STIHL.2489 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything, you can still have your difficult content, you can still have your legendary armor, you get all your baubles, and even more options, as no doubt you could also do some easy mode if the mood struck you, so, I don't need or want anything that you can't get to make me feel better. That is what separates our motives. > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to include you people and make the game fun for everyone, you want deny and deprive people of the rewards you feel that should be reserved just to you. > > > > > > > > > > > > As such there is nothing, petty or self serving about my motives, and you have openly admitted that you can't say the same. > > > > > > > > > > This method seems to open the raid mode to more people and the counter argument seems to be people don’t want the raid to open up to others. > > > > > > > > The counter-argument can be summarized to "it won't work". It's not that I don't want more people to raid. It's that I'm certain easy mode raids *won't make that happen*. > > > > > > That always the easy counter argument. You can say that about everything. The proof is in the pudding as they say. > > > > Yeah well, I've given the proof time and again. You can read it, it's in this thread. > > Really? How so? > > The same kind of thing that happened in wow, is happening here. It’s inevitable... One of the other MMO's I played, had Normal, Hard, and Elite modes for Raids. They later added in Epic and Nightmare to deal with the power creep of the game and not just crush newbs trying to learn the ropes. Was a good system, but then again, unlike GW2, that game was designed from the ground up to be about Raids, which is why I would not want to get involved in a game that shoehorned them into the system, they will never be as well done or as dynamic as raids in a game built with them in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 I'd have voted but the option I would choose is not presented as a choice. Since I have no desire to ever raid I really don't see the problem, and I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only person that could care less about raids, whether they have story or not and are even somewhat connected to the game world. As for the OP's argument that someone would never stay in Easy mode I disagree...at one time I used to do Fractals, but I always did the same ones over and over, it had nothing to do with the rewards at all...I just happened to enjoy doing those particular Fractals and could've cared less if I'd already done them 25, 30 , 40 or more times, but then again I don't get burned out on repeating the same content because the fun is in playing the game itself...regardless of how many times I've done that same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > >In my view thats just a quality vs quantity assessment. I rather have devs working on something new than adding content thats already in the game (I know you dont see it that way, but I do) > > Well ok, but try to look at it unselfishly for a moment. Ok, right now, you have this content, and you would like them to make more of it for you. Fair enough. But right now a lot of other people don't have this content, and ANet can take the same amount of time and either create, say, 10 hours of new repeatable content for them, or one hour of new repeatable content for the both of you. Assuming an equal or greater number of them, wouldn't the larger amount of content be preferable overall? It's not even clear how many people would actually play instanced group content. So pulling numbers from the air doesn't really make a fair image of what you're describing and can be safely ignored. Even if it's more content for more people, at the end of the day making content for the roughly 80% that doesn't raid vs the 20% that does vs making content for all 100% then the latter one is just more effective. That's an easy 20% more people who can potentially enjoy new content, without messing around with the motivations of that 20% that does raid. It includes literally everyone as a possible target audience and it doesn't break existing communities between modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: >It's not even clear how many people would actually play instanced group content. So pulling numbers from the air doesn't really make a fair image of what you're describing and can be safely ignored. Everyone is pulling numbers out of the air, that's inevitable in this sort of discussion. I believe that there are enough such players to support a mode like this, you do not, and neither of us have any tools available to prove our sides in the matter, so there's no point in continuing to discuss whether these people exist or not. >Even if it's more content for more people, at the end of the day making content for the roughly 80% that doesn't raid vs the 20% that does vs making content for all 100% then the latter one is just more effective. Agreed! Of course, with the caveat that "making content for all 100%" is impossible, and therefore irrelevant to the discussion. The point I've been making is that since making easy mode versions of existing content takes a lot less work than creating original content, it's not an either/or situation, it will never be "they can either make an easier version of Sabetha OR they could make a completely new fight equivalent to Sabetha," it would more realistically be "they can make easy mode versions of *all* of wings 1 and 2 OR they could make a single original combat encounter equivalent to Sabetha," in which case, the players that would benefit from the easy mode encounters would be getting a lot more bang for their buck out of that than they would from the smaller original encounter. So that would be the tradeoff, right now you have two groups: A. People who enjoy the raids as they currently are. B. People who do not. For group A, they already have ten encounters worth of raid content available to them For group B, they currently have zero. By making easy