If you're going to add more raids, fix elitism first

[Vulf.3098]

>@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> You could use that arguement against anything, its moot. Wow is screwed becaue theres a power race going on whereas in GW2 the lower dfficulity content would simply open up the content to more people with no side effects on game balancing or hard mode raids. The only people this affects are those that want raids to be exclusive to protect their own interests.

 

 

Multi tiered raid difficulties have already been proven to not increase the amount of people to join that content. When WoW first added multiple flex difficulties the amount of the population that did that content was still incredibly small. How did they change this? They tied a very large amount of the games story and 100% of your characters late game progression behind it. This was the huge reason why the LFR difficulty became a thing so everyone had a chance to experience the story. They essentially made raids at least one of the difficulties forced upon you if you wanted to continue with character progression.

 

Gw2's raids have such a small story behind it that it is almost irrelevant and the big reward associated with it is armor with a convenience factor. Raiding in Gw2 is 100% optional and should stay that way. Adding more difficulties does nothing to address the lack of the population that does it.

 

 

[Genesis.5169]

> @Greyraven.4258 said:

> It's really a simple solution that arenanet as a company practices in many areas already and that is a zero tolerance for rude and insulting behavior.

>

> So it wouldn't be a matter of fixing elitism, but addressing the rude toxic behavior that comes with it...which is more doable I think.

 

Like like doing forces kicks to votes? That would just force already competent commanders to not pug at all leaving you casuals with other casuals or the new with the average or how ever PC way you want me to convey my idea, which puts us back to square one. Reporting people for hurting your feelings should not be a thing i'm sorry if i say scrub or your bad that does not warrant a suspension or a mute or anything its a videogame.

 

Maybe give additional loot for helping new players in the raid like ff14 does, Its call FT bonus this way there's some incentive to train the folks who are bad at raiding but outside of that there is no enforcement policy that can control elitism that isn't something out of 1984 or brave new world.

[Greyraven.4258]

> @Genesis.5169 said:

> > @Greyraven.4258 said:

> > It's really a simple solution that arenanet as a company practices in many areas already and that is a zero tolerance for rude and insulting behavior.

> >

> > So it wouldn't be a matter of fixing elitism, but addressing the rude toxic behavior that comes with it...which is more doable I think.

>

> Like like doing forces kicks to votes? That would just force already competent commanders to not pug at all leaving you casuals with other casuals or the new with the average or how ever PC way you want me to convey my idea, which puts us back to square one. Reporting people for hurting your feelings should not be a thing i'm sorry if i say scrub or your bad that does not warrant a suspension or a mute or anything its a videogame.

>

> Maybe give additional loot for helping new players in the raid like ff14 does, Its call FT bonus this way there's some incentive to train the folks who are bad at raiding but outside of that there is no enforcement policy that can control elitism that isn't something out of 1984 or brave new world.

 

Dude.....All I suggested is people making their decisions of who they want to game with without insults, if that is a deal breaker to you maybe you should rethink your life?

[Genesis.5169]

> @Greyraven.4258 said:

> > @Genesis.5169 said:

> > > @Greyraven.4258 said:

> > > It's really a simple solution that arenanet as a company practices in many areas already and that is a zero tolerance for rude and insulting behavior.

> > >

> > > So it wouldn't be a matter of fixing elitism, but addressing the rude toxic behavior that comes with it...which is more doable I think.

> >

> > Like like doing forces kicks to votes? That would just force already competent commanders to not pug at all leaving you casuals with other casuals or the new with the average or how ever PC way you want me to convey my idea, which puts us back to square one. Reporting people for hurting your feelings should not be a thing i'm sorry if i say scrub or your bad that does not warrant a suspension or a mute or anything its a videogame.

> >

> > Maybe give additional loot for helping new players in the raid like ff14 does, Its call FT bonus this way there's some incentive to train the folks who are bad at raiding but outside of that there is no enforcement policy that can control elitism that isn't something out of 1984 or brave new world.

>

> Dude.....All I suggested is people making their decisions of who they want to game with without insults, if that is a deal breaker to you maybe you should rethink your life?

 

Yeah it a deal breaker like the ability to not be censored because of feelings, i'm more of an objective reality kinda guy. Allowing any kinda of salt to compromise gameplay is an automatic no from me, i come from old games like quake ff11 WoW etc, there was no safe space culture either you performed or you didn't and yes sometime you would get trashed but in a competitive setting its supposed to happen.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @Genesis.5169 said:

> > @Greyraven.4258 said:

> > > @Genesis.5169 said:

> > > > @Greyraven.4258 said:

> > > > It's really a simple solution that arenanet as a company practices in many areas already and that is a zero tolerance for rude and insulting behavior.

> > > >

> > > > So it wouldn't be a matter of fixing elitism, but addressing the rude toxic behavior that comes with it...which is more doable I think.

> > >

> > > Like like doing forces kicks to votes? That would just force already competent commanders to not pug at all leaving you casuals with other casuals or the new with the average or how ever PC way you want me to convey my idea, which puts us back to square one. Reporting people for hurting your feelings should not be a thing i'm sorry if i say scrub or your bad that does not warrant a suspension or a mute or anything its a videogame.

