Veprovina.4876 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > @Veprovina.4876 said: > > "Pro" player? As in professional player? :lol: > > > > Seriously, don't enforce the already bad elitism surrounding raids. By putting raiders on such a high pedestal you're enforcing the notion that they are better than everyone else who doesn't raid making the already unwelcoming raids even less accessible to people who would want to raid but are getting booted out of raids for not having killed X amount of bosses or being told they suck and that they would never be accepted into groups because they play the class that's not meta. > > > > Anet needs to get rid of the meta, that's how you fix raids. There will still be elitist players, but like they are in fractals now, way less, and only for speedruns. > > Maybe not just " pro " player it's about all of us . We got a motivation to help player which couldn't find a group to kill the boss instead of " He got no exp , should kick him immediately " . Look, i'm all for helping players but what you described as a means to get the experienced (let's not call them pro, they aren't) players to help new ones seems super exploitable and would end up beimg a giant circle jerk between raiders static groups, alt characters and alt accounts, no one new would be able to penetrate the enourmous wall that already exists for raids and experienced players would have even less incentive to help new ones when they can just help themselves double now. Anet needs to make raid encounters work for all classes and compositions in order for people to be willing to help and for others to even consider raiding. Especially since there is no trinity in GW2 so since each class can be different things and has different mechanics, the only reasonable thing to do is make the raids intelligently scale and change their mechanics to suit whatever composition of classes enters the raid. And that's a hell of a lot of work. In the meantime qtfy and the like are making a fortune selling raids for 100g a boss by preventing any non meta build from entering raids and learning encounters. Yeah i know there are teaching guilds but we all know what they teach. Qtfy meta or gtfo. Giving them rewards won't make them more helpful it would only make them obscenely rich. The raids themselves aren't exactly the problem. The problem is the elitist mentality of the players who do raids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @Veprovina.4876 said: > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > @Veprovina.4876 said: > > > "Pro" player? As in professional player? :lol: > > > > > > Seriously, don't enforce the already bad elitism surrounding raids. By putting raiders on such a high pedestal you're enforcing the notion that they are better than everyone else who doesn't raid making the already unwelcoming raids even less accessible to people who would want to raid but are getting booted out of raids for not having killed X amount of bosses or being told they suck and that they would never be accepted into groups because they play the class that's not meta. > > > > > > Anet needs to get rid of the meta, that's how you fix raids. There will still be elitist players, but like they are in fractals now, way less, and only for speedruns. > > > > Maybe not just " pro " player it's about all of us . We got a motivation to help player which couldn't find a group to kill the boss instead of " He got no exp , should kick him immediately " . > In the meantime qtfy and the like are making a fortune selling raids for 100g a boss by preventing any non meta build from entering raids and learning encounters. Yeah i know there are teaching guilds but we all know what they teach. Qtfy meta or gtfo. Right, qtfy is making tons of gold and snow crows is out to get you. I've probably helped and introduced more players to raids than you have on your friends list. The only thing ever required was motivation and eagerness to learn. Since the dedicated roles were usually covered by experienced players all new players had to do is care for mechanics and provide a minimal amount of dps with which ever build they wanted. When asking for advice they'd get explanations as to why certain builds are run or given easier non meta alternatives if they were struggling with a very difficult meta build (hello staff weaver). You have a very biased, uninformed view mixed with quite a bit of spite and envy there. Quite astonishing actually for someone who probably has never set foot in a raid yet to have this vast amount of information about so many players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > Sounds exploitable to an insane level. > > How ? After first kill and get full reward , re-play just give you magnetic shard . Either the reward is significant enough to move people (in which case it would get exploited like there's no tomorrow), or it isn't, in which case it won't have any actual impact on willingness to help newbies. Personally, i think that no such "help reward" mechanic should be introduced. Better effects might be attained by simply increasing the repeat reward so it can at least cover the food and utility consumable cost. So more experienced players, when helping with training runs, won't have to do that at a cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veprovina.4876 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > @Veprovina.4876 said: > > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > > @Veprovina.4876 said: > > > > "Pro" player? As in professional player? :lol: > > > > > > > > Seriously, don't enforce the already bad elitism surrounding raids. By putting raiders on such a high pedestal you're enforcing the notion that they are better than everyone else who doesn't raid making the already unwelcoming raids even less accessible to people who would want to raid but are getting booted out of raids for not having killed X amount of bosses or being told they suck and that they would never be accepted into groups because they play the class that's not meta. > > > > > > > > Anet needs to get rid of the meta, that's how you fix raids. There will still be elitist players, but like they are in fractals now, way less, and only for speedruns. > > > > > > Maybe not just " pro " player it's about all of us . We got a motivation to help player which couldn't find a group to kill the boss instead of " He got no exp , should kick him immediately " . > > In the meantime qtfy and the like are making a fortune selling raids for 100g a boss by preventing