Laugh away!

[Cobrakon.3108]

Great, Rifle is a support weapon.... thats nice since we didn't have another support weapon because our backstabs and assassin abilities..... oh whoops I guess that I forgot that every spec is +1.

 

I forgot what game I was playing. Maybe I was thinking about one of those other games with similar characters like Rogue, Assassin, other Thieves in other games, and Ninjas that actually are very bursty or are the most bursty class in the game.

 

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

> @Cobrakon.3108 said:

> Great, Rifle is a support weapon.... thats nice since we didn't have another support weapon because our backstabs and assassin abilities..... oh whoops I guess that I forgot that every spec is +1.

>

> I forgot what game I was playing. Maybe I was thinking about one of those other games with similar characters like Rogue, Assassin, other Thieves in other games, and Ninjas that actually are very bursty or are the most bursty class in the game.

>

 

Don't you know? You're not supposed to actually PLAY the thief. It's just kind of there. Anet's red-headed step child.

[Turk.5460]

> @"Keitaro Dragonheart.9047" said:

> > @Cobrakon.3108 said:

> > Great, Rifle is a support weapon.... thats nice since we didn't have another support weapon because our backstabs and assassin abilities..... oh whoops I guess that I forgot that every spec is +1.

> >

> > I forgot what game I was playing. Maybe I was thinking about one of those other games with similar characters like Rogue, Assassin, other Thieves in other games, and Ninjas that actually are very bursty or are the most bursty class in the game.

> >

>

> Don't you know? You're not supposed to actually PLAY the thief. It's just kind of there. Anet's red-headed step child.

 

Don't be that guy. Every profession subforum has players who think that their profession is the red-headed step-child of ANET.

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

> @Turk.5460 said:

> > @"Keitaro Dragonheart.9047" said:

> > > @Cobrakon.3108 said:

> > > Great, Rifle is a support weapon.... thats nice since we didn't have another support weapon because our backstabs and assassin abilities..... oh whoops I guess that I forgot that every spec is +1.

> > >

> > > I forgot what game I was playing. Maybe I was thinking about one of those other games with similar characters like Rogue, Assassin, other Thieves in other games, and Ninjas that actually are very bursty or are the most bursty class in the game.

> > >

> >

> > Don't you know? You're not supposed to actually PLAY the thief. It's just kind of there. Anet's red-headed step child.

>

> Don't be that guy. Every profession subforum has players who think that their profession is the red-headed step-child of ANET.

 

Why not? Thief and Necro have both been getting shafted in balance patches since launch.

[Xtinct.7031]

For those of us that used FFE with improve pre-nerf. The reduction and might and might durration isnt too bad, its the 1sec icd that really hurts becuase you can no longer really chain your stolen items back to back instantly to gain the 16 (20 pre-patch) might. It has to be staggered now after the 1sec icd at which time the second stolen item can be evaded/blocked/invul'd etc. This can be very problematic in non pve situations and in my opinion no longer makes DE a viable dps support build.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

The Deadeye takes several hits to run the support build. First, it has to lose executioner for improvisation (9.17% damage loss). Second, to take FFE you have to lose BQoBK (200 power and precision). Third, you have to lose the entire Critical Strikes line to get Trickery (450+ ferocity, 17% damage, but you gain 15%-ish from lead attacks). Fourth, you lose the scholar runes for strength runes (100 ferocity, 5% damage). Finally, they lose another small amount by losing Revealed Malice for One in the Chamber.

 

Overall, this is 200 power, 550 ferocity, and 16.17% total direct damage modifiers. That is a whole lot. I'm just taking a shot in the dark, but I'm assuming the deadeye would be lucky if it broke 20k DPS running a dedicated support build.

 

Anet's goal of creating more build diversity failed hard. Still, nobody is going to run a support deadeye or a herald, because they still pale in comparison to the warrior + druid combo.

