-cost anyway? i'd suggest a lillte bit more generation on condition... thats all.

 

if you think about lf generation from another aspect, if you go tryhard, you can keep a power reaper above 50% lf IN shroud for more than one minute (given, that nobody attacks you with big hits). -> traited signets (which are super bad and do not compete with anything... but it is possible). you could possibly do that ith a scourge aswell... it just happens, that the traits and skill synrgize very bad.

 

6) i compare shades more with wells... overpowered wells on steroids on almost 0 cd. much like the virtues on firebrand... which are able to do anything a core guard can if the core guardian could slot all his utility skills at once.

 

[Coldtart.4785]

Really the problem is that when you play pve you aren't really playing gw2, so all these mechanics that necro can do just don't do anything.

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @Coldtart.4785 said:

> Really the problem is that when you play pve you aren't really playing gw2,

 


 

 

 

[Brighteluden.2974]

> @Coldtart.4785 said:

> Really the problem is that when you play pve you aren't really playing gw2, so all these mechanics that necro can do just don't do anything.

 

That makes no sense when roughly what 70% or more of the content in this game in PvE lol Don't get me wrong I love pvp as much as anyone having hit legend in Spvp and my WvW rank is around 2kish atm but I also PvE quite frequently and want to feel a sense of viability when playing PvE.

[obcan.1470]

Wanna feel sense of viability? Make ele. Or guard. Why would you ever think that necro is going to be good in PvE? There are 9 classes in game and one has to be worst. Too bad you chose wrong.

[obcan.1470]

Also one more note before you start typing necro has been worst since ever. Why do you think that should change? If you ignore Druid Warrior and Mesmer in PvE because devs made them stupidly overpowered and unless they fuck them over completely, they are not going to change. Then you are left with dps spot. If you think that Necro deserves better spot than end of dps table, you are delusional. If you say necro should have comparable dps to classes like thief, guard, engineer or even fucking elementalist stop dreaming. And dont tell me that scourge is harder to play than firebrand. Scourge is WvW spec just like scrapper is. Where are scrapper builds in PvE? Where are deadeye builds? Get used to it. Make new character. Noone is stopping you.

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @obcan.1470 said:

> Wanna feel sense of viability? Make ele. Or guard. Why would you ever think that necro is going to be good in PvE? There are 9 classes in game and one has to be worst. Too bad you chose wrong.

 

> @obcan.1470 said:

> Also one more note before you start typing necro has been worst since ever. Why do you think that should change? If you ignore Druid Warrior and Mesmer in PvE because devs made them stupidly overpowered and unless they kitten them over completely, they are not going to change. Then you are left with dps spot. If you think that Necro deserves better spot than end of dps table, you are delusional. If you say necro should have comparable dps to classes like thief, guard, engineer or even kitten elementalist stop dreaming. And dont tell me that scourge is harder to play than firebrand. Scourge is WvW spec just like scrapper is. Where are scrapper builds in PvE? Where are deadeye builds? Get used to it. Make new character. Noone is stopping you.

 

that's not how Balancing works.............

[Aetatis.5418]

> @obcan.1470 said:

> Also one more note before you start typing necro has been worst since ever. Why do you think that should change? If you ignore Druid Warrior and Mesmer in PvE because devs made them stupidly overpowered and unless they kitten them over completely, they are not going to change. Then you are left with dps spot. If you think that Necro deserves better spot than end of dps table, you are delusional. If you say necro should have comparable dps to classes like thief, guard, engineer or even kitten elementalist stop dreaming. And dont tell me that scourge is harder to play than firebrand. Scourge is WvW spec just like scrapper is. Where are scrapper builds in PvE? Where are deadeye builds? Get used to it. Make new character. Noone is stopping you.

 

scrapper is wvw sure. but holo is very good in pve. so is core engi (although kinda hard to play when trying to get its full potential).

scourge is wvw.

condi reaper can somewhat do solo stuff (roaming, pvp) - so is power reaper. but they are below average at doing so.

core necro... well... open world minions and killing open world mobs slooowly. not counting that one tbh.

 

so you say scourge is good at wvw and thats enough for necro.

i mean everybody has an opinion, right...

 

btw. most players being serious about necro, do not ask for 37k dps plus barrier (if playing scourge ofc). they are asking for something in pve that is "just good enough". BECAUSE necro is a) easy to play b) very forgiving because of 2x healthbar, lifeleech like a master.

nothing game-breaking. a solid realistic 30k-31k dps plus a grp-buff that is not as bad as vampiric presence is. which is still at the very bottom but not as bad as it is now.

[obcan.1470]

Thats exactly how balancing should work. Give me good argument why reaper should have more dps than engineer, Daredevil or Firebrand. Engineer is arguably second hardest class to play Daredevil has no hp and so does firebrand. Firebrand also has no CC. So tell me why class with more hp, shroud, heavy CCs should deal comparable damage.

[Maunzi.3764]

> @obcan.1470 said:

> Thats exactly how balancing should work.

 

I understand that you believe that balancing works by making your class better than other classes so you can slack, continue to be terrible, and be carried by your class. But in reality, holosmith is way easier to play than Scourge and does more, Firebrand is MUCH more survivable than scourge, offers more support at the same time (dat quickness yo), and does more damage. And is easier to play, too.

 

Again: I understand that you feel entitled to have your class perform better than others, but that's just an entitlement complex. At the end of the day, your ego is not a good reason for class imbalance.

 

>. If you say necro should have comparable dps to classes like thief, guard, engineer or even kitten elementalist stop dreaming.

 

You have yet to explain why Necro should be worse than them, other than you being completely terrible at the game, that is.

Yes, I know. It sucks that a base necro (not even scourge or reaper) usually outdamages you, and that you tend to die to a single veteran mob that you then see a reaper defeat, but that's just a skill issue on your part. The reaper player could be playing a Holosmith and would be having as easy a time. Or they could be playing a mesmer, and would have an even easier time.

 

None of these failings of yours justify the class being bad, I'm afraid.

[Aetatis.5418]

> @obcan.1470 said:

> Thats exactly how balancing should work. Give me good argument why reaper should have more dps than engineer, Daredevil or Firebrand. Engineer is arguably second hardest class to play Daredevil has no hp and so does firebrand. Firebrand also has no CC. So tell me why class with more hp, shroud, heavy CCs should deal comparable damage.

 

maybe read again... nobody asked for MORE damage than the classes you mention. (well, i didnt ask for "more").

but realistic 36k dps on holosmith (which is just as easy to play) vs 26k realistic on reaper... doesnt make sense either, does it? so a solid and realistic 30k-31k would make a lot more sense to me.

give it a buff like enginners 150condi dmg on top... and everything is awesome (compared to now). still bottom dps (which is okay due to the simplicity and durability of the class), but solid enough for raids plus some little buff to be not completely useless. gg