I hate what DPS meters have done to PVE endgame...

[sigur.9453]

> @Byakhee.8652 said:

> There is one way that this kind of content would mean its not all DPS meters:

>

> If a cost was brought in to repair armour in these locations. This means if you are going DPS / Wipe / Restart run there is another cost to it.

> The cost doesn't have to be coins, there are multiple resources in the game, who knows maybe this place wants bloodstone bricks per use of the armour repair...

 

as mentioned above, more surviability doesn´t mean less wipe.

More DPS = Less mechanics = less possibilities to make mistakes.

 

[sigur.9453]

yeah damn fact´s, thumbs down them quickly

[Maunzi.3764]

I use Arcdps myself. I never talk about it to others, and mostly use it to monitor my own performance. What this often lets me spot is people that are terrible. These people are usually the most toxic, and usually the ones calling others out for "bad dps". It's rarely ever those they bash.

 

The very people doing the callout are usually doing less than a magi druid - call out behavior is not indicative of skill, but simply of toxicity. They usually lie about their numbers to shift blame.

 

And even if their numbers are correct, they often pull this in places where it is stupid. Like in casual pugs that are marked as such. They see that it's a casual T1 run, still expect speedrun tactics and top DPS, start flaming everyone (including the necro that outdpsed them...), and leave. It's bizarre.

 

Or take this one: Social Awkwardness fractal. Terrible necro keeps damaging people, then screams why people get downed and doing "0 dps", and that those ressing the downed people shouldn't bother to "res the 0 dps casuals". This necro did not realize that he was the cause of the problem. Things died significantly faster once he left and the group continued without a replacement.

 

 

DPS meters are fine, but those screaming about the numbers to bash others in pugs are usually extremely toxic. THAT behavior is the issue. Not people "not running meta builds" or "DPS meters".

[Abakk.9176]

> @sigur.9453 said:

> > @Abakk.9176 said:

>

> > I think i made myself clear. It's not rocket science.

> >

> > <-- Personal Olympics are that way, behind the closed off area where they can't harm other people. (cheating addons not allowed, not even in there)

> >

> > Normal gameplay and people enjoying eachothers company in their favorite Fantasy setting go that way -->

> > Trying to get to me on a personal level is really not cool btw.. :-1: >

>

>

> thats basicly whats LFG does, "devide" ppl into there playstyles.

>

> we get your point already, you hate dps meters.

> don´t use them, only play with ppl which are likeminded.

>

> i think that would do it

>

 

Appearantly 'my point' is not at all clear yet.

 

The discussion is about DPS-meters in endgame and, consequently, wether or not they should be allowed in this game.

 

My argument is that any such addon has no place in an MMORPG that wants to call itself that.

 

DPS-meter addons support compatitive behavior in the most toxic way possible and therefore contradics the friendly coöperative nature/origin of the genre and this game in particular.

 

It's about Yes or No... and every time someone says Yes, i say No (with some reasoning behind it) because that is how discussion works.

[Ana.2415]

I just don't like that other people can see my DPS when I don't want show it, even if I do a "decent" or a "good" dps already. They are not even accurate.

People is more worried about making the max dps, than about what is happening in the fight.

Sometimes I feel like if I were in a dps race, I hate that. The DPSmeters should show only the DPS of the people who have the same dpsmeter activated.

[Koyomi.1378]

> The only thing i am implying is that DPS-meter addons have no place in an MMORPG.

>

> Please stay on-topic.

>

DPS meters let others improve and try out new methods to beat content in ways we couldn't before, maybe when you do stuff like 100cm with your open world build we would give you more credibility, so far you entire argument is "i'm a casual and i got into a game that was advertised as casual, remove things that show how bad i am for being a casual because i don't want to be seen as such"

 

[sigur.9453]

> @Abakk.9176 said:

> > @sigur.9453 said:

> > > @Abakk.9176 said:

> >

> > > I think i made myself clear. It's not rocket science.

> > >

> > > <-- Personal Olympics are that way, behind the closed off area where they can't harm other people. (cheating addons not allowed, not even in there)

> > >

> > > Normal gameplay and people enjoying eachothers company in their favorite Fantasy setting go that way -->

> > > Trying to get to me on a personal level is really not cool btw.. :-1: >

> >

> >

> > thats basicly whats LFG does, "devide" ppl into there playstyles.

> >

> > we get your point already, you hate dps meters.

> > don´t use them, only play with ppl which are likeminded.

> >

> > i think that would do it

> >

>

> Appearantly 'my point' is not at all clear yet.

