yann.1946 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > >This will already increase the average waiting times, which will drive more players to switch, snowballing the process. Note that the process happens as I describe it without a single unhappy raider. Therefore, your conclusion "if players switch then that's what they prefer* is baseless. You're either missing the whole point of my objection, or you're misinterpreting it on purpose. > > > > > > Let me ask you this: Say there is a player who, right now, is raiding. He's cleared every boss at least once, and every week he goes out and does at least a few raids, grinding his way toward whatever goal he has. But he definitely *does not enjoy the experience.* He is not like you, he does not enjoy the things you do, he is in it for the loot, because the raid is the ONLY place to get certain loot, but he genuinely hates the time he spends doing so, it is not fun, it is not a game, it is a *chore,* and it constantly erodes his sense of enjoyment of the game. > > > > > > Do you care? > > > > > > Do you want that player to be happy? And I don't mean "I wish he could be made happy by feeling the way I feel about raids," I mean, do you want *him* to be happy, even accepting that he will *never* enjoy raids the way you enjoy raids? > > > > > > Assuming not, why not? > > > > My question would rather be if doing the content is destroying his pleasure of the game why would he do the content. > > > > I understand the desire for loot but if this actually corrodes their fun in the game they shouldn't do it period. > > > > Imaging somebody ordering a glass of beer at a bar taking a sip and vomiting from the taste and then continue drinking and at the telling the bartender how horrible it was. I would have no sympathy with such a person. > > > > Of course the argument about HOT armour will arise but i do question should we care about the person who sucks the fun out of the game for himself > > to chase some loot? > > He's doing it because he doesn't have any other way of getting the reward he wants to have. As a result he is grinding through something he doesn't want to do because he has ZERO options to do it any other way. > > How hard is that to get? i know why he does it. I'm just of the opinion that the health of the game (Where different modes have different rewards) is more important then the desire of 1 person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's your own conviction. Mine is that you *will* deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? > > > > > > > > > > Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase. > > > > > In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. > > > > > > > > Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. > > > > > > Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. > > > > > > Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? > > > > Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. > > > > So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. > > > > Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. > > The point is they introduced raids to pull more people in with the HOT expansion. to market to a specific kind of player. > > Honestly i don't really see where you're argument would prove me wrong. Rather it explains quite nicely why you should lock rewards to specific content. Well beyond the fact that HoT was a major catastrophic failure... I can't see why this was not a brilliant idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferelwing.8463 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's your own conviction. Mine is that you *will* deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? > > > > > > > > > > Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase. > > > > > In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. > > > > > > > > Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. > > > > > > Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. > > > > > > Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? > > > > Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. > > > > So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. > > > > Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. > > The point is they introduced raids to pull more people in with the HOT expansion. to market to a specific kind of player. > > Honestly i don't really see where you're argument would prove me wrong. Rather it explains quite nicely why you should lock rewards to specific content. No, you're not getting it. WvW isn't instanced. Anyone can join up and go to any map and watch map/team;/chat etc and learn where they are needed and what they need to do on the fly. They can play whatever gear they are wearing and in fact most gear (even PVE gear) isn't looked down on (you're a glass cannon and die super fast but you can at least get off a few damaging hits before you go down) as a result there's more experimentation with builds and more testing being done because your gear ISN'T stagnant. There's a wider range of classes and groups as a direct result of this. Whereas raiding requires certain gear and classes, WvW does not. WvW offers choices which raiding and, if we're being honest, PVE do not. That's my complaint, PVE is stagnant because it doesn't offer anything new to the "average" player. It doesn't offer different build paths there are exactly 2 for all but perhaps 2 classes (Rangers and Mesmers are the ONLY classes that get to have different builds I think they get up to 3 or 4 options vs everyone else's 2). If you want to play any of the other possible builds you're not invited to the party. Which is understood because PVE requires you to do a lot of damage and doesn't need you to worry about the other stats. You get some new content every 3 months or so and some cool events but then it becomes a grind fest. I don't like to grind. There, I said it, I hate grinding. I want to be challenged sure but I don't want to sit there and fail a million times over and over again nor do I want to spend 4 hours on 1 boss and sure you keep telling me that eventually I will stop having to spend 4 hours on this boss and then it will be easy, but that also requires me to put EVEN MORE time into it when I could just go to WvW and have a new fight and a new exhilarating moment with real visual queues and having actual feedback that I'm doing the right thing (or wrong thing) immediately. There's a lot of mechanics involved in knowing where to put siege, in understanding positioning in a zerg or while you're roaming alone or with a small group. All of which don't require me to study a bunch of videos, I can get it immediately. I also don't have to wait for 9 other people to join me. I can do it by myself or with a group or with a small group. But, you get the "super cool shinies" and I get "meh" shinies. So yes, please explain to me again why your shinies should be the only shinies of their type and the "best" shinies of their type but everyone else's shinies should be "less" because your small player base is more important then the rest of the player base of the game. So when you say it's cool to lock these "shinies" behind INSTANCED content? No, that's like comparing apples to oranges... What I was saying was simple: If you can only have 10 players join up to get to the content and then you have a large learning curve that involves tons of failures to get through it? While some people might find that fun(and have the time to do it), not everyone wants to spend 4 hours failing to finally finish something(if they're lucky). In fact, very few would. You are saying it was marketed to that group? GW2 was not originally for raiding , in fact that was a big selling point, a small group of people convinced the dev's to add it. That tiny portion of the overall GW2 population shouldn't get the "shinies" because they badgered the dev's to get what they wanted at the expense of everyone else. How is it reasonable to say your shinies should be the only shinies of their kind for PVE and no one else can have them unless they want to do the stuff a tiny portion of the gaming population wanted? Especially since your "shinies" only really have 2 options (unless you actually play wvw or pvp)? Why should people who are in instanced content get the "best" gear and the people who play open world or wvw or pvp not? Why should the people who can't find groups because of whatever reason or don't have time to do the instanced content (due to work/school/having a life) be told that they aren't "good enough" and "can't get the shinies" because they can't/won't waste their time for the shinies? Are you saying that because you have more time to devote to that mode that you are inherently better than them? Those in the raiding elite keep talking about how people don't want to "work" for it, and are implying that the people who do NOT want to spend that kind of time doing something grindy are "lazy". That's what it seems to be saying. Which is just wrong on so many levels.... Why shouldn't there be more choices? More options for Legendary armor? Why do only the people who can get into and continuously complete that instanced content get the shinies rather than (as with legendary weapons) different types being offered in various areas? While I said