Swadow.6213 Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 So a short while ago I had posted a suggestion on reworking necromancer MH Dagger, but the more I have been thinking about it the core necro has way more problems. So this is my suggestion on how I feel core necromancer should be changed. Edit. So the reason I would want the core necromancer taken a look at is due to necromancer being the odd one out of all the professions. While all others have active defenses, all necro has is the shroud. The shroud is also used as an excuse to not give necromancer comparable damage to other professions when it comes to PvE and as a result has been looked down upon ever since the original launch. Making necromancer more like the other professions with active defenses like block and evasion, while removing the "Double Health Bar"-meme to allow the necromancer to be in the same ballpark as the other professions when it comes to PvE aswell. Edit. 2 fixed a few typos and several formatting errors >#Death Shroud >- No longer turns Life Force into health, rather every used point of Life Force is turned into healing at a ratio. >- No longer blocks necromancer out of utilities >- Still activates weapon swap sigils >- All skills now cost Life Force >- Grants a medium barrier when entered >- Getting hit while in Shroud reduces Life Force in addition to dealing damage >_If Death Shroud being a second health bar directly is such a big issue, lets make it indirect. This should make it alright to give the core necromancer some kind of survivability_ --- #Weapons ##Dagger >### Autoattack chain >>#### Necrotic Slash >>Slash your foe twice. Applies bleeding on each hit >>_Not much changed here, but now applies bleeding to synergize with Life Siphon's damage_ >>#### Necrotic Stab >>Stab your foe again draining their stamina. Gain 5% endurance if target is bleeding. >>_Quite simple buff here, now also grants some utility for the weapon_ >>#### Necrotic Bite >>Strike your foe gaining life force and healing allies around you. Healing increased if enemy is bleeding. >>_Very simple change again, healing around you with increasing the healing when bleeding, more synergy with bleeding_ >**These would be changes to make the dagger a bit more vampiric and also a supportier weapon with healing.** >###Life Siphon >Siphon health from your foe to you and your allies. Healing effectiveness increased if you are bleeding. Damage increases by 1% per stack of bleeding up to 25%. Overflowing blood is expelled to grant regeneration and damage nearby enemies if healing while above health threshold. >_Self-Healing stays same, a bit more damage synergy with bleeding_ >_When heal target is above the health threshold grants 2s of regeneration per pulse and deals the healing amount around the healed target_ >###Dark Pact >Immobilize your foe. Shadowstep to your target and bleed yourself violently blasting area around you. Consume X stacks of bleeding on enemy to instantly deal their damage, convert boons to conditions and grant you and your allies quickness. >_More mobility for the necromancer_ >_Still synergizes well with Life Siphon and self-bleeding_ >###Deathly Swarm >- Renamed to Deathly Transference >- No longer bounces >- When hitting a target, shadowstep to that target transferring 3 conditions and dealing damage >###Enfeebling Blood >- Now PBAoE >- Deals higher damage --- >##Axe >###Autoattack >- Now a chain >>###Rending Claw >>- Deal damage and apply 1 stack of vuln >>- Hits in small AoE >>###Necrotic Claw >>- Deal damage and apply 1 stack of vuln >>- Hits in small AoE >>##Spectral Claw >>- Deal damage, gain small amount of Life Force and summon a shortlasting spectral minion to hit target >>- Hits in small AoE and spectral minion is only created on the main target >>- Spectral Minion: >> - Stacks up to 3 >> - Deals minor damage while on target >> - Lasts for a short duration, additional spectral minions reset existing timers >###Ghastly Claws >- Increased damage per vuln stack changed to increased damage when enemy is vulnerable. >- Every hit makes a spectral minion on target explode as Unholy Burst >###Unholy Feast >- Health Threshold for Unholy Burst increased to 50% --- >##Focus >###Reaper's Touch >- Block for the next X seconds >- Grant yourself Regen >- Apply vulnerability to enemies hitting you when blocking >- Gain Life Force when hit while blocking >_Now that Death Shroud is no longer the magnificent double healthbar necro needs some survivability tools_ >###Spinal Shivers >- Unchanged --- >##Warhorn >### Wail of Doom >- Added damage >###Locust Swarm >- Renamed to Locust's Quickness >- Functionality changed >- Now grants superspeed >- Pulse cripple >- Evade attacks for X seconds >- Every hit evaded grants Life Force --- >##Staff >###Necrotic Grasp >- Increased projectile speed >- Inscribes a Mark of Minor Healing under hit targets. Mark of Minor Healing gives a minor heal to allies stepping inside the mark >###Marks >-Unchanged, staff is pretty good --- >##Scepter >-Unchanged --- # Utilities >## Minions >--- >### Base improvements >- All minions now use countsystem, minions are resummoned once count is regained. Charge is used when minion dies or the skill is used. >- Minions now heel if necro sheathes weapons for more control. >- Minions teleport next to the necro when skill is used to make hitting more consistent as minion can be out of range when necromancer himself is. >--- >### Summon Blood Fiend >- Maximum count 1, count recharge 16 seconds >- Attack speed increased >- Reduces count recharge of other minion skills when used by 6 seconds when used >_Better utility and more synergy with other minions_ >### Summon Bone Minions >- Maximum count 2, count recharge 6 seconds >- Explosion is now ground targetable >_More control, more uptime, way more usable_ >--- >### Summon Bone Fiend >- Maximum count 1, count recharge 20 seconds >- Autoattacks hit 3 targets >_Usable more often, more AoE potential_ >--- >### Summon Shadow Fiend >- Maximum count 1, count recharge 20 seconds >- Autoattack faster >- Haunt cast time faster >_Haunt is usable as often, does not take as long to get back up, does not take forever to do anything_ >--- >### Summon Flesh Wurm >- Maximum count 1, count recharge 30 >- Now able to move with necromancer >- Necrotic Traversal: >- Functionality changed: Now sends your wurm to a target location, poisoning enemies in the area and creating a blast finisher. Stays in the target location for 10 seconds dealing increased damage. Allows to use Necrotic Sacrifice while stationary. Necrotic Sacrifice has old functionality >- Now usable underwater, Necrotic Traversal requires a target while underwater. >_Now mobile, usable slightly more often and way more usable_ >--- >### Summon Flesh Golem >- Maximum count 1, count recharge 40 seconds >- Teleports behind the necromancer before using >_Not much changed, only the count system really_ --- >## Signets >--- >###Signet of Spite >- Passive: > - Not changed >- Active: > - Gain X might for Y Seconds > - Mark a target for X seconds. All hits against that target grant Life Force and recharges skill to enter shroud >- Recharge reduced to 40 seconds >_Power granting signet really makes no sense to put all conditions as active, now more focused on Shroud_ >--- >### Signet of Locust >- Recharge reduced to 26 seconds >- Passive: > - You run 25% faster. You are surrounded by damaging locusts while in combat that hit nearby enemies >- Active: > - Steal health and Life Force from nearby enemies >_Somewhat useful in combat rather than only being useful for moving_ >--- >###Plague Signet >- Renamed to Signet of Plague >- Functionality unchanged >--- >###Signet of Undeath >- Recharge reduced to 40 seconds >- Passive: > - Now recharges 1% Life Force per second while in combat >- Active: > - Summon 4 Jagged Horrors and 4 Unstable Horrors over 2 seconds >_It is that one signet no one uses, because it really is not that useful completely changed_ >--- >###Signet of Vampirism >- Now grants passive to allies. >--- >###Signet of Woe >- New Elite >- Passive: > - Apply tormet to nearby enemies every 3 seconds >- Active: > - Gain full Life Force and instantly recharge shroud >- 60 second Recharge --- >##Spectral >--- >###Spectral Armor, Spectral Walk >- Unchanged >--- >###Spectral Grasp >- Recharge reduced to 30 seconds >- Now grants 10% + 5% Life Force per target hit >_Usable more often, rewards hitting multiple people_ >--- >###Spectral Wall >- Functionality reworked >- Creates a spectral wall in front of the necromancer protecting him. Allies passing the wall are protected and enemies hitting the wall are feared. Can be activated again to send wall to move quickly forwards. Projectiles hitting the wall grant Life Force and are destroyed. Can only affect a target every 2 seconds. Lasts 6 seconds. >- Now usable underwater >_More mobile version of the wall and some projectile protection_ >--- >###Lich Form >- No longer grants boosted stats. Now grants 5% Life Force when leaving Lich Form. No longer grants pulsing stability. >- Now works more like a kit. Gives access to new set of abilities 1-5. Access to utilities is preserved. Autoattack power reduced to compensate being able to access more often. >- Cooldown of 10 seconds when leaving >- Now usable underwater >_More aking to a GW1 elite than the current long cooldown skill that almost never gets used_ --- >##Wells >--- >###Core Wells >- Unchanged >--- >###Well of Death >- New Well Elite >- Deals massive damage >- Every pulse summons a necrotic chain to hit target revealing them. When the well ends are pulled back towards the well, dealing damage per chain. >- Using the well and the end grants allies 10 Might, Fury and Quickness. >- 80 second cooldown --- >##Corruption >--- >###Core Corruption skills >- Unchanged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svarty.8019 Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 