> > >

> > > Maybe give additional loot for helping new players in the raid like ff14 does, Its call FT bonus this way there's some incentive to train the folks who are bad at raiding but outside of that there is no enforcement policy that can control elitism that isn't something out of 1984 or brave new world.

> >

> > Dude.....All I suggested is people making their decisions of who they want to game with without insults, if that is a deal breaker to you maybe you should rethink your life?

>

> Yeah it a deal breaker like the ability to not be censored because of feelings, i'm more of an objective reality kinda guy. Allowing any kinda of salt to compromise gameplay is an automatic no from me, i come from old games like quake ff11 WoW etc, there was no safe space culture either you performed or you didn't and yes sometime you would get trashed but in a competitive setting its supposed to happen.

 

Im from ffxi and wow and yet i still don't behave like that. Lack of empathy has what has caused most of these problems with elitism and exclusion. While elitism is ultimately due to a-nets lack of ability to implement alternative options to raiding. It's still humanities fault in general for behaving this way. You might be objective, but im not sure behaving in that way is something to be really proud of... And certainly if you wanted too, you could elevate yourself above it (or maybe not). Just something to think about.

[Greyraven.4258]

> @Genesis.5169 said:

> > @Greyraven.4258 said:

> > > @Genesis.5169 said:

> > > > @Greyraven.4258 said:

> > > > It's really a simple solution that arenanet as a company practices in many areas already and that is a zero tolerance for rude and insulting behavior.

> > > >

> > > > So it wouldn't be a matter of fixing elitism, but addressing the rude toxic behavior that comes with it...which is more doable I think.

> > >

> > > Like like doing forces kicks to votes? That would just force already competent commanders to not pug at all leaving you casuals with other casuals or the new with the average or how ever PC way you want me to convey my idea, which puts us back to square one. Reporting people for hurting your feelings should not be a thing i'm sorry if i say scrub or your bad that does not warrant a suspension or a mute or anything its a videogame.

> > >

> > > Maybe give additional loot for helping new players in the raid like ff14 does, Its call FT bonus this way there's some incentive to train the folks who are bad at raiding but outside of that there is no enforcement policy that can control elitism that isn't something out of 1984 or brave new world.

> >

> > Dude.....All I suggested is people making their decisions of who they want to game with without insults, if that is a deal breaker to you maybe you should rethink your life?

>

> Yeah it a deal breaker like the ability to not be censored because of feelings, i'm more of an objective reality kinda guy. Allowing any kinda of salt to compromise gameplay is an automatic no from me, i come from old games like quake ff11 WoW etc, there was no safe space culture either you performed or you didn't and yes sometime you would get trashed but in a competitive setting its supposed to happen.

 

So unless you can be a jerk to other people you don't want to play....I actually feel pity for you.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @Vulf.3098 said:

> >@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > You could use that arguement against anything, its moot. Wow is screwed becaue theres a power race going on whereas in GW2 the lower dfficulity content would simply open up the content to more people with no side effects on game balancing or hard mode raids. The only people this affects are those that want raids to be exclusive to protect their own interests.

>

>

> Multi tiered raid difficulties have already been proven to not increase the amount of people to join that content. When WoW first added multiple flex difficulties the amount of the population that did that content was still incredibly small. How did they change this? They tied a very large amount of the games story and 100% of your characters late game progression behind it. This was the huge reason why the LFR difficulty became a thing so everyone had a chance to experience the story. They essentially made raids at least one of the difficulties forced upon you if you wanted to continue with character progression.

>

> Gw2's raids have such a small story behind it that it is almost irrelevant and the big reward associated with it is armor with a convenience factor. Raiding in Gw2 is 100% optional and should stay that way. Adding more difficulties does nothing to address the lack of the population that does it.

>

>

 

um no, multi tier raids are a huge success in WOW (hence why they still do it), the problem is that in WOW if a raid doesnt offer a power upgrade then its dead. Wow raiders only care about (1)power then (2) achieves in the main. Fact is 90% of the entire GW population are not interested in the current raid style, but do enjoy more casual instances. Ofc a % of that 90% will start playing raids if they are casual enough, instances with >5 are fun if done right.

 

[Lunateric.3708]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> um no, multi tier raids are a huge success in WOW (hence why they still do it), the problem is that in WOW if a raid doesnt offer a power upgrade then its dead. Wow raiders only care about (1)power then (2) achieves in the main. Fact is 90% of the entire GW population are not interested in the current raid style, but do enjoy more casual instances. Ofc a % of that 90% will start playing raids if they are casual enough, instances with >5 are fun if done right.

 

Comparing this game to WoW is pretty much a flawed-from-the-start argument, raids are a main pillar for that game. Raids here aren't a main pillar and they are not designed to appeal to a majority of players (as per dev posts).

 

[Coulter.2315]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @Vulf.3098 said:

> > >@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > You could use that arguement against anything, its moot. Wow is screwed becaue theres a power race going on whereas in GW2 the lower dfficulity content would simply open up the content to more people with no side effects on game balancing or hard mode raids. The only people this affects are those that want raids to be exclusive to protect their own interests.