any non meta build from entering raids and learning encounters. Yeah i know there are teaching guilds but we all know what they teach. Qtfy meta or gtfo. > > Right, qtfy is making tons of gold and snow crows is out to get you. > > I've probably helped and introduced more players to raids than you have on your friends list. The only thing ever required was motivation and eagerness to learn. Since the dedicated roles were usually covered by experienced players all new players had to do is care for mechanics and provide a minimal amount of dps with which ever build they wanted. When asking for advice they'd get explanations as to why certain builds are run or given easier non meta alternatives if they were struggling with a very difficult meta build (hello staff weaver). > > You have a very biased, uninformed view mixed with quite a bit of spite and envy there. Quite astonishing actually for someone who probably has never set foot in a raid yet to have this vast amount of information about so many players. > > Dont take everything someone says on a forum as absolute extreme. I know written forum text isn't quite a good medium for subtlety and nuance. I'm not envious, i honestly don't care about raids (i thought about doing them but i just don't habe the time so whatever) but the raid memtality and the "meta craze" is starting to spill into other aspects of the PvE. It's kind of ruining the fun for a lot of people. Yes, obviously qtfy don't have a monopoly on raids. But making meta builds so extrlemely essential to raiding prevents all other builds and prefessions from participating. Why are there not 5 different builds for every profession on that site or simmilar ines (i know qtfy isn't the only one but it's most popular so i use it as an example). Just the very existance of that site, the dps meters and the meta is indication on how flawed the whole situation is. Also, everyone is somehow ok with selling raids, even anet so great. That's not shady at all. If you're all ok with that, fine, but don't pretend everyone is a saint because they're not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @Veprovina.4876 said: > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > @Veprovina.4876 said: > > > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > > > @Veprovina.4876 said: > > > > > "Pro" player? As in professional player? :lol: > > > > > > > > > > Seriously, don't enforce the already bad elitism surrounding raids. By putting raiders on such a high pedestal you're enforcing the notion that they are better than everyone else who doesn't raid making the already unwelcoming raids even less accessible to people who would want to raid but are getting booted out of raids for not having killed X amount of bosses or being told they suck and that they would never be accepted into groups because they play the class that's not meta. > > > > > > > > > > Anet needs to get rid of the meta, that's how you fix raids. There will still be elitist players, but like they are in fractals now, way less, and only for speedruns. > > > > > > > > Maybe not just " pro " player it's about all of us . We got a motivation to help player which couldn't find a group to kill the boss instead of " He got no exp , should kick him immediately " . > > > In the meantime qtfy and the like are making a fortune selling raids for 100g a boss by preventing any non meta build from entering raids and learning encounters. Yeah i know there are teaching guilds but we all know what they teach. Qtfy meta or gtfo. > > > > Right, qtfy is making tons of gold and snow crows is out to get you. > > > > I've probably helped and introduced more players to raids than you have on your friends list. The only thing ever required was motivation and eagerness to learn. Since the dedicated roles were usually covered by experienced players all new players had to do is care for mechanics and provide a minimal amount of dps with which ever build they wanted. When asking for advice they'd get explanations as to why certain builds are run or given easier non meta alternatives if they were struggling with a very difficult meta build (hello staff weaver). > > > > You have a very biased, uninformed view mixed with quite a bit of spite and envy there. Quite astonishing actually for someone who probably has never set foot in a raid yet to have this vast amount of information about so many players. > > > > > > Dont take everything someone says on a forum as absolute extreme. I know written forum text isn't quite a good medium for subtlety and nuance. I'm not envious, i honestly don't care about raids (i thought about doing them but i just don't habe the time so whatever) but the raid memtality and the "meta craze" is starting to spill into other aspects of the PvE. It's kind of ruining the fun for a lot of people. > > Yes, obviously qtfy don't have a monopoly on raids. But making meta builds so extrlemely essential to raiding prevents all other builds and prefessions from participating. Why are there not 5 different builds for every profession on that site or simmilar ines (i know qtfy isn't the only one but it's most popular so i use it as an example). Just the very existance of that site, the dps meters and the meta is indication on how flawed the whole situation is. Also, everyone is somehow ok with selling raids, even anet so great. That's not shady at all. > > If you're all ok with that, fine, but don't pretend everyone is a saint because they're not. Quantify provide **M**ost-**E**fficient-**T**actic-**A**vailable builds by working out which builds provide the best damage, support, healing or whatever the builds goal is from a raid (and fractal) perspective. They are not offering "builds that sort of work". They never advertised they would be doing that. They provide maximum performance builds so others can either use them or see how their own build measures up to the maximum. They even openly state that the "job" can be done by any class in their benchmark disclaimer: > All benchmarks are done with realistic buffs. > Power class Buffs: Spotter, Frost & Sun spirit, Banner of Strength + Discipline, Empower Allies, Alacrity. 5 Boons (Quickness, Fury, Might, Regen, Swiftness) > Condition class Buffs: Frost & Sun spirit, Pinpoint Distribution, Banner of Strength + Discipline, Empower Allies, Alacrity. 