[IDEA] Adding whirl finisher (or something else) to Dagger 2

[leasm.1279]

IMO Dagger is great, but something is lacking on Dagger 2.

Dagger 1 has good dps, Dagger 3 is a good engage, but Dagger 2 is in no way exciting.

Maybe it's the animation, but the truth is I don't even notice this skill in the middle of a fight. I only know I have used it because the icon goes on cooldown. LOL

 

**So, what about adding a whirl finisher to Dagger 2?**

 

Not only would make the skill usage more obvious, but also would synergize way too well with the spreading condi theme. Also would synergize with the new Predator's Cunning when used on poison fields. Seems great! Also the Devs can add something else if they want, but please do something to make this skill better.

[InsaneQR.7412]

A 1/4 s stun to interupt skills and trigger twice as vicious would be better IMO.

[ProtoMarcus.7649]

* Dagger **2** needs an evade frame (and different animation)

* Dagger **3** needs a very short (1/4 second daze) interrupt to proc Twice as Vicious

 

Made an extensive feedback thread back in september [here](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/6203/ "here") - in short, Dagger has good DPS, but horrible **Utility**

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @ProtoMarcus.7649 said:

> * Dagger **2** needs an evade frame (and different animation)

> * Dagger **3** needs a very short (1/4 second daze) interrupt to proc Twice as Vicious

>

> Made an extensive feedback thread back in september [here](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/6203/ "here") - in short, Dagger has good DPS, but horrible **Utility**

 

Well horrible is alittle bit harsh here. The leap is awesome but the dagger 2 just does dmg and does not even have a different animation than the AA. There should be more utility and flavor.

[Lazze.9870]

> @ProtoMarcus.7649 said:

> * Dagger **2** needs an evade frame (and different animation)

> * Dagger **3** needs a very short (1/4 second daze) interrupt to proc Twice as Vicious

>

> Made an extensive feedback thread back in september [here](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/6203/ "here") - in short, Dagger has good DPS, but horrible **Utility**

 

This.

[Eleazar.9478]

> @InsaneQR.7412 said:

> > @ProtoMarcus.7649 said:

> > * Dagger **2** needs an evade frame (and different animation)

> > * Dagger **3** needs a very short (1/4 second daze) interrupt to proc Twice as Vicious

> >

> > Made an extensive feedback thread back in september [here](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/6203/ "here") - in short, Dagger has good DPS, but horrible **Utility**

>

> Well horrible is alittle bit harsh here. The leap is awesome but the dagger 2 just does dmg and does not even have a different animation than the AA. There should be more utility and flavor.

 

It is **horrible**, it has no utility and doesn't even synergize with twice as vicous. Ya it's good as a braindead dps weapon for pve, that's about all it does, no interesting combos, nothing. Don't get me wrong I like the feel of a dagger, close range ranger, but really isn't anything outside of a lame damage over time numbers game.

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @Eleazar.9478 said:

> > @InsaneQR.7412 said:

> > > @ProtoMarcus.7649 said:

> > > * Dagger **2** needs an evade frame (and different animation)

> > > * Dagger **3** needs a very short (1/4 second daze) interrupt to proc Twice as Vicious

> > >

> > > Made an extensive feedback thread back in september [here](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/6203/ "here") - in short, Dagger has good DPS, but horrible **Utility**

> >

> > Well horrible is alittle bit harsh here. The leap is awesome but the dagger 2 just does dmg and does not even have a different animation than the AA. There should be more utility and flavor.

>

> It is **horrible**, it has no utility and doesn't even synergize with twice as vicous. Ya it's good as a braindead dps weapon for pve, that's about all it does, no interesting combos, nothing. Don't get me wrong I like the feel of a dagger, close range ranger, but really isn't anything outside of a lame damage over time numbers game.

 

The gap closer has great utility. The AA is DPS focussed. Nothing wrong until you look at dagger 2. The weapon has not horrible utility. This skill has horrible utility. Its just pure dmg woth little to no interaction.

 

Id say the skill should get a different animation.

It should apply poison instead of bleeding and the next attack of your pet stuns.

So with 6 stacks of poison this would give nice healing from predators cunning and the stun would trigger twice as vicious.

Dagger 3 should get an evade frame for QoL. So you get not midair CCed or downed.