I thought WvW was something I wouldn't like and I'm glad I had to do it...There's a BIG difference between WvW and raiding. I can't just jump into a raid. I can't go in and play it alone period. I could go into WvW and roam all by myself while watching map calls and learning how to play and what was needed. You can't do that with instanced anything. You have to work with a group of people and that is the difference. If there were other options to get "shinies" or to get into content and have fun you'd have less people complaining. It's about a lack of choices not about the "shinies" themselves. It's about not having the ability to say "Well, I would like to do this but I can't commit 4 hours, but I can get something like it from commiting what time I do have". It wouldn't effect you personally anymore than it effects me personally when someone is new to WvW and gets run over by the enemy zerg. Your shinies are nice, and that's great but they shouldn't be the ONLY option. The WvW legendary gear isn't "awesome" it's basic not even a skin. I can't speak for the PvP stuff but if it's like the WvW stuff it's pretty bland. Perhaps if there were more choices or the shinies for other modes were pretty cool too there'd be less complaining but the problem is that the shinies for the raiders are better., the learning curve for raiding is pretty high, and the time investment is also pretty high.... Telling people that they are "lazy" because they would like more options that aren't time sinks is pretty petty. Telling them that they're not good enough, also pretty petty. Getting "shinies" should be fun and shouldn't be locked to just one mode. Also, shinies on all modes should be "shiny" not boring... But that's a rant for another day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferelwing.8463 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > >This will already increase the average waiting times, which will drive more players to switch, snowballing the process. Note that the process happens as I describe it without a single unhappy raider. Therefore, your conclusion "if players switch then that's what they prefer* is baseless. You're either missing the whole point of my objection, or you're misinterpreting it on purpose. > > > > > > > > Let me ask you this: Say there is a player who, right now, is raiding. He's cleared every boss at least once, and every week he goes out and does at least a few raids, grinding his way toward whatever goal he has. But he definitely *does not enjoy the experience.* He is not like you, he does not enjoy the things you do, he is in it for the loot, because the raid is the ONLY place to get certain loot, but he genuinely hates the time he spends doing so, it is not fun, it is not a game, it is a *chore,* and it constantly erodes his sense of enjoyment of the game. > > > > > > > > Do you care? > > > > > > > > Do you want that player to be happy? And I don't mean "I wish he could be made happy by feeling the way I feel about raids," I mean, do you want *him* to be happy, even accepting that he will *never* enjoy raids the way you enjoy raids? > > > > > > > > Assuming not, why not? > > > > > > My question would rather be if doing the content is destroying his pleasure of the game why would he do the content. > > > > > > I understand the desire for loot but if this actually corrodes their fun in the game they shouldn't do it period. > > > > > > Imaging somebody ordering a glass of beer at a bar taking a sip and vomiting from the taste and then continue drinking and at the telling the bartender how horrible it was. I would have no sympathy with such a person. > > > > > > Of course the argument about HOT armour will arise but i do question should we care about the person who sucks the fun out of the game for himself > > > to chase some loot? > > > > He's doing it because he doesn't have any other way of getting the reward he wants to have. As a result he is grinding through something he doesn't want to do because he has ZERO options to do it any other way. > > > > How hard is that to get? > > i know why he does it. I'm just of the opinion that the health of the game (Where different modes have different rewards) is more important then the desire of 1 person. The health of the game involves the majority of the player base getting to play the majority of the content. When only a tiny portion of the playerbase get to play all of the content AND then they get a specific kind of content added for them (shinies), at the expense of the majority of the player base then it's pretty much assumed that it's bad for the overall health of the game. My annoyance at this point is that this tiny portion of the game gets the best shinies... While people who spend equal amounts of time in other modes/zones don't... So yeah, your shinies are shinier and it's kinda unfair. More options for shinies means less people being annoyed at you for getting shinies... It's not hard to get. I might have liked raiding, I'll never know because raids are hard to get into and involve lots of failing and repetition. Failing in WvW isn't nearly as irritating because instant feedback... You know if you stepped into the big pain circles it was your bad. You know that if you stood under the bubble you were going to get hurt... If you didn't dodge you know immediately what you did wrong and can correct it. Raids? My memory involves VG and the epic fails that lasted 4 hours... It was annoying there wasn't much feedback and I don't watch videos of people playing video games I play them... If I wanted to watch people play video games I'll watch professional esports. I play GW2 to play it not watch someone else play it so I can play it later. So yeah, not exactly a fun time and not something I want to repeat. If there was a training mote or a training mode I might give it a try again (something that provided feedback). Otherwise, I'll stick to something that has provided feedback. And yes, that means being annoyed that your shinies are shinier than my shinies and thinking it's a bit unfair that PVE gets the super shinies and WvW and PvP don't. I would like some better shinies myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's your own conviction. Mine is that you *will* deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? > > > > > > > > > > > > Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase. > > > > > > In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. > > > > > > > > > > Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. > > > > > > > > Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. > > > > > > > > Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? > > > > > > Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. > > > > > > So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. > > > > > > Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. > > > > The point is they introduced raids to pull more people in with the HOT expansion. to market to a specific kind of player. > > > > Honestly i don't really see where you're argument would prove me wrong. Rather it explains quite nicely why you should lock rewards to specific content. > > Well beyond the fact that HoT was a major catastrophic failure... I can't see why this was not a brilliant idea. A "major catastrophic failure" does not get followed up by two living world seasons and an expansion. A lot of people found reasons to complain about HoT. It doesn't make it a failure. A lot of people always find reasons to complain about everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's your own conviction. Mine is that you *will* deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? > > > > > > > > > > > > Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase. > > > > > > In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. > > > > > > > > > > Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. > > > > > > > > Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. > > > > > > > > Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? > > > > > > Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. > > > > > > So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. > > > > > > Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. > > > > The point is they introduced raids to pull more people in with the HOT expansion. to market to a specific kind of player. > > > > Honestly i don't really see where you're argument would prove me wrong. Rather it explains quite nicely why you should lock rewards to specific content. > > > No, you're not getting it. WvW isn't instanced. Anyone can join up and go to any map and watch map/team;/chat etc and learn where they are needed and what they need to do on the fly. They can play whatever gear they are wearing and in fact most gear (even PVE gear) isn't looked down on (you're a glass cannon and die super fast but you can at least get off a few damaging hits before you go down) as a result there's more experimentation with builds and more testing being done because your gear ISN'T stagnant. There's a wider range of classes and groups as a direct result of this. Whereas raiding requires certain gear and classes, WvW does not. WvW offers choices which raiding and, if we're being honest, PVE do not. That's my complaint, PVE is stagnant because it doesn't