WvW lacks Diversity, and balance. Where do we send Necro DPS players?

[Meetshield.1756]

So prior to POF, the WvW community consisted of several casts or types of players.

 

Guardians - Boon bots, and Commanders, usually in the front of the pack, telling everyone else where to go, and how to play.

Rev's - Boon Duration and Fury bots, with situational power spike dmg, and that golden elixer of life Resistance.

Necro - Damage and Boon Rip

Ele's - Your Basic Healer class with a few boons, supporting everyone.

Chrono - Your Swiss Army Knife, to fill in all the gaps.

 

(Thieves, Warriors, Rangers, and Engi) - Tolerated out of kindness but only in very small numbers.

 

Typical Parties were organized like this -

Guard, Guard, Rev, Tempest, Reaper.

(With a Chrono or two subbing for a guard to provide Veil / Timewarp / Portal / Distort)

 

## Elementalist Changes

>! There are some Ele's that remembered the days before Tempest when they could do damage, but we had crushed most of that out of them, and they were happy just keeping everyone alive. The newer ele's that didn't know time before Tempest, were happy playing a healer / support role. Once POF came out, excitement about Sword Frontline weaver turned to disappointment, and the Tempest that used to rotate through atunements is now relegated to camping water, due to the increase in DPS. Eventually it was learned that Weaver has 47% dmg buffs and its DPS is actually the highest of any class in WvW. So now we have ill-suited support players trying to learn to DPS, and some old School ele's thankful to return to the glory days.

>!

## Guardian Changes

>! Firebrand was the hardest to figure out. Guards are heavily relied upon for stability, but have generally been considered a minor DPS class. They have good CC capability as well. The mantras were hoped to be able to reduce the number of guardian's per party so that we could slot in the new Spellbreaker into a group. However mantras require a Guardian who is always on tag or in front to turn around and aim at his backline in order to provide his boons. So most of them are stuck on shouts, and utilizing their new healing book to sustain the party. Not only was this a complex play style change that required intense coordination between two guardians, but it removed their ability to do damage. They have an amazing DPS Tome, that they can't really get into without some other class being able to pickup the sustain between books.

>!

## Revenant Changes

>! Very little changed. Renegade is a Minion spec designed for PVE, that adds Alacrity to comp. It can do close to power Rev damage if given a Rev to support it. We will see how long they are happy playing the same elite spec they have been playing for 2 years now. The Condi Rev player I have no idea what he is doing now, we didn't have them in our guild, but I know many players did play front line condition rev. I believe they too have switched to the only viable Rev Spec, the one that is doing 30% more damage than any other class except for Weaver in the current Meta.

>!

## Chrono Changes

>! Nothing Changed. Mirage is PVP / Roaming spec. Hard to find Chronos, and the ones you do find you usually have to grow up internally. They don't talk much generally cuz they are calculating math on alternate planes of existence.

 

## Necro Changes

At first when POF came out it was a boon to Necro DPS. Getting used to not having a shroud while the Ele's were still thinking they could leave Water atunement was a challenge, but the payoff in damage was respectable. We found pushing Scourge towards power netted even higher dps than power rev, and were excitedly waiting on the rest of the Comp to figure out their roles so we could dominate the world. And then the intentionally overlooked bug was fixed to reduce Scourge damage. We spent some time trying to eek out damage from Scourge and to make it competitive for its slot in comp. As the Meta progressed, guardians got better at condition clear, and Scourge DPS tanked even more. We needed a spot in comp for the new warrior, who was out boon ripping scourge, and scourge DPS was terrible. It was decided to remove Scourge from comp at my guild. I investigated other options and found Blood Magic healer scourge, which does about the same damage as full dps scourge, but provides 3 times more healing than DPS, outpacing guarding and tempest for healing based on healing meter. So after spending a week convincing everyone it was viable, and getting called everything you can imagine, it has proven to be the right way to go with Scourge. I then realized none of my existing DPS players would want to play a support healing class. And then i realized I didn't really want to play a support healing class, and probably no necro in the history of the game ever signed up to be a healer.

 

So we have 5 slots in a party. Two of them are Guardian, and 1 is a Healer Scourge or Healer Tempest. Some groups run without Rev's but most teams realize the high dmg potential from Rev and the benefit of resistance. The Last slot is Spellbreaker or Weaver, depending on how many Bubbles you want vs how many meteor showers you want. I realize that some groups do things different and I'm not saying our way is the only way by any means.

