Some thoughts on Power Reaper in raid

[Warscythes.9307]

I would like to preface this post that the changes for Power Reaper has been absolutely great in PvE. I would also like to say right now that everything I mention in this post will be about PvE only, raiding to be specific because anything works in open world pve.

 

I never believed just buffing numbers is the fix because number is easy. You can set gravedigger to hitting 35k on a one second cast time with one second cd and call it a day, but of course that is not how it should work. There were two major mechanic/design problems with power reaper in general and the last patch has improved the situation by a huge amount.

 

1) Entering Reaper Shroud is a damage loss

This patch rectified the problem somewhat, it is worth using Reaper Shroud skills above 50% now. You go in there after using wells, GS2, GS4, RS4, RS1 a bit and pop back out to gravedigger again. Pop back in shroud when you feel there is about 5~ second on RS4, auto a bit and spiral, pop out and use skills when they are up, auto when they are not. I know there is some rotation there where you use axe 5 and 2 then shroud but the gain is not worth the hassle in raids. The main point is that my profession mechanic is actually part of my damage rotation now instead of a pure defensive/cc tool and that is absolutely the correct way to balance the class.

 

2) The rotation under 50% is basically just gravedigger

and wells + nightfall, but you will be using pretty much just gravedigger under 50%. Shroud skills are currently still not worth using under 50% unless you miss a gravedigger. I think RS4 might be a damage increase but even if it is, it is very very marginal that gravedigger spam is just easier. This should be the priority for the next balance patch concerning Power Reaper in PvE. I don't mind a simple rotation, but there has to be something better than pressing just 1 button. Hopefully Shroud can be incorporated somehow too, executioner scythe for example is currently still not really a noticeable damage increase or if at all even under 25%.

 

That aside, I would like to talk about why Power Reaper in raids.

 

Currently Reaper is on the lower range of dps in terms of raiding. I see range of 27-29(30k?) dps around. With the gotl nerf, a lot of classes(mirage exception) should have dropped to average 31k-33k range(might be a bit higher?), so your damage is low but not low enough to be an autokick where the difference used to be 10k. Reaper currently has 4 advantages:

 

1) Golem dps translate decently well to actual dps.

Simply put most of the skills can be cast while moving meaning that you do not lose much damage on moving targets, VG, sloth etc etc. I was able to top dps in some fights with movement but got vastly out dps'd on fights with stationary targets. Take it as you will.

 

2) Capping vul very well

This is actually a bit surprising to me but for some reason in my past two days of raiding, capping vul on a moving target has become an actual problem. Stationary targets are fine but once a target starts moving, the vul stacks drops pretty quick. I actually had to try to cap vul with my skills to ensure damage. It looks like tempests used to be the one that stacked a lot of vul but with them gone, it is becoming bit of a problem. Of course is hard to tell if this is actually an issue but could potentially be a thing.

 

3) You have good CC

GS5, Horn 4, RS3, RS5, Golem charge etc etc. The biggest issue with a lot of the current meta dps is that their cc is pretty damn poor. Renegades, weavers, firebrands, soulbeasts all have pretty poor cc and no moa is not enough for every cc break bar. This is something Reaper is pretty good at.

 

4) You are tanky

Shroud is 50% damage reduction, failed vg green? Pop shroud and start rezzing. Gros start slamming and your pug chrono can't distort? Stand in the goop, Shroud, RS4 and auto until shroud runs out etc etc. Yes survivability is not a huge issue in raid because healers and chronos exist, but there is a huge difference between having 18k hp compared to 11k hp even in raids.

 

Of course all these traits are hinged on the fact that you do need to do good dps because you are ultimately a dps. The life force duration nerf is noticeable but not really a problem because you should not be camping shroud at all. All in all I believe that damage is still a tiny bit off, the current direction of balance for Power Reaper in PvE is the way to do so. Now if the rotation issue under 50% can be fixed somehow then everything will be great.

 

tl;dr: Patch is good for PvE Power Reaper because the balance direction is right.

[Akame.1073]

sadly not a chance , to low dps & no team support so yea..... great patch

[Sublimatio.6981]

im not sure soul spiral is worth using over rs auto. can someone post the power coefficients for each RS skill?

 

also remember to cast rs5 and rs3 for chill to get the 10% modifier

[Warscythes.9307]

> @Akame.1073 said:

> sadly not a chance , to low dps & no team support so yea..... great patch

 

You missed my point.

 

Number balancing is really simple, you can do what that redditor said to buff all Reaper damage by 50% and call it a day and that would be an absolutely terrible idea, because what would end happening is that you would still completely ignore Reaper Shroud and camp GS. Great you are viable, but your play style is entirely ignoring your profession mechanic.