> >

> >

> > Multi tiered raid difficulties have already been proven to not increase the amount of people to join that content. When WoW first added multiple flex difficulties the amount of the population that did that content was still incredibly small. How did they change this? They tied a very large amount of the games story and 100% of your characters late game progression behind it. This was the huge reason why the LFR difficulty became a thing so everyone had a chance to experience the story. They essentially made raids at least one of the difficulties forced upon you if you wanted to continue with character progression.

> >

> > Gw2's raids have such a small story behind it that it is almost irrelevant and the big reward associated with it is armor with a convenience factor. Raiding in Gw2 is 100% optional and should stay that way. Adding more difficulties does nothing to address the lack of the population that does it.

> >

> >

>

> in WOW if a raid doesnt offer a power upgrade then its dead.

 

Which would be the case for any easy mode GW2 raid.

 

[Sykper.6583]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> um no, multi tier raids are a huge success in WOW (hence why they still do it), the problem is that in WOW if a raid doesnt offer a power upgrade then its dead. Wow raiders only care about (1)power then (2) achieves in the main. Fact is 90% of the entire GW population are not interested in the current raid style, but do enjoy more casual instances. Ofc a % of that 90% will start playing raids if they are casual enough, instances with >5 are fun if done right.

>

 

From Ghostcrawler, creator of the LFR which enabled 'multiple' difficulties:

 

**I have a lot of regrets about Raid Finder for WoW. I am sure I worked on features that were much, much worse, but that's the first one that came to mind.**

 

**To be clear, the goal of getting more players into raiding is a good one. But the way Raid Finder turned out removed, IMO anyway, a lot of the epicness of what made raiding raiding. I also haven't played WoW in a few years, so it's entirely possible they have solved the problem by now.**

 

Link is:

 

GC later describes his intent:

_"Yeah I expanded a little in that answer. I said that the goal of getting players with less time or willingness to wipe for 3 hours into raiding was a noble goal. Raiding is fun. It's the most epic part of the game IMHO. A lot of storytelling happens in raids and you get to see some great art and interact with famous characters. We definitely spent a lot of dev time on raiding, so getting it accessible to a larger population made sense._

 

_The problem with Raid Finder was that when the content was too tough (meaning easier than normal raiding, but not a cake walk) then people would tend to drop the raid after a wipe or two. You'd get these revolving doors where the raid itself was stuck on a boss but the individuals in the raid had cycled through maybe 100s of players after a few hours. There was no "Okay, boys and girls, let's call it a night," moment that you get from a raid leader in an organized guild. For that matter, there was no leader who could kick problem players, dictate strategy or explain the fights. For most players, Raid Finder was a weirdly silent and anonymous affair._

 

_The altenative was to make the difficulty level so easy that you'd probably steamroll every boss and that's sort of where we ended up, but it meant you weren't really doing a rotation, lots of people were AFK and these famous bosses hit like kittens._

 

_Daelo (Scott Mercer) was the other designer who worked with me on Raid Finder, and if I had to do it all over again, I think I would advocate we try something more like a group builder where a leader would invite (and be able to kick) people. I did a lot of pug raiding over the years, and some of them worked fine, which leads me to believe that model has promise. I *think* WoW has something like that now? Not sure._

 

_I have a lot of faith in those guys. They will eventually figure out a good solution if they haven't already. The original question and answer were both targeting my career as a designer, not an attempt to take a shot at WoW."_

 

GW2's LFG system is the closest to the ideal that Ghostcrawler came up with in terms of accessibility, an easier difficulty only managed to smear the concept of raiding overall, and turned WoW's raiding permanently into a system with random strangers simply doing the easier raid content mindlessly.

 

We see this mindless zerging even now in GW2, the absence of trying to get better in open world which is fine in a way, but I'll never want to run the risk of seeing this in an raid encounter.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @Sykper.6583 said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > um no, multi tier raids are a huge success in WOW (hence why they still do it), the problem is that in WOW if a raid doesnt offer a power upgrade then its dead. Wow raiders only care about (1)power then (2) achieves in the main. Fact is 90% of the entire GW population are not interested in the current raid style, but do enjoy more casual instances. Ofc a % of that 90% will start playing raids if they are casual enough, instances with >5 are fun if done right.

> >

>

> From Ghostcrawler, creator of the LFR which enabled 'multiple' difficulties:

>

> **I have a lot of regrets about Raid Finder for WoW. I am sure I worked on features that were much, much worse, but that's the first one that came to mind.**

>

> **To be clear, the goal of getting more players into raiding is a good one. But the way Raid Finder turned out removed, IMO anyway, a lot of the epicness of what made raiding raiding. I also haven't played WoW in a few years, so it's entirely possible they have solved the problem by now.**

>

> Link is:

>

> GC later describes his intent:

> _"Yeah I expanded a little in that answer. I said that the goal of getting players with less time or willingness to wipe for 3 hours into raiding was a noble goal. Raiding is fun. It's the most epic part of the game IMHO. A lot of storytelling happens in raids and you get to see some great art and interact with famous characters. We definitely spent a lot of dev time on raiding, so getting it accessible to a larger population made sense._