mode raids, it would add ten encounters of new content for group B and nothing for group A, true. By investing equivalent resources into creating *original* new content, it would create probably somewhere around 2-4 new encounters that both groups could play. Even if you assume that both groups are *equal* in size (let's use a modifier of 5/5), that would mean that you'd go from 50 encounter levels today to 100 encounter levels in the "easy mode" scenario, verses 90 in the "original content" scenario. If you assume that the breakdown is actually more like 2/8, then it goes from 20 encounters in the current system to again 100 encounters in the easy mode scenario, an even larger improvement in average available content, but only to 56 in the "original content" scenario, barely half as much average content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talindra.4958 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Talindra.4958" said: > >what is the purpose of your version of easy mode? to get li for legendary armor? or just to explore the story? because the former request is quite ridiculous and i wont be wasting anymore time to discuss further > > All of the above. It's to get all the things people get out of raids, aside from the challenging "wipe until you make it" style of gameplay. Wow!! Good luck with your request!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > Why doesn't this seem realistic? A point of debate is always been this > > > > either > > A: rewards would be to bad in which case easy mode would have absorbed some people who would/ are raiding and then die out leading a net loss in players > > -> BAD ending > > > > B: Rewards would be to good which would result in people leaving the original which has nothing to do with them not enjoying it btw. > > -> BAD ending > > > > C: Rewards are scaled well. > > -> Preferable outcome but very hard to achiev. > > All three of your possibilities seem to be based on the idea that the maximum total pool consists of people already doing raids, that the only way it could achieve a sustainable population would be by cannibalizing a significant amount of the existing raid population. I agree that all three of those scenario would be failures, but I also posit: > > \D: The rewards are good enough to attract non-raiders, but not so good that raiders are terribly impressed, leading to far more non-raiders joining up than raiders down-shifting, leaving existing raids with *most* of their players, while also keeping the easy raid populated. > Good ending. > > I don't think the rewards need to be scaled "perfectly," as I said above I think it would be fine for them to be objectively *worse* than "fair," so long as they are still comparable to other activities in the game. I don't believe that *too* many players will be drawn out of the existing raids, and if they are, then that's only a sign that too many of the existing raid players never wanted to be there in the first place, so it'd still be a net win for the game. > I never said that the maximum total pool consists of people already doing raids, no idea where you got that idea from. Well you're position D is position C per definition tho. So you believe their to be enough people who would care about this easy mode with "less then fair" rewards such that it is self-sufficient? Without making people feel bad about the rewards (Like sometimes happens when a new fractal arrives and people don't want to do the T3 for a while to get into the fractal)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything > > > > > > > > That's your own conviction. Mine is that you *will* deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. > > > > > > Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? > > > > Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase. > > In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. > > Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deeyra.1476 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > I have twisted nothing, If people were happy doing raids you would not need to worry about there being no one to do raids with. > > So either your fear it totally unfounded, or the Truth is, no one likes raids, and you know it, and just do it for the loot to to feel special and better then anyone else. > People are not happy about raids because they expect carrying. Where are all these people when training guilds recruit? And even 80% of those stop joining because whatever reason Yes you do raids for the loot but that is not the sole reason to do them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything, you can still have your difficult content, you can still have your legendary armor, you get all your baubles, and even more options, as no doubt you could also do some easy mode if the mood struck you, so, I don't need or want anything that you can't get to make me feel better. That is what separates our motives. > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to include you people and make the game fun for everyone, you want deny and deprive people of the rewards you feel that should be reserved just to you. > > > > > > > > > > > > As such there is nothing, petty or self serving about my motives, and you have openly admitted that you can't say the same. > > > > > > > > > > This method seems to open the raid mode to more people and the counter argument seems to be people don’t want the raid to open up to others. > > > > > > > > The counter-argument can be summarized to "it won't work". It's not that I don't want more people to raid. It's that I'm certain easy mode raids *won't make that happen*. > > > > > > That always the easy counter argument. You can say that about everything. The proof is in the pudding as they say. > > > > Yeah well, I've given the proof time and again. You can read it, it's in this thread. > > Only real proof is if they do it. As of now, ANet's actions and official statements are in line with my claims. I use stronger words, saying that easy mode raids would be either pointless or harmful, but the