 

Right now they buffed Shroud to the point that you actually want to use it for damage and that is absolutely the correct way of doing it. I was afraid they would just do some random buffs and call it a day, example being the lich form "buff", but what they did is the right thing to do.

 

Also CC and vul capping is team support.

[Warscythes.9307]

> @Sublimatio.6981 said:

> im not sure soul spiral is worth using over rs auto. can someone post the power coefficients for each RS skill?

>

> also remember to cast rs5 and rs3 for chill to get the 10% modifier

 

Generally you save rs5 and rs3 for the cc in raids, the gs auto chain is usually enough in my experience.

 

As for Soul Spiral damage, it is pretty close to rs auto. It comes pretty much equal if you take dhuumfire, the biggest difference between the two is range so is easier to land it. For example in VG where you want to dodge blues, you can clip him from a slighter longer range.

 

But yes the damage is similar if you take dhuumfire.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

> @Warscythes.9307 said:

> > @Sublimatio.6981 said:

> > im not sure soul spiral is worth using over rs auto. can someone post the power coefficients for each RS skill?

> >

> > also remember to cast rs5 and rs3 for chill to get the 10% modifier

>

> Generally you save rs5 and rs3 for the cc in raids, the gs auto chain is usually enough in my experience.

>

> As for Soul Spiral damage, it is pretty close to rs auto. It comes pretty much equal if you take dhuumfire, the biggest difference between the two is range so is easier to land it. For example in VG where you want to dodge blues, you can clip him from a slighter longer range.

>

> But yes the damage is similar if you take dhuumfire.

 

What if you take Duumfire but switch gear to Grievers?

[Aetatis.5418]

> @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

> > @Warscythes.9307 said:

> > > @Sublimatio.6981 said:

> > > im not sure soul spiral is worth using over rs auto. can someone post the power coefficients for each RS skill?

> > >

> > > also remember to cast rs5 and rs3 for chill to get the 10% modifier

> >

> > Generally you save rs5 and rs3 for the cc in raids, the gs auto chain is usually enough in my experience.

> >

> > As for Soul Spiral damage, it is pretty close to rs auto. It comes pretty much equal if you take dhuumfire, the biggest difference between the two is range so is easier to land it. For example in VG where you want to dodge blues, you can clip him from a slighter longer range.

> >

> > But yes the damage is similar if you take dhuumfire.

>

> What if you take Duumfire but switch gear to Grievers?

 

on paper, that doesnt work.

okay very simple: your dmg is a pie (chart) with 100 pieces. you take away (more than) 25 of your total pieces (crit dmg loss of 22% (214 -> 192), 160 power lost, 20-ish more power lost due to less precision paired with sharpening stones).

and you gain 15 pie pieces with all conditions possible (deathly chill, dhuumfire, sould spiral) on a power reaper with grieving stats.

 

equals 90 pieces - but you could have 100 with berserkers

 

however i am not a math-genius and i am lazy too. making a spreadsheet and looking for every mistake possible is just way too tedious.

i'd be glad to be proven wrong or corrected in any way (the good and the bad)

[Akame.1073]

didnt miss your point , but they have no clue what to do or how to aproach with necro & this class is cursed with own skills & too much aoe + the traits are a mess & i get that someone likes minions , but they are a dead trait & will be ever with the current mechanic (even d2 had a better minion managment , even more with runes & that is an ancient game)

[Aetatis.5418]

> @Akame.1073 said:

> didnt miss your point , but they have no clue what to do or how to aproach with necro & this class is cursed with own skills & too much aoe + the traits are a mess & i get that someone likes minions , but they are a dead trait & will be ever with the current mechanic (even d2 had a better minion managment , even more with runes & that is an ancient game)

 

minions are a dmg-gain (on a single traget) compared to other utilities from a necro (dps of shadow fiend is better than well of corruption, and thats the second best dps utility - if we forget about minions; dps of blood fiend... is better than the shout, better than the traited well, better than traited signet; dps of plague lands is equal to the flesh golem... full viper with 100% duration plague lands wins, otherwise not)

dunno if that states, that necros utilities are bad, or minions are strong.

the minion traits however are really useless, because you have to give up a traitline that increases dmg a lot more than a minion trait.

 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @Sublimatio.6981 said:

> im not sure soul spiral is worth using over rs auto. can someone post the power coefficients for each RS skill?

>

> also remember to cast rs5 and rs3 for chill to get the 10% modifier

 

RS4's new coefficient should be 4.2. I haven't calculated the others yet.