5 Boons (Quickness, Fury, Might, Regen, Swiftness) > The exception to this rule is condi mirage, where it also has vigor and protection because it’s only worth using in a group that has a naturemagic druid > Tests were done on a small 4 million HP golem. Some Large, most small hitboxes. > Every benchmark has been done with 18 +5stat infusions. (about 2% dps increase) > Condition builds used Pinpoint Distribution. (roughly about 3% – 3.5% dps increase depending on class > Benchmarks are done under the assumption of a 5-5 comp but other comps are also viable. > No Night Sigils or Scribe utility foods were used. > These numbers are the numbers done in a vacuum under almost optimal conditions. Some builds, which are weak on the golem, will be the strongest on certain encounters. > The numbers for small hitboxes will work as good or even better on big hitboxes. > Don’t be a class nazi. Every class can do the job if played correctly. You don’t need the highest possible damage to kill a boss. I'd rather have a group of people put in this amount of effort providing the community with information than go back to the old days where people stuck to subjective beliefs about which classes were good or no good where necromancers and ranger were auto kicked from dungeon groups for example. Damage meters are their own issue but suffice to say, if you are in a raid and you are playing your own off-meta build (a lot of people play minstrel mesmer for example because it makes PUG raids a lot easier) no one will care, **if** you are pulling your own weight. A damage meter will simply provide the information on how each player is performing, something needed in any environment where challenging content needs to get overcome so we do not have to resort to guess work as to who needs to improve or where the problems lie if things go wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Mist.2973 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @Shirlias.8104 said: > It's boosting, not encouraging lol. > Also is something related to raidselling ( 300ecto per run ). > > If you want to help you can do the raid with the new player without claiming your reward... really i can't believe it... Well that all depends on the attitude of the raid group. I could go into a raid group and just be told "stick next to him and only hit the boss when we tell you to", which to me is effectively boosting because you aren't really learning anything useful about the encounter or the raid set-up. On the other hand I could go into a raid group where they fully explain the set-up for me, explain the boss mechanics and teach me how to play as part of the team instead of just following along. Unfortunately the system proposed in the OP won't force experienced players to teach newbies in order to get the additional rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcyTear.6378 Posted November 24, 2017 Author Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > -> Finnally : Yes , there're practice raids and guild but it's not a ton as you said and it's restricted about time ( i join a raid guild but they just help practice on Saturday for 2 hours and due to time difference raid practice start at 1 AM ) . I want raid and i will invest time on it but " Require X + Li , KP .... " ; " Sell raid for .... " is a problem to me . > > > > "Require X + Li" is quite literally people telling others what they are looking for. Since every one gets to personally chose how and whom they want to play with, that's valuable information for people interested to join. > > I disagree on the lack of guilds based on 1 simple fact: raiding guilds need a constant supply of new raiders to cover for spots that open up. Tell me, how many guilds have you actually applied to or how often have you even looked at guild recruitment for GW2? Now be honest with yourself, you haven't at all until now have you? How many guild i have joined isn't the matter . The matter is that i want something to encourage player help newbie , and as i said , you could join a raid guild , practice and then do raid but why we have to do all these things while some simple changes could make it easier for everyone . What i proposal is an solution that make everyone happy , a win-win situation . Now tell me , if you disagree with me . Do you have anything to cover your idea ? Do you have any difference idea ? A new solution for example ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcyTear.6378 Posted November 24, 2017 Author Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @Shirlias.8104 said: > It's boosting, not encouraging lol. > Also is something related to raidselling ( 300ecto per run ). > > If you want to help you can do the raid with the new player without claiming your reward... really i can't believe it... Believe me . If players are encouraged to help newbie , raid seller will disappear like they never exist . Do you know why ? Because everyone will be happy to bring newbie in their group , they don't have to buy raid kill anymore . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 I like this idea. It is taxing for players to go help a newbie raid after they've completed their runs. So why not change the rewards a bit: 1st run of the week, you get current rewards, after that; 1st run of the day you get full rewards minus the Legendary Insight. Subsequent ones give Magnetite shards with seriously diminishing returns. (Cap could rise to 300 a week) OR gives the normal rewards **minus** Li and Magnetite (so closer to raid rewards). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > @Shirlias.8104 said: > > It's boosting, not encouraging lol. > > Also is something related to raidselling ( 300ecto per run ). > > > > If you want to help you can do the raid with the new player without claiming your reward... really i can't believe it... > > Believe me . If players are encouraged to help newbie , raid seller will disappear like they never exist . Do you know why ? Because everyone will be happy to bring newbie in their group , they don't have to buy raid kill anymore . What's the point in rewarding people for helping new players? It should came from them, not because of a reward. > I would like to help you but i already cleared the content... This is mostly the current situation, towards new players which not necessarily you know ( guildmates ie ). > Great job guys! Now we can sell an indefinite number of runs, and farm bosses AOE for loot. This will be the situation you propose. PS: i don't know why but seems that you don't link together "those who will bring new players to raid " with "those who sell raids". Also, your proposal will remove timegate from PVE, and this won't happen ( 100 tickets per SPVP season, 365 tickets per WvW week, 