DeceiverX.8361 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 You can't fix elitism and enforcement of a meta when the encounter design is so simplistic and prohibitive towards exploration of different approaches to beat the content - AKA, making it more "casual." The entire premise of raids is elitism and optimization. Thus the reasoning behind its initial backlash, and why GW2 launched explicitly without that type of content. This is a player problem that pretty much cannot be fixed on ANet's end unless they totally change their approach to how raiding works and how they handle encounters and professions' abilities in the game throughout with a major profession overhaul to exhaust the stack-and-attack (or whatever encounter-specific approach needs to performed) meta that's clearly just an optimized play of playing, and has been for a while. You're kidding yourself if you think they can just whip up a magic fix. Dungeons had the same issue. It's a community-driven problem because a majority of interested players are doing the content not for the joy of doing the content, but instead is doing it for the purpose of the reward, and thus, they optimize. It's a problem without a solution, or at least one which not everyone would be happy about, unless ANet does a huge amount of work and revamps a lot of game content. Not that I don't think they could - quite the contrary - it's just they're unwilling to allocate major resources into fixing existing game content, and would rather instead just keep pumping out more short-term new content trying to bring in new players, despite the game churning quickly. Q2 2018 financial reports will probably not bode very well for ANet based on current trends of boxed expansion sales - which in Q1 will probably be reported as being far too low. So expect this to keep happening for them to try and keep making a quick buck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulf.3098 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > I see then the next argument: "but we shouldn't compare GW2 to other games". Yes, we totally should. It doesn't exist in a vacuum, there's competition, and there are clearly games with an edge on a lot of stuff, and ANet has a very, very large dev team compared to the industry standards, yet, they fail to deliver something that has become a basic feature of the genre and that is also done by much smaller teams with much smaller budgets. I don't know what they spend all this money on, but clearly, it's not on content or development if they can't make what every single other game has been doing for years. You can't compare raiding in other mmo's to gw2 because the story and end game progression isn't tied to it. I came back to this game 4 months ago and I only saw one other thread about this and it was on Reddit which got a ton of downvotes. Elitism is a problem in every online game but over the years I feel the Entitlement from a lot of people has got way worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted November 27, 2017 Author Share Posted November 27, 2017 > @Vulf.3098 said: > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > I see then the next argument: "but we shouldn't compare GW2 to other games". Yes, we totally should. It doesn't exist in a vacuum, there's competition, and there are clearly games with an edge on a lot of stuff, and ANet has a very, very large dev team compared to the industry standards, yet, they fail to deliver something that has become a basic feature of the genre and that is also done by much smaller teams with much smaller budgets. I don't know what they spend all this money on, but clearly, it's not on content or development if they can't make what every single other game has been doing for years. > > You can't compare raiding in other mmo's to gw2 because the story and end game progression isn't tied to it. > > I came back to this game 4 months ago and I only saw one other thread about this and it was on Reddit which got a ton of downvotes. Elitism is a problem in every online game but over the years I feel the Entitlement from a lot of people has got way worse. > > Yes you can compare it, it's the same type of content. Just because the rewards are different doesn't mean it isn't the same thing lol. You also used all the buzzwords like entitlement. Sorry asking for options to raids that are a year old is more then reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raikidd.5803 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Most raid bosses are not hard or impossible to beat by less experienced people with not meta builds, just look at the enrage timers(or group comps in the first week of spirit vale), the 1% groups kill the bosses in 1/4 of their enrage timer. The problem is that the casual crowd is to scared to lead a group or to theorycraft builds that work for them, they rely on the hardcore people to lead and teach them. Like-minded people need to group up with others like them, you can't expect a casual guy to work great in a hardcore group(with hardcore requirments) and that is way **guild exist**, you don't need to use lfg to raid just make a group/guild with like-minded casual people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loop.8106 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Improvise. Adapt. Overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > @Kingkiller.9645 said: > > > > @Shirlias.8104 said: > > > > Let's assume that 10% of GW2 players completed raids, though it won't be the truth. > > > > Then we do have 90% players who didn't. > > > > > > > > Let's assume also that 90% players complain about the fact that 10% players tend to be elitists. > > > > Even if so, you with the 90% of GW2 are allowed to play together, make your own team, and clear the raid however you want. > > > > > > > > But here's the bitter truth. > > > > Players which are part of this 90% group have no idea how to play content. > > > > They don't try to set up a party, and sometimes they don't read guides or watch videos in order to learn the strategy. > > > > > > > > The