>

> _The problem with Raid Finder was that when the content was too tough (meaning easier than normal raiding, but not a cake walk) then people would tend to drop the raid after a wipe or two. You'd get these revolving doors where the raid itself was stuck on a boss but the individuals in the raid had cycled through maybe 100s of players after a few hours. There was no "Okay, boys and girls, let's call it a night," moment that you get from a raid leader in an organized guild. For that matter, there was no leader who could kick problem players, dictate strategy or explain the fights. For most players, Raid Finder was a weirdly silent and anonymous affair._

>

> _The altenative was to make the difficulty level so easy that you'd probably steamroll every boss and that's sort of where we ended up, but it meant you weren't really doing a rotation, lots of people were AFK and these famous bosses hit like kittens._

>

> _Daelo (Scott Mercer) was the other designer who worked with me on Raid Finder, and if I had to do it all over again, I think I would advocate we try something more like a group builder where a leader would invite (and be able to kick) people. I did a lot of pug raiding over the years, and some of them worked fine, which leads me to believe that model has promise. I *think* WoW has something like that now? Not sure._

>

> _I have a lot of faith in those guys. They will eventually figure out a good solution if they haven't already. The original question and answer were both targeting my career as a designer, not an attempt to take a shot at WoW."_

>

> GW2's LFG system is the closest to the ideal that Ghostcrawler came up with in terms of accessibility, an easier difficulty only managed to smear the concept of raiding overall, and turned WoW's raiding permanently into a system with random strangers simply doing the easier raid content mindlessly.

>

> We see this mindless zerging even now in GW2, the absence of trying to get better in open world which is fine in a way, but I'll never want to run the risk of seeing this in an raid encounter.

 

ghostcrawler recognised the power trap in WOW, a problem that has continually gets worse year after year and pollutes everything - he never solved this problem, because its an unsolvable issue. Despite this multi difficulity level raiding opened up content to the masses even in a soured model like WOW. The ONLY people that are impacted by multiple raiding diffuclity levels are those trying to protect their own interests.

 

Re mindless Zerging, its interesting, raiders are the very players try to resolve and simplify everything to a mindless zerg (stack, burn down etc etc) - its even more obvious in fractals, aka stack and burn speed runs.

[Vulf.3098]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> um no, multi tier raids are a huge success in WOW (hence why they still do it), the problem is that in WOW if a raid doesnt offer a power upgrade then its dead. Wow raiders only care about (1)power then (2) achieves in the main. Fact is 90% of the entire GW population are not interested in the current raid style, but do enjoy more casual instances. Ofc a % of that 90% will start playing raids if they are casual enough, instances with >5 are fun if done right.

 

I wouldn't call forcing players into the content a huge success. Raids stopped being optional content in that game in 2008 if you cared about character progression and story.

 

 

[Shiyo.3578]

> @Kirin.7306 said:

> Raids are what killed the MMO genre. really shocked Anet added them tbh.

 

Agreed.

 

I think they did it so they could basically say "We have raids too!". Every MMO has it, we gotta have it too or we aren't a real MMO!

[Sykper.6583]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> ghostcrawler recognised the power trap in WOW, a problem that has continually gets worse year after year and pollutes everything - he never solved this problem, because its an unsolvable issue. Despite this multi difficulity level raiding opened up content to the masses even in a soured model like WOW. The ONLY people that are impacted by multiple raiding diffuclity levels are those trying to protect their own interests.

>

 

The only people impacted by the multiple raiding difficulties are those whom the mode was made for, **enough said.**

 

Raiding ceased to be raiding in WoW because of adding easier difficulties, that's an objective interpretation of the creator of the LFR's own words. Raiding **was permanently damaged in WoW** to cater to a multitude of players, however as GC said in WoW effectively the main story was bound to raiding specifically, you ended up in PvE raiding in the end to get the full lore picture.

 

This isn't **necessary** in GW2 where Raids so far have been side-stories or non-intrusive to the main plot. We had this discourse a while back on the old forums about why the supposed 'Lazarus' reveal in Stronghold didn't matter in the long run based on how they ended the raid, and that the NPC in Bloodstone Fen explained all the necessarily lore tidbits from the raid for LS3E1...

 

In other words, as long as Raiding continues to deal with side-stories or closing lore holes as part of the NON-GW2 universe, raiding in GW2 will never have a lore reason to introduce easier difficulties.

 

If you want to understand where we are coming from, asking for an easier mode for raiding is no different than a player asking for an equivalent PvP lobby that queues players against bots, because they don't want to fight players yet reap similar rewards. ...And still insist that they are a PvPer.

 

> Re mindless Zerging, its interesting, raiders are the very players try to resolve and simplify everything to a mindless zerg (stack, burn down etc etc) - its even more obvious in fractals, aka stack and burn speed runs.

 

Raiders have a fundamental understanding of the game's combat systems and what the AI is capable of. Zerging as a tactic is effective in many instances, but counter-intuitive for several other important ones. It's why many Raiders in HoT realized this with the metas, or even before that in Tequatl and Triple Trouble and sought to remedy the misinterpretation of Zerging content by dividing responsibilities.