13 LI per Week from raids ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > -> Finnally : Yes , there're practice raids and guild but it's not a ton as you said and it's restricted about time ( i join a raid guild but they just help practice on Saturday for 2 hours and due to time difference raid practice start at 1 AM ) . I want raid and i will invest time on it but " Require X + Li , KP .... " ; " Sell raid for .... " is a problem to me . > > > > > > > "Require X + Li" is quite literally people telling others what they are looking for. Since every one gets to personally chose how and whom they want to play with, that's valuable information for people interested to join. > > > > I disagree on the lack of guilds based on 1 simple fact: raiding guilds need a constant supply of new raiders to cover for spots that open up. Tell me, how many guilds have you actually applied to or how often have you even looked at guild recruitment for GW2? Now be honest with yourself, you haven't at all until now have you? > > How many guild i have joined isn't the matter . The matter is that i want something to encourage player help newbie , and as i said , you could join a raid guild , practice and then do raid but why we have to do all these things while some simple changes could make it easier for everyone . What i proposal is an solution that make everyone happy , a win-win situation . Now tell me , if you disagree with me . Do you have anything to cover your idea ? Do you have any difference idea ? A new solution for example ? I don't have a solution for something I do not perceive as a problem. People who want to take part in raids have multiple paths to achieve their goal often assisted by others free of charge. No risk of abusing some reward system. Your suggestion is simply not required. You haven't even put in the effort yourself to see IF you could get help by others to get into raiding. Therefore you said it yourself, you are unwilling to put in the minimum amount of effort to find like minded players. There is no "looking for raid" in this game, there never will be due to lack of resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fewfield.7802 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 Raid content was made to be unreachable by player themselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcyTear.6378 Posted November 24, 2017 Author Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @Shirlias.8104 said: > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > @Shirlias.8104 said: > > > It's boosting, not encouraging lol. > > > Also is something related to raidselling ( 300ecto per run ). > > > > > > If you want to help you can do the raid with the new player without claiming your reward... really i can't believe it... > > > > Believe me . If players are encouraged to help newbie , raid seller will disappear like they never exist . Do you know why ? Because everyone will be happy to bring newbie in their group , they don't have to buy raid kill anymore . > **> What's the point in rewarding people for helping new players? > It should came from them, not because of a reward.** > > > I would like to help you but i already cleared the content... > > This is mostly the current situation, towards new players which not necessarily you know ( guildmates ie ). > > > Great job guys! Now we can sell an indefinite number of runs, and farm bosses AOE for loot. > **> This will be the situation you propose.** > > PS: i don't know why but seems that you don't link together "those who will bring new players to raid " with "those who sell raids". Also, your proposal will remove timegate from PVE, and this won't happen ( **100 tickets per SPVP season, 365 tickets per WvW week, 13 LI per Week from raids** ). - The point in rewarding people for helping new players is encourage them to do that . It's very simple as 1 + 1 = 2 . What is the point of questioned ? - Well , you might be a good guy who's very friendly and always happy in helping people for nothing but i'm not . I'm not a Saint , i could help my friends , my guild members but help a stranger , a lot of strangers for nothing - I said no . - This will not be the situation i proposed . Do you know why ? Cause reward could adjust in an acceptable number . I know my idea could not be optimal but we could discuss , right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcyTear.6378 Posted November 24, 2017 Author Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > > -> Finnally : Yes , there're practice raids and guild but it's not a ton as you said and it's restricted about time ( i join a raid guild but they just help practice on Saturday for 2 hours and due to time difference raid practice start at 1 AM ) . I want raid and i will invest time on it but " Require X + Li , KP .... " ; " Sell raid for .... " is a problem to me . > > > > > > > > > > "Require X + Li" is quite literally people telling others what they are looking for. Since every one gets to personally chose how and whom they want to play with, that's valuable information for people interested to join. > > > > > > I disagree on the lack of guilds based on 1 simple fact: raiding guilds need a constant supply of new raiders to cover for spots that open up. Tell me, how many guilds have you actually applied to or how often have you even looked at guild recruitment for GW2? Now be honest with yourself, you haven't at all until now have you? > > > > How many guild i have joined isn't the matter . The matter is that i want something to encourage player help newbie , and as i said , you could join a raid guild , practice and then do raid but why we have to do all these things while some simple changes could make it easier for everyone . What i proposal is an solution that make everyone happy , a win-win situation . Now tell me , if you disagree with me . Do you have anything to cover your idea ? Do you have any difference idea ? A new solution for example ? > > I don't have a solution for something I do not perceive as a problem. People who want to take part in raids have multiple paths to achieve their goal often assisted by others free of charge. No risk of abusing some reward system. Your suggestion is simply not required. You haven't even put in the effort yourself to see IF you could get help by others to get into raiding. > > Therefore you said it yourself, you are unwilling to put in the minimum amount of effort to find like minded players. There is no "looking for raid" in this game, there never will be due to lack of resources. You