[Zacchary.6183]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> The Deadeye takes several hits to run the support build. First, it has to lose executioner for improvisation (9.17% damage loss). Second, to take FFE you have to lose BQoBK (200 power and precision). Third, you have to lose the entire Critical Strikes line to get Trickery (450+ ferocity, 17% damage, but you gain 15%-ish from lead attacks). Fourth, you lose the scholar runes for strength runes (100 ferocity, 5% damage). Finally, they lose another small amount by losing Revealed Malice for One in the Chamber.

>

> Overall, this is 200 power, 550 ferocity, and 16.17% total direct damage modifiers. That is a whole lot. I'm just taking a shot in the dark, but I'm assuming the deadeye would be lucky if it broke 20k DPS running a dedicated support build.

>

> Anet's goal of creating more build diversity failed hard. Still, nobody is going to run a support deadeye or a herald, because they still pale in comparison to the warrior + druid combo.

 

You forgot to factor in the might stacks gotten from FFE, as combining it with improv gives you a long lasting and highly sustainable 480 power/condition damage for you and 9 other players.

[Zacchary.6183]

> @Sobx.1758 said:

> > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > @LazerusKI.7485 said:

> > > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > The only thing I am laughing about is how everyone is making a big fuss about about nothing. The biggest nerf in the set is DJ only working on the marked target. But it isn't like 80% of you guys use it anyways LOL!

> > >

> > > i hope you see the problem yourself. Rifle was allready garbage.

> > > IF DJ would have been changed into a piercing ability, THEN this would make sense...but this? This is just a joke...

> > >

> > >

> >

> >They complain about damage when they don't use the main damaging skill DJ and spam TRB instead.

>

> Where do you get all that info? Do you have some kind of reliable statistics that tell you (and us) what skills people keep using? What's the source of that statement? Because saying something that you "imagine is happening" and stating it as fact just so you can pretent you have an argument isn't exactly getting us anywhere. Why wouldn't people use DJ? (in a longer fight, obviously, using it with no-to-low malice is just stupid and a waste of resources)

It's called first-hand experience.

 

> >They complain about in combat mobility but don't use Death's Retreat.

>

> Costs kittenload of initiative which is needed for your burst skill and a lot of classes will still catch up with you (OR just run the other way to easly disengage and you won't catch most of them).

Name another profession that can move over 3k units in less than three seconds.

 

> >They complain about survivability when they spec glassy and not let the damage bonuses and self buffs make up for the lack of glass stats.

>

> Wait, so is DE glassy or not? You keep writing 2 contradicting things in different threads depending on what you need an argument for. You can't be both glassy and not glassy at the same time. Decide already and then use it as an argument.

Let me clarify. DE has near permafury, easy access to vast amounts of might/power/precision and they get another 20% crit rate from Sniper's Cover.

Precision is 21 points per 1% and max needed for 100% is 2995.

Sniper's Cover Crit Chance Bonus: **+420 precision** (20 crit chance x 21 points per 1% = 420)

Permafury: **+420 precision**

DJ's revealed procs Revealed Training/easy access to stealth and revealed: **+200 power.** (might as well be a buff since revealed means nothing to a Deadeye)

Hidden Killer with easy access to stealth and revealed: **100% crit rate or 2995 precision**

BQoBK Quickness on mark and Quickness bonus: **+200 power/prec**

FFE + Improv: **+480 power/condition damage**

Cursed Bullet Kneel bonus: **+20% damage**

DJ Malice Bonus: **+75 - 105% damage**

 

With all of these buffs available, putting a little tanky stats into your build will not hurt a thing. So why should any Deadeye go full glass? They shouldn't, but they do anyways because that's how they think Deadeye should be played.

> > The issues with rifle are on the player. I have been saying this since day 0.

>

> No, the rifle had a lot of issues and this patch still didn't touch enough of them.

I'll give you lack of damage, but the bugs have been fixed and the rifle now forces players to use it as it was intended. The only nerf that affected me this update was 4 might, 3 seconds and an adjustment to my rotation. My damage is the same and my might is more guaranteed. Everyone else is complaining about uninstall-my-game level nerfs that don't exist.

