Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> Just gonna say, I don't see how it would be worth the grind for "bits and pieces" which is why I endorse going after the Legendary Armor from sPvP or WvW, if the armor tier is what you are after.

 

Well, like I said, I would never do the existing raids, but if there were easy mode ones, they'd be pretty fun, and offer decent generic loot, and offer progress towards the raid shop stuff, so it would overall be a system worth engaging in. I went through four seasons of hell for The Ascension, some time spent in easy mode raids for 6-10 armor pieces isn't a bad deal.

 

 

 

[nia.4725]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> >But.. it's Sooooooo Ugly...

>

> In sum total, yes, most of them are ugly. I would probably only take on bits and pieces of the light and mediums even if I had them. I like the heavy though, and would use all or most of the bits from that one.

>

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > I literally do not use the griffon for anythig besides that use in raids xD

>

> Yeah, but even just hopping around the Aerodrome would be fun!

 

Maybe. But I don't spend much time in the aerodrome nowadays, since I don't pug anymore. I just get into my squad and into the raid instance : v getting the griffon would be cool, but when I see those collections it's like... Nope thank you. I hate items tied to events.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > >But.. it's Sooooooo Ugly...

> >

> > In sum total, yes, most of them are ugly. I would probably only take on bits and pieces of the light and mediums even if I had them. I like the heavy though, and would use all or most of the bits from that one.

> >

> > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > I literally do not use the griffon for anythig besides that use in raids xD

> >

> > Yeah, but even just hopping around the Aerodrome would be fun!

>

> Maybe. But I don't spend much time in the aerodrome nowadays, since I don't pug anymore. I just get into my squad and into the raid instance : v getting the griffon would be cool, but when I see those collections it's like... Nope thank you. I hate items tied to events.

 

K. It's really casual compared to some of them though, I think they are guaranteed drops. I suppose it might take a little more time waiting around these days though since there are less people farming for Griffons at once.

[tim.4596]

> @"Lonami.2987" said:

> This is a heated topic, but let's have a serious discussion about it.

>

> ---

>

> **Raids are not profitable for ArenaNet**

>

> Let me say this clearly: I do raid, and I love challenging content, but I have many friends who are utter noobs, and can't learn to raid with what we have now. They simply can't. Don't start lecturing me about training groups and whatever. They can't.

>

> *Then they don't deserve raiding.*

>

> No one has entitlement to any game mode ever, specially hardcore players, who are pretty much those contributing the less to the game's finances, since they already have a lot of gold and convert it to gems instead of using real money. If we went by a simple metric of what is good for *this game*, raids are pretty much at the bottom. ArenaNet would make more money by just releasing open world zergfest content, than with raids. Raids are a special snowflake, and that's why it can't hold on forever, not like this.

>

> Hell, if tomorrow they scrapped raiding altogether, and started doing dungeons again, you think the happy people wouldn't outnumber the angry people? Think about it.

>

> Raids are neither viable nor profitable being exclusive content. We need more raiders.

>

> ---

>

> **Lack of difficulty modes is hurting hardcore raiding**

>

> I like my raids hard, and I guess many raiders do as well. I absolutely despise some of the easier bosses, specially escort and trio, and I believe the challenge motes from W4 should have been the default gameplay option for those bosses.

>

> Why does ArenaNet put in those easy bosses in, then? It's pretty clear, and you don't need to be a genius. They're there for the noobs.

>

> Because there's no easy/normal/hard mode distinction, all those difficulty levels are shoved in inside the same single raid mode. Because, as the point above shows, raids are not profitable if only the 1% experiences them.

>

> We'll keep getting things like escort as long as there's no difficulty modes. All of you arguing against difficulty modes because raids need to stay hard and only hard, you're shooting yourselves in the face, and I hope you enjoy easy bosses and dumb filler events, because we'll keep getting them. Not like the normal bosses are too hard, either. I think VG was 2-manned a few days ago? Looking good for raid difficulty, eh?