 

What EVERYONE in WvW needs is a way for Guardian to provide group stability by himself, with the stability Mantra, and not require another guardian in party, this will open up another slot in the group for a 2nd rev, dps scourge, reaper, weaver, holosmith etc. It will give us the 5 core wvw classes represented a single time, and variations to double up on some.

 

I assume Anet will fix the problem with Guardian so we will eventually get to 1 guardian per party, so I ask this question. What classes should we send our DPS players that made up about 30% of WvW players too? If you ask my commander he will tell you they can all just play Rev. Cuz why not have 20 of the top DPS class in WvW. This hurts the game and hurts diversity. Maybe Scourge needs a DPS boost, but Maybe Rev hammer 2, needs a bit of a Nerf...

 

Holosmith has personal survival issues, and mele dps issues just like Reaper.

Weaver is a cloth class with base 10k health, so it needs a much larger than 120 vitality boost when wielding sword, and a redesign of its heal mechanic if it is going to be a viable healer. I understand that there is a dodge roll barrier trait and that combining it with Scourge Barrier could allow weaver to maintain max barrier for a very long time, but taking that trait over the 14% of power converted to Ferocity is insanity for a DPS class. It should be 14% of Toughness is converted to ferocity, if you want to force Ele's to tank up so they can go frontline sword.

Warrior DPS is likely never going to be high enough to be a pure DPS class in WvW, due to its extremely high vitality / mobility / invulnerabilities. It was only added to comp for Boon rip, and it is on the Nerf train until it stops winning every match in PvP.

 

I suppose the first step is to quickly increase the size of Mantras for Guardians so we can at least test some of these other classes without feeling we are short on the important classes we already have. The Shout is 600 radius. Make the Mantra 600 radius if you want the guards to consider going without their guard buddy and being the only source of Stability for the party. if you dont' want to make ALL mantras that size then atleast make the Elite Mantra this size and increase its stacks per use, cuz 1 stack is simply not enough.

 

Then I strongly suggest you look at Holosmith performance in WvW, and give it a much stronger ranged dmg skill. If you like where the Elite is lower its cool down to 20 seconds in WvW, increase the toughness of Holosmith inside the forge by reducing incoming damage by 50%, even these changes would make it an edge pick, as likely it wouldn't compete with Rev for DPS.

 

And Finally... Never make a class that has no cooldowns and its DPS is based on a renewable Resource again. I mean everyone would think you insane if you gave Scourge F5 with 4 second cooldown, having Life force be its limiting factor. Yet this is what you have created with Revenant. Hammer 2 may not be that great on the DPS golem, but in WvW it rules the world. Scourges, and Warriors have only made it stronger because they keep everyone from pushing in, so groups of rev's can spam Hammer 2/3 combos to down groups of your players. increase the cooldown on rev hammer 2, and get rid of the 20% free crit from 100% uptime fury. Make Rev's have to build their Crit % just like everyone else, and give us a reason to push in and fight, so all these Mele oriented classes have a viable role in WvW.

 

[ilmau.9781]

so much truth in your post. I will take care to bump it for quite some time. Anet have to read it no matter what.

[Aetatis.5418]

scourge is still one of the best dmg specs for wvw atm.

you have to play it good tho.

when i play my random-gear-scourge and i time sadistic searing with my shades and try to out-smart the enemies movement with my squad... i end up in the top 3 dps. only very dedicated glass canon weaver and also very dedicated glass canon heralds "can" put out more dmg in a fight.

the support from scourge is also a lot better than anybody thinks. with the recent change to barrier (decreasing later) i can also time desert shroud, f3 barrier and the barrier from my heal to stack up in critical moments (while pushing^^) and negate a HUGE amount of damage (condi AND power, protection only offers power-redution).

the corrupt and the cleanse is also very good - the cleanse is not as good as firebrand, sure. but the more cleanse you have in your entire group, the easier you can push. its like a cascade. a second /thirdfirberand would not add the same amount of group-synergy (support + dmg + utility like constant corrupts + range + unique abilities) as a scourge.

 

about the diversity. i am not sure.

like yes firebrand is a core guard^10. firebrand has all the utility-skills available to a core guard in its tomes + better utilities for the utility-slots on top of that. BUT it offers one more slot in the group for something else because there is no desperate need for two guards anymore. in fact a good raid-composition nowadays consists mainly of 6 (elite)specializations. before PoF it was 5 (elite)specializations... the total number of available specializations however increased by 9

 

same for roaming. BiS is still a handfull of (elite)specializations.