> > @Nitron.6405 said:

> > Multi-target damage nerfed (fair enough, it's a single target spec, right?), single target DPS... still too low for PVE. Rifle Deadeye should be THE go-to single target DPS spec given the amount of restrictions in place.

>

> True, it's mind boggling how a lot of people seem to not understand that.

If they keep mark up, stop spamming three, keep their distance and use better methods of getting might, they won't need to understand.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > The Deadeye takes several hits to run the support build. First, it has to lose executioner for improvisation (9.17% damage loss). Second, to take FFE you have to lose BQoBK (200 power and precision). Third, you have to lose the entire Critical Strikes line to get Trickery (450+ ferocity, 17% damage, but you gain 15%-ish from lead attacks). Fourth, you lose the scholar runes for strength runes (100 ferocity, 5% damage). Finally, they lose another small amount by losing Revealed Malice for One in the Chamber.

> >

> > Overall, this is 200 power, 550 ferocity, and 16.17% total direct damage modifiers. That is a whole lot. I'm just taking a shot in the dark, but I'm assuming the deadeye would be lucky if it broke 20k DPS running a dedicated support build.

> >

> > Anet's goal of creating more build diversity failed hard. Still, nobody is going to run a support deadeye or a herald, because they still pale in comparison to the warrior + druid combo.

>

> You forgot to factor in the might stacks gotten from FFE, as combining it with improv gives you a long lasting and highly sustainable 480 power/condition damage for you and 9 other players.

 

Not forgotten. I'm comparing the boon generation and DPS ratio of the Deadeye to the other support builds. Namely, Druid, Herald, Renegade, and cPS Berserker.

 

The Druid is special because it is a healer and not a DPS spec, but right now the Deadeye is beaten out by the cPS Berserker hands down. After the druid's might, the might given out by Signet of Inspiration from Chronomancers, there is little purpose to bring anything else other than a cPS Berserker. Even after the nerf to Phalanx Strength, it'll still generate enough might to fill the holes that Druid + Chrono leave. The other advantages that the Berserker has is substantially higher damage, as well as a menagerie of unique buffs that no other class has.

 

The Herald has ease of use, and it also has higher DPS than the Deadeye. But for pure might generation the Renegade is an underrated option. You'll have to sacrifice a little DPS to make for the energy cost, but Heroic Command sustains 15 might by itself. If you can sustain the fire field from Searing Fissure, then the might blasts from Echoing Eruption combined with Heroic Command will keep the team might capped, no build sacrifices required. This comes with Assassin's Presence.

 

Right now, the only thing that support Deadeye has going for it is the variety of boons. It is the only class that gives 50% vigor uptime, and it also gives out fury and swiftness. From the support build standpoint, the Deadeye is pretty weak, and this recent update reduced the might generation abilities of the class by 36%. If we're expected to be a meta-relevant support role, we'll need several buffs:

 

One in the Chamber NEEDs to reduce the cooldown of cantrips.

Peripheral Vision NEEDs to be baseline, or wrapped up with FFE.

Fire for Effect NEEDS to last longer. 16 seconds, maybe more.

Perfectionist NEEDs to give its own boons in an AoE.

 

And that's just the start. We still need DPS buffs to the deadeye overall. I did a quick test to compare a DPS Deadeye with a buff one (except they both have scholar runes). With no food and qT's standards, the Deadeye DPS build averages around 25k, while the support build (with scholars) averages around 18k. Take away 8% for the scholar ferocity and full bonus, and you'll get 16.5k DPS. Also for reference, I compared this to a power herald, and I averaged 21k DPS with it.

[LazerusKI.7485]

> @Riddle.2714 said:

> > @LazerusKI.7485 said:

>

> > doesnt matter, when i last checked my DJ hit for 16k or so with 7 Malice and 25 Might. I was able to use it just once, if i were lucky twice.

> > Unload started at 10k with the ability to chain it as long as i want...

> > thats what i mean when i say that the "burst" from DJ is a joke.

> >

> > And now that i need to hit the marked target its even weaker because in pve there is always another enemy that can get hit instead...