[Warscythes.9307]

> @Akame.1073 said:

> didnt miss your point , but they have no clue what to do or how to aproach with necro & this class is cursed with own skills & too much aoe + the traits are a mess & i get that someone likes minions , but they are a dead trait & will be ever with the current mechanic (even d2 had a better minion managment , even more with runes & that is an ancient game)

 

Nope, this is exactly the right way to approach it. You missed my point by talking about numbers which is something I pointed out in the very beginning that is not really what the post is about.

 

I am not sure why you are talking about too much aoe and trait or minions when I am literally just talking about Power Reaper changes in raid specifically; in which I believe they did a fantanstic job on. Numbers can change but the direction the balance is going for is perfect.

[Renita.7824]

From a raid standpoint only I have 2 arguments for why scourge is better than power reaper. On most fights epi is extremely useful and power reaper won't be able to use it effectively. I don't think power reaper brings enough to earn a meta spot, but in many training runs or groups with friends or even pugs they would fit, except the fact that they are almost exclusively melee is going to be a big problem in non perfect meta groups.

 

If we broke the comparisons into a fight by fight basis I think kc stands out as the best fight to play power reaper vs scourge, but even on that fight epi can be very effective at either bouncing condis to an add that must die very fast in order to cc or prevent a merge, or bouncing condis from the add to the boss. Gors is another fight where power reaper could do extremely well, but epi is super effective for killing bad orbs and barrier helps more people with the black on the ground than reapers shroud. On a perfectly played distortion vg power reaper for sure, but if you are doing greens as many groups do, scourge is better cause of range. If you play carne perfectly power reaper, if you ever get red power reaper is useless. Escort and trio would be fine with either, but the last boss in trio does take increased burn damage so +1 for scourge and epi is great cleave without needing pulls. Epi is so good on mursatt overseer. Sam is probably fine for either, but there are a little bit of mechanics that make you run out with keys, but it's so short, and epi is good for spikes but it's not a deal breaker. Sabatha is 100% scourge for epi, unquestionable. Mathias and Deimos require a lot of ranged dps so scourge there. Epi is so good for xera too, and the range is definately helpful. And then on sloth the condi clear and stun break from the fear are so good, plus epi, if used carefully to kill slubs without requiring a pull is super nice.

 

Sorry I didn't list by wing, I know it was a bit scatterbrained. I don't mean to imply that power reaper is all bad. They provide a lot of vuln if your group is lacking it for sure. I believe power necro requires more perfect play to perform well in raids (talking more mechanics than rotation here). I think in non perfectly played groups scourge brings more value with epidemic, range dps, and barrier (yes barrier is more helpful than people give credit for), and even condi cleanse than a power necro who brings vulnerability and maybe slightly more cc and a pull.

[Warscythes.9307]

> @Renita.7824 said:

> Snip

 

You are right, if we ignore numbers and talk about just mechanics Scourge do have 2 things over reaper. Range and having the best cleave in the entire game in the form of epidemic. Those factors are also incredibly good that it puts Scourge over Reaper in a vast majority of raiding situations; you are absolutely right. Reaper's advantage over Scourge is really just better CC. You can say Reaper is tanker which is true or Reaper can run blood with minimal dps loss for transfusion which is also true, but those are flimsy advantages at best. If you want to get down to it, the real question is comparing a single target melee dps to a ranged aoe mage and have the damage be somewhat balanced depending on the fight but that is a whole other can of worms that I don't really want to open right now.

 

The point of the post is to pretty much point out that the directions of the Power Reaper in the recent balanced patch is the correct way to do so in terms of PvE. as well as to why Power Reaper in raid in general. There has been too many threads on the forum lately talking about the balance in the terms of PvP or WvW, but I want to at least to say that the direction in PvE is correct. Buffing shroud damage so you actually use it for damage, nerf Shroud defense to compensate because Shroud is very strong in PvE in return for damage buffs. Now they just have to make sure the rotation under 50% is not just gravedigger spam and Power Reaper will be in good shape mechanic wise. More interesting damage utilities would be good too considering our damage choice seems to be wells or minions and neither are particularly impressive.

 

 

[squallaus.8321]

shroud is hardly very strong in pve.... compared to 2 patches ago, shroud now is 20% of what it was. First it got nerfed by 50% decay in terms of trait. Now it gets nerfed from 3% decay to 5% decay per second. All for what?.... 30% increase in power dmg for reaper shroud skills?...

Its not just about raw damage. It is the dmg to survivability ratio that matters. Or are you gonna keep blaming your team members when u fail?

[Akame.1073]

im w8 from vanila gw2 to go from right direction to acually being comepetitive , as for necro , shroud is for your burst , cc & defence = you ll have to make a choice in raid when to use what = a gimick that might cost you dps , or life or whipe . Epi is so strong that will never alow reaper to do decent dmg (in power or condy) also they calculate minion dmg in necros dmg output ( thow they are a dead trait ) = non competitive dps .