offer anything new to the "average" player. It doesn't offer different build paths there are exactly 2 for all but perhaps 2 classes (Rangers and Mesmers are the ONLY classes that get to have different builds I think they get up to 3 or 4 options vs everyone else's 2). If you want to play any of the other possible builds you're not invited to the party. Which is understood because PVE requires you to do a lot of damage and doesn't need you to worry about the other stats. You get some new content every 3 months or so and some cool events but then it becomes a grind fest. I don't like to grind. There, I said it, I hate grinding. I want to be challenged sure but I don't want to sit there and fail a million times over and over again nor do I want to spend 4 hours on 1 boss and sure you keep telling me that eventually I will stop having to spend 4 hours on this boss and then it will be easy, but that also requires me to put EVEN MORE time into it when I could just go to WvW and have a new fight and a new exhilarating moment with real visual queues and having actual feedback that I'm doing the right thing (or wrong thing) immediately. There's a lot of mechanics involved in knowing where to put siege, in understanding positioning in a zerg or while you're roaming alone or with a small group. All of which don't require me to study a bunch of videos, I can get it immediately. I also don't have to wait for 9 other people to join me. I can do it by myself or with a group or with a small group. But, you get the "super cool shinies" and I get "meh" shinies. So yes, please explain to me again why your shinies should be the only shinies of their type and the "best" shinies of their type but everyone else's shinies should be "less" because your small player base is more important then the rest of the player base of the game. > > So when you say it's cool to lock these "shinies" behind INSTANCED content? No, that's like comparing apples to oranges... > > What I was saying was simple: If you can only have 10 players join up to get to the content and then you have a large learning curve that involves tons of failures to get through it? While some people might find that fun(and have the time to do it), not everyone wants to spend 4 hours failing to finally finish something(if they're lucky). In fact, very few would. You are saying it was marketed to that group? GW2 was not originally for raiding , in fact that was a big selling point, a small group of people convinced the dev's to add it. That tiny portion of the overall GW2 population shouldn't get the "shinies" because they badgered the dev's to get what they wanted at the expense of everyone else. How is it reasonable to say your shinies should be the only shinies of their kind for PVE and no one else can have them unless they want to do the stuff a tiny portion of the gaming population wanted? Especially since your "shinies" only really have 2 options (unless you actually play wvw or pvp)? Why should people who are in instanced content get the "best" gear and the people who play open world or wvw or pvp not? > > Why should the people who can't find groups because of whatever reason or don't have time to do the instanced content (due to work/school/having a life) be told that they aren't "good enough" and "can't get the shinies" because they can't/won't waste their time for the shinies? Are you saying that because you have more time to devote to that mode that you are inherently better than them? Those in the raiding elite keep talking about how people don't want to "work" for it, and are implying that the people who do NOT want to spend that kind of time doing something grindy are "lazy". That's what it seems to be saying. Which is just wrong on so many levels.... Why shouldn't there be more choices? More options for Legendary armor? Why do only the people who can get into and continuously complete that instanced content get the shinies rather than (as with legendary weapons) different types being offered in various areas? > > While I said I thought WvW was something I wouldn't like and I'm glad I had to do it...There's a BIG difference between WvW and raiding. I can't just jump into a raid. I can't go in and play it alone period. I could go into WvW and roam all by myself while watching map calls and learning how to play and what was needed. You can't do that with instanced anything. You have to work with a group of people and that is the difference. If there were other options to get "shinies" or to get into content and have fun you'd have less people complaining. It's about a lack of choices not about the "shinies" themselves. It's about not having the ability to say "Well, I would like to do this but I can't commit 4 hours, but I can get something like it from commiting what time I do have". It wouldn't effect you personally anymore than it effects me personally when someone is new to WvW and gets run over by the enemy zerg. Your shinies are nice, and that's great but they shouldn't be the ONLY option. The WvW legendary gear isn't "awesome" it's basic not even a skin. I can't speak for the PvP stuff but if it's like the WvW stuff it's pretty bland. > > Perhaps if there were more choices or the shinies for other modes were pretty cool too there'd be less complaining but the problem is that the shinies for the raiders are better., the learning curve for raiding is pretty high, and the time investment is also pretty high.... Telling people that they are "lazy" because they would like more options that aren't time sinks is pretty petty. Telling them that they're not good enough, also pretty petty. > > Getting "shinies" should be fun and shouldn't be locked to just one mode. Also, shinies on all modes should be "shiny" not boring... But that's a rant for another day. Well thank you for putting words in my mouth. I never said raiders should get the best shinies. If you would have read some of my earlier posts you might have read that i'm a advocate for making the leg PvP and WvW actually have legendary skins. I personally also never had a problem with a legendary armour in open world etc. I just don't agree they should be envoy. Everyone should get something unique to their gamemode. ( Btw open world has the most unique skins atm) As noted earlier in this thread dungeons where advertised as having raid difficulty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's your own conviction. Mine is that you *will* deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase. > > > > > > > In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. > > > > > > > > > > Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? > > > > > > > > Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. > > > > > > > > So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. > > > > > > > > Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. > > > > > > The point is they introduced raids to pull more people in with the HOT expansion. to market to a specific kind of player. > > > > > > Honestly i don't really see where you're argument would prove me wrong. Rather it explains quite nicely why you should lock rewards to specific content. > > > > Well beyond the fact that HoT was a major catastrophic failure... I can't see why this was not a brilliant idea. > > A "major catastrophic failure" does not get followed up by two living world seasons and an expansion. A lot of people found reasons to complain about HoT. It doesn't make it a failure. A lot of people always find reasons to complain about everything. LOL.. what.. did you think that because HoT failed big time they would cease making Living World? Really? And PoF is nothing like HoT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's your own conviction. Mine is that you *will* deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase. > > > > > > > > In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? > > > > > > > > > > Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. > > > > > > > > > > So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. > > > > > > > > > > Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. > > > > > > > > The point is they introduced raids to pull more people in with the HOT expansion. to market to a specific kind of player. > > > > > > > > Honestly i don't really see where you're argument would prove me wrong. Rather it explains quite nicely why you should lock rewards to specific content. > > > > > > Well beyond the fact that HoT was a major catastrophic failure... I can't see why this was not a brilliant idea. > > > > A "major catastrophic failure" does not get followed up by two living world seasons and an expansion. A lot of people found reasons to complain about HoT. It doesn't make it a failure. A lot of people always find reasons to complain about everything. > > LOL.. what.. did you think that because HoT failed big time they would cease making Living World? Really? > > And PoF is nothing like HoT. ? hot was a success both commercially and technically and introduced a ton of content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > Actually, as far as i remember, whales are mostly either semi-casual (long playing time, but more casual approach) or locust players (high playing time and engagement, but extremely low loyalty and high turnover/burnout