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @Shiyo.3578 said:

> > @Kirin.7306 said:

> > Raids are what killed the MMO genre. really shocked Anet added them tbh.

>

> Agreed.

>

> I think they did it so they could basically say "We have raids too!". Every MMO has it, we gotta have it too or we aren't a real MMO!

 

If this isn't a strawman, i don't know what is.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @Sykper.6583 said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > ghostcrawler recognised the power trap in WOW, a problem that has continually gets worse year after year and pollutes everything - he never solved this problem, because its an unsolvable issue. Despite this multi difficulity level raiding opened up content to the masses even in a soured model like WOW. The ONLY people that are impacted by multiple raiding diffuclity levels are those trying to protect their own interests.

> >

>

> The only people impacted by the multiple raiding difficulties are those whom the mode was made for, **enough said.**

>

> Raiding ceased to be raiding in WoW because of adding easier difficulties, that's an objective interpretation of the creator of the LFR's own words. Raiding **was permanently damaged in WoW** to cater to a multitude of players, however as GC said in WoW effectively the main story was bound to raiding specifically, you ended up in PvE raiding in the end to get the full lore picture.

>

> This isn't **necessary** in GW2 where Raids so far have been side-stories or non-intrusive to the main plot. We had this discourse a while back on the old forums about why the supposed 'Lazarus' reveal in Stronghold didn't matter in the long run based on how they ended the raid, and that the NPC in Bloodstone Fen explained all the necessarily lore tidbits from the raid for LS3E1...

>

> In other words, as long as Raiding continues to deal with side-stories or closing lore holes as part of the NON-GW2 universe, raiding in GW2 will never have a lore reason to introduce easier difficulties.

>

> If you want to understand where we are coming from, asking for an easier mode for raiding is no different than a player asking for an equivalent PvP lobby that queues players against bots, because they don't want to fight players yet reap similar rewards. ...And still insist that they are a PvPer.

>

> > Re mindless Zerging, its interesting, raiders are the very players try to resolve and simplify everything to a mindless zerg (stack, burn down etc etc) - its even more obvious in fractals, aka stack and burn speed runs.

>

> Raiders have a fundamental understanding of the game's combat systems and what the AI is capable of. Zerging as a tactic is effective in many instances, but counter-intuitive for several other important ones. It's why many Raiders in HoT realized this with the metas, or even before that in Tequatl and Triple Trouble and sought to remedy the misinterpretation of Zerging content by dividing responsibilities.

 

I don't want raids to be easier, but I do want players to be more accepting and agreeable about letting unknown players into raid groups. The only solution every mmo has been able to come up with is lower raid difficulty.

 

Honestly I think the easiest compromise would be to get rid of the timers on bosses. This would free up people wanting specific builds (unless its a speed clear group). People would eventually get the kill (or not if they are really bad), and it would reduce a lot of new player scrutiny.

 

It's also in the spirit of GW1 elite area's where they have no timers either. Most people had trouble doing them, but there was no gimmicky timer which pigeon holed people into specific builds/specs unless the group was going for fast clears. This allowed people to set there own difficulty and not be overly inclusive in finding group members.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > @Shiyo.3578 said:

> > > @Kirin.7306 said:

> > > Raids are what killed the MMO genre. really shocked Anet added them tbh.

> >

> > Agreed.

> >

> > I think they did it so they could basically say "We have raids too!". Every MMO has it, we gotta have it too or we aren't a real MMO!

>

> If this isn't a strawman, i don't know what is.

 

only he's right, they added raids with one speed and said ok there, were done. We won't touch them again, and if other people want any options for these raids.. oh well...

its like its raids that are unsupported and half implemented compared to most other mmo's on the market.

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > > @Shiyo.3578 said:

> > > > @Kirin.7306 said:

> > > > Raids are what killed the MMO genre. really shocked Anet added them tbh.

> > >

> > > Agreed.

> > >

> > > I think they did it so they could basically say "We have raids too!". Every MMO has it, we gotta have it too or we aren't a real MMO!

> >

> > If this isn't a strawman, i don't know what is.

>

> only he's right, they added raids with one speed and said ok there, were done. We won't touch them again, and if other people want any options for these raids.. oh well...

> its like its raids that are unsupported and half implemented compared to most other mmo's on the market.

 

Except he's not. He said raids were added because they were in every other MMO and the devs felt that this game needed them to be a real MMO. No where have the devs stated or implied this, so he is flat out lying.

 

As for raids being unsupported. I doubt you raid in other MMO's, because the QoL for GW2 raids is pretty high compared to most games.

 

"Half implemented' doesn't mean "implemented in a way i don't like'. You are implying the devs meant for there to be more implementation or that there needs to be, which is just false. I'm starting to think you are indeed a troll, or just full of terrible logic, because this is pathetic.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > > > @Shiyo.3578 said:

> > > > > @Kirin.7306 said:

> > > > > Raids are what killed the MMO genre. really shocked Anet added them tbh.

> > > >

> > > > Agreed.

> > > >

> > > > I think they did it so they could basically say "We have raids too!". Every MMO has it, we gotta have it too or we aren't a real MMO!