I appreciate that a lot of effort went into this. Thanks for your work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronos.6532 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 Good list of changes, except for the very first one * No longer turns Life Force into health, rather every used point of Life Force is turned into healing at a ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 > @Cronos.6532 said: > Good list of changes, except for the very first one > > * No longer turns Life Force into health, rather every used point of Life Force is turned into healing at a ratio. Well the first part is good: > No longer turns Life Force into health The second part isn't: > rather every used point of Life Force is turned into healing at a ratio. And this kill the purpose of the change to the shroud: > Getting hit while in Shroud reduces Life Force in addition to dealing damage OP, the problem of the shroud is that it do both defense and support/damage. What's needed is to separate the whole defense thingy from the LF thing. Shroud acting as a weapon swap that empower you through traits would already be more than enough to make it good. The decay acting as a time limiter for this empowerment would still be fine promoting a kind of shroud dance in order to maximise your efficacy. What's needed alongside that is both removing most of the LF gain from utility skills and add a defensive system in these utility. Most likely, by changing the way spectral skills work. If you just make them grant you barrier instead of life force, you got your independant defense and a usable shroud. One point is that there is no way a necromancer survive with the changes you propose, in a way he would be in a worst position than he is right now. Like I said, rework spectral skills so that they grant barrier instead of life force, this grant the necromancer defensive CD that are easy to balance. Give an identity to the DS by pushing it into a more defensive/support tool throught a rework of it's skills. Keep RS as a very offensive tool. And most of the issue that the necromancer suffer are addressed. Other profession wouldn't even be able to whine about shroud op defense or op damage because it wouldn't be very different than what they use themself. If they were to point the large health point thingy we could even reply by saying that they can still take some vitality in their build if they ain't happy. NB.: best way to address Lich form is to remove it from the game, it's ugly, have a short uptime and most of it's skills are worthless on to of making your movment dull and locking you out of your utility skills. There is litterally no good point in this sh*t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brujeria.7536 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 Much of this is too minion focused. Also i dont like what you did with shroud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swadow.6213 Posted November 12, 2017 Author Share Posted November 12, 2017 > @Dadnir.5038 said: > OP, the problem of the shroud is that it do both defense and support/damage. What's needed is to separate the whole defense thingy from the LF thing. How is the removal of it acting as a second health bar not separating it from being defensive? With using(or consuming) Life Force providing healing instead of straight health bar, it wont ever be as defensive as the current implementation of Death Shroud. > Shroud acting as a weapon swap that empower you through traits would already be more than enough to make it good. The decay acting as a time limiter for this empowerment would still be fine promoting a kind of shroud dance in order to maximise your efficacy. > > What's needed alongside that is both removing most of the LF gain from utility skills and add a defensive system in these utility. Most likely, by changing the way spectral skills work. If you just make them grant you barrier instead of life force, you got your independant defense and a usable shroud. Why should utilities not provide Life Force? Warrior utilities provide adrenaline. Revenant utilities use energy. Thief utilities provide Initiative. > One point is that there is no way a necromancer survive with the changes you propose, in a way he would be in a worst position than he is right now. > > Like I said, rework spectral skills so that they grant barrier instead of life force, this grant the necromancer defensive CD that are easy to balance. Give an identity to the DS by pushing it into a more defensive/support tool throught a rework of it's skills. Keep RS as a very offensive tool. And most of the issue that the necromancer suffer are addressed. Other profession wouldn't even be able to whine about shroud op defense or op damage because it wouldn't be very different than what they use themself. If they were to point the large health point thingy we could even reply by saying that they can still take some vitality in