rate). The second type is mostly irrelevant for MMORPGs (but _extremely_ relevant for many browser-based games, whose business models revolve around exactly that kind of approach). With dolphins it's similar, but there's a higher percentage of hardcores there. Many hardcores are minnows, _unless_ the game posesses a strong p2w element (which is not the case in gw2). > > I don't think there is a distinction on the whale or dolphin population based on what type of content a player likes to play. The deciding factor is player loyalty and engagement, a player that plays multiple games at once is less likely to spend money on a game. A player that plays only a single game faithfully is more likely to spend money on that game. And there is anything in between those. The key is to convert players by giving them content they like, so they continue playing your game and not go play the games of others. It's why mmorpgs are so diverse games > Have you ever stopped and noticed that in a game that is all about acquiring cosmetics to show your in-game prowess, their largest money sink is selling cosmetic items in the store? In fact.. look at the store in GW2.. how little is really there for the _Hardcore_ Player. outside a few one time purchases that are limited like Bank, Storage, and Inventory slots, there is really nothing really there that a _hardcore_ player would buy. The vast majority of the store items are Casual Junk.. frivolous baubles, like pets, dyes, outfits, weapon and mount skins.. even the vast array of endless mining picks (outside maybe 2 that had a special boon attached to them) are more casual oriented, none of this is designed to market to hardcore players that get uppity about needing their Evony skin, Eternity Great Sword, and Voice in the Void title to prove how awesome they are. I mean just a quick glance at what Anet sells to survive should have clued you in where the real money was coming from.. which brings us back.. Humm... why are casuals funding content they can't play?.. and it seems many are asking themselves that very question.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's your own conviction. Mine is that you *will* deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase. > > > > > > > > > In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. > > > > > > > > > > > > So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. > > > > > > > > > > The point is they introduced raids to pull more people in with the HOT expansion. to market to a specific kind of player. > > > > > > > > > > Honestly i don't really see where you're argument would prove me wrong. Rather it explains quite nicely why you should lock rewards to specific content. > > > > > > > > Well beyond the fact that HoT was a major catastrophic failure... I can't see why this was not a brilliant idea. > > > > > > A "major catastrophic failure" does not get followed up by two living world seasons and an expansion. A lot of people found reasons to complain about HoT. It doesn't make it a failure. A lot of people always find reasons to complain about everything. > > > > LOL.. what.. did you think that because HoT failed big time they would cease making Living World? Really? > > > > And PoF is nothing like HoT. > > ? hot was a success both commercially and technically and introduced a ton of content. No it wasn't, in fact, Colin openly admitted as he left the Studio, that HoT didn't go over nearly as well as they had hoped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarrs.4831 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: >That is not a good place to be as a game developer when you have a huge jaded population. Just saying. And while.. hell you might be right.. if you wanted this game to keep going, you would want to be wrong. Honestly, it really wouldn't. If 10% of people who play this game are actively engaged with raids, that's a massive success. Really, they're not jaded or alienated or anything. Most people just aren't into raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > > Nevermind that these are just the reasons that *you* don't like raiding, not the reasons that *people* don't like raiding. 90% of people who don't currently raid won't raid no matter what you do. > > > > Source? > > > > > > Just FYI, this has been proven false in other games that used difficulty tiers with their content, as this did increase by a huge margin the number of people that got involved in Raid and Raid like content. The best known example of this would be WoW/ But there are other lesser known games that also went the rout of difficulty tiers for their content, and it not only directly increased participation overall among all difficulty tiers, it also increased training runs by casuals players to get other casual players involved in those modes at the lower/easy settings. > > Just in case anyone wants to stop bickering about the source of this. Not when you account for a majority of WoW players leaving the live version to play Vanilla-WotLK legacy servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's your own conviction. Mine is that you *will* deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? > > > > > > > > > > > > Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase. > > > > > > In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. > > > > > > > > > > Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. > > > > > > > > Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. > > > > > > > > Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? > > > > > > Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. > > > > > > So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. > > > > > > Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. > > > > The point is they introduced raids to pull more people in with the HOT expansion. to market to a specific kind of player. > > > > Honestly i don't really see where you're argument would prove me wrong. Rather it explains quite nicely why you should lock rewards to specific content. > > Well beyond the fact that HoT was a major catastrophic failure... I can't see why this was not a brilliant idea. And the hyper casual focused pre-hot Silver Wastes days were such a bigger disaster that Anet had to completely change their business model to focus on expansion packs. And your ideas for the game would put us back in that state, where everyone was miserable and Silverwastes and dry top over a year seemed about as high we should set our expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferelwing.8463 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > Actually, as far as i remember, whales are mostly either semi-casual (long playing time, but more casual approach) or locust players (high playing time and engagement, but extremely low loyalty and high turnover/burnout rate). The second type is mostly irrelevant for MMORPGs (but _extremely_ relevant for many browser-based games, whose business models revolve around exactly that kind of approach). With dolphins it's similar, but there's a higher percentage of hardcores there. Many hardcores are minnows, _unless_ the game posesses a strong p2w element (which is not the case in gw2). > > > > I don't think there is a distinction on the whale or dolphin population based on what type of content a player likes to play. The deciding factor is player loyalty and engagement, a player that plays multiple games at once is less likely to spend money on a game. A player that plays only a single game faithfully is more likely to spend money on that game. And there is anything in between those. The key is to convert players by giving them content they like, so they continue playing your game and not go play the games of others. It's why mmorpgs are so diverse games > > > > Have you ever stopped and noticed that in a game that is all about acquiring cosmetics to show your in-game prowess, their largest money sink is selling cosmetic items in the store? > > In fact.. look at the store in GW2.. how little is really there for the _Hardcore_ Player. outside a few one time purchases that are limited like Bank, Storage, and Inventory slots, there is really nothing really there that a _hardcore_ player would buy. The vast majority of the store items are Casual Junk.. frivolous baubles, like pets, dyes, outfits, weapon and mount skins.. even the vast array of endless mining picks (outside maybe 2 that had a special boon attached to them) are more casual oriented, none of this is designed to market to hardcore players that get uppity about needing their Evony skin, Eternity Great Sword, and Voice in the Void title to prove how awesome they are. This is pretty much true... Hardcore players are getting a lot of really nice things while the casuals who people nastily refer to as "whales" get all sorts of guff when they are also a large part of the funding of the game. It would be kinda nice if people would stop being nasty to the casual players whose purchases in the gemstore are doing a good deal of the funding. > > I mean just a quick glance at what Anet sells to survive should have clued you in where the real money was coming from.. which brings us back.. Humm... why are casuals funding content they can't play?.. and it seems many are asking themselves that very