>

> Just curious, what do you wear? That dmg is kinda low for 7 malice & 25 might

> And DJ could be used 2 times at worst, 3 times at best, even without trickery.

 

https://gw2efficiency.com/c/Lazerus%20Ghostshot pretty much full Berserker. PVE only.

(tips for improvement are always welcome)

 

> @Turk.5460 said:

> > @LazerusKI.7485 said:

> > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > @LazerusKI.7485 said:

> > > > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > > > > @LazerusKI.7485 said:

> > > > > > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > > > > > @LazerusKI.7485 said:

> > > > > > > > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LazerusKI.7485 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LazerusKI.7485 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing I am laughing about is how everyone is making a big fuss about about nothing. The biggest nerf in the set is DJ only working on the marked target. But it isn't like 80% of you guys use it anyways LOL!

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > i hope you see the problem yourself. Rifle was allready garbage.

> > > > > > > > > > > > IF DJ would have been changed into a piercing ability, THEN this would make sense...but this? This is just a joke...

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > TBH most of the people who were running around with rifle deadeye had no clue how to play it. They complain about damage when they don't use the main damaging skill DJ and spam TRB instead. They complain about in combat mobility but don't use Death's Retreat. They complain about survivability when they spec glassy and not let the damage bonuses and self buffs make up for the lack of glass stats.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The issues with rifle are on the player. I have been saying this since day 0.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > yeah because the damage from DJ istn that high when you consider its "chargetime". There are other skills on other weapons that deal far more damage. Whats the use of Quickness for example on a Rifle when Malice generation isnt affected by it? Meanwhile its great for Unload spamming, which kills most normal pve enemies after one or two uses without actually wasting energy thanks to the refund it has. Thanks to the recharge of the mark on kill you can profit from all the "on steal" effects as often as you want too.

> > > > > > > > > > All of that was discussed over and over again, the slow Malice generation, the lack or area attacks or piercing shots, the lack of energy for skills...

> > > > > > > > > > And all we get is yet another nerf that limits stolen skills and DJ to the marked target?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > This is exactly what I am talking about. The Deadeye was meant to be a long ranged burst/support spec. Single target. It wasn't supposed to have AoE or "energy". It wasn't meant to be fast-paced. Yet players seem to think that is how its supposed to work and are having a horrible time with it.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > yeah but he cant do that! he has no "longrange burst" because DJ needs malice, malice needs attacks, attacks cause the enemy to run towards you.

> > > > > > > > he has no other "hard hitting skills" besides TRB either since DJ needs time/malice.

> > > > > > > > Pistols are a far better "long range burst" since they can mark - gain quickness, cast unload - gain might and get back initiative. TRB gives 9 might for 6s and costs 4 energy. Unload gives 8 might of 8s costs 5 energy and refunds 2, so its basically cheaper while at the same time it hits for almost the same damage as DJ or even more when you look at it from a dps perspective.

> > > > > > > > If im wrong then please tell me where this "long range burst" is hidden on my rifle, because so far it seems like its hiding on my Pistols

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yes, it is called Death's Judgement. It's a single shot with a cast time as fast as the rifle auto and it doesn't rely on bullets landing to get its damage buff. It doesn't need TRB to set up because there are better ways to get might than spamming 3. Namely, Fire for Effect.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > TRB is a waste of initiative. The might is so short lived that by the time you run out of initiative your damage boost is gone. And like TRB, Unload has to land all bullets to get the full amount might and initiative gain. This makes it almost mandatory to maximize quickness uptime in order to get as much as you can out of them. But a majority of quickness comes from BQBK which lasts a total of 4s, meaning that you have to burst your target down fast or you lose your damage and speed bonus.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > With FFE and Improv, you can start off with 16 stacks of long lasting might for the cost of nothing. You can boost that to 24 with One in the Chamber and one of the Cantrips. Or you can use Revealed Malice, Mark > Stolen Skill > Sniper's Cover > second Stolen Skill (to proc it), and have 19 long lasting might and 2 malice from the getgo. With one of these methods, you are already super buffed without having to use barely any initiative by the time you are ready to fire off your first DJ. And it hits hard.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And thats not "burst".