>

> ---

>

> **Difficulty modes would be healthy for raids**

>

> First of all, difficulty modes don't invalidate each other. If you like the hard mode, you'll stay there. Noobs enjoying raids in easy mode doesn't affect you in any way. Are fractals ruined because you can select a level between 1 and 100? Is the top PvP league ruined by the lower leagues? I don't think so. Players start at the bottom, and once they learn, they start climbing higher, because no one wants to play easy mode forever, specially because when you go higher, fights and the rewards become better. Training sessions are lame, because you rely on other people willing to sacrifice their time to just help you. Noobs want to experience the content themselves, at their own pace, not wipe and wipe again and again. That should come later, once they've learned the basics and leave the easy mode.

>

> Second, a difficulty split removes the need for casual events like escort and trio. Now the hard raid can be 100% hard, and not rely on pointless free LI filler. Even more, we can get a REAL hard mode, only for the 1%, pretty much like fractal challenge motes, where the content gets really crazy, and the best players don't have to waste their time doing the normal difficulty bosses naked or with half the party, which kinda ruins the image of raids.

>

> ---

>

> **Implementation ideas**

>

> Let's use Vale Guardian as the example:

>

> * **Easy mode:** Failing a green does much less damage (no wiping), blues teleport you closer, the boss and the red spark do less damage, and less CC required. Magnetite, one exotic, and chance for common ascended rewards per weekly kill. Some of the achievements and vendor options would be disabled.

> * **Normal mode:** Current situation. Magnetite, one exotic, one legendary insight, and chance for any of the vendor rewards per weekly kill.

> * **Hard mode:** Two simultaneous green spawns, blues stay as AoE a few seconds after spawning, and red sparks pull you gravitationally. Magnetite, one exotic, and guaranteed vendor reward per weekly kill.

>

> Completing a boss in a mode will autocomplete all the bosses below it, and give you its rewards as well, so if you complete VG normal mode, you get normal and easy mode rewards, kinda like fractal daily chests.

>

> As you see, you don't need a lot to split difficulty modes. A few changes here and there should make it easier for noobs. Hard mode can be more challenging to design, but since it's *the hard mode*, they can go really crazy and don't worry about a fair fight too much. A hard mode could be very cool to stream and watch, too.

>

> ---

>

> I would hate to see raids disappear at some point in the future, and I want them to stay strong and healthy, *for everyone*, casual, dedicated, or hardcore. The above is my opinion on how to achieve this, but it's just that, my opinion.

>

> So that's it. Feel free to vote in the poll, and whatever your opinion is, please express it civilly below.

 

I really like everything you say, however your poll question are really buyers, serving your main idea. I think it would be best if you ask general question and separate the polls question in two (difficulty and what can be done about it)

 

For example:

Raids are too hard

Raids are too easy

Raids are good difficulty

 

And then maybe ask a 2nd batch of poll questions regarding what can be done about it.

 

Raids should have difficulty and easy mode etc...

 

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > the answer to that would be _No_

> > >

> > > You don't find the game fun to play, and entertaining enough for the money you paid for it, because they have Raids and the Envoy Armor is a Raid reward?

> >

> > In case your memory has failed you so quickly.. this was your _Actual Question_.

> >

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > The better question is, does everything that you care about in the game, for its price, satisfy you?

> >

> > Just thought you would like to read that again.. since you made all kinds of wrong assumptions.. when I said _No_ to this.

>

> How are those two questions the same question? I asked if everything you care about is enough for the price you paid for it or not.

> You said no, and I'm asking a second question, for clarification, if it's because of Raids and the Envoy Armor. You know, to stay on the topic of the sub-forum and the thread. Two separate questions.

 

They way you phrased it, it came across as rhetorical.

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > and all you gain from doing that padding your post count and keeping the topic alive, as such, you are just as much responsible for this topic being 60+ pages as anyone. Don't go blaming anyone else for what is your doing.