said " abusing some reward system " . Could you tell me how ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > > > -> Finnally : Yes , there're practice raids and guild but it's not a ton as you said and it's restricted about time ( i join a raid guild but they just help practice on Saturday for 2 hours and due to time difference raid practice start at 1 AM ) . I want raid and i will invest time on it but " Require X + Li , KP .... " ; " Sell raid for .... " is a problem to me . > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Require X + Li" is quite literally people telling others what they are looking for. Since every one gets to personally chose how and whom they want to play with, that's valuable information for people interested to join. > > > > > > > > I disagree on the lack of guilds based on 1 simple fact: raiding guilds need a constant supply of new raiders to cover for spots that open up. Tell me, how many guilds have you actually applied to or how often have you even looked at guild recruitment for GW2? Now be honest with yourself, you haven't at all until now have you? > > > > > > How many guild i have joined isn't the matter . The matter is that i want something to encourage player help newbie , and as i said , you could join a raid guild , practice and then do raid but why we have to do all these things while some simple changes could make it easier for everyone . What i proposal is an solution that make everyone happy , a win-win situation . Now tell me , if you disagree with me . Do you have anything to cover your idea ? Do you have any difference idea ? A new solution for example ? > > > > I don't have a solution for something I do not perceive as a problem. People who want to take part in raids have multiple paths to achieve their goal often assisted by others free of charge. No risk of abusing some reward system. Your suggestion is simply not required. You haven't even put in the effort yourself to see IF you could get help by others to get into raiding. > > > > Therefore you said it yourself, you are unwilling to put in the minimum amount of effort to find like minded players. There is no "looking for raid" in this game, there never will be due to lack of resources. > > You said " abusing some reward system " . Could you tell me how ? Read through your own thread, some but not exclusive ways strait off the bat would be: - pushing alt accounts for bonus rewards. net benefit to the entire community = 0 - rushing players through content as fast as possible without teaching them anything just to grab the extra loot (yes, this is great for the player getting free loot, but it defeats the purpose of actually bringing players into raiding) - increasing the rewards for players who already are at the top echelon of the game - even further push people to run low man raids filling up the other spots with people they are "helping" potentially adding a fee for very good performance (aka create even more groups who will sell raids) - increase pressure on the core raid team by now expecting to bring along x amount of inexperienced players. not top tier builds, especially damage builds, will come even more under pressure and the list goes on. People get very creative when they are offered extra rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @IcyTear.6378 said: > - The point in rewarding people for helping new players is encourage them to do that . It's very simple as 1 + 1 = 2 . What is the point of questioned ? > - Well , you might be a good guy who's very friendly and always happy in helping people for nothing but i'm not . I'm not a Saint , i could help my friends , my guild members but help a stranger , a lot of strangers for nothing - I said no . > - This will not be the situation i proposed . Do you know why ? Cause reward could adjust in an acceptable number . I know my idea could not be optimal but we could discuss , right ? No you don't understand. We don't have to reward players for carrying noobs to raid. Currently the situation is that raid are sold for Ectos ( Mostly ANET's fault with the Raid mastery which forbidden you from gettin ss, but now it should be fine ), and if you allow players to gain rewards with no delay you can exploit the timegate set for the legendary armor ( which ALL the other modalities have ), and also push toward raidselling or farming. It won't help anybody. It seems that the suggestion is made for somebody which already raids and want more rewards or to rush the legendary armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcyTear.6378 Posted November 24, 2017 Author Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @Shirlias.8104 said: > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > - The point in rewarding people for helping new players is encourage them to do that . It's very simple as 1 + 1 = 2 . What is the point of questioned ? > > - Well , you might be a good guy who's very friendly and always happy in helping people for nothing but i'm not . I'm not a Saint , i could help my friends , my guild members but help a stranger , a lot of strangers for nothing - I said no . > > - This will not be the situation i proposed . Do you know why ? Cause reward could adjust in an acceptable number . I know my idea could not be optimal but we could discuss , right ? > > No you don't understand. > > We don't have to reward players for carrying noobs to raid. > Currently the situation is that raid are sold for Ectos ( Mostly ANET's fault with the Raid mastery which forbidden you from gettin ss, but now it should be fine ), and if you allow players to gain rewards with no delay you can exploit the timegate set for the legendary armor ( which ALL the other modalities have ), and also push toward raidselling or farming. > > It won't help anybody. > > It seems that the suggestion is made for somebody which already raids and want more rewards or to rush the legendary armor. > No you don't understand . Why we don't have to reward players for carried noob to raid ? At home when you help your mother your sister ... , do receive anything ? A cake , something or a simple thanks could count as a reward . Currently the situation is raid seller . You're are right . Do you know why ? Because there's no one willing helping them that why they have to buy raid kill . As i said , reward could adjust in an acceptable number . Example : after first kill and get full reward . The second kill will just give you shards and reward minus Li . The third kill is just shards , fourth kill is shards - 5 ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > @Shirlias.8104 said: > > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > > > - The point in rewarding people for helping new players is encourage them to do that . It's very simple as 1 + 1 = 2 . What is the point of questioned ? > > > - Well , you might be a good guy who's very friendly and always happy in helping people for nothing but i'm not . I'm not a Saint , i could help my friends , my guild members but help a stranger , a lot of strangers for nothing - I said no . > > > - This will not be the situation i proposed . Do you know why ? Cause reward could adjust in an acceptable number . I know my idea could not be optimal but we could discuss , right ? > > > > No you don't understand. > > > > We don't have to reward players for carrying noobs to raid. > > Currently the situation is that raid are sold for Ectos ( Mostly ANET's fault with the Raid mastery which forbidden you from gettin ss, but now it should be fine ), and if you allow players to gain rewards with no delay you can exploit the timegate set for the legendary armor ( which ALL the other modalities have ), and also push toward raidselling or farming. > > > > It won't help anybody. > > > > It seems that the suggestion is made for somebody which already raids and want more rewards or to rush the legendary armor. > > > > Currently the situation is raid seller . You're are god kitten right . Do you know why ? Because there's no one willing helping them that why they have to buy raid kill You keep saying that, and it remains untrue no matter how often you repeat this nonsense. EDIT: people buying raid kills do so due to very different reasons and very seldom if at all do they have to do anything with learning the fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcyTear.6378 Posted November 24, 2017 Author Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > > > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > > > > -> Finnally : Yes , there're practice raids and guild but it's not a ton as you said and it's restricted about time ( i join a raid guild but they just help practice on Saturday for 2 hours and due to time difference raid practice start at 1 AM ) . I want raid and i will invest time on it but " Require X + Li , KP .... " ; " Sell raid for .... " is a problem to me . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Require X + Li" is quite literally people telling others what they are looking for. Since every one gets to personally chose how and whom they want to play with, that's valuable information for people interested to join. > > > > > > > > > > I disagree on the lack of guilds based on 1 simple fact: raiding guilds need a constant supply of new raiders to cover for spots that open up. Tell me, how many guilds have you actually applied to or how often have you even looked at guild recruitment for GW2? Now be honest with yourself, you haven't at all until now have you? > > > > > > > > How many guild i have joined isn't the matter . The matter is that i want something to encourage player help newbie , and as i said , you could join a raid guild , practice and then do raid but why we have to do all these things while some simple changes could make it easier for everyone . What i proposal is an solution that make everyone happy , a win-win situation . Now tell me , if you disagree with me . Do you have anything to cover your idea ? Do you have any difference idea ? A new solution for example ? > > > > > > I don't have a solution for something I do not perceive as a problem. People who want to take part in raids have multiple paths to achieve their goal often assisted by others free of charge. No risk of abusing some reward system. Your suggestion is simply not required. You haven't even put in the effort yourself to see IF you could get help by others to get into raiding. > > > > > > Therefore you said it yourself, you are unwilling to put in the minimum amount of effort to find like minded players. There is no "looking for raid" in this game, there never will be due to lack of resources. > > > > You said " abusing some reward system " . Could you tell me how ? > > Read through your own thread, some but not exclusive ways strait off the bat would be: > > - pushing alt accounts for bonus rewards. net benefit to the entire community = 0 > - rushing players through content as fast as possible without teaching them anything just to grab the extra loot (yes, this is great for the player getting free loot, but it defeats the purpose of actually bringing players into raiding) > - increasing the rewards for players who already are at the top echelon of the game > - even further push people to run low man raids filling up the other spots with people they are "helping" potentially adding a fee for very good performance (aka create even more groups who will sell raids) > - increase pressure on the core raid team by now expecting to bring along x amount of inexperienced players. not top tier builds, especially damage builds, will come even more under pressure > > and the list goes on. People get very creative when they are offered extra rewards. All the thing you said could solve by adjust the reward in an reasonable number . I don't want to discuss more cause you don't understand the base idea . I disagree about " create even more groups who will sell raids " . How raid seller group could sell raid if people just join a group which help them for reward and ask for nothing ? I also disagree about " increase pressure on the core raid team by now expecting to bring along x amount of inexperienced players " . If you got a raid group , you and your group could do raid , get full reward and leave or you could bring 1 - 2 newbie , help them kill the boss and get some extra reward . There's no pressure here ? What do mean ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > > > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > > > > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > > > > > -> Finnally : Yes , there're practice raids and guild but it's not a ton as you said and it's restricted about time ( i join a raid guild but they just help practice on Saturday for 2 hours and due to time difference raid practice start at 1 AM ) . I want raid and i will invest time on it but " Require X + Li , KP .... " ; " Sell raid for .... " is a problem to me . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Require X + Li" is quite literally people telling others what they are looking for. Since every one gets to personally chose how and whom they want to play with, that's valuable information for people interested to join. > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree on the lack of guilds based on 1 simple fact: raiding guilds need a constant supply of new raiders to cover for spots that open up. Tell me, how many guilds have you actually applied to or how often have you even looked at guild recruitment for GW2? Now be honest with yourself, you haven't at all until now have you? > > > > > > > > > > How many guild i have joined isn't the matter . The matter is that i want something to encourage player help newbie , and as i said , you could join a raid guild , practice and then do raid but why we have to do all these things while some simple changes could make it easier for everyone . What i proposal is an solution that make everyone happy , a win-win situation . Now tell me , if you disagree with me . Do you have anything to cover your idea ? Do you have any difference idea ? A new solution for example ? > > > > > > > > I don't have a solution for something I do not perceive as a problem. People who want to take part in raids have multiple paths to achieve their goal often assisted by others free of charge. No risk of abusing some reward system. Your suggestion is simply not required. You haven't even put in the effort yourself to see IF you could get help by others to get into raiding. > > > > > > > > Therefore you said it yourself, you are unwilling to put in the minimum amount of effort to find like minded players. There is no "looking for raid" in this game, there never will be due to lack of resources. > > > > > > You said " abusing some reward system " . Could you tell me how ? > > > > Read through your own thread, some but not exclusive ways strait off the bat would be: > > > > - pushing alt accounts for bonus rewards. net benefit to the entire community = 0 > > - rushing players through content as fast as possible without teaching them anything just to grab the extra loot (yes, this is great for the player getting free loot, but it defeats the purpose of actually bringing players into raiding) > > - increasing the rewards for players who already are at the top echelon of the game > > - even further push people to run low man raids filling up the other spots with people they are "helping" potentially adding a fee for very good performance (aka create even more groups who will sell raids) > > - increase pressure on the core raid team by now expecting to bring along x amount of inexperienced players. not top tier builds, especially damage builds, will come even more under pressure > > > > and the list goes on. People get very creative when they are offered extra rewards. > > All the thing you said could solve by adjust the reward in an reasonable number . I don't want to discuss more cause you don't understand the base idea . > I disagree about " create even more groups who will sell raids " . How raid seller group could sell raid if people just join a group which help them for reward and ask for nothing ? > I also disagree about " increase pressure on the core raid team by now expecting to bring along x amount of inexperienced players " . If you got a raid group , you and your group could do raid , get full reward and leave or you could bring 1 - 2 newbie , help them kill the boss and get some extra reward . There's no pressure here ? What do mean ? So you are now splitting up the raid community into the groups who have already finished the fights and are getting the bonus rewards, and those who still are on their first kill. Don't you realize that the moment people make groups for consecutive clears for bonus loot they will have higher expectations plus having the raiding player pool get split creates it's very own problems. You are basing all your idea on 1 thing: your expectations and theory of how you believe it might work out. You have 0 raid experience, 0 experience as far as creating or managing a raid, 0 experience as far as how hard it is to start raiding, 0 experience as far as how difficult the entire process of starting fresh and killing everything, 0 experience as to how lucrative raids are, etc. Yet here you are, arguing with people who have all of that experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcyTear.6378 Posted November 24, 2017 Author Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > @Shirlias.8104 said: > > > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > > > > > - The point in rewarding people for helping new players is encourage them to do that . It's very simple as 1 + 1 = 2 . What is the point of questioned ? > > > > - Well , you might be a good guy who's very friendly and always happy in helping people for nothing but i'm not . I'm not a Saint , i could help my friends , my guild members but help a stranger , a lot of strangers for nothing - I said no . > > > > - This will not be the situation i proposed . Do you know why ? Cause reward could adjust in an acceptable number . I know my idea could not be optimal but we could discuss , right ? > > > > > > No you don't understand. > > > > > > We don't have to reward players for carrying noobs to raid. > > > Currently the situation is that raid are sold for Ectos ( Mostly ANET's fault with the Raid mastery which forbidden you from gettin ss, but now it should be fine ), and if you allow players to gain rewards with no delay you can exploit the timegate set for the legendary armor ( which ALL the other modalities have ), and also push toward raidselling or farming. > > > > > > It won't help anybody. > > > > > > It seems that the suggestion is made for somebody which already raids and want more rewards or to rush the legendary armor. > > > > > > > Currently the situation is raid seller . You're are god kitten right . Do you know why ? Because there's no one willing helping them that why they have to buy raid kill > > You keep saying that, and it remains untrue no matter how often you repeat this nonsense. > > EDIT: people buying raid kills do so due to very different reasons and very seldom if at all do they have to do anything with learning the fights. Am i wrong ? Do you usually help a stranger ? For nothing ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaborkaldy.3210 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 I think it is very exploitable if GW would reward them with extra LI or Shard. I do find the idea very good, but there should be other incentives other than those which result pure gold or progression. Not sure what could be there