question.. > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's your own conviction. Mine is that you *will* deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase. > > > > > > > In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. > > > > > > > > > > Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? > > > > > > > > Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. > > > > > > > > So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. > > > > > > > > Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. > > > > > > The point is they introduced raids to pull more people in with the HOT expansion. to market to a specific kind of player. > > > > > > Honestly i don't really see where you're argument would prove me wrong. Rather it explains quite nicely why you should lock rewards to specific content. > > > > > > Getting "shinies" should be fun and shouldn't be locked to just one mode. Also, shinies on all modes should be "shiny" not boring... But that's a rant for another day. > > Well thank you for putting words in my mouth. > > I never said raiders should get the best shinies. If you would have read some of my earlier posts you might have read that i'm a advocate for making the leg PvP and WvW actually have legendary skins. I personally also never had a problem with a legendary armour in open world etc. I just don't agree they should be envoy. > > Everyone should get something unique to their gamemode. ( Btw open world has the most unique skins atm) > > As noted earlier in this thread dungeons where advertised as having raid difficulty. > > Then yes, if they gave everyone their own Legendary style skins (not necessarily envoy) for armor I'd be all for it.. I would like them to be nice shinies vs the stuff that is currently in the Legendary Armor section. I think that would cause a LOT of people to stop caring about the raiding difficulty level. Some of us might still be interested if there was some sort of training but the overall lack of choices is the whole reason people are NOT happy with the way things currently are. As for the raiding portion... If there was a nice training mode with explanations on what each thing is etc I'd be for it (tutorial for raiding would be helpful)... I will NOT absolutely will not watch a video because it is not my learning style and they are pointless because I will absolutely miss information while watching no matter how many times I watch. I like playing a game not watching other people play it. The ONLY time I watch someone else play a video game is when I'm watching LOL-Esports and that's because I no longer play League anymore but I keep up to date on the meta for the rest of the people in my house who do love to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's your own conviction. Mine is that you *will* deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase. > > > > > > > > > > In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is they introduced raids to pull more people in with the HOT expansion. to market to a specific kind of player. > > > > > > > > > > > > Honestly i don't really see where you're argument would prove me wrong. Rather it explains quite nicely why you should lock rewards to specific content. > > > > > > > > > > Well beyond the fact that HoT was a major catastrophic failure... I can't see why this was not a brilliant idea. > > > > > > > > A "major catastrophic failure" does not get followed up by two living world seasons and an expansion. A lot of people found reasons to complain about HoT. It doesn't make it a failure. A lot of people always find reasons to complain about everything. > > > > > > LOL.. what.. did you think that because HoT failed big time they would cease making Living World? Really? > > > > > > And PoF is nothing like HoT. > > > > ? hot was a success both commercially and technically and introduced a ton of content. > > No it wasn't, in fact, Colin openly admitted as he left the Studio, that HoT didn't go over nearly as well as they had hoped. 'nearly as well as they had hoped' does not equate to failure. If it was a big time failure they would not have created another expansion along same lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's your own conviction. Mine is that you *will* deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase. > > > > > > > > > > > In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is they introduced raids to pull more people in with the HOT expansion. to market to a specific kind of player. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Honestly i don't really see where you're argument would prove me wrong. Rather it explains quite nicely why you should lock rewards to specific content. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well beyond the fact that HoT was a major catastrophic failure... I can't see why this was not a brilliant idea. > > > > > > > > > > A "major catastrophic failure" does not get followed up by two living world seasons and an expansion. A lot of people found reasons to complain about HoT. It doesn't make it a failure. A lot of people always find reasons to complain about everything. > > > > > > > > LOL.. what.. did you think that because HoT failed big time they would cease making Living World? Really? > > > > > > > > And PoF is nothing like HoT. > > > > > > ? hot was a success both commercially and technically and introduced a ton of content. > > > > No it wasn't, in fact, Colin openly admitted as he left the Studio, that HoT didn't go over nearly as well as they had hoped. > > 'nearly as well as they had hoped' does not equate to failure. If it was a big time failure they would not have created another expansion along same lines. Notice.. they **didn't** create an expansion along the same lines.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunateric.3708 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's your own conviction. Mine is that you *will* deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase. > > > > > > > > > > > > In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is they introduced raids to pull more people in with the HOT expansion. to market to a specific kind of player. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Honestly i don't really see where you're argument would prove me wrong. Rather it explains quite nicely why you should lock rewards to specific content. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well beyond the fact that HoT was a major catastrophic failure... I can't see why this was not a brilliant idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > A "major catastrophic failure" does not get followed up by two living world seasons and an expansion. A lot of people found reasons to complain about HoT. It doesn't make it a failure. A lot of people always find reasons to complain about everything. > > > > > > > > > > LOL.. what.. did you think that because HoT failed big time they would cease making Living World? Really? > > > > > > > > > > And PoF is nothing like HoT. > > > > > > > > ? hot was a success both commercially and technically and introduced a ton of content. > > > > > > No it wasn't, in fact, Colin openly admitted as he left the Studio, that HoT didn't go over nearly as well as they had hoped. > > > > 'nearly as well as they had hoped' does not equate to failure. If it was a big time failure they would not have created another expansion along same lines. > > Notice.. they **didn't** create an expansion along the same lines.. Yes, they did, the formula is exactly the same for what both expansions brought. Difficulty, new feature (gliding versus mounts), e-specs and all other things that vary represent pieces of the same macro-picture. And yeah, calling HoT a failure is disingenuous at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > > > Nevermind that these are just the reasons that *you* don't like raiding, not the reasons that *people* don't like raiding. 