>

> The discussion is about DPS-meters in endgame and, consequently, wether or not they should be allowed in this game.

>

> My argument is that any such addon has no place in an MMORPG that wants to call itself that.

>

 

Your argument ist your OPINION.

 

 

> DPS-meter addons support compatitive behavior in the most toxic way possible and therefore contradics the friendly coöperative nature/origin of the genre and this game in particular.

>

I disagree, because it allows us to work TOGETHER as a group/community and make challenging content less challenging.

 

> It's about Yes or No... and every time someone says Yes, i say No (with some reasoning behind it) because that is how discussion works.

 

No you simply say, dps meters are bad, because i feel they are bad.

You ignore solutions,advices and input from "the other side" and even demand that everyone should play YOUR game like you want it to be played.

 

Thats just selfish and rude.

 

I for myself can live with people who want to play the game in another way then i do, im am NOT forced to play with them.

 

Here are many individuals wir individual expactaions & experiences. Some will be closer to your personal beliefs, some won´t.

You simply have to accept that, wheter you like it or not. We as a community have to accept that together.

 

There will be always rude people, whatever tools are available or not, some will harras you even because your character looks ugly, that won´t be a reason to turn of other charakter models, won´t it?

 

So just becasue you don´t like a thing, don´t take it from others, without raids (and all the dps drama that came with it) many people i know, myself included won´t be playing this game anymore. Yet our money is also used on areas of the game i won´t even touch and you possibly profit from it. Who cares, thats what you get.

Carry on.

 

Edit: typos

[Dante.1763]

> @sigur.9453 said:

> > @Dante.1763 said:

>

> > When it comes to raids, i still feel like they are pretty inaccessible. I asked for help on the forums and nobody showed up. Spending 3 hours having a LFG message up sucked hard too. I can see why people have issues with being locked out of raids, very few people are willing to take someone new into them, and i really do have to agree that it shouldnt be that way in this game.

>

> You need to look active for groups, commies rarly look in the "player looking for grp" section.

> Ask in Mapchat (aerodrome) for Trainingsgroups, there are a bunch of guilds out there.

>

> But DONT try to join a exp killrun grp with no knowlege over the boss you wan´t to do.

 

I dont know why you got so many thumbs down for that comment, but ill keep that in mind for when i get home today and am able to play.

 

I wouldnt join an Experienced group anyways, i have one class to play thats fully kitted out, and experienced groups from the people ive talked to love flexibility.

[Abakk.9176]

> @Koyomi.1378 said:

> > The only thing i am implying is that DPS-meter addons have no place in an MMORPG.

> >

> > Please stay on-topic.

> >

> DPS meters let others improve and try out new methods to beat content in ways we couldn't before, maybe when you do stuff like 100cm with your open world build we would give you more credibility, so far you entire argument is "i'm a casual and i got into a game that was advertised as casual, remove things that show how bad i am for being a casual because i don't want to be seen as such"

>

 

Again with the personal attacks. o.O

 

I don't need your kind of 'credibility' to argue that any game that allows 3rd party tinkering to circumvent the original design is basically saying 'use this because we did it wrong'.

 

About 12 years ago i started playing an MMORPG. I've always played it from the angle of cooperation and comradery. During those 12 years ive seen the community go from bad to worse with one of the main culprits beeing this type of addons.

 

So again: DPS-meter addons in an MMORPG = NO!

[Koyomi.1378]

>So again: DPS-meter addons in an MMORPG = NO!

Do you play mmo's at such a low level? Most mmo's have extensive third party add on's

[sigur.9453]

> @Dante.1763 said:

> > @sigur.9453 said:

> > > @Dante.1763 said:

> >

> > > When it comes to raids, i still feel like they are pretty inaccessible. I asked for help on the forums and nobody showed up. Spending 3 hours having a LFG message up sucked hard too. I can see why people have issues with being locked out of raids, very few people are willing to take someone new into them, and i really do have to agree that it shouldnt be that way in this game.

> >

> > You need to look active for groups, commies rarly look in the "player looking for grp" section.

> > Ask in Mapchat (aerodrome) for Trainingsgroups, there are a bunch of guilds out there.

> >

> > But DONT try to join a exp killrun grp with no knowlege over the boss you wan´t to do.

>

> I dont know why you got so many thumbs down for that comment, but ill keep that in mind for when i get home today and am able to play.

>

> I wouldnt join an Experienced group anyways, i have one class to play thats fully kitted out, and experienced groups from the people ive talked to love flexibility.