the best thing. I can think of about some Mentor Tokens, what you can exchange to a title or counts towards achievement, or towards a cape with a red cross or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > > @Shirlias.8104 said: > > > > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > > > > > > > - The point in rewarding people for helping new players is encourage them to do that . It's very simple as 1 + 1 = 2 . What is the point of questioned ? > > > > > - Well , you might be a good guy who's very friendly and always happy in helping people for nothing but i'm not . I'm not a Saint , i could help my friends , my guild members but help a stranger , a lot of strangers for nothing - I said no . > > > > > - This will not be the situation i proposed . Do you know why ? Cause reward could adjust in an acceptable number . I know my idea could not be optimal but we could discuss , right ? > > > > > > > > No you don't understand. > > > > > > > > We don't have to reward players for carrying noobs to raid. > > > > Currently the situation is that raid are sold for Ectos ( Mostly ANET's fault with the Raid mastery which forbidden you from gettin ss, but now it should be fine ), and if you allow players to gain rewards with no delay you can exploit the timegate set for the legendary armor ( which ALL the other modalities have ), and also push toward raidselling or farming. > > > > > > > > It won't help anybody. > > > > > > > > It seems that the suggestion is made for somebody which already raids and want more rewards or to rush the legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > Currently the situation is raid seller . You're are god kitten right . Do you know why ? Because there's no one willing helping them that why they have to buy raid kill > > > > You keep saying that, and it remains untrue no matter how often you repeat this nonsense. > > > > EDIT: people buying raid kills do so due to very different reasons and very seldom if at all do they have to do anything with learning the fights. > > Am i wrong ? Do you usually help a stranger ? For nothing ? I've already stated that I have and am running regularly training runs with one of the guilds I'm in. Don't act so surprised. People in guilds will often help each other, not to mention volunteers who do it for fun. I already linked to a training guild which regularly advertises on the forums here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamy Lu.3865 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 I believe - like said a bit earlier in another thread - that raiding is a very special activity, difficult, with a mandatory learning phase that cannot be skipped. I also do believe that it can be enjoyed only if done as member of a raiding guild (as in a guild who has this as main activity). That way, comfortable conditions are secured: There are training/teaching sessions and experienced sessions organized by the guild, usually once a week for each. It helps learning properly, feeling secured because in team with friends, with benefit to learn from experienced players willing to share knowledges. At the top of it, it secures to always have a team to go for raids. I believe that to hope learning as an alone player going into raid via party offer is probably rather a killer, with a huge risk to get blamed and/or even kicked off. I kindly recommend players who are new to raids and want to start this activity, to join a raiding guild, at least for the learning phase. Once experienced, it gives more flexibility. :) I don't tell that OP's proposal is bad or good. I just think it is not necessary. On my opinion, good and pleasant way to learn raiding is already available, with no need to use a reward system to motivate people for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > @Shirlias.8104 said: > > > @IcyTear.6378 said: > > > > > - The point in rewarding people for helping new players is encourage them to do that . It's very simple as 1 + 1 = 2 . What is the point of questioned ? > > > - Well , you might be a good guy who's very friendly and always happy in helping people for nothing but i'm not . I'm not a Saint , i could help my friends , my guild members but help a stranger , a lot of strangers for nothing - I said no . > > > - This will not be the situation i proposed . Do you know why ? Cause reward could adjust in an acceptable number . I know my idea could not be optimal but we could discuss , right ? > > > > No you don't understand. > > > > We don't have to reward players for carrying noobs to raid. > > Currently the situation is that raid are sold for Ectos ( Mostly ANET's fault with the Raid mastery which forbidden you from gettin ss, but now it should be fine ), and if you allow players to gain rewards with no delay you can exploit the timegate set for the legendary armor ( which ALL the other modalities have ), and also push toward raidselling or farming. > > > > It won't help anybody. > > > > It seems that the suggestion is made for somebody which already raids and want more rewards or to rush the legendary armor. > > > > No you don't understand . > > Why we don't have to reward players for carried noob to raid ? At home when you help your mother your sister ... , do receive anything ? A cake , something or a simple thanks could count as a reward . > > Currently the situation is raid seller . You're are right . Do you know why ? Because there's no one willing helping them that why they have to buy raid kill . > > As i said , reward could adjust in an acceptable number . Example : after first kill and get full reward . The second kill will just give you shards and reward minus Li . The third kill is just shards , fourth kill is shards - 5 ...... > > > Dude, they won't give advantages to sellers. If players wants to help each others they can do it without rewards. It makes me sick to see that there should be some extra in order to push players to help newcomers. Also you still don't get the part about raid sellers. Now they sell, after with an even greater reward they are going to sell even more. If you can't accept this scenario you are definitely blind. Here you are pretending that ANET gives you something which suggests you to bring into your raid people who didn't complete the run. Want to help a new player? Do it. Don't want because you don't have anything back? Don't do it. Also guild could farm bringing each other member if they would with your system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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