their build if they ain't happy. The way necromancer would be able to survive after the changes would be through active defenses like block on focus, evasion on warhorn, mobility on daggers and healing through using shroud skills. Spectral skills are mostly defensive already, making them give temporary health would just be boring. > NB.: best way to address Lich form is to remove it from the game, it's ugly, have a short uptime and most of it's skills are worthless on to of making your movment dull and locking you out of your utility skills. There is litterally no good point in this kitten. All of those I have addressed in the Lich Form changes. It kinda sounds like you read just the Death Shroud changes instead of considering the whole picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swadow.6213 Posted November 12, 2017 Author Share Posted November 12, 2017 > @Brujeria.7536 said: > Much of this is too minion focused. Also i dont like what you did with shroud. Isnt necromancy mostly focused on minions? Are minions not the most defining aspect of necromancers? If you dont mind, what is actually wrong with the shroud changes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 > @Swadow.6213 said: > > @Brujeria.7536 said: > > Much of this is too minion focused. Also i dont like what you did with shroud. > > Isnt necromancy mostly focused on minions? Are minions not the most defining aspect of necromancers? If you dont mind, what is actually wrong with the shroud changes? Yes, it was supposed to be necromancers main theme (imo) minions are pretty useless considering they die when you look at them. traits supporting them are just to buff their toughness or vitality. Minions got nerfed to be nothng but sponges that chase opponents around till they die. used to have fun blasting capabilities, putrid explosions etc. But everything that brings something different to the table , iow cutting out anything that might stand out or creates a different way of playing, is nerfed because ..reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 > @Swadow.6213 said: > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > OP, the problem of the shroud is that it do both defense and support/damage. What's needed is to separate the whole defense thingy from the LF thing. > > How is the removal of it acting as a second health bar not separating it from being defensive? With using(or consuming) Life Force providing healing instead of straight health bar, it wont ever be as defensive as the current implementation of Death Shroud. > The issue is that you keep the fact that damage while in shroud rip you of your life force, that's what I point. It's this very thing that cripple us both in defense and attack. > > Shroud acting as a weapon swap that empower you through traits would already be more than enough to make it good. The decay acting as a time limiter for this empowerment would still be fine promoting a kind of shroud dance in order to maximise your efficacy. > > > > What's needed alongside that is both removing most of the LF gain from utility skills and add a defensive system in these utility. Most likely, by changing the way spectral skills work. If you just make them grant you barrier instead of life force, you got your independant defense and a usable shroud. > > Why should utilities not provide Life Force? Warrior utilities provide adrenaline. Revenant utilities use energy. Thief utilities provide Initiative. To provide a minimum of balance. Keep the LF gain on the weapon so that you basically build LF while out of shroud and then burst through thing while in shroud. it's a kind of rythm, and there would be no sense in shroud being a boost if it was permanent thanks to utility. > > One point is that there is no way a necromancer survive with the changes you propose, in a way he would be in a worst position than he is right now. > > > > Like I said, rework spectral skills so that they grant barrier instead of life force, this grant the necromancer defensive CD that are easy to balance. Give an identity to the DS by pushing it into a more defensive/support tool throught a rework of it's skills. Keep RS as a very offensive tool. And most of the issue that the necromancer suffer are addressed. Other profession wouldn't even be able to whine about shroud op defense or op damage because it wouldn't be very different than what they use themself. If they were to point the large health point thingy we could even reply by saying that they can still take some vitality in their build if they ain't happy. > > The way necromancer would be able to survive after the changes would be through active defenses like block on focus, evasion on warhorn, mobility on daggers and healing through using shroud skills. Spectral skills are mostly defensive already, making them give temporary health would just be boring. > This is were you're wrong barrier and sheer gain of health are vastly different because barrier