>

> Considering you've said yourself that you think these threads are pointless and won't accomplish anything, don't you think that's the pot calling the kettle black?

 

**Not at all**

 

I take full responsibility for my great many additions to this topic and do not try to put the blame on anyone else for this topics continued undying progression.. unlike.. oh this poster.

 

> @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> Most of the reason this thread is so long is because one person in particular isn't interested in 'legendary armor', they're interested in Envoy skins, and that one person doesn't like WvW or sPvP either. We'd be at something like page 20 if that weren't the case.

 

And, truth is, At this point, this discussion is pointless, it is not a matter of my feels on the situation, the Developers have clearly said Raids will not change as such,There is nothing left here other then witty banter, digs and jabs at each other, with the hope we dance the line well enough to not get infractions.

 

With that said.. WvW is a great alternate to Raids for players that enjoy Open World Content.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > Just gonna say, I don't see how it would be worth the grind for "bits and pieces" which is why I endorse going after the Legendary Armor from sPvP or WvW, if the armor tier is what you are after.

>

> Well, like I said, I would never do the existing raids, but if there were easy mode ones, they'd be pretty fun, and offer decent generic loot, and offer progress towards the raid shop stuff, so it would overall be a system worth engaging in. I went through four seasons of hell for The Ascension, some time spent in easy mode raids for 6-10 armor pieces isn't a bad deal.

>

 

As I said, the way they put Raids in was really _really_ bad, it has no logical relation to anything else in the game in regards to how it's been put in or functions, there is no coherent progression to them in difficulty or design.

 

But things are what they are at this point.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > Nah, the game is far more PvE oriented than PvP/WvW. Look at the amount of content and its updates. So they aren't going to put a major feature in one of its side modes exclusively, or first.

> > They did that with legendary armor though (only side content so far). And with the backpacks (PvP first, then fractals, then WvW). Besides, we have already legendaries from LS (aurora) and raids (coalescence). Next is likely either one or both of PvP modes.

> >

> >

>

> Fractals and raids are PvE.

Raids were, and still are a side mode, and the game still claims to not be raid oriented, so legendary armor _is_ an example of a "major feature put into one of game's side modes exclusively or first". So, exactly of what you said Anet's not going to do.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > Nah, the game is far more PvE oriented than PvP/WvW. Look at the amount of content and its updates. So they aren't going to put a major feature in one of its side modes exclusively, or first.

> > > They did that with legendary armor though (only side content so far). And with the backpacks (PvP first, then fractals, then WvW). Besides, we have already legendaries from LS (aurora) and raids (coalescence). Next is likely either one or both of PvP modes.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Fractals and raids are PvE.

> Raids were, and still are a side mode

 

No they aren't. Not any more than t4 fractals are "side mode" or explorable dungeons are "side mode".

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > Fractals and raids are PvE.

> > Raids were, and still are a side mode

>

> No they aren't. Not any more than t4 fractals are "side mode" or explorable dungeons are "side mode".

 

I totally agree that T4 Fractals are very "side mode", niche' content right along with Raids, yup.. gonna say you're right.. They are along the same lines in that a very limited amount of players do that content at all, I'd bet its' around the same % of players who do Raids and T4 Fractals.

 

And Dungeons? After Anet openly admitted are dead abandoned failures as far as they are concerned, I am most assured are the least active of any of the instance content.

 

So.. yes.. yes they are "side mode".. all of them.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > Nah, the game is far more PvE oriented than PvP/WvW. Look at the amount of content and its updates. So they aren't going to put a major feature in one of its side modes exclusively, or first.

> > > > They did that with legendary armor though (only side content so far). And with the backpacks (PvP first, then fractals, then WvW). Besides, we have already legendaries from LS (aurora) and raids (coalescence). Next is likely either one or both of PvP modes.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Fractals and raids are PvE.