problems are not the elitists, but those who put blame on them. > > > > Nobody want to carry em, and they don't want to make an effort in order to create a party and make a try with it. > > > > > > There are three core reasons why I do not play raids. > > > 1. Nobody wants you in their group. Introductory raid guilds do not raid very often - once a week at a specific time. I have not found any who raid more often than perhaps twice a week. > > > 2. Elitism. Yes, you can find people who aren't elitist, but finding someone who is willing to raid, willing to learn, willing to play with newer people, and won't start screaming or just leave the moment someone dies is extremely difficult. And you need to find 9 of them. > > > 3. I don't feel the need to raid. > > > > > > You should not have to look up a guide to figure out how to kill a raid. > > > Even if you did, there are tons of people out there who are 100% capable of doing so. > > > They choose not to because of the content. Not their inability to play that content, but the attitude in the community, the fact that even if they run one or two or three raids with people who are willing to learn and teach new raiders, they will eventually run with the elitists. Some people do not because they are not interested in the rewards. Others do not because it is simply not their style of play. Just because someone doesn't raid doesn't mean they are unable to do so. > > > > > > The very fact that you are saying that elitism isn't the problem IS in itself elitism. You are blaming people who feel excluded and cut out by an already established raiding community. You make the very blatantly false claim that a vast majority of players do not know how to play the game. > > > They do. > > > They choose not to because if they enter a raid, they will be greeted with "you are not one of the 10%, so you must be kitten terrible at the game". It's an automatic judgement that simply because these players have never played a raid and never even attempted it, it must mean that they are bad. > > > And it is exactly what you have said in your comment. > > > > > > There are exactly two reasons why I would ever attempt a raid. The first one is exploring the raid areas - getting them revealed on my map. I have already done this thanks to someone getting me into some cleared raid areas. > > > The second reason is to unlock the raids mastery line, once I get back to HoT maps and finish the other lines. > > > For no other reasons would I even consider a raid. I have no interest in them. Not because I can't, but because it is an aspect of the game that I have no desire to be a part of. Every time raids are discussed, elitism is a key aspect of the conversation. Even if no accusations of elitism are made, elitists themselves are abundant and they make themselves heard. "Only a small fraction of players are capable of doing raids, the content is too hard for everyone else." > > > Elitism has no real grounding. Everyone is capable of doing them. Most are simply not interested in doing so. The only reason elitism exists is because they are called "raids", and because they are significantly more difficult to start playing than to play with an already established group and experience. > > > > Lots of what you (and some others) are saying is basically making a generality out of some bad apples. There are definitely bad apples, pretty much like everywhere else, but you choose to focus on that rather than trying to understand why the raid community is structured the way it is. > > > > Nothing about this is personal, it's not even about being good or bad. Raids are made to be challenging content and such require commitment, and if you're not willing to do the first few steps (already made a LOT easier these days), if you're not willing to adapt your build, try other classes, devote some money and time into getting proper gear, if you don't get the thrill excitement of getting your first kill after having spent hours with your buddies figuring out how to get better at it, if all you care about is having more experienced players do the work for you, then you don't understand the philosophy behind end game content such as raids. > > Raid content is made to be expensive for you wallet, it's made to challenge the way you play, it's made to force you into organized groups where strategy is key. It's made for people who are COMMITTED to it... And it's all of that that is asked by the raiding community. > > You can claim to be good all you want, but that's not what it's about, it's never been what it's about. Once again, lots of people in pvp claim they're good and their team is so bad, we all know how much these claims are worth. > > > > Don't agree with it? You are free to try anyway, free to say I don't care about your rules and I'm gonna do it my way and make my group free of Elitism™, free to not give a kitten about meta builds because they're useless, free to accept anyone in your group because it's Right. Please do it, and spend the next few hours, or days, trying to get your kills. And you know what? Maybe you'll realize that it's the path a LOT of now experienced raiders went through before eventually figuring out there were some untold rules for a reason. And that after going through all these hours figuring out a fights, they'd rather do it from now on only with people who went through the same thing. > > > > I sincerely WISH some people would actually think of that, of what the word "experienced" means before automatically blaming the raiding community as a whole. It's a small part of content made to be that way, it follows a kind of "dark souls" philosophy that some of us love. > > I don't like farming, I don't like brain easy bosses, I like the thrill of raids, and I'm tired of constantly seeing people who already get to cause story nerfs, meta nerfs, blaming dps meters for everything, come here now and call us "elitists" just for liking a certain philosophy of what gaming also is (and used to be) > > > > > > I'm sorry, but just like you don't feel the need to learn by