[Eleazar.9478]

> @InsaneQR.7412 said:

> > @Eleazar.9478 said:

> > > @InsaneQR.7412 said:

> > > > @ProtoMarcus.7649 said:

> > > > * Dagger **2** needs an evade frame (and different animation)

> > > > * Dagger **3** needs a very short (1/4 second daze) interrupt to proc Twice as Vicious

> > > >

> > > > Made an extensive feedback thread back in september [here](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/6203/ "here") - in short, Dagger has good DPS, but horrible **Utility**

> > >

> > > Well horrible is alittle bit harsh here. The leap is awesome but the dagger 2 just does dmg and does not even have a different animation than the AA. There should be more utility and flavor.

> >

> > It is **horrible**, it has no utility and doesn't even synergize with twice as vicous. Ya it's good as a braindead dps weapon for pve, that's about all it does, no interesting combos, nothing. Don't get me wrong I like the feel of a dagger, close range ranger, but really isn't anything outside of a lame damage over time numbers game.

>

> The gap closer has great utility. The AA is DPS focussed. Nothing wrong until you look at dagger 2. The weapon has not horrible utility. This skill has horrible utility. Its just pure dmg woth little to no interaction.

>

> Id say the skill should get a different animation.

> It should apply poison instead of bleeding and the next attack of your pet stuns.

> So with 6 stacks of poison this would give nice healing from predators cunning and the stun would trigger twice as vicious.

> Dagger 3 should get an evade frame for QoL. So you get not midair CCed or downed.

 

See now that would make it from a useless weapon (pvp wvw) into an excellent weapon that synergizes with our traits. A daze and evade frame now that's pretty damn good utility. Ya the posion change would be nice too

[Professor Sprout.1560]

My issue with Dagger 2 in PvE is that this skill is one of things locking condition builds into maintaining merged form for 100% of the fight. The damage difference on dagger 2 between the merged (you inflict the poison) and unmerged (your pet inflicts the poison) situations is substantial, and with a cooldown of 10 seconds of beastmode and 7 seconds on the dagger you can't dance in and out of beastmode without either losing poison stacks or delaying the attack. To me any changes to the dagger skill set to increase utility should also address this problem. Some options:

 

1. Ensure that the "condition on pet's next attack" effect is on a skill that has the ammunition mechanic. The flexibility provided by the ammunition mechanic would allow two playstyles to be supported: those who camp beastmode could simply cast the skill off of cooldown as before; whereas those who dance into an out of beastmode can save up charges accrued whilst out of beastmode, only to cast them once beastmode is entered.

2. Get rid of the "condition on pet's next attack" mechanic. I say this because I feel like this effect is an example of "false flexibility" - in theory the skill might provide flexibility by letting you decide whether you or your pet makes the attack, but in practice I question the frequency with which a situation will arise where it makes more sense for your pet to apply the stacks. Hence the false flexibility: the choice is there, but one of the options is almost always going to be wrong.

3. Change the weapon from a high-concept level so that it has "glyph-like" functionality, i.e. that the effects of the skills change based on whether you are merged or unmerged with your pet, the bake into that split functionality good reasons to use it with each of the three beastmode usage profiles (sustain DPS camp beastmode, bursty DPS beastmodeswapping, tanky reactive beastmode). Perhaps something like the following:

 

Dagger autos: Instead of their current condition effects these now each inflict 3 seconds of poison when out of beastmode. Whilst in beastmode they instead inflict 4 seconds of bleed.

Instinctive Engage: Move to skill 2. Remove quickness, this skill now inflicts the bleed portion of Double Arc when striking a foe whilst in beastmode. When used out of beastmode the skill inflicts a stack of poison per hit and causes your pet's next four attacks to inflict poison.*

New Skill 3 "Soulbeast's Sting" sequence skill A: Shadowstep to your pet's location and merge with your pet, gaining quickness. If used whilst in beastmode then leave beastmode by launching your pet at your foe, interrupting them and inflicting bleed.

New Skill 3 "Soulbeast's Leap" sequence skill B: Rush at your foe, inflicting heavy bleed if not in beastmode and heavy poison if in beastmode. In both cases the skill is an leap finisher, an interrupt and gives quickness.

*If it doesn't already, this pet poison should also trigger the lifedrain from predator's cunning.

 

With ideal balance this setup would give the weapon DPS flexibility:

* If you camp beastmode you get sustained DPS from skills 1 & 2, and since the damage is bleed-only grieving/krait rune build options are now opened up.

* If you stay out of beastmode you get sustained lifedrain healing from all the poison on skills 1 & 2, and since it is poison-only dire/thorns build options are now opened up. Skill 3A is also very helpful as it lets the build reposition and gives quickness to help cast Spiritual Reprieve, or else transition towards a burst using 3B.