> > Raids were, and still are a side mode

>

> No they aren't. Not any more than t4 fractals are "side mode" or explorable dungeons are "side mode".

Whether something is a side mode depends on both its popularity, and on whether the content is designed with the intention of being meant as a niche or not.

 

So, fractals and dungeons _are_ side modes, although, considering their popularity numbers, they are a less of a side mode than raids. AC, with the 60% completion rate from efficiency could even be argued to have moved from that "side" content to the mainstream.

 

So, t4 fractals and dungeons _are_ side modes, and raids are even more of a side modes than them.

 

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > Nah, the game is far more PvE oriented than PvP/WvW. Look at the amount of content and its updates. So they aren't going to put a major feature in one of its side modes exclusively, or first.

> > > > > They did that with legendary armor though (only side content so far). And with the backpacks (PvP first, then fractals, then WvW). Besides, we have already legendaries from LS (aurora) and raids (coalescence). Next is likely either one or both of PvP modes.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Fractals and raids are PvE.

> > > Raids were, and still are a side mode

> >

> > No they aren't. Not any more than t4 fractals are "side mode" or explorable dungeons are "side mode".

> Whether something is a side mode depends on both its popularity, and on whether the content is designed with the intention of being meant as a niche or not.

>

> So, fractals and dungeons _are_ side modes, although, considering their popularity numbers, they are a less of a side mode than raids. AC, with the 60% completion rate from efficiency could even be argued to have moved from that "side" content to the mainstream.

>

> So, t4 fractals and dungeons _are_ side modes, and raids are even more of a side modes than them.

>

 

the main factor is design intent. Raids are designed for a niche gameplay style whereas dungeons and fractals are designed for the masses.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > Nah, the game is far more PvE oriented than PvP/WvW. Look at the amount of content and its updates. So they aren't going to put a major feature in one of its side modes exclusively, or first.

> > > > > > They did that with legendary armor though (only side content so far). And with the backpacks (PvP first, then fractals, then WvW). Besides, we have already legendaries from LS (aurora) and raids (coalescence). Next is likely either one or both of PvP modes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Fractals and raids are PvE.

> > > > Raids were, and still are a side mode

> > >

> > > No they aren't. Not any more than t4 fractals are "side mode" or explorable dungeons are "side mode".

> > Whether something is a side mode depends on both its popularity, and on whether the content is designed with the intention of being meant as a niche or not.

> >

> > So, fractals and dungeons _are_ side modes, although, considering their popularity numbers, they are a less of a side mode than raids. AC, with the 60% completion rate from efficiency could even be argued to have moved from that "side" content to the mainstream.

> >

> > So, t4 fractals and dungeons _are_ side modes, and raids are even more of a side modes than them.

> >

>

> the main factor is design intent. Raids are designed for a niche gameplay style whereas dungeons and fractals are designed for the masses.

 

Yes, and even then, there's no harm in bad design, *so long as they don't leave it that way.* So if they designed a system one way, and the players did not react to it as they expected, that's ok, so long as they are willing to get back in there and make it work more to the players' expectations. It only becomes a *problem* if they just let it sit there, broken, indefinitely, or if they say "well, it was broken, and some people played it anyway, so we can't fix it without 'devaluing their efforts.'"

[tim.4596]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> I don't particularly prefer the content getting easier over time, I just want the content to be easy *enough* from the start, which raids, currently, are not. I just see "the content gets easier over time" to be superior to "the content will *never* be easy enough."

 

What are we talking about here? Starting up with an entire group of new player and getting to do raids as a progression raid or joining a fully experienced raid group? Because I feel like those two things are very different and in most cases, if a new player were to want to get into raids and join a raiding guild tomorrow. He would most likely end up clearing most W1-4 bosses (with the exception of Xera and Deimos maybe) as most player in the raid group would already have a basic knowledge of raids or cleared it multiple times. As those raids have been out for a very long time.