grant you a sheer damage reduction. > > NB.: best way to address Lich form is to remove it from the game, it's ugly, have a short uptime and most of it's skills are worthless on to of making your movment dull and locking you out of your utility skills. There is litterally no good point in this kitten. > > All of those I have addressed in the Lich Form changes. > Absolutely not. You give a kit, you keep all the boring stuff. honestly 1 transform whith the shroud is already way to much. > It kinda sounds like you read just the Death Shroud changes instead of considering the whole picture. I do not comment onto your other change because I find them either overpowered or pointless. It does not make the game better or more balance, it just keep the boring thing and add unnecessary op stuff on top of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swadow.6213 Posted November 12, 2017 Author Share Posted November 12, 2017 > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > @Swadow.6213 said: > > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > OP, the problem of the shroud is that it do both defense and support/damage. What's needed is to separate the whole defense thingy from the LF thing. > > > > How is the removal of it acting as a second health bar not separating it from being defensive? With using(or consuming) Life Force providing healing instead of straight health bar, it wont ever be as defensive as the current implementation of Death Shroud. > > > > The issue is that you keep the fact that damage while in shroud rip you of your life force, that's what I point. It's this very thing that cripple us both in defense and attack. Being counterable cripples us huh? Okay > > > Shroud acting as a weapon swap that empower you through traits would already be more than enough to make it good. The decay acting as a time limiter for this empowerment would still be fine promoting a kind of shroud dance in order to maximise your efficacy. > > > > > > What's needed alongside that is both removing most of the LF gain from utility skills and add a defensive system in these utility. Most likely, by changing the way spectral skills work. If you just make them grant you barrier instead of life force, you got your independant defense and a usable shroud. > > > > Why should utilities not provide Life Force? Warrior utilities provide adrenaline. Revenant utilities use energy. Thief utilities provide Initiative. > > To provide a minimum of balance. Keep the LF gain on the weapon so that you basically build LF while out of shroud and then burst through thing while in shroud. it's a kind of rythm, and there would be no sense in shroud being a boost if it was permanent thanks to utility. Should adrenaline and initiative also be only gained by hitting/getting hit and over time? > > > > One point is that there is no way a necromancer survive with the changes you propose, in a way he would be in a worst position than he is right now. > > > > > > Like I said, rework spectral skills so that they grant barrier instead of life force, this grant the necromancer defensive CD that are easy to balance. Give an identity to the DS by pushing it into a more defensive/support tool throught a rework of it's skills. Keep RS as a very offensive tool. And most of the issue that the necromancer suffer are addressed. Other profession wouldn't even be able to whine about shroud op defense or op damage because it wouldn't be very different than what they use themself. If they were to point the large health point thingy we could even reply by saying that they can still take some vitality in their build if they ain't happy. > > > > The way necromancer would be able to survive after the changes would be through active defenses like block on focus, evasion on warhorn, mobility on daggers and healing through using shroud skills. Spectral skills are mostly defensive already, making them give temporary health would just be boring. > > > > This is were you're wrong barrier and sheer gain of health are vastly different because barrier grant you a sheer damage reduction. I have no idea what you are saying here. > > > > NB.: best way to address Lich form is to remove it from the game, it's ugly, have a short uptime and most of it's skills are worthless on to of making your movment dull and locking you out of your utility skills. There is litterally no good point in this kitten. > > > > All of those I have addressed in the Lich Form changes. > > > Absolutely not. You give a kit, you keep all the boring stuff. honestly 1 transform whith the shroud is already way to much. You know that it being boring is just your opinion? The skills are plenty interesting to me, but the cooldown and duration of the form is really an issue > > > It kinda sounds like you read just the Death Shroud changes instead of considering the whole picture. > > I do not comment onto your other change because I find them either overpowered or pointless. It does not