Scourge PvE life force costs analysis [Updated]

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

So say "Shade pulse" instead of "Summon Sand Shade." I'm quite aware of how the F skills function on Scourge. Including the fact that Dhuumfire does not proc off of the pulse from you, and Transfustion does not pulse from any shades.

 

The thing you're forgetting is that the damage you lose from sitting on dagger to gain the life force is more than the damage you gain from using F2 and F3 with higher frequency. During your swap to Dagger, you only get 6-8 seconds of actually auto-attacking on account of needing to place a Shade, use your offhand skills, and possibly utility skills. That doesn't give you much time to build life force, only 26.4%, which only nets you three F2 uses. Staying on Scepter, you generate just over half of that anyway. You don't make up the damage loss.

[Alchimist.4738]

It’s a shame PvE enemies don’t have more boons, because if they had Nourishing Rot would fix this difficulty to generate life force with sceptre + torch/dagger.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Well, then we'd have a different question: is the life force making up for the Expertise loss and less frequent Torch skills (which are definitely our hardest-hitters in a condition build)? That one is admittedly harder to answer, since frequency of the boons is important.

[kKagari.6804]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> Well, then we'd have a different question: is the life force making up for the Expertise loss and less frequent Torch skills (which are definitely our hardest-hitters in a condition build)? That one is admittedly harder to answer, since frequency of the boons is important.

 

Omg we could probably maths that.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Well, 5% every 3 seconds isn't enough to use F2 exactly on cooldown, But I don't yet know how many F2 casts are needed to break even with Fell Beacon. The Expertise from that trait is approximately 7% duration in a Vipers build, so all conditions will do about 2.5% less (Vipers with food and two shades hits 101% duration). This should be made up for by increased F2 use, but doesn't account for the longer cooldown on torch skills.

 

Right now, my gut says "no," but I haven't calculated it yet. Again, Alacrity is working against this option being better.

[kKagari.6804]

How much life force do you get from deaths btw? I wonder if bone minions have any purpose in all this.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @kKagari.6804 said:

> How much life force do you get from deaths btw? I wonder if bone minions have any purpose in all this.

 

10% from deaths, but minions you can sacrifice or that have timed life don't give any. Flesh Wurm has life force gain built into the sacrifice skill.

 

So, Blood Fiend, Bone Minions, Jagged Horrors, Shambling Horrors, Unstable Horrors, and Flesh Wurm give no life force upon death. Only Shadow Fiend, Bone Fiend, and Flesh Golem do.

[Belenwyn.8674]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> Well, then we'd have a different question: is the life force making up for the Expertise loss and less frequent Torch skills (which are definitely our hardest-hitters in a condition build)? That one is admittedly harder to answer, since frequency of the boons is important.

 

I think that will be a situational decision depending on encounters. If encounters require a frequent usage of F2 to convert boons and/or conditions Nourishing Rot will support the gameplay a lot. In situations with with low presence of boons and conditions on allies the trait will not help much/at all. I have the feeling that we will see a lot of Scourges and Spellbreakers in future raids. The current meta is relying too much on boons and often stacking to miss the chance of countering that behaviour,

 

As a side note, Nourishing Rot is for me the hottest candidate for a split. In PvE it could work like Chilling Darkness ( all boons removed by a single cast or pulse count for LF generation) in WvW definitely not.

[Drawing Guy.3701]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> So say "Shade pulse" instead of "Summon Sand Shade." I'm quite aware of how the F skills function on Scourge. Including the fact that Dhuumfire does not proc off of the pulse from you, and Transfustion does not pulse from any kitten.

>

> The thing you're forgetting is that the damage you lose from sitting on dagger to gain the life force is more than the damage you gain from using F2 and F3 with higher frequency. During your swap to Dagger, you only get 6-8 seconds of actually auto-attacking on account of needing to place a Shade, use your offhand skills, and possibly utility skills. That doesn't give you much time to build life force, only 26.4%, which only nets you three F2 uses. Staying on Scepter, you generate just over half of that anyway. You don't make up the damage loss.

 

I think arguing semantics when I called the pulse ability by the actual skill name is silly, especially when all Scourge traits that affect it call it by that, but whatever.

 

Like staying on Scepter, you'd stay on Dagger - _any_ swap off of dagger with the exception of ideal Staff line-ups (which itself would be a much bigger DPS loss than Dagger is) is a LF gain loss. DPS, of course, would be going against camping Scepter 1-3. Where I'd see lots of swapping is between Scepter and Axe if the extra LF is worth it. While there were a few posts putting tests for Dagger ahead of Scepter, at this point it's still too early for conclusive statements.