yourself, a "experienced raider" also doesn't have to teach newer people. You can always nicely ask to be carried to get the kills, faster - and there are many groups that will take new players in - but by no way is it "the job" of the experienced raiders to help you get there. If they want quick kills for whatever reason, it's their own right, just like it's your right to ask for help, but the rhetoric "they're elitists" for doing things these ways is just double standard. > > If you run with groups that asked for experienced players and you're not experienced in the first place. Yes you will run into that issue, and rightfully so, you ARE the one being rude by lying about your experience and having 9 other people waste their time on you. Once again, you don't have the high grounds because you want to learn, other people don't have to be your teachers, and especially if you don't ask and try to force your way in, they have no reason to be nice with you. > > This is not only true for raids, but also dungeons, fractals, pvp, and pretty much anything. > > > > Seriously, enough with this cheap excuse that raids are for elitists only. > > > > > > > @Kingkiller.9645 said: > > > You should not have to look up a guide to figure out how to kill a raid. > > Yes, you should definitely look up a guide for optional end game content. Or if you don't, be prepared to spend hours and hours figuring out fights just like lots of first hour raiders did. > > This simple sentence reflects everything wrong with your (and some others here) claim. > > You can say that you don't want players currently learning, but it's the designer's job to have you teach them. There can be incentives or inconveniences for not doing so. A lot of games do that. GW2 is no different, in many scenarios, not having inexperienced players joining you is very inconvenient and definitely not trivial, including for not so easy content such as fractals and dungeons. So far it works and nobody complains about it. Fractals are the main content made to prepare you for raids. The latest fractals and especially the last CM is just as hard as many raid bosses. There is already content in place for teaching. Now having a "easy raid" mode would be possible, but this thread is about "elitism" and a easy mode won't fix it, you will always have people to ask for experienced "non easy" mode. And it's their right to do so. It also doesn't help when every bit of semi challenging content is constantly nerfed. There has been attempts of teaching mechanics throughout the main content of the game, and there's always people to tell you "I shouldn't have to change my build". Ex: Eater of Soul. > @Raikidd.5803 said: > Most raid bosses are not hard or impossible to beat by less experienced people with not meta builds, just look at the enrage timers(or group comps in the first week of spirit vale), the 1% groups kill the bosses in 1/4 of their enrage timer. The problem is that the casual crowd is to scared to lead a group or to theorycraft builds that work for them, they rely on the hardcore people to lead and teach them. Like-minded people need to group up with others like them, you can't expect a casual guy to work great in a hardcore group(with hardcore requirments) and that is way **guild exist**, you don't need to use lfg to raid just make a group/guild with like-minded casual people. > Yeah, there's even an add in the first page (as of right now) for raid learning. Doesn't take hours to get in touch with people willing to train. I suspect a lack of motivation to commit to it, aka consider changing builds, tweaking gear, watching videos, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > Sorry you don't get in rank 7 in NA guild in wow if ur trash, u also don't get 2X legend in spvp if ur trash, and yet raiders are still skeptical about skill with feats I can easily prove but claim on some technicality that I might not be considered good in some universe, somewhere, this is exactly my point and the point of this thread. > > > > I don't know how many times I have to repeat it, being rank 7 in WoW and getting 2x legend in pvp proves absolutely nothing about your skill in Raids. I even gave you, more than once, the example of fractal 100 and fractal 100 CM, which is the EXACT same instance, only with different/altered mechanics. Yet you cannot prove how good you are in Fractal 100 CM, no matter how many times you finish Fractal 100. It means absolutely nothing. > > If such similar content means nothing, then it's obvious that being good in other games also means nothing. And there is nothing for Anet to do here. So far i've seen 10 groups looking for raids for the new wing 5, demanding that players who join have at least 100+ LI. I don't get it, if its content that they have never done, how would any of those LI help them to do this new content in any way, since its totally different content and those LI mean nothing about their skill level for the new raids. Unless your point is totally untrue and having similar experience does count and other raiders obviously agree with me and its expected. So anet should look at this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking.8720 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 GW2 is a casual game, waste so much resource on raid was a bad idea, not to say lock skins behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyrebon.9715 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 > @Slowpokeking.8720 said: > GW2 is a casual game, waste so much resource on raid was a bad idea, not to say lock skins behind it. Why's it a bad thing to want to attract more types of gamers and retain their interest? They haven't locked skins behind it except for legendary armor, which you can access through PvP and WvW. And if you're a casual PvE player why are you going to need stat and rune swappable gear? You're not being forced into raids, but they are easier than a lot of MMOs out there and easy to get into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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