> > >

> > > If this isn't a strawman, i don't know what is.

> >

> > only he's right, they added raids with one speed and said ok there, were done. We won't touch them again, and if other people want any options for these raids.. oh well...

> > its like its raids that are unsupported and half implemented compared to most other mmo's on the market.

>

> Except he's not. He said raids were added because they were in every other MMO and the devs felt that this game needed them to be a real MMO. No where have the devs stated or implied this, so he is flat out lying.

>

> As for raids being unsupported. I doubt you raid in other MMO's, because the QoL for GW2 raids is pretty high compared to most games.

>

> "Half implemented' doesn't mean "implemented in a way i don't like'. You are implying the devs meant for there to be more implementation or that there needs to be, which is just false. I'm starting to think you are indeed a troll, or just full of terrible logic, because this is pathetic.

 

wow you definitely like to take everything very literally.... They didn't state it anywhere so yes technically you're right its not true, but based on there actions it can easily be implied.

 

also I've raided in ffxi from 2001-2003, and wow from 2004-2011, ffxiv 2014-2016

 

when you compare gw2 features and alternatives to grouping and raid difficulty to other mmo's.. Gw2's raiding options are non existent, so yes in that regard they are kind of half-implemented, compared to other mmo's features.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

 

> > @Felipe.1807 said:

> > Dont think Etilism is something you kind fix...this is the playerbase fault and not Anet...it existed before with dungeons, the only diferrence is that all you needed was zerker armor set and would be good to go...kind of funny since(I guess) raids were made for the anti zerker meta people, the ones that wish to play their cleric guardians and other nonsense, but now the same people who made the zerker meta mentality are the sames that push this new meta, if you dont play "x" profession with the "y" build you are out, and once again the casual players are left behind...and now its kind of even worse since people use 3 party programs to check dps and kitten, so if you arent doing "z%" of damage just wait a little cause the squad kick is incoming.

> > In my opinion Raids were the worst mistake that Anet ever made...not only killed the competive scene of WvW and sPvP, since elite specs were made OP so they could face the raids encounters, but it also killed the "play how you want"...back on the old dungeons you could run a group with whatever kind of builds, if you had the skills and allready knew the encounters(everyone did, years without any new content or updates) you would face no trouble...now for raids, you need a tank, you need a support, you need a healer, etc, and those used to be the things that Anet was totally against it...it kind of sucks to see what this game used to be, and what it is now.

>

> I disagree the wvw or the spvp people were going to leave anyways anets PC snowflake culture really ticks alot of people who pvp, this is why we have so many people complaining about losers getting rewards in pvp destroying its integrity. I don't know how raids destroyed game if raids in themself in the game exist in a vacuum next to the rest of the content you can get full ascended gear with out raiding. You don't need to raid for anything what so ever. Please do not try to gut content out of the game because you can't clear it.

>

 

Raids have completely effected WvW/PvP and here's how.

 

The biggest reason are resources. It shows that they don't have enough money/resources to have a dedicated team large enough to regularly update/balance/fix issues going on with these other game modes. As such, they choose to put their resources into raids/fractals. WvW hasn't had a large update since HoT. We've gotten small, incremental updates over the years, but they've been things we've been asking for for years, so, not that big of a deal. We appreciate them, really, we do, but compared with the work and effort that goes into raiding, there's no comparison. Just think about how much time and effort goes into making a new wing, with story, voice acting, new maps that need to have mechanics involved, bosses with new mechanics and programming to do all that new rewards like weapon skins. But PvP didn't get a new map, that requires no or little programming if there's some mechanic to it. They got 2 with HoT that were essentially betas and have only recently come into the ranked rotation.

 

Class balance is the other big impact. I'd say about half the class balance is centered around raiding. Go through the patch notes. How many times have we seen x profession is under-preforming when compared to others so we're buffing it to be more in line. This is to try to normalize dps numbers. Whether you agree or not, this contributes to power creep which has a big impact on WvW/PvP. Also, things like banners, ranger spirit pets, and many skills effect 10 people. There's very little in the way of balance towards dominant classes in WvW/PvP let alone a separation in the game modes.

 

I hear from so many players that are just fed up and leaving these other game modes. IMO, they are just neglecting them to force people out so they can just continue to focus on PvE. It's a vicious cycle. People leave, so why should they put more effort into a game mode where people are leaving? That's a waste of resources. That's how raids are effecting them.

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > > > > @Shiyo.3578 said:

> > > > > > @Kirin.7306 said:

> > > > > > Raids are what killed the MMO genre. really shocked Anet added them tbh.

> > > > >

> > > > > Agreed.

> > > > >

> > > > > I think they did it so they could basically say "We have raids too!". Every MMO has it, we gotta have it too or we aren't a real MMO!

> > > >

> > > > If this isn't a strawman, i don't know what is.

> > >

> > > only he's right, they added raids with one speed and said ok there, were done. We won't touch them again, and if other people want any options for these raids.. oh well...

> > > its like its raids that are unsupported and half implemented compared to most other mmo's on the market.