90% of people who don't currently raid won't raid no matter what you do. > > > > > > Source? > > > > > > > > > > Just FYI, this has been proven false in other games that used difficulty tiers with their content, as this did increase by a huge margin the number of people that got involved in Raid and Raid like content. The best known example of this would be WoW/ But there are other lesser known games that also went the rout of difficulty tiers for their content, and it not only directly increased participation overall among all difficulty tiers, it also increased training runs by casuals players to get other casual players involved in those modes at the lower/easy settings. > > > > Just in case anyone wants to stop bickering about the source of this. > > Not when you account for a majority of WoW players leaving the live version to play Vanilla-WotLK legacy servers. This might be before your time.. but.. when it Launched.. WoW was an Ultra Casual game in compairosn to the other options out there, and that "majority" as it's turning out.. is not a majority at all. > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's your own conviction. Mine is that you *will* deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase. > > > > > > > In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. > > > > > > > > > > Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? > > > > > > > > Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. > > > > > > > > So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. > > > > > > > > Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. > > > > > > The point is they introduced raids to pull more people in with the HOT expansion. to market to a specific kind of player. > > > > > > Honestly i don't really see where you're argument would prove me wrong. Rather it explains quite nicely why you should lock rewards to specific content. > > > > Well beyond the fact that HoT was a major catastrophic failure... I can't see why this was not a brilliant idea. > > And the hyper casual focused pre-hot Silver Wastes days were such a bigger disaster that Anet had to completely change their business model to focus on expansion packs. Eh.. Change Model.. most MMO's use Expansions and Anet used Expansions with GW1, there was no change in anything, Successful MMO's putting out expansions is an expected model. In contrast to that.. of the top 5 most popular MMO's only 2 have raids.. WoW (of course) and GW2, (that added them in with HoT ), of which WoW was built from the ground up to be about raids, so that was to be expected they would have raids, and when GW2 put raids into their game, they watched their quarterly sales take a 30% drop. Just the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > > > > Nevermind that these are just the reasons that *you* don't like raiding, not the reasons that *people* don't like raiding. 90% of people who don't currently raid won't raid no matter what you do. > > > > > > > > Source? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just FYI, this has been proven false in other games that used difficulty tiers with their content, as this did increase by a huge margin the number of people that got involved in Raid and Raid like content. The best known example of this would be WoW/ But there are other lesser known games that also went the rout of difficulty tiers for their content, and it not only directly increased participation overall among all difficulty tiers, it also increased training runs by casuals players to get other casual players involved in those modes at the lower/easy settings. > > > > > > Just in case anyone wants to stop bickering about the source of this. > > > > Not when you account for a majority of WoW players leaving the live version to play Vanilla-WotLK legacy servers. > > This might be before your time.. but.. when it Launched.. WoW was an Ultra Casual game in compairosn to the other options out there, and that "majority" as it's turning out.. is not a majority at all. Yeah WoW was more casual than it's competators, namely Everquest. Instead of being nothing but punishing group content, WoW had a lot to do for solo players and casuals while still providing hardcore end game content. And raids weren't the only thing to do at max level. There were dungeons and questing, too. It's almost like the right way to craft MMO PvE is by creating a wide variety of content to appeal to a wide variety of people, from more to less social and more to less hardcore which is exactly what GW2 is doing. MMORPGs are the All You Can Eat buffet of gaming. There's a lot of different stuff there to appeal to a wide variety of different people. And you keep pointing at the chocolate icecream and telling everyone all the ice cream must be vanilla when you got your own tray of vanilla right there. > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's your own conviction. Mine is that you *will* deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase. > > > > > > > > In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? > > > > > > > > > > Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. > > > > > > > > > > So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. > > > > > > > > > > Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. > > > > > > > > The point is they introduced raids to pull more people in with the HOT expansion. to market to a specific kind of player. > > > > > > > > Honestly i don't really see where you're argument would prove me wrong. Rather it explains quite nicely why you should lock rewards to specific content. > > > > > > Well beyond the fact that HoT was a major catastrophic failure... I can't see why this was not a brilliant idea. > > > > And the hyper casual focused pre-hot Silver Wastes days were such a bigger disaster that Anet had to completely change their business model to focus on expansion packs. > > Eh.. Change Model.. most MMO's use Expansions and Anet used Expansions with GW1, there was no change in anything, Successful MMO's putting out expansions is an expected model. > > In contrast to that.. of the top 5 most popular MMO's only 2 have raids.. WoW (of course) and GW2, (that added them in with HoT ), of which WoW was built from the ground up to be about raids, so that was to be expected they would have raids, and when GW2 put raids into their game, they watched their quarterly sales take a 30% drop. > > Just the facts. The model change was a huge deal. For the first three years of the game the entire company was structured around LW exclusively. Arenanet did nit even begun planning for expansions until halfway through LWS2. Arenanet hoped to sustain the player base and the game just through LW and the gem shop. The decision to begin production on HoT was an emergency and required restructuring the entire content production pipeline because the game was hemorrhaging players and the pessimism in the community had reached dire levels. It's why there were huge content droughts before and after HoT. Because it turns out having a game where everyone blows through all the story in one day and all that's left are casual zerg farms with no incentive for players to care about stats, builds, or being good at the game with no reason to look for meeting people and forming groups because everything can always be pugged effortlessly was really unhealthy for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > > > > > Nevermind that these are just the reasons that *you* don't like raiding, not the reasons that *people* don't like raiding. 90% of people who don't currently raid won't raid no matter what you do. > > > > > > > > > > Source? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just FYI, this has been proven false in other games that used difficulty tiers with their content, as this did increase by a huge margin the number of people that got involved in Raid and Raid like content. The best known example of this would be WoW/ But there are other lesser known games that also went the rout of difficulty tiers for their content, and it not only directly increased participation overall among all difficulty tiers, it also increased training runs by casuals players to get other casual players involved in those modes at the lower/easy settings. > > > > > > > > Just in case anyone wants to stop bickering about the source of this. > > > > > > Not when you account for a majority of WoW players leaving the live version to play Vanilla-WotLK legacy servers. > > > > This might be before your time.. but.. when it Launched.. WoW was an Ultra Casual game in compairosn to the other options out there, and that "majority" as it's turning out.. is not a majority at all. > Yeah WoW was more casual than it's competators, namely Everquest. Instead of being nothing but punishing group content, WoW had a lot to do for solo players and casuals while still providing hardcore end game content. And raids weren't the only thing to do at max level. There were dungeons and questing, too. It's almost like the right way to craft MMO PvE is by creating a wide variety of content to appeal to a wide variety of people, from more to less social and more to less hardcore which is exactly what GW2 is doing. No.. it is what GW2 did at the start, with many paths to the same reward, with the only variable being cosmetic.. now they bottle-necked every PvE player that wants Legendary armor to have to do Raids.. real bad design right there. > The model change was a huge deal. For the first three years of the game the entire company was structured around LW exclusively. I find it hard to believe they decided |Lets give this away for free" plan as a means to sustain the game. > Arenanet did nit even begun planning for expansions until halfway through LWS2. Given the Story writers talked about how they set up the HoT story to work with Sylvari Personal Story.. I find it hard to believe they did not have an expansion planned since day 1. > Arenanet hoped to sustain the player base and the game just through LW and the gem shop. The decision to begin production on HoT was an emergency and required restructuring the entire content production pipeline because the game was hemorrhaging players and the pessimism in the community had reached dire levels. It's why there were huge content droughts before and after HoT. Because it turns out having a game where everyone blows through all the story in one day and all that's left are casual zerg farms with no incentive for players to care about stats, builds, or being good at the game with no reason to look for meeting people and forming groups because everything can always be pugged effortlessly was really unhealthy for the game. Sounds like a problem with content locusts and hardcore players.. they should have let them leave and focused more on the casuals. Given the vast inaccuracies I have read on this topic alone I am disinclined to believe any of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > > > > > > Nevermind that these are just the reasons that *you* don't like raiding, not the reasons that *people* don't like raiding. 