Will not alow necros to be a support class as they decided its a selfish class (the support we offer its lackluster & a gimick)

weaknes = its the eaziest condition to play = no need for necro

condi= other classes do it better = no need for necro

direct dmg =other classes do it better = no need for necro

support = other classes do it better = no need for necro

the 2 times we were actually good was due to a bug or unforseen machanic , raiding is all about being effective .....so what is it that i dont understand

[squallaus.8321]

What you don't understand is burst dmg vs sustain dmg. Theres no point doing 30% more dmg 20% of the time and neglect the other 80%. And theres no dmg if you're down or on the back foot. like I said how long are you gonna blame your failures on your team members?

[Akame.1073]

squallaus.8321 re-read my post /facepalm

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @Sublimatio.6981 said:

> > im not sure soul spiral is worth using over rs auto. can someone post the power coefficients for each RS skill?

> >

> > also remember to cast rs5 and rs3 for chill to get the 10% modifier

>

> RS4's new coefficient should be 4.2. I haven't calculated the others yet.

 

thats helpful, please share here the results when you check the other skills

[DarkForcE.9210]

I don’t understand why people keep on saying that 30% damage buff is good while nerfing defense and survivability. Damage difference is just lulz...

 

It’s like they are trying to push everyone to scourge and forced to play condi build (sad story for power build like me to go mystic forge, convert my ascended berserker gear to viper). Are we in Condi Wars 2? Yeah, let’s play all profession with condi build...

[Warscythes.9307]

> @DarkForcE.9210 said:

> I don’t understand why people keep on saying that 30% damage buff is good while nerfing defense and survivability. Damage difference is just lulz...

>

> It’s like they are trying to push everyone to scourge and forced to play condi build (sad story for power build like me to go mystic forge, convert my ascended berserker gear to viper). Are we in Condi Wars 2? Yeah, let’s play all profession with condi build...

 

Because in raid you do not camp shroud so the life force nerf is never an issue at all. Necro in general has long been extremely strong in open world pve because of Shroud defense is actually really really good because of the 50% damage reduction and some other factors. This makes it so that it is difficult to give necro competitive dps in raids without making them overpowered in pve. Why would you take a say an ele that dies in one hit when you can take a necro that pretty much never dies in raids if they all do the same damage.

 

So the solution is to nerf the defense in pve, is the exact same thing for Scourge and why shroud defense is taken away. So that scourge can actually do competitive damage in PvE.

 

Honestly you pretty much never camp shroud at all in PvE because you are losing damage by not using all your skills when you can. Don't be some conspiracy theorist and say they want you to play scourge, what is that logic?

 

> @Akame.1073 said:

> snip

 

You are partly right that shroud is your damage, cc and defense, but it wasn't before. It was literally just defense and cc, that is why I made this post and that is why I am saying it is a good idea because Shroud itself as a mechanic should be part of Reaper rotation.

 

I am still not sure why you are talking about minions. We do not take minions because they are some intrinsic part of Reaper, every necro can take it. We take it because they do the most damage. If we have some other utilities that does more damage than minions then they would be completely disregarded.

 

You are still missing my point here though. Because I mentioned in my second paragraph that buffing numbers is not the way to go. Yes being able to effective aka do the most damage as a dps is the way to be brought to raids, but that is not the point of this post. Because ultimately mechanics, theme and playstyle is what makes a class and separates one from another, not numbers.

 

Look, if they just buff gravedigger by say 50%, we would be instantly meta in raids. That however is not the solution. You can literally make every class viable by vastly inflating its numbers. Fixing the mechanic and play style is what is ultimately is important which is what they did here. Buffing Shroud damage and nerfing its defense is exactly the way to go.

[Raven.1524]

> @Akame.1073 said:

> sadly not a chance , to low dps & no team support so yea..... great patch

 

It's really funny when I read this kind of comments because necro has been destroying WvW being always one of the highest dps on most of the meta comps.

And since the power update some guilds have been testing it out, just found a video from a SF raid.

[Aetatis.5418]

> @Raven.1524 said:

> > @Akame.1073 said:

> > sadly not a chance , to low dps & no team support so yea..... great patch

>

> It's really funny when I read this kind of comments because necro has been destroying WvW being always one of the highest dps on most of the meta comps.

> And since the power update some guilds have been testing it out, just found a video from a SF raid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc0gP

 

it`s really funny when i see people reposting this yt link all over again.

yes it is good, yes it can do serious damage and yes it works just fine - IF your server/raid has the upper hand. if not OR in hard pirate ship... scourge is way (!!) superior :)