make the game better or more balance, it just keep the boring thing and add unnecessary op stuff on top of it. > Uhuh, sure. Pointless or OP. Making minions usable is pointless, making Axe and Dagger viable MHs is pointless, fixing the OH options of necro is pointless, adding missing elite types is pointless, changing the unusable signets to something useful is pointless. I guess any changes to the profession is pointless, so lets just wait for an elite specialization to fix things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmageddonAsh.6430 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 What they should have done with both Base and Reaper is what they have done with Scourge. You have the Lifeforce but its ONLY used for the skills, so they could turn Shroud into something similar, move the skills onto the F1-F5 bar that allows you to use them whenever you want with obviously a cost and cool down. Visually, not quite sure how they could pull some of them off but mechanic wise. It could be done. This would totally remove the "life force second health bar" from the class altogether, meaning that Necro, Reaper AND scourge could get some PROPER defensive ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @Swadow.6213 said: > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > @Swadow.6213 said: > > > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > > OP, the problem of the shroud is that it do both defense and support/damage. What's needed is to separate the whole defense thingy from the LF thing. > > > > > > How is the removal of it acting as a second health bar not separating it from being defensive? With using(or consuming) Life Force providing healing instead of straight health bar, it wont ever be as defensive as the current implementation of Death Shroud. > > > > > > > The issue is that you keep the fact that damage while in shroud rip you of your life force, that's what I point. It's this very thing that cripple us both in defense and attack. > > Being counterable cripples us huh? Okay Should I recall you that in shroud you can still be interrupt? Should warrior lose their adrenaline when they are it? Should elementalist have a cast time on their attunment and interrupting them when they change attunment put it on CD? Excuse me but shroud skills even supported by all the traits possible aren't even very competitive against our own weapon skills (which is a shame seeing how "good" those skills are). By tying those skills to a form that disapear even faster when you are struck, you just prevent those skill to gain any room to shine. So yes indeed you cripple the necromancer, there is a limit to being counterable. Beside "consuming life force providing healing" would obviously be countered even more by "poison". What you do is putting counters on a transform skill that have skills that will never shine because you can prevent the necro to use it by both putting him out of the transform skill and interrupting these skills. On top of that it's not like other professions don't have boons, conditions, block, evade frame...etc. to counter the damage you might do with thoses skills. And you dare say: "Being counterable cripples us huh? Okay" You put so much counter on this that it become pointless. There is no need to counter the window in which you use your shroud skills, from the very begining those skills can already be countered and are far away from being so OP that they need to be accessed for a very short time. Like someone said, even with 25% more dps than it is atm, the necromancer wouldn't be able to compete against the dps of a weaver. Why the hell would you need to prevent the necromancer from using it's shroud skills by punishing him when he is in shroud? The only reason damage reduce Life force is because there is a need to counter the survivability. Not the damage or the support, just the god damn survivability. That's why if you remove the "2nd life bar" there is no need for more counter to the already pathetic dps increase that the shroud skills might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonasBL.8270 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 Very very interesting ideas - like most of it alot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadvillager.1956 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 I like most of your ideas, especially new elites are always welcome :D i am not sold on your shroud rework though. In my opinion all it takes to make shroud work is have grandmaster traits in spite, curses and death that change shroud to trade shroud survivability for power/condi damage and vice versa. The current problem is not that shroud as a mechanic is a bad idea, it is just missing the choice of altering it to a damage or defense tool efficiently. What we are currently left with is a bad compromise of both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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