 

Ask for RTI guild (raid training initiative)

Flexibility is nice, but i guess if you manage your class/role well everyone would be happy to have you. After you star getting your weekly kills, you will get a lot of gear for your other chars, so don´t get stressed to gear out as many charakters as possibly.

[Abakk.9176]

> @Koyomi.1378 said:

> >So again: DPS-meter addons in an MMORPG = NO!

> Do you play mmo's at such a low level? Most mmo's have extensive third party add on's

 

Yes addons everywhere and its all fine with me. Lord knows ive used many of them over the years in MMO's.

 

But i never used/misused an addon to force people to adhere to my idea of dps and kick them if they don't. That kind of addons have no place in an MMORPG.

 

> Do you play mmo's at such a low level?

 

What is that supposed to mean?

[Feanor.2358]

> @Abakk.9176 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > @Abakk.9176 said:

> > > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > > @Abakk.9176 said:

> > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > > > Nice exaggeration.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, an exaggeration. That is exactly what it is meant to be. To mirror the exaggerated way some people turn their computergame into their personal Olympics and cut down everyone that don't live up to their exaggerated standards and expectations.

> > > > >

> > > > > People that want to play that way are welcome to it for all i care, but not in a way that they walk all over other people in the process.

> > > >

> > > > Why? Are you somehow entitled to playing with everyone in the game? And why do you even care if someone accepts your own way of play or not? Are you seeking approval or something? Let me turn your own argument against you - it's just a videogame. Someone rejected you, big deal. Get over it and move on.

> > >

> > > I think i made myself clear. It's not rocket science.

> > >

> > > <-- Personal Olympics are that way, behind the closed off area where they can't harm other people. (cheating addons not allowed, not even in there)

> > >

> > > Normal gameplay and people enjoying eachothers company in their favorite Fantasy setting go that way -->

> > >

> > > Trying to get to me on a personal level is really not cool btw.. :-1:

> >

> > But implying you're normal, and whoever doesn't agree with you isn't, is somehow cool? All right...

>

> The only thing i am implying is that DPS-meter addons have no place in an MMORPG.

>

> Please stay on-topic.

>

 

Nope, that's by far not the only thing you're implying.

As for the topic, this is merely your opinion. You're entitled to having one, but it doesn't make it true. Actually two simple facts prove you wrong:

1. There are people interested enough to devote considerable time and effort into developing such tools.

2. The developers of the game considered these tools and said they are fine.

 

So, there. There's demand, there's a place. Topic closed?

[Syktek.7912]

>DPS meters do not belong in MMORPGs.

 

So are you going to go holy crusade on pretty much every other MMO with raid content and tell them they're bad people for using DPS meters?

[Abakk.9176]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> > @Abakk.9176 said:

> > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > @Abakk.9176 said:

> > > > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > > > @Abakk.9176 said:

> > > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > > > > Nice exaggeration.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes, an exaggeration. That is exactly what it is meant to be. To mirror the exaggerated way some people turn their computergame into their personal Olympics and cut down everyone that don't live up to their exaggerated standards and expectations.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > People that want to play that way are welcome to it for all i care, but not in a way that they walk all over other people in the process.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why? Are you somehow entitled to playing with everyone in the game? And why do you even care if someone accepts your own way of play or not? Are you seeking approval or something? Let me turn your own argument against you - it's just a videogame. Someone rejected you, big deal. Get over it and move on.

> > > >

> > > > I think i made myself clear. It's not rocket science.

> > > >

> > > > <-- Personal Olympics are that way, behind the closed off area where they can't harm other people. (cheating addons not allowed, not even in there)

> > > >

> > > > Normal gameplay and people enjoying eachothers company in their favorite Fantasy setting go that way -->

> > > >

> > > > Trying to get to me on a personal level is really not cool btw.. :-1:

> > >

> > > But implying you're normal, and whoever doesn't agree with you isn't, is somehow cool? All right...

> >

> > The only thing i am implying is that DPS-meter addons have no place in an MMORPG.

> >

> > Please stay on-topic.

> >

>

> Nope, that's by far not the only thing you're implying.

> As for the topic, this is merely your opinion. You're entitled to having one, but it doesn't make it true. Actually two simple facts prove you wrong:

> 1. There are people interested enough to devote considerable time and effort into developing such tools.

> 2. The developers of the game considered these tools and said they are fine.

>

> So, there. There's demand, there's a place. Topic closed?

 

I think i know best what i intend to imply. But by all means, read into it whatever suits your fancy. Have fun ! :)

 

> 1. There are people interested enough to devote considerable time and effort into developing such tools.