 

> All this could be solved by just adding an easy mode.

 

Are you saying that the new raid to be released should have an easy (because I would agree with that) or that all raids should be rework and have an easy mode? (Because, I don't think that is necessary, and would be a waste of time and resources on Anet part in my opinion)

 

> >Also I don't have the Griffon. The other mounts do everything I need.

>

> Seriously? You guys are boggling my mind. How can you play GW2 and not have a griffon?

 

Yes, please I am curious too? Do you guys not know how truly game changing the gryphon is. If you need an example, think of GW2 experience with the glider and without the glider. Or auto-loot and no auto-loot.

 

Flying or walking guys for 250g !! Your choices! Do you really need to save up for another skin or should you get the gryphon instead if you don't already have it.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > Nah, the game is far more PvE oriented than PvP/WvW. Look at the amount of content and its updates. So they aren't going to put a major feature in one of its side modes exclusively, or first.

> > > > > They did that with legendary armor though (only side content so far). And with the backpacks (PvP first, then fractals, then WvW). Besides, we have already legendaries from LS (aurora) and raids (coalescence). Next is likely either one or both of PvP modes.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Fractals and raids are PvE.

> > > Raids were, and still are a side mode

> >

> > No they aren't. Not any more than t4 fractals are "side mode" or explorable dungeons are "side mode".

> Whether something is a side mode depends on both its popularity, and on whether the content is designed with the intention of being meant as a niche or not.

 

No it doesn't. The fact something is (and is intended to be) niche *content* doesn't make it a different *game mode*. Raids are PvE. Just like any other instanced content, and just like the open world. Players group up and fight together against the game. PvE. The very definition of it.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"tim.4596" said:

> What are we talking about here? Starting up with an entire group of new player and getting to do raids as a progression raid or joining a fully experienced raid group?

 

Jumping into the first pug that comes along on LFG, and standing a reasonable chance of success, same as any normal dungeon. I think that "experienced groups," "joining a raid guild," and "progression raiding" is all well and good for those that enjoy such a thing, and the normal/hard mode *should* exist for that purpose, but it's not for everyone, and there should be a mode for people who just wan to log in, LFG and be into the raid within minutes, and complete it with little to no screwing around.

 

>Are you saying that the new raid to be released should have an easy (because I would agree with that) or that all raids should be rework and have an easy mode? (Because, I don't think that is necessary, and would be a waste of time and resources on Anet part in my opinion)

 

"Just for the new one" would not solve the accessibility issues of the existing ones. The goal is to make them *all* something that casuals can engage with, to fully access the story, encounter mechanics, and reward chains contained within. My hope is that a suitably simple-in-design easy mode would not take up an unnecessary amount of the developer's time or resources, since 90%+ of the content that goes into a raid would already exist. I think that if they can make one easy mode, they should be able to pump out all of them within a reasonable timeframe.

[tim.4596]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> "Just for the new one" would not solve the accessibility issues of the existing ones. The goal is to make them *all* something that casuals can engage with, to fully access the story, encounter mechanics, and reward chains contained within. My hope is that a suitably simple-in-design easy mode would not take up an unnecessary amount of the developer's time or resources, since 90%+ of the content that goes into a raid would already exist. I think that if they can make one easy mode, they should be able to pump out all of them within a reasonable timeframe.

 

Okay, I see your point. It would be interesting to know how many people are actually interested into raids though, just to see if it would be worth to make an easy mode for _every encounter_. The best solution at the moment, I believe, would be to make an In-game bestiary of the current raid boss and have clear explanation about what the bosses do and how to counter it. It could also have some links to the GW2-wiki somewhat similar to what GW1 implemented at some point.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> No it doesn't. The fact something is (and is intended to be) niche *content* doesn't make it a different *game mode*. Raids are PvE. Just like any other instanced content, and just like the open world. Players group up and fight together against the game. PvE. The very definition of it.