> > > > > > P/P and spamming Unload while under Quickness at the beginning of the fight - thats burst.

> > > > > > Tickling your enemy for 10s and then hitting once for high damage - thats not burst, thats a finisher that only "normalises" the damage you missed while "charging up".

> > > > > > If the malice generation would be faster so that you could use DJ before it isnt worth using anymore, then you could call it "burst". But in its current state its not, not when Unload spam or even Heartseeker are a thing.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And even then, having only 1 skill to use on rifle because all the others eat up its energy...thats not what i would call balanced.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But thanks for the tip with the Might generation

> > > > >

> > > > > You don't even need much malice to get high numbers on DJ. I have said this numerous times before. 19-20 Might with two malice will make DJ deal 10k crits, even with valk/marauders. Non-vets die just as fast as with glassy d/p auto, but with my range I don't even have to move. I've gotten salty whispers because I parked my kitten and killed everything around me, using the same build, while a d/p daredevil was running around failing to get a single hit. And all I was doing was Mark > Stolen skills > Sniper's Cover > DJ > auto > Repeat. Now its Sniper's Cover between stolen skill uses, but my damage was pretty much unchanged. Just saying.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @Gwii.5972 said:

> > > > > > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > > > > With FFE and Improv, you can start off with 16 stacks of long lasting might for the cost of nothing.

> > > > > > > You can boost that to 24 with One in the Chamber and one of the Cantrips.

> > > > > > At the cost of time, which means at the cost of dps. With 1s ICD, we need 2 sec to finish casting stolen skills, >3 sec if using One in the Chamber. That's about one full auto attack chain plus 2 weakening strikes, or 2 rounds of unload there.

> > > > > With a glassy build, I would totally agree with you. But when you spec with tankier stats and enough cleanse/healing to keep you set, time doesn't matter as much. That is another thing I have mentioned numerous times. You do not have to spec glassy with Deadeye, yet people do it anyway for that little bit of extra damage.

> > > > >

> > > > > > > Or you can use Revealed Malice, Mark > Stolen Skill > Sniper's Cover > second Stolen Skill (to proc it), and have 19 long lasting might and 2 malice from the getgo. With one of these methods, you are already super buffed without having to use barely any initiative by the time you are ready to fire off your first DJ. And it hits hard.

> > > > > > I tried your open world build. Including ramping up, an average of10k-ish at such slow attack speed (uncurable by quickness because of the high initiative cost) is just meh. I still fail to see any motivation to sacrifice movement for rifle.

> > > > > >

> > > > > Rifle has movement too. Death's retreat is a really good gap opener and kite skill. And with the shadowstep fix to, it can port up terrain assuming you can walk there.

> > > >

> > > > yeah and 10k DJ is a bad joke when even my Unload that i can spam all the time hits for 10k+, and i dont need Malice or Might for that.

> > >

> > > I have almost twice your HP, though. That's why. :P

> >

> > doesnt matter, when i last checked my DJ hit for 16k or so with 7 Malice and 25 Might. I was able to use it just once, if i were lucky twice.

> > Unload started at 10k with the ability to chain it as long as i want...

> > thats what i mean when i say that the "burst" from DJ is a joke.

> >

> > And now that i need to hit the marked target its even weaker because in pve there is always another enemy that can get hit instead...

>

> Maybe you should stop focusing your entire gameplay around that one attack. There is no reason to compare it to Unload. Actually engage and fight your opponent rather than just trying to juke and stealth for the opportunity to press the 4 key. Then, once you hit 7 malice stacks, see if you can get DJ off as a finisher.

 

The reason to compare it is simple. Unload is the only other hard hitting ranged attack a thief has. Again, im not playing pvp at all, its all pve, and in pve the enemies rarely dodge so most of the time Unload can hit all its shots with ease. If you play with rifle its hard not to focus on the one attack that actually deals damage.