fact of matter is they don't develop these and said they have no plans of doing so. > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > That's fine, but you need to consider the bigger picture. You know yourself better than I know you, I'm certain. But it's not about you. It's about the average gamer. And even more - about many typical gamer profiles. The game is big and it targets many different groups of players. Do you know them *all* that well? I don't think you do. You're thinking about how to make the game appeal to you, personally. I'm thinking about what makes raiding in particular fun for everyone interested in it. > > I believe that there are enough gamers who feel that way, *especially* in GW2's community, to support a game mode like this. I think you do too, which is why you're so desperate to prevent this mode from existing, because you worry that it will make it less convenient for you if these players have other options. I believe you. Meaning I believe you actually believe that, but I don't share this belief. Also, stick to actual arguments. You already have STIHL for all the *ad hominem* this thread needs, and more. > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > But you're not asking for content "such as raids". You're asking for content such as fractals. The defining feature of the raids is their difficulty - precisely what people want to get rid of. > > Again, you're back to your dishonest position, because you know full well that this is definitely *not* what we're asking for. Oh really? You're asking for "**easy** mode raids" that aren't *easier* than the normal-mode ones? I fail to see what you're asking for, then. > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > The only thing you have asserted this would deprive you of is that *other players* would be less likely to group up with you. Well you are not *entitled* to have those other players group up with you, and it's in no one's interests to hold those players hostage to your interests. Your desire to have those players playing what *you* want them to rather than what *they'd* prefer to do is an extremely selfish viewpoint, and not at all equivalent to the other side's in this discussion. @STIHL as well: Yes, yes. It's been brought time and again. But you fail to see the bigger picture. It's not about the preferences of the other players. *Players adapt to the situation.* The vast majority of the raiders like to raid, but a poorly balanced reward structure will *force* them to adapt, regardless of their preferences. The idea that they will stick to what they like is a pretty illusion, but it won't work. Inevitably some will be drawn to the easier rewards, because there are always players who are mostly interested in the rewards. This thread being a prime example. This will already increase the average waiting times, which will drive more players to switch, snowballing the process. Note that the process happens as I describe it without *a single* unhappy raider. Therefore, your conclusion "if players switch then that's what they prefer* is baseless. You're either missing the whole point of my objection, or you're misinterpreting it on purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: >Well you're position D is position C per definition tho. I believe it's easier to target "within a certain range that favors existing raiders over easy mode," than it is to target "perfect balance." I don't believe it should be difficult for them to hit the right general range, and they can err on the side of "not enough" and scale up a bit once they are satisfied that it works. >So you believe their to be enough people who would care about this easy mode with "less then fair" rewards such that it is self-sufficient? Yes. So long as the rewards it does have are fair relative to *other* content in the game (ie they can make about as much general loot per hour than they can doing various other content of equal or lesser challenge), and so long as it provides a reasonable path towards the raid rewards (but slower than the current raids offer), then I feel enough people will do it, mostly people who currently have no interest in the existing raids. Now obviously they could err on the side of "way too little loot," by making it completely uncompetitive with other content in the game, but that's easily fixed. >Without making people feel bad about the rewards (Like sometimes happens when a new fractal arrives and people don't want to do the T3 for a while to get into the fractal)? I'm not sure what this one means. >Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? Players that would enjoy the raiding experience without all the wiping. > @"Deeyra.1476" said: > People are not happy about raids because they expect carrying. Where are all these people when training guilds recruit? And even 80% of those stop joining because whatever reason It's not that people want to be carried, it's that they don't want to *have* to be carried. Think of it like a tug of war. On one side, you have a device pulling with 500lb of pressure, so between ten people, each would need to bring 50lb. of pressure to the table. If some of the players only bring 25lb., then the rest need to bring more to compensate, and that would be "carrying" those other players. It's not that easy mode raider types want to be *carried,* it's not that they want to be able to bring "25lb." to the raid, and expect other players to bring "75lb." for their benefit. It's that they want the machine to only apply *250lb. of pressure,* so that the 25lb. they can bring is *enough,* that they would be *pulling their own weight* by bringing it. They don't want to *have* to expect anything more from you, even if they can't bring as much as you could. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > But you're not asking for content "such as raids". You're asking for content such as fractals. The defining feature of the raids is their difficulty - precisely what people want to get rid of. > > > > Again, you're back to your dishonest position, because you know full well that this is definitely *not* what we're asking for. > > Oh really? You're asking for "**easy** mode raids" that aren't *easier* than the normal-mode ones? I fail to see what you're asking for, then. I am asking for "easy mode raids that are easier than the current ones." What I am **not** asking for, what I have *never* asked for, is "content such as fractals. " You continue to assert that Fractals would in any way fill the niche for what I'm asking for, when I've made quite clear that they would not. **It is not about completely different content with X amount of challenge,** it is about content with identical settings, stories, behaviors, etc., *and* reduced challenge. To come at this another way, *for Fractals to fill the role of what I'm looking for here,* there would need to be a series of Fractals that: 1. Included each of the existing raid boss encounters, only at reduced difficulty 2. Involved no Agony 3. Allowed for parties of up to 10 4. Offered a track toward the same unique rewards as the raids do That's not exactly *impossible,* but it seems like a very roundabout and almost certainly more complicated way to arrive at the desired outcome than to just make an easy mode raid, a bit like making a motorcycle by cutting a car in half and trying to reorganize it to keep functioning in that state. > Yes, yes. It's been brought time and again. But you fail to see the bigger picture. It's not about the preferences of the other players. Players adapt to the situation. The vast majority of the raiders like to raid, but a poorly balanced reward structure will force them to adapt, regardless of their preferences. Again, I am not asking for a poorly balanced reward structure. I do not *want* a poorly balanced reward structure. I want the reward structure to be balanced *in favor of* the existing hard mode raids, so that ANY player who "just cares about the loots" will 100% do the hard mode raids, alldayerryday. End of story. The *only* people who would have any incentive whatsoever to play the easy mode raids would be those who **really** do not want to play the hard mode. >This will already increase the average waiting times, which will drive more players to switch, snowballing the process. Note that the process happens as I describe it without a single unhappy raider. Therefore, your conclusion "if players switch then that's what they prefer* is baseless. You're either missing the whole point of my objection, or you're misinterpreting it on purpose. Let me ask you this: Say there is a player who, right now, is raiding. He's cleared every boss at least once, and every week he goes out and does at least a few raids, grinding his way toward whatever goal he has. But he definitely *does not enjoy the experience.* He is not like you, he does not enjoy the things you do, he is in it for the loot, because the raid is the ONLY place to get certain loot, but he genuinely hates the time he spends doing so, it is not fun, it is not a game, it is a *chore,* and it constantly erodes his sense of enjoyment of the game. Do you care? Do you want that player to be happy? And I don't mean "I wish he could be made happy by feeling the way I feel about raids," I mean, do you want *him* to be happy, even accepting that he will *never* enjoy raids the way you enjoy raids? Assuming not, why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: it is about content with identical settings, stories, behaviors, etc., *and* reduced challenge. You realize that beside the challenge, everything you listed here is a *one-time* feature, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > >Well you're position D is position C per definition tho. > > I believe it's easier to target "within a certain range that favors existing raiders over easy mode," than it is to target "perfect balance." I don't believe it should be difficult for them to hit the right general range, and they can err on the side of "not enough" and scale up a bit once they are satisfied that it works. > > >So you believe their to be enough people who would care about this easy mode with "less then fair" rewards such that it is self-sufficient? > > Yes. So long as the rewards it does have are fair relative to *other* content in the game (ie they can make about as much general loot per hour than they can doing various other content of equal or lesser challenge), and so long as it provides a reasonable path towards the raid rewards (but slower than the current raids offer), then I feel enough people will do it, mostly people who currently have no interest in the existing raids. > > Now obviously they could err on the side of "way too little loot," by making it completely uncompetitive with other content in the game, but that's easily fixed. > Well if this is true i will have little objections but i see no proof of such a situation. And question the replayability of the mode. Of course neither of us have the data to validate our positions. ;) > >Without making people feel bad about the rewards (Like sometimes happens when a new fractal arrives and people don't want to do the T3 for a while to get into the fractal)? > > I'm not sure what this one means. > Well i mean even if you would balance loot around other parts of the game. If as in you're suggesting having less then fair loot wouldn't it give a bad reaction (The second class citizen argument gets thrown around sometimes and such an implimentation would reinforce it ) > >Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? > > Players that would enjoy the raiding experience without all the wiping. > Wouldn't those people rather look at mmo's containing dungeons for example? I don't think these people would search for mmo's with raids to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > >it is about content with identical settings, stories, behaviors, etc., *and* reduced challenge. > > You realize that beside the challenge, everything you listed here is a *one-time* feature, don't you? The same could be said about any content in the game, and yet plenty of people keep