If we go that way, both WvW and SPvP would be one gamemode as well - PvP. The only meaningful distinction between them is the number of participants on a map.

Raids are a different mode. They may be a PvE mode (just like both SPvP and WvW are PvP game modes), but it's still a very much separate mode.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > No it doesn't. The fact something is (and is intended to be) niche *content* doesn't make it a different *game mode*. Raids are PvE. Just like any other instanced content, and just like the open world. Players group up and fight together against the game. PvE. The very definition of it.

> If we go that way, both WvW and SPvP would be one gamemode as well - PvP. The only meaningful distinction between them is the number of participants on a map.

> Raids are a different mode. They may be a PvE mode (just like both SPvP and WvW are PvP game modes), but it's still a very much separate mode.

>

>

 

Raids differ from open world in two (and only two) aspects: a) being instanced content, and b) difficulty. Neither of these are unique to raids. Not even their combination is. Care to explain what is the magical property that makes them "separate"?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"tim.4596" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > "Just for the new one" would not solve the accessibility issues of the existing ones. The goal is to make them *all* something that casuals can engage with, to fully access the story, encounter mechanics, and reward chains contained within. My hope is that a suitably simple-in-design easy mode would not take up an unnecessary amount of the developer's time or resources, since 90%+ of the content that goes into a raid would already exist. I think that if they can make one easy mode, they should be able to pump out all of them within a reasonable timeframe.

>

> Okay, I see your point. It would be interesting to know how many people are actually interested into raids though, just to see if it would be worth to make an easy mode for _every encounter_. The best solution at the moment, I believe, would be to make an In-game bestiary of the current raid boss and have clear explanation about what the bosses do and how to counter it. It could also have some links to the GW2-wiki somewhat similar to what GW1 implemented at some point.

 

Do you mean basically like a tutorial for the bosses so that people would be more capable of just jumping into the existing raid? I mean, that isn't a bad idea in and of itself, but 1. it would probably actually be harder than an easy mode, since it would need to reframe the encounter as a teaching aid, with all sorts of pauses and pop-ups or something, 2. it might make some players able to get into raiding easier, but it wouldn't fulfill the point of just making the raid itself a more casual experience, most of the practical barriers to raiding would still apply.

 

As for how many people would want it, that's hard for anyone outside the game to determine. They would have to do some scientific polling or something.

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > No it doesn't. The fact something is (and is intended to be) niche *content* doesn't make it a different *game mode*. Raids are PvE. Just like any other instanced content, and just like the open world. Players group up and fight together against the game. PvE. The very definition of it.

> If we go that way, both WvW and SPvP would be one gamemode as well - PvP. The only meaningful distinction between them is the number of participants on a map.

> Raids are a different mode. They may be a PvE mode (just like both SPvP and WvW are PvP game modes), but it's still a very much separate mode.

 

Yup. If raids are "just part of PvE", then WvW is just "open world PvP," and sPvP is just "instanced/dungeon PvP."

[nia.4725]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Yup. If raids are "just part of PvE", then WvW is just "open world PvP," and sPvP is just "instanced/dungeon PvP."

 

No. Raids are PvE and it's obvious -it has the same combat system as PvE, you access them via PvE-Open world, it uses the same build template as the rest of PvE. So > raids are PvE.

 

PvP and WvW are not accessible from the same place. PvP has its own areas, that you join by opening a specific menu. It has its own system and way of playing. WvW is accessible from a different menu -and some gates in Lion's arch-, has its own rules and system DIFFERENT from PvP and even has a different build template than PvP (talking about traits here).

 

So no, it can't be compared. You're comparing concepts ("playing against players" vs "playing against environment"), but the truth is that PvP and WvW are far more different than that and are played in completely different ways and places.