* If you like to cycle in and out of beastmode then both modes of skills 1 & 2 are useful, although you'd have to invest in both conditions for best results. The main perk here is now the weapon set has some burst attacks that revolve around swapping beastmode. The first of these is to cast Instinctive Edge out of beastmode for the poison pet procs, then swap to beastmode to pass those procs to the ranger; the second is to use 3A & 3B on cooldown for big condition bursts that auto-swap you in and out of your pet.

 

All that would be left to do at that point is introduce a similar function dichotomy into the offhand dagger skills from the core ranger and the weapon set might be more interesting to use.

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"Professor Sprout.1560" said:

> My issue with Dagger 2 in PvE is that this skill is one of things locking condition builds into maintaining merged form for 100% of the fight. The damage difference on dagger 2 between the merged (you inflict the poison) and unmerged (your pet inflicts the poison) situations is substantial, and with a cooldown of 10 seconds of beastmode and 7 seconds on the dagger you can't dance in and out of beastmode without either losing poison stacks or delaying the attack. To me any changes to the dagger skill set to increase utility should also address this problem. Some options:

>

> 1. Ensure that the "condition on pet's next attack" effect is on a skill that has the ammunition mechanic. The flexibility provided by the ammunition mechanic would allow two playstyles to be supported: those who camp beastmode could simply cast the skill off of cooldown as before; whereas those who dance into an out of beastmode can save up charges accrued whilst out of beastmode, only to cast them once beastmode is entered.

> 2. Get rid of the "condition on pet's next attack" mechanic. I say this because I feel like this effect is an example of "false flexibility" - in theory the skill might provide flexibility by letting you decide whether you or your pet makes the attack, but in practice I question the frequency with which a situation will arise where it makes more sense for your pet to apply the stacks. Hence the false flexibility: the choice is there, but one of the options is almost always going to be wrong.

> 3. Change the weapon from a high-concept level so that it has "glyph-like" functionality, i.e. that the effects of the skills change based on whether you are merged or unmerged with your pet, the bake into that split functionality good reasons to use it with each of the three beastmode usage profiles (sustain DPS camp beastmode, bursty DPS beastmodeswapping, tanky reactive beastmode). Perhaps something like the following:

>

> Dagger autos: Instead of their current condition effects these now each inflict 3 seconds of poison when out of beastmode. Whilst in beastmode they instead inflict 4 seconds of bleed.

> Instinctive Engage: Move to skill 2. Remove quickness, this skill now inflicts the bleed portion of Double Arc when striking a foe whilst in beastmode. When used out of beastmode the skill inflicts a stack of poison per hit and causes your pet's next four attacks to inflict poison.*

> New Skill 3 "Soulbeast's Sting" sequence skill A: Shadowstep to your pet's location and merge with your pet, gaining quickness. If used whilst in beastmode then leave beastmode by launching your pet at your foe, interrupting them and inflicting bleed.

> New Skill 3 "Soulbeast's Leap" sequence skill B: Rush at your foe, inflicting heavy bleed if not in beastmode and heavy poison if in beastmode. In both cases the skill is an leap finisher, an interrupt and gives quickness.

> *If it doesn't already, this pet poison should also trigger the lifedrain from predator's cunning.

>

> With ideal balance this setup would give the weapon DPS flexibility:

> * If you camp beastmode you get sustained DPS from skills 1 & 2, and since the damage is bleed-only grieving/krait rune build options are now opened up.

> * If you stay out of beastmode you get sustained lifedrain healing from all the poison on skills 1 & 2, and since it is poison-only dire/thorns build options are now opened up. Skill 3A is also very helpful as it lets the build reposition and gives quickness to help cast Spiritual Reprieve, or else transition towards a burst using 3B.

> * If you like to cycle in and out of beastmode then both modes of skills 1 & 2 are useful, although you'd have to invest in both conditions for best results. The main perk here is now the weapon set has some burst attacks that revolve around swapping beastmode. The first of these is to cast Instinctive Edge out of beastmode for the poison pet procs, then swap to beastmode to pass those procs to the ranger; the second is to use 3A & 3B on cooldown for big condition bursts that auto-swap you in and out of your pet.

>

> All that would be left to do at that point is introduce a similar function dichotomy into the offhand dagger skills from the core ranger and the weapon set might be more interesting to use.

 

Well i like your ambishous atempt, but the more you want to overhaul the weapon the less likely the changes will become.

Weaponskills that will put you in beastmode will mess with a lot of balance and never gonna happen.