> >

> > Except he's not. He said raids were added because they were in every other MMO and the devs felt that this game needed them to be a real MMO. No where have the devs stated or implied this, so he is flat out lying.

> >

> > As for raids being unsupported. I doubt you raid in other MMO's, because the QoL for GW2 raids is pretty high compared to most games.

> >

> > "Half implemented' doesn't mean "implemented in a way i don't like'. You are implying the devs meant for there to be more implementation or that there needs to be, which is just false. I'm starting to think you are indeed a troll, or just full of terrible logic, because this is pathetic.

>

> wow you definitely like to take everything very literally.... They didn't state it anywhere so yes technically you're right its not true, but based on there actions it can easily be implied.

>

> also I've raided in ffxi from 2001-2003, and wow from 2003-2011

 

So 2 mmo's out of hundreds. I have about 200 MMO's under my belt, and have reached endgame in all of them. You are basically saying all you have played is MMO's with raid finders, and have no experience actually talking to people.

 

And yes I'm taking it literally. if you don't mean what you say then why say it? This is a forum, not a friendly chat, and I'm not here to reassure you or coddle you.

 

If they didn't state it anywhere, then his statement is a lie and pure conjecture, and shall be dismissed as such. End of story.

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

>

> > > @Felipe.1807 said:

> > > Dont think Etilism is something you kind fix...this is the playerbase fault and not Anet...it existed before with dungeons, the only diferrence is that all you needed was zerker armor set and would be good to go...kind of funny since(I guess) raids were made for the anti zerker meta people, the ones that wish to play their cleric guardians and other nonsense, but now the same people who made the zerker meta mentality are the sames that push this new meta, if you dont play "x" profession with the "y" build you are out, and once again the casual players are left behind...and now its kind of even worse since people use 3 party programs to check dps and kitten, so if you arent doing "z%" of damage just wait a little cause the squad kick is incoming.

> > > In my opinion Raids were the worst mistake that Anet ever made...not only killed the competive scene of WvW and sPvP, since elite specs were made OP so they could face the raids encounters, but it also killed the "play how you want"...back on the old dungeons you could run a group with whatever kind of builds, if you had the skills and allready knew the encounters(everyone did, years without any new content or updates) you would face no trouble...now for raids, you need a tank, you need a support, you need a healer, etc, and those used to be the things that Anet was totally against it...it kind of sucks to see what this game used to be, and what it is now.

> >

> > I disagree the wvw or the spvp people were going to leave anyways anets PC snowflake culture really ticks alot of people who pvp, this is why we have so many people complaining about losers getting rewards in pvp destroying its integrity. I don't know how raids destroyed game if raids in themself in the game exist in a vacuum next to the rest of the content you can get full ascended gear with out raiding. You don't need to raid for anything what so ever. Please do not try to gut content out of the game because you can't clear it.

> >

>

> Raids have completely effected WvW/PvP and here's how.

>

> The biggest reason are resources. It shows that they don't have enough money/resources to have a dedicated team large enough to regularly update/balance/fix issues going on with these other game modes. As such, they choose to put their resources into raids/fractals. WvW hasn't had a large update since HoT. We've gotten small, incremental updates over the years, but they've been things we've been asking for for years, so, not that big of a deal. We appreciate them, really, we do, but compared with the work and effort that goes into raiding, there's no comparison. Just think about how much time and effort goes into making a new wing, with story, voice acting, new maps that need to have mechanics involved, bosses with new mechanics and programming to do all that new rewards like weapon skins. But PvP didn't get a new map, that requires no or little programming if there's some mechanic to it. They got 2 with HoT that were essentially betas and have only recently come into the ranked rotation.

>

> Class balance is the other big impact. I'd say about half the class balance is centered around raiding. Go through the patch notes. How many times have we seen x profession is under-preforming when compared to others so we're buffing it to be more in line. This is to try to normalize dps numbers. Whether you agree or not, this contributes to power creep which has a big impact on WvW/PvP. Also, things like banners, ranger spirit pets, and many skills effect 10 people. There's very little in the way of balance towards dominant classes in WvW/PvP let alone a separation in the game modes.

>

> I hear from so many players that are just fed up and leaving these other game modes. IMO, they are just neglecting them to force people out so they can just continue to focus on PvE. It's a vicious cycle. People leave, so why should they put more effort into a game mode where people are leaving? That's a waste of resources. That's how raids are effecting them.

 

Except for the fact some things about classes have been gutted due to pvp/wvw.

 

Raids have nothing to do with Anets lack of support of pvp/wvw. And yes dps numbers should be normalized.

 

Or do you wanna go back to a state where certain classes are clearly out performing other in everyway? -cough- ele -cough-

 

Are you saying you would be perfectly fine with prebuff condi guardian or condi rev? What about power engineer? It's mostly due to pve that these builds were buffed to be viable. I never saw the wvw community rallying to buff power necro, or power mesmer. In fact, all i ever see in wvw is nerf necro/theif threads.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > > > > > @Shiyo.3578 said:

> > > > > > > @Kirin.7306 said:

> > > > > > > Raids are what killed the MMO genre. really shocked Anet added them tbh.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Agreed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think they did it so they could basically say "We have raids too!". Every MMO has it, we gotta have it too or we aren't a real MMO!