 

As for Dhuumfire and Transfusion - Dhuumfire I admit in my testing that I did not pay attention for it triggering off myself... I will definitely confirm that come Live, but you'll be wanting to drop a Shade in all fights for Sand Soul anyways. Transfusion you can see triggering off Shade in Wooden Potatoe's video (14:25):

 

As long as that stays, that puts some interesting support build options in WvW and PvP.

 

@"Alchimist.4738" - The 3s cooldown on Nourishing Rot unfortunately puts the Trait in the "trash" category for me. I know it's to stop from massive LF gain in WvW zerg situations, but is that really the end of the world? It would make it a solid build choice between the support of Abrasive Grit, DPS of Fell Beacon, or LF gain to make Shade skills spammable with Nourishing. Until they remove the CD or rework the skill, it's a non-factor IMO. Personally I plan on running Abrasive Grit in open world (as quick Might gain and ignoring condis is better for trash killing than condi duration) or giving party support, and Fell Beacon for everything else.

 

@"kKagari.6804" - The ones that aren’t meant to be destroyed (Flesh Golem, Bone Fiend, Shadow Fiend) do give life force when dead, all the rest (Bone Minions, Blood Fiend, Flesh Worm, Unstable Horrors, and Shambling Horrors) do not. This means that the only way to get Life Force gain is from single summons that are at the whim of others to kill, have longer CDs, and you'll be sustaining with any barrier use... in short, they don't really com into play for LF gain gameplay.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

The Wooden Potatoes video is misleading. Transfusion has 600 range, and that player was within that range.

 

I purposely tested it with a friend. A Shade was sitting right on top of him, but I was far back. He got zero healing.

[Drawing Guy.3701]

Thanks for confirming that Drarnor. Still glad that they gave it full pulse of a single cast skill rather than it being a useless single tick tied to the actual skill pulses.

 

Figured I'd take the time to point out Utility LF values:

 

Utilities have the advantage of some out of combat LF gains. There are 5 ways you can gain LF out of combat:

- Dessicate

- Lich Form on end of Transform

- Flesh Worm teleport

- Summoning Flesh Golem, Bone Fiend, or Shadow Fiend then changing the skill after CD

- Spectral Mastery (Spectral Grasp still requires enemy hit to gain, and competes against Vital Persistence)

 

Dessicate has the shortest CD of these options and requires no swapping to perform, but you should always be able to enter combat with a full LF bar.

 

I'm going to ignore Spectral Mastery in these numbers as I consider losing Vital Persistence counter to the point of max LF gain for increase Shade usage. Also going to default add Gluttony to the numbers - So those not running Soul Reaping would get 10% less. Keeping with the 1 minute rounded down cycle as well.

 

**Dessicate:** 11% on a 20s CD, 16s traited. Rounding causes no difference over a one minute timer, but obviously is better traited over time. 16,674 * 11% = 1834 * 3 = 5,502 LF per min

 

**Haunt:** This is the Shadow Fiend command, and requires your minion to be summoned and an enemy target to use. 11% on a 20s CD. 16,674 * 11% = 1834 * 3 = 5,502 LF per min

 

**Necrotic Traversal:** This requires Flesh Worm to be summoned, but will give you LF in or out of combat. As it destroys the Flesh Worm, it is tied to the CD of the summon. 11% on a 32s CD. 16,674 * 11% = 1834 per min (can't use twice in a single min, especially after long cast times)

 

**Signet of Undeath:** 2.2% every 3s untraited, and 3.3% every 3s traited, though going Spite and giving up Close to Death is a tough cookie to swallow.

- Traited: 16,674 * 3.3% = 550 * 20 = 11,000 LF per min

- Untratied: 16,674 * 2.2% = 366 * 20 = 7,320 LF per min

 

**Spectral Armor:** This one only gives LF (not counting Spectral Mastery 5.5% on cast) when you get hit, so can range from ZERO Life Force to 8.8% every second (assuming you get hit with perfect timing) for the 8s duration (9.6% traited, but not calculating that). This is the upper limit: 16,674 * 8.8% * 8 procs = 11,738 per min. The long CD (40s) means one cast per min, but the Soul Reaping Last Gasp trigger has its own timer (50s), so it is possible to get this triggered twice in a single min.

 

**Spectral Grasp:** 16.5% on a 50s CD (both untraited). 16,674 * 16.5% = 2,751 LF per min

 

**Spectral Walk:** Faces the same concerns as Spectral Armor, and using Recall will stop the LF gain. This is upper limit: 16,674 * 2.2% * 10 procs = 3,668 per min.

 

**Lich Form:** 16.5% at the end of Lich Form on a 180s CD. 16,674 * 16.5% = 2,751 / 3 (due to the CD lasting 3 mins) = 917 LF per min.