90% of people who don't currently raid won't raid no matter what you do. > > > > > > > > > > > > Source? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just FYI, this has been proven false in other games that used difficulty tiers with their content, as this did increase by a huge margin the number of people that got involved in Raid and Raid like content. The best known example of this would be WoW/ But there are other lesser known games that also went the rout of difficulty tiers for their content, and it not only directly increased participation overall among all difficulty tiers, it also increased training runs by casuals players to get other casual players involved in those modes at the lower/easy settings. > > > > > > > > > > Just in case anyone wants to stop bickering about the source of this. > > > > > > > > Not when you account for a majority of WoW players leaving the live version to play Vanilla-WotLK legacy servers. > > > > > > This might be before your time.. but.. when it Launched.. WoW was an Ultra Casual game in compairosn to the other options out there, and that "majority" as it's turning out.. is not a majority at all. > > Yeah WoW was more casual than it's competators, namely Everquest. Instead of being nothing but punishing group content, WoW had a lot to do for solo players and casuals while still providing hardcore end game content. And raids weren't the only thing to do at max level. There were dungeons and questing, too. It's almost like the right way to craft MMO PvE is by creating a wide variety of content to appeal to a wide variety of people, from more to less social and more to less hardcore which is exactly what GW2 is doing. > > No.. it is what GW2 did at the start, with many paths to the same reward, with the only variable being cosmetic.. now they bottle-necked every PvE player that wants Legendary armor to have to do Raids.. real bad design right there. The game has always tied lot's of rewards to in game content. You wanted the Arah armor? You needed to do Arah. Wanted Ghastly weapons? You needed to do AC. We should want more rewards tied to in game content, not less. Legendary Armor being tied to actual content and not just something you can effortless buy off the TP or Gem Store is a good thing. That is the definition of good game design because it actually gets people playing the game more. > > > The model change was a huge deal. For the first three years of the game the entire company was structured around LW exclusively. Arenanet did nit even begun planning for expansions until halfway through LWS2. Arenanet hoped to sustain the player base and the game just through LW and the gem shop. The decision to begin production on HoT was an emergency and required restructuring the entire content production pipeline because the game was hemorrhaging players and the pessimism in the community had reached dire levels. It's why there were huge content droughts before and after HoT. Because it turns out having a game where everyone blows through all the story in one day and all that's left are casual zerg farms with no incentive for players to care about stats, builds, or being good at the game with no reason to look for meeting people and forming groups because everything can always be pugged effortlessly was really unhealthy for the game. > > And you know this how? > > Given the vast inaccuracies I have read on this topic alone I am disinclined to believe this. That's literally what happened. I was there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > > > > > > > Nevermind that these are just the reasons that *you* don't like raiding, not the reasons that *people* don't like raiding. 90% of people who don't currently raid won't raid no matter what you do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Source? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just FYI, this has been proven false in other games that used difficulty tiers with their content, as this did increase by a huge margin the number of people that got involved in Raid and Raid like content. The best known example of this would be WoW/ But there are other lesser known games that also went the rout of difficulty tiers for their content, and it not only directly increased participation overall among all difficulty tiers, it also increased training runs by casuals players to get other casual players involved in those modes at the lower/easy settings. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just in case anyone wants to stop bickering about the source of this. > > > > > > > > > > Not when you account for a majority of WoW players leaving the live version to play Vanilla-WotLK legacy servers. > > > > > > > > This might be before your time.. but.. when it Launched.. WoW was an Ultra Casual game in compairosn to the other options out there, and that "majority" as it's turning out.. is not a majority at all. > > > Yeah WoW was more casual than it's competators, namely Everquest. Instead of being nothing but punishing group content, WoW had a lot to do for solo players and casuals while still providing hardcore end game content. And raids weren't the only thing to do at max level. There were dungeons and questing, too. It's almost like the right way to craft MMO PvE is by creating a wide variety of content to appeal to a wide variety of people, from more to less social and more to less hardcore which is exactly what GW2 is doing. > > > > No.. it is what GW2 did at the start, with many paths to the same reward, with the only variable being cosmetic.. now they bottle-necked every PvE player that wants Legendary armor to have to do Raids.. real bad design right there. > > The game has always tied lot's of rewards to in game content. You wanted the Arah armor? You needed to do Arah. Wanted Ghastly weapons? You needed to do AC. All of which was just re-skinned exotic armor, which could be easily crafted and dropped in other content. My point still stands. > > We should want more rewards tied to in game content, not less. Legendary Armor being tied to actual content and not just something you can effortless buy off the TP or Gem Store is a good thing. That is the definition of good game design because it actually gets people playing the game more. It's a great design.. if you like losing 9/10ths of your population. > > > > > The model change was a huge deal. For the first three years of the game the entire company was structured around LW exclusively. Arenanet did nit even begun planning for expansions until halfway through LWS2. Arenanet hoped to sustain the player base and the game just through LW and the gem shop. The decision to begin production on HoT was an emergency and required restructuring the entire content production pipeline because the game was hemorrhaging players and the pessimism in the community had reached dire levels. It's why there were huge content droughts before and after HoT. Because it turns out having a game where everyone blows through all the story in one day and all that's left are casual zerg farms with no incentive for players to care about stats, builds, or being good at the game with no reason to look for meeting people and forming groups because everything can always be pugged effortlessly was really unhealthy for the game. > > > > And you know this how? > > > > Given the vast inaccuracies I have read on this topic alone I am disinclined to believe this. > > That's literally what happened. I was there. Given how biased your stand here is in this topic alone, I am even less inclined to believe the factuality of your claims.. and oh yah.. I was there too.. how about that.. and I remember it quite differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > > > > > > > > Nevermind that these are just the reasons that *you* don't like raiding, not the reasons that *people* don't like raiding. 90% of people who don't currently raid won't raid no matter what you do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Source? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just FYI, this has been proven false in other games that used difficulty tiers with their content, as this did increase by a huge margin the number of people that got involved in Raid and Raid like content. The best known example of this would be WoW/ But there are other lesser known games that also went the rout of difficulty tiers for their content, and it not only directly increased participation overall among all difficulty tiers, it also increased training runs by casuals players to get other casual players involved in those modes at the lower/easy settings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just in case anyone wants to stop bickering about the source of this. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not when you account for a majority of WoW players leaving the live version to play Vanilla-WotLK legacy servers. > > > > > > > > > > This might be before your time.. but.. when it Launched.. WoW was an Ultra Casual game in compairosn to the other options out there, and that "majority" as it's turning out.. is not a majority at all. > > > > Yeah WoW was more casual than it's competators, namely Everquest. Instead of being nothing but punishing group content, WoW had a lot to do for solo players and casuals while still providing hardcore end game content. And raids weren't the only thing to do at max level. There were dungeons and questing, too. It's almost like the right way to craft MMO PvE is by creating a wide variety of content to appeal to a wide variety of people, from more to less social and more to less hardcore which is exactly what GW2 is doing. > > > > > > No.. it is what GW2 did at the start, with many paths to the same reward, with the only variable being cosmetic.. now they bottle-necked every PvE player that wants Legendary armor to have to do Raids.. real bad design right there. > > > > The game has always tied lot's of rewards to in game content. You wanted the Arah armor? You needed to do Arah. Wanted Ghastly weapons? You needed to do AC. > > All of which was just re-skinned exotic armor, which could be easily crafted and dropped in other content. Legendary Armor is ascended in quality. Not having legendary doesnt put you at a disadvantage. Legendary equipment is supposed to be special and rare and difficult to get. And if 50% of the population had legendary armor like with it would devastate the game's economy because no matter how many expansions come out no one will ever care about gears or runes again. It's explicitly why legendary weapons don't have that functionality. > > My point still stands. > > > > > We should want more rewards tied to in game content, not less. Legendary Armor being tied to actual content and not just something you can effortless buy off the TP or Gem Store is a good thing. That is the definition of good game design because it actually gets people playing the game more. > > It's a great design.. if you like losing 9/10ths of your population. Remember when WoW originally released and no one ever bought it because they heard you had to do certain content to get certain gear and it ended up being one of the biggest flops in gaming? Or when GW2 released and people saw the ghastly greatsword was only available from AC and everyone just said "nah" and all 12 million people that bought the game left and no one plays it anymore? Putting weapons and armor sets on the gem store isn't done because it's good enjoyable game design. It's done as a necessary evil to keep the game profitable without a sub fee. > > > > > > > > The model change was a huge deal. For the first three years of the game the entire company was structured around LW exclusively. Arenanet did nit even begun planning for expansions until halfway through LWS2. Arenanet hoped to sustain the player base and the game just through LW and the gem shop. The decision to begin production on HoT was an emergency and required restructuring the entire content production pipeline because the game was hemorrhaging players and the pessimism in the community had reached dire levels. It's why there were huge content droughts before and after HoT. Because it turns out having a game where everyone blows through all the story in one day and all that's left are casual zerg farms with no incentive for players to care about stats, builds, or being good at the game with no reason to look for meeting people and forming groups because everything can always be pugged effortlessly was really unhealthy for the game. > > > > > > And you know this how? > > > > > > Given the vast inaccuracies I have read on this topic alone I am disinclined to believe this. > > > > That's literally what happened. I was there. > > Given how biased your stand here is in this topic alone, I am even less inclined to believe the factuality of your claims.. and oh yah.. I was there too.. how about that.. and I remember it quite differently. > Every time Arenanet was asked about boxed expansions they delivered a flat "We are not working on expansions. We're only working on live updates. " The entire team were focused on LW until they were preparing to announce HoT. It's why it took almost a year for HoT to come out after it was announced. Because they barely began working on it. Just go back and look at the forums, or the comments on WP and see how desperate the community was for bigger better content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > It's a great design.. if you like losing 9/10ths of your population. > Remember when WoW originally released and no one ever bought it because they heard you had to do certain content to get certain gear and it ended up being one of the biggest flops in gaming? > I was still playing EQ when WoW was launched, and listening to the _hardcore_ players fussing that instance based content as opposed to server specific rare spawn mobs with rare named loot and everyone being able to get the best loot was going to destroy MMO's. They went on and on about how that there needed to be a single boss per server that only spawned once week, so that only the skilled players would get the top level loot and how anything else would ruin the whole idea of a game. The WoW developers wisely ignored them, and pretty much made the MMO that all the EQ casuals wanted, and as irony would have it they coincidentally incorporated a lot of the suggestions and requests that were made on the old EQ forums, it was almost as if they were taking notes, which was not anywhere near as ironic for those that were there, and lo and behold, WoW shot up.. and EQ tanked shortly thereafter. See, the elitist back then had the same mentality to what you are saying now.. good thing WoW ignored them and made a super casual game by compairosn, and, you know, every game after following that trend. See, the toxic self-serving elitist mindset hasn't changed and the only constant is that you side has been wrong and bad for game development.. since the dawn of MMO's. Anet I guess.. has chosen to learn this the hard way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > It's a great design.. if you like losing 9/10ths of your population. > > Remember when WoW originally released and no one ever bought it because they heard you had to do certain content to get certain gear and it ended up being one of the biggest flops in gaming? > > > > I was still playing EQ when WoW was launched, and listening to the _hardcore_ players fussing that instance based content as opposed to server specific rare spawn mobs with rare named loot and everyone being able to get the best loot was going to destroy MMO's. They went on and on about how that there needed to be a single boss per server that only spawned once week, so that only the skilled players would get the top level loot and how anything else would ruin the whole idea of a game. > > The WoW developers wisely ignored them, and pretty much made the MMO that all the EQ casuals wanted, and as irony would have it they coincidentally incorporated a lot of the suggestions and requests that were made on the old EQ forums, it was almost as if they were taking notes, which was not anywhere near as ironic for those that were there, and lo and behold, WoW shot up.. and EQ tanked shortly thereafter. > > See, the elitist back then had the same mentality to what you are saying now.. good thing WoW ignored them and made a super casual game by compairosn, and, you know, every game after following that trend. > > See, the toxic self-serving elitist mindset hasn't changed and the only constant is that you side has been wrong and bad for game development.. since the dawn of MMO's. > > Anet I guess.. has chosen to learn this the hard way. Vanilla WoW had tons of innovations that helped make it a smash phenomenon. And yeah, it was no where near as hardcore as Everquest to it's immense benefit. But it was by no means a casual game. Getting the best equipment demanded things from you. And then WoW released cataclysm, then Pandara, then Draenor. Draenor being the most casual, where you could sit in your base all day doing nothing while your followers delivered top tier gear for you. And WoW's population plummeted. By people tracking server populations across regions WoW dropped below 1 million active users during Draenor. If we take total sales from Legion (3.3 million)as representative of WoWs current population there are more people playing on private legacy Vanilla, BC, and WotLK than live World of Warcraft. So many more players and demand for official legacy servers Blizzard announced WoW classic to try and tap into the audience playing the older version of their game. It's almost like there is a sliding scale, where something can be too hardcore OR too casual and that maybe turning the game into "Sit in your base and wait for loot" like you want GW2 to become is going too far. Sort of like a goldilocks principle. At the end of the day games are exercises in controlled adversity. Sometimes it's okay ro make some aspects more convenient. But eventually you'll go so far there ceases to be a game anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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