 

 

[Etria.3642]

The trouble is not MY willingness to repeat the fights until I learn them. The trouble is the willingness of OTHER people. I really didn't believe in the 'toxicity' of the raiding community until I tried it. Wow. Show your achievements or you can't come. This is a learning raid but of we wipe twice I'm outta here for a experienced group. Race through the fight asap. Explain nothing. Voice? Ltp newb. Why don't you just buy a run if you don't know it. Not ready yet? Too bad we can get this fight down without you. Good luck next time.

 

It isn't the raid difficulty that needs fixing its the raiders.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Etria.3642" said:

> The trouble is not MY willingness to repeat the fights until I learn them. The trouble is the willingness of OTHER people. I really didn't believe in the 'toxicity' of the raiding community until I tried it. Wow. Show your achievements or you can't come. This is a learning raid but of we wipe twice I'm outta here for a experienced group. Race through the fight asap. Explain nothing. Voice? Ltp newb. Why don't you just buy a run if you don't know it. Not ready yet? Too bad we can get this fight down without you. Good luck next time.

>

> It isn't the raid difficulty that needs fixing its the raiders.

 

Try looking from their perspective. Experienced raiders are long past what you're trying to accomplish. Although I do question their decision to join a training group in the first place, if they don't have the patience to see it through. Unfortunately that's how it works - some people have to devote a lot of time and effort to teach some curious casual players about raiding. And the worst part is, most of it will be in vain, as not everyone will end up raiding. Respect these people and their effort.

[nia.4725]

> @"Etria.3642" said:

> The trouble is not MY willingness to repeat the fights until I learn them. The trouble is the willingness of OTHER people. I really didn't believe in the 'toxicity' of the raiding community until I tried it. Wow. Show your achievements or you can't come. This is a learning raid but of we wipe twice I'm outta here for a experienced group. Race through the fight asap. Explain nothing. Voice? Ltp newb. Why don't you just buy a run if you don't know it. Not ready yet? Too bad we can get this fight down without you. Good luck next time.

>

> It isn't the raid difficulty that needs fixing its the raiders.

 

Players have little patience and, unfortunately, the less experienced they are the less patience they have. I've seen some completely unexperienced guildmates complaining about playing with unexperienced people and not being able to get the kill, wanting experienced raiders to play with. And I'm like, wtf? You're a newbie but you expect experienced raiders to take you??? Some people also have too little patience, once they see that the kill won't come soon they just leave -it's a shame but you can't do anything, if they wish to go then it's their loss, replace them and keep trying.

 

What I do not agree on (sorry about that, but this is important and every newbie should understand it): you can't expect to be welcomed in a training group if you don't know ANYTHING about the boss. Do your homework and read a guide. If you don't know the basics of the boss, you're forcing someone else to explain them to you. And the fact that there's a training in the LFG does not necessarily mean that someone is training a group of people -it can mean someone has gathered more people in order to train. No one is obliged to explain the boss to you. You can't just join and expect them to do that.

 

 

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > No it doesn't. The fact something is (and is intended to be) niche *content* doesn't make it a different *game mode*. Raids are PvE. Just like any other instanced content, and just like the open world. Players group up and fight together against the game. PvE. The very definition of it.

> > If we go that way, both WvW and SPvP would be one gamemode as well - PvP. The only meaningful distinction between them is the number of participants on a map.

> > Raids are a different mode. They may be a PvE mode (just like both SPvP and WvW are PvP game modes), but it's still a very much separate mode.

> >

> >

>

> Raids differ from open world in two (and only two) aspects: a) being instanced content, and b) difficulty. Neither of these are unique to raids. Not even their combination is. Care to explain what is the magical property that makes them "separate"?

 

Granted, the mechanical differences aren't as obvious, as in case of wvw/spvp, but they do exist.

Not only they are the only 10-man squad instanced content, but also they use a slightly modified combat engine (nonstandard aggro management, no in-combat ressing, many of the buffs available in PvE, like gemshop combat buffs, summon consumables, weapon consumables, special utility consumables disabled). They also have their own separate lobby (aerodrome).