 

There are always people that will do that. Hats off to them. Your point?

 

> 2. The developers of the game considered these tools and said they are fine.

 

Indeed, and i think they are wrong. Your point?

 

> As for the topic, this is merely your opinion.

 

Yes, it is indeed. Your point?

[Abakk.9176]

> @Syktek.7912 said:

> >DPS meters do not belong in MMORPGs.

>

> So are you going to go holy crusade on pretty much every other MMO with raid content and tell them they're bad people for using DPS meters?

 

Why would i do that?

[Feanor.2358]

> @Abakk.9176 said:

> Yes, it is indeed. Your point?

 

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> two simple facts prove you wrong

 

Because you apparently missed it.

[Syktek.7912]

> @Panda.1967 said:

 

> > @Syktek.7912 said:

> > > @Rennie.6750 said:

> > > > @Helbjorne.9368 said:

> > > > Donkeys will be donkeys regardless of whether or not there's a DPS meter, but I can definitely see both sides of the argument. Personally I think it allows us to hold other people accountable if they're just looking to get carried in PUGs, but there's a good and a bad way to address that.

> > >

> > > DPS meters also promote selfish and greedy behaviour in runs. People are so obsessed about their numbers that they completely forgo any kind of support and will instead slot the last bit of dps-

> >

> > Stopped reading right there. DPS aren't required to slot support nor will they ever be. In fact, no one is required to slot support past your healers. They're there for a reason. Most builds bring ample CC that are built into them. I didn't slot extra 'support' before DPS meters were allowed and I don't now. No successful raid guild does it, none of the pugs I joined did it. Quit making crap up.

> >

>

> Perhaps you should have kept reading. At no point did he say anyone was required to slot support skills past your healers. Everything he said is true though. Sure you CAN slot nothing but DPS, but quite honestly, it is **NOT** optimal. So many people are so obsessed with getting that last extra 1% DPS on their build that they blantantly refuse to even consider taking a support or defensive ability to improve their survival. Believe it or not, that 1% extra DPS is **NOT** equal to let alone greater than the extra 300% survivability that just 1 support skill can give you. Losing out on 1% DPS in favor of better survivability will ALWAYS result in higher average DPS and a higher success rate on runs, that is an absolute fact.

 

DPS slotting anything other than DPS and the CC that their build uses is suboptimal. Lol.

[Loosifah.4738]

Yes because an MMO that's main selling point is "Play how you want" is all about being optimal.

[Syktek.7912]

> @Loosifah.4738 said:

> Yes because an MMO that's main selling point is "Play how you want" is all about being optimal.

 

Play how you want. I ain't judging. Optimal is optimal. You don't -have- to do it. And I don't -have- to let you into T4 fractals or raid groups because you're a liability. I don't care what you use in oPvE and story instances. I don't care what you bring into dungeons and low level fractals. Stats don't matter there. In high level content stats matter as much as player skill.

[Fermi.2409]

> @Loosifah.4738 said:

> Yes because an MMO that's main selling point is "Play how you want" is all about being optimal.

 

Playing optimally is how some people want to play

[Loosifah.4738]

Because it's an absolute **MUST** to squeeze that extra 1% dps into your build so you can be the absolute best using the same cookie cutter build everyone else is.

[Feanor.2358]

> @Loosifah.4738 said:

> Yes because an MMO that's main selling point is "Play how you want" is all about being optimal.

 

Optimality is a matter of math. Your preferences do not change it. Whether you personally want to play optimally or not is another story, but keep in mind this is a multiplayer game. Hence the optimal setup isn't just one build, it's the whole party/squad. If you'll be advocating the "play your way" approach, it is only normal to accept players who want to play optimally. That's just their way. Trying to slap your suboptimal build onto them is not any different than them wanting you to run the optimal one. Both sides want their way. The only sensible thing is for one side to simply say "good bye" and leave, in particular it makes most sense to be the minority. So I don't get what all the fuss is about.

[Fermi.2409]

> @Loosifah.4738 said:

> Because it's an absolute **MUST** to squeeze that extra 1% dps into your build so you can be the absolute best using the same cookie cutter build everyone else is.

 

So you're looking down on people for playing how they want and attempting to improve their own gameplay?

[Loosifah.4738]

I'm looking down on the view that if you don't bring the EXACT build that everyone wants you to have you get booted from the party for content due to the inane standards the DPS meter tends to push. If you throw in a support skill for survival rather than a DPS skill to go pure glass cannon the build is somehow not acceptable.