 

 

Spectral Armor has the potential for a great boost of LF, but is so highly situational (especially when your goal is to _not_ be hit) the clear highest LF option is Signet of Undeath, which is unsurprising. Though I don't think that will compete against Dessicate which over time is pretty close to an untraited signet and has additional utility of DPS.

[Arzurag.7506]

I hope the expaansion reveals gear with stat-combinations that are worth running on scourge, otherwise I´ll stick to power.^^

 

 

 

edit: don´t worry, I´ll stay away from raids ;)

[Exqq.7451]

> @Arzurag.7506 said:

> I hope the expaansion reveals gear with stat-combinations that are worth running on scourge, otherwise I´ll stick to power.^^

>

>

>

> edit: don´t worry, I´ll stay away from raids ;)

 

I'll be right there with you on my Power Minion Scourge, lulz!

[Anchoku.8142]

Come on, Friday! Call it morbid curiosity but I am eager to find out what changes were made since the beta weekends.

 

I really thought the LF generation limit for sceptre builds was an intentional nerf to Scourge / Curses synergy and hope I am wrong.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @Anchoku.8142 said:

> Come on, Friday! Call it morbid curiosity but I am eager to find out what changes were made since the beta weekends.

>

> I really thought the LF generation limit for sceptre builds was an intentional nerf to Scourge / Curses synergy and hope I am wrong.

 

Can't say it was a nerf, since Scepter life force generation hasn't changed since before HoT.

[Lexan.5930]

if the point of your build is condi dmg then taking lingering curse and switching to dagger is a huge dps loss because your losing 150 condi dmg. LF gen might be an issue but hopefully out main dps will come from our weapons and the LF skills and utility augment the dps but dont define it. This allows for some super high dps specific builds and rotations, but also allows us to find a general form of a build that can do well single target and multi target and moveing target (which will be the hardest with sand shades.

 

I'll probably be goig scepter/torch, staff for the most variety in encounters. And for LF gen there is also desicrate for LF gen on shorter CD with the trait. It kinda feels like we're going to need to make sure our FoC hits with the max cndi's on the enemy all the time for tormentthen burning but also for the LF gain so we can't start with it but also can't just spam it.

 

All in all i'm really liking the ability to manage my skill priorities and a small rotation with still like desicate, summmon shade, bip, cleanse condi, apply some condi's then hit em with foc then pop shroud.

 

will also be fun to see the rotations for each encounter as well

[Anchoku.8142]

Meant that Scourge's LF utilization is nerfed/limited by sceptre and OH dagger. I suspected it was intentional or torch and Scourge traits would be designed to ensure Scourge F-skills had plenty of LF supply for that family of builds.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @Anchoku.8142 said:

> Meant that Scourge's LF utilization is nerfed/limited by sceptre and OH dagger. I suspected it was intentional or torch and Scourge traits would be designed to ensure Scourge F-skills had plenty of LF supply for that family of builds.

 

Anet have said they would be adjusting all elite specs, after the first demo, so it is possible we will see some changes in that department.

[kKagari.6804]

I've updated the chart to reflect today's changes! https://imgur.com/9QspTSb

 

Please update your link too Crinn!

[Crinn.7864]

> @kKagari.6804 said:

> I've updated the chart to reflect today's changes! https://imgur.com/9QspTSb

>

> Please update your link too Crinn!

 

I updated all of the math in the original post.

 

Needless to say it's pretty bad. Even with the added life force gain to Harrowing Wave, Scourge still can't use F5 on cooldown without investing in LF generating utility skills. And you can kiss any chance of using other F skills goodbye.

[kKagari.6804]

Eh, I'm still tentatively excited :anguished: for PvP anyways.

[Crinn.7864]

> @kKagari.6804 said:

> Eh, I'm still tentatively excited :anguished: for PvP anyways.

 

I spend almost all my time in sPvP (platinum 2 currently) I am quite certain that Scourge will not be competitive in PvP. It doesn't bring anything to the table, and it's far more vulnerable compared to reaper.

 

 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Ehh, depends on how many condition builds there are in PvP. Scourge is still really strong against conditions.

 

If Power builds end up becoming most common (unlikely, given how many condition-focused Elite Specs we're getting), then yeah, Scourge is in a terrible place.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> Ehh, depends on how many condition builds there are. Scourge is still really strong against conditions.

 

Irrelevant, there are better ways for handling condis than taking a class that dies whenever a ranged class, a thief, or a power melee class sneezes on it.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Fair enough. Though so far as melee is concerned, there is the matter of how many stacks and how long the Stability on Trail of Anguish is. Doubt it will be enough, but it can't hurt.