[Zacchary.6183]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > The Deadeye takes several hits to run the support build. First, it has to lose executioner for improvisation (9.17% damage loss). Second, to take FFE you have to lose BQoBK (200 power and precision). Third, you have to lose the entire Critical Strikes line to get Trickery (450+ ferocity, 17% damage, but you gain 15%-ish from lead attacks). Fourth, you lose the scholar runes for strength runes (100 ferocity, 5% damage). Finally, they lose another small amount by losing Revealed Malice for One in the Chamber.

> > >

> > > Overall, this is 200 power, 550 ferocity, and 16.17% total direct damage modifiers. That is a whole lot. I'm just taking a shot in the dark, but I'm assuming the deadeye would be lucky if it broke 20k DPS running a dedicated support build.

> > >

> > > Anet's goal of creating more build diversity failed hard. Still, nobody is going to run a support deadeye or a herald, because they still pale in comparison to the warrior + druid combo.

> >

> > You forgot to factor in the might stacks gotten from FFE, as combining it with improv gives you a long lasting and highly sustainable 480 power/condition damage for you and 9 other players.

>

> Not forgotten. I'm comparing the boon generation and DPS ratio of the Deadeye to the other support builds. Namely, Druid, Herald, Renegade, and cPS Berserker.

>

> The Druid is special because it is a healer and not a DPS spec, but right now the Deadeye is beaten out by the cPS Berserker hands down. After the druid's might, the might given out by Signet of Inspiration from Chronomancers, there is little purpose to bring anything else other than a cPS Berserker. Even after the nerf to Phalanx Strength, it'll still generate enough might to fill the holes that Druid + Chrono leave. The other advantages that the Berserker has is substantially higher damage, as well as a menagerie of unique buffs that no other class has.

>

> The Herald has ease of use, and it also has higher DPS than the Deadeye. But for pure might generation the Renegade is an underrated option. You'll have to sacrifice a little DPS to make for the energy cost, but Heroic Command sustains 15 might by itself. If you can sustain the fire field from Searing Fissure, then the might blasts from Echoing Eruption combined with Heroic Command will keep the team might capped, no build sacrifices required. This comes with Assassin's Presence.

>

> Right now, the only thing that support Deadeye has going for it is the variety of boons. It is the only class that gives 50% vigor uptime, and it also gives out fury and swiftness. From the support build standpoint, the Deadeye is pretty weak, and this recent update reduced the might generation abilities of the class by 36%. If we're expected to be a meta-relevant support role, we'll need several buffs:

>

> One in the Chamber NEEDs to reduce the cooldown of cantrips.

> Peripheral Vision NEEDs to be baseline, or wrapped up with FFE.

> Fire for Effect NEEDS to last longer. 16 seconds, maybe more.

> Perfectionist NEEDs to give its own boons in an AoE.

>

> And that's just the start. We still need DPS buffs to the deadeye overall. I did a quick test to compare a DPS Deadeye with a buff one (except they both have scholar runes). With no food and qT's standards, the Deadeye DPS build averages around 25k, while the support build (with scholars) averages around 18k. Take away 8% for the scholar ferocity and full bonus, and you'll get 16.5k DPS. Also for reference, I compared this to a power herald, and I averaged 21k DPS with it.

 

Ill agree with this. But consider that all that might generation from other professions requires players to build and group for it, as well as exploit the benefits of things like combo fields, in order to maintain such high stacks of might throughout the fight. The Deadeye only has to hit 3 buttons and anyone around the target or the deadeye will get 16 might for 12s minimum. And in order for the deadeye to maintain it, simply killing the marked target, using Mercy and/or using Swindler's Equalibrium as an s/x Deadeye will do. If the other profession communities would let it, the Deadeye could walk into the might meta and thrive. But there are not enough thieves who really know how to use the Deadeye, let alone support Deadeye, for the rest of the community to recognize this.

 

But your ideas would definitely seat them as support king, especially if their build uses Wayfarer/Harrier which is 52% boon duration.