 

would love to have real/competitive alternatives for each "class". but i guess that is too much of an act to balance.

its 18 elite specs, 9 core. each should be able to play wvw, pvp and pve and with different roles in each of the specilizations? girl, that adds up. i'd say its impossible with the current traitsystem - you would have to make sure everyone gets either the same dmg multiplier/mechanics OR measure unique abilities so that the (idk) 3rd dodge of a daredevil is worth the same as the corrupt on scourge. how can you measure that? you can't!

 

so speaking realisticly, the actual amount of classes in wvw is higher with PoF.

its just sad that some (mainly the old) specs are not competitive in any gamemode anymore. (except for open world and very specilization-loving-try-hards that are either good as hell or dont care about maximum efficiency and play their loved specilization anyway)

 

 

 

 

[ilmau.9781]

it is indeed hard if anet destroy a spec for no reason and buff another one to the point it is OP... so if i would agree with the buff on scourge i totally disagree with the insane nerf on reaper at the same time. This is dumb. This is not even giving ppl options to choose from, this is a go buy the expansion or die using the old specs.

 

Very professional attitude there.

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @ilmau.9781 said:

> it is indeed hard if anet destroy a spec for no reason and buff another one to the point it is OP... so if i would agree with the buff on scourge i totally disagree with the insane nerf on reaper at the same time. This is kitten. This is not even giving ppl options to choose from, this is a go buy the expansion or die using the old specs.

>

> Very professional attitude there.

 

Devs are sooo abd at balancing necros that even the NEW shiny Scourge is not realy good anymore lol

[Meetshield.1756]

Run ARC DPS, pull up your stats and you will see that against good organized teams you get resisted 60-75% and cleared 60-75%. Thus building duration into your build is kind of pointless, and most of your condi damage comes from ticks on downed players that are not getting condition clears. Anet already knows this.

 

They added so much condi clear in Firebrand to counter how much burn damage it does. I assume they misunderstood how important it is for guardian to be in front, and assumed we would have warriors, sword weavers, and holosmiths out front. Thats just now how WvW works though because you have to dodge damage, and create an AOE cap to mitigate spike damage. We are all following the Tag, and the Tag is Guardian, because he decides when we need stab so we can push through... He can't do that from the back, and he can't do it on Warrior.

 

Diversity is all but non-existent, but the core issue is that 2 of the 5 members of a party are guardian, and one of them is Rev, so that leaves 1 flex healer spot, and 1 flex util / dps slot. The viable options for those flex spots are Druid / Tempest / Scourge for the heal slot, and Warrior / Chrono / Staff Weaver for the util / DPS slot.

 

They need to fix Mantras to open up another slot and they need to address the survival of the other Mele classes they have added to the game. Otherwise very few classes will compete for viability with Rev / Warrior / Scourge / Guard. (Notice 3 of those classes are Heavy Armor)

 

[Yuyuske.7182]

> @Meetshield.1756 said:

> And then i realized I didn't really want to play a support healing class, and probably no necro in the history of the game ever signed up to be a healer.

>

 

I did. What's your necro healing setup? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Svarty.8019]

> @ilmau.9781 said:

> it is indeed hard if anet destroy a spec for no reason and buff another one to the point it is OP... so if i would agree with the buff on scourge i totally disagree with the insane nerf on reaper at the same time. This is kitten. This is not even giving ppl options to choose from, this is a go buy the expansion or die using the old specs.

>

> Very professional attitude there.

 

I couldn't agree with this more. It's a disgrace that Arenanet should be ashamed of and embarrassed about, but I bet they're all smiles and jokes on their Livestream.

[Meetshield.1756]

> @Yuyuske.7182 said:

> > @Meetshield.1756 said:

> > And then i realized I didn't really want to play a support healing class, and probably no necro in the history of the game ever signed up to be a healer.

> >

>

> I did. What's your necro healing setup? I'm genuinely curious.

>

 

Something like this was my initial build, but now that we have several in comp I don't have to heal the entire squad, and I have gone towards a Cele build with Monk runes...

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNAW7PW6GspHwGLAo3THqJVqPwI4QB-jlxZAB4o+jI6Gge/BUUCi5TAAAlfkCwvZWA-w