> > > > >

> > > > > If this isn't a strawman, i don't know what is.

> > > >

> > > > only he's right, they added raids with one speed and said ok there, were done. We won't touch them again, and if other people want any options for these raids.. oh well...

> > > > its like its raids that are unsupported and half implemented compared to most other mmo's on the market.

> > >

> > > Except he's not. He said raids were added because they were in every other MMO and the devs felt that this game needed them to be a real MMO. No where have the devs stated or implied this, so he is flat out lying.

> > >

> > > As for raids being unsupported. I doubt you raid in other MMO's, because the QoL for GW2 raids is pretty high compared to most games.

> > >

> > > "Half implemented' doesn't mean "implemented in a way i don't like'. You are implying the devs meant for there to be more implementation or that there needs to be, which is just false. I'm starting to think you are indeed a troll, or just full of terrible logic, because this is pathetic.

> >

> > wow you definitely like to take everything very literally.... They didn't state it anywhere so yes technically you're right its not true, but based on there actions it can easily be implied.

> >

> > also I've raided in ffxi from 2001-2003, and wow from 2003-2011

>

> So 2 mmo's out of hundreds. I have about 200 MMO's under my belt, and have reached endgame in all of them. You are basically saying all you have played is MMO's with raid finders, and have no experience actually talking to people.

>

> And yes I'm taking it literally. if you don't mean what you say then why say it? This is a forum, not a friendly chat, and I'm not here to reassure you or coddle you.

>

> If they didn't state it anywhere, then his statement is a lie and pure conjecture, and shall be dismissed as such. End of story.

 

ffxi didn't have raid finders at all and neither did wow until 2011. SO again your just assuming things about me and your wrong. You've played tons of mmo's then how come you don't know that those games didn't have raid finders when i played them? I've also played more mmo's then ive listed on here, but just not for any extended period of time.

 

Also you don't need to take everything literally, you can read between the lines can't you? Get the gist of it. Winning a fact checking battle dosen't make others posters points invalid just so you know. Frankly you nitpicking details, makes me dismiss you as such, since your not making a point, your just trying to tear down others posts without contributing anything.

 

I also don't know why you care, since you already do all the raids no problem, so this problem dosen't concern/affect you really.

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > > > > > > @Shiyo.3578 said:

> > > > > > > > @Kirin.7306 said:

> > > > > > > > Raids are what killed the MMO genre. really shocked Anet added them tbh.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Agreed.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think they did it so they could basically say "We have raids too!". Every MMO has it, we gotta have it too or we aren't a real MMO!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If this isn't a strawman, i don't know what is.

> > > > >

> > > > > only he's right, they added raids with one speed and said ok there, were done. We won't touch them again, and if other people want any options for these raids.. oh well...

> > > > > its like its raids that are unsupported and half implemented compared to most other mmo's on the market.

> > > >

> > > > Except he's not. He said raids were added because they were in every other MMO and the devs felt that this game needed them to be a real MMO. No where have the devs stated or implied this, so he is flat out lying.

> > > >

> > > > As for raids being unsupported. I doubt you raid in other MMO's, because the QoL for GW2 raids is pretty high compared to most games.

> > > >

> > > > "Half implemented' doesn't mean "implemented in a way i don't like'. You are implying the devs meant for there to be more implementation or that there needs to be, which is just false. I'm starting to think you are indeed a troll, or just full of terrible logic, because this is pathetic.

> > >

> > > wow you definitely like to take everything very literally.... They didn't state it anywhere so yes technically you're right its not true, but based on there actions it can easily be implied.

> > >

> > > also I've raided in ffxi from 2001-2003, and wow from 2003-2011

> >

> > So 2 mmo's out of hundreds. I have about 200 MMO's under my belt, and have reached endgame in all of them. You are basically saying all you have played is MMO's with raid finders, and have no experience actually talking to people.

> >

> > And yes I'm taking it literally. if you don't mean what you say then why say it? This is a forum, not a friendly chat, and I'm not here to reassure you or coddle you.

> >

> > If they didn't state it anywhere, then his statement is a lie and pure conjecture, and shall be dismissed as such. End of story.

>

> ffxi didn't have raid finders at all and neither did wow until 2009. SO again your just assuming things about me and your wrong. You've played tons of mmo's then how come you don't know that those games didn't have raid finders when i played them? I've also played more mmo's then ive listed on here, but just not for any extended period of time.

>

> Also you don't need to take everything literally, you can read between the lines can't you? Get the gist of it. Winning a fact checking battle dosen't make others posters points invalid just so you know

 

Actually it does make it invalid, because it makes you wrong.

 

"The facts dont matter except when i say they do."

 

Tons still isn't 200 and a lot of those games still, like i said, didn't have raid finders. It's funny you slam anet for not having something that you think a lot of MMO's have, but then slam them for adding that a lot of MMO's do. Irony much?

 

I don't have to read between the lines when your comments are shallow and vapid. There is nothing to infer.

[Vulf.3098]

What is funny is that raid finder wasn't added to wow until 2011.