repeating it night after night. I have no concern whatsoever that an easy mode raid, with a worthwhile reward structure (again NOT as efficient as the harder mode) would have people farming it regularly for those rewards. They would enjoy the experience. Now, what about the rest of what I said? > @"yann.1946" said: >Well if this is true i will have little objections but i see no proof of such a situation. And question the replayability of the mode. >Of course neither of us have the data to validate our positions. ;) Yes, they have to make the mode for either of us to be proven right, so let's get on that. >Well i mean even if you would balance loot around other parts of the game. If as in you're suggesting having less then fair loot wouldn't it give a bad reaction (The second class citizen argument gets thrown around sometimes and such an implimentation would reinforce it ) I think the loot should be good relative to the rest of the game, but not great. I feel like, if loot wasn't a thing at all, if players were just doing whatever they felt like doing, then if they do easy mode raids right, it should be an activity about on par with how dungeons used to be, or maybe a low tier Fractal. It would be a bit less convenient than just random world farming, and have more personal responsibility to it than most map metas, but it would take about 5-15 minutes per encounter, plus maybe 5 minutes of set-up, and would offer an amount of loot that would be worth that time and effort, but NOT scaled as if it were the harder mode raid, because it wouldn't be the harder mode raid. > Wouldn't those people rather look at mmo's containing dungeons for example? I don't think these people would search for mmo's with raids to begin with. Well I don't think anyone comes to GW2 specifically for the WvW or PvP either, you come for the GW2. I doubt many people come to GW2 specifixally for the hard raids either. This would be about the players who like GW2, and also want easy mode raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"belognom.3685" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > All these you can learn in other instanced content the game features - the Fractals of the Mists. The actual mechanics you can't learn from a relaxed version, just like you can't learn how to play CM fractals from playing their normal-mode counterparts. The pressure is much different so you need to practice on the real thing. > > > > > > > > I'm doing Fractals, rarely doing 4 tho but i have done them, mostly t3s. See it's not planning I juts go with pugs from lfg. Now how is that gonna help me to get a raid done? Fractals mech are different from what i see on raid bosses on tube videos. General dodging? Alright, I think I can manage that. > > > > I wanna see the content, simle and I can't. Tho my toon is geared in ascended (wvw and raid) and has a good arsenal of ascended wepons. > > > > > > > > But the game offered no progression whatsoever. Than content is close to me and that isn't nice. I done everything on my part, that i had to do, how I can go do raids? > > > > > > > > P.S. I would like to state this again. I'm not asking for one shot bosses. Maybe less damage, perhaps 80% -85% of current one, so pugs won't be walking away from raids. > > > > > > > > I'm in biggest guild 2k members only 2-3 person i know do raiding, rest are avoiding it as plague. Simply none has time for preparation and planning and dedicated time to go into raids for 4 hours. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's like asking "why are dungeons 5-man, I want to see the content solo". Because that's was the original idea. The game gives exactly the same requirement for anyone. If you're not doing the content, seek the problem in yourself, not the game. > > > > You need to take into consideration that biggest gate for raiding is its "community" :) > > > > Game puts requirement in terms of content mechanics and timer however it's the "community" that stricts the content beyond proportions. > > The higher requirements the community imposes are a natural result of the higher difficulty to carry the specific content. The same players, when playing easier content, just don't care. You can see this in high-end fractal parties who proceed to play recommended fractals after clearing t4 and cms. Someone leaves because they're not interested in recs, we LFG and don't care what we get. We'll faceroll the content anyway. We could easily 4-man, or 3-man it, but why not help someone along? At the same time, we really care what we get prior to that. Because 100 CM isn't that easy to carry. That's all. Same applies for raids. It doesn't matter as it's not my point. I don't care about justifications here. Just stating the fact that community creates additional gates of entry for the content that doesn't require them to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > >This will already increase the average waiting times, which will drive more players to switch, snowballing the process. Note that the process happens as I describe it without a single unhappy raider. Therefore, your conclusion "if players switch then that's what they prefer* is baseless. You're either missing the whole point of my objection, or you're misinterpreting it on purpose. > > Let me ask you this: Say there is a player who, right now, is raiding. He's cleared every boss at least once, and every week he goes out and does at least a few raids, grinding his way toward whatever goal he has. But he definitely *does not enjoy the experience.* He is not like you, he does not enjoy the things you do, he is in it for the loot, because the raid is the ONLY place to get certain loot, but he genuinely hates the time he spends doing so, it is not fun, it is not a game, it is a *chore,* and it constantly erodes his sense of enjoyment of the game. > > Do you care? > > Do you want that player to be happy? And I don't mean "I wish he could be made happy by feeling the way I feel about raids," I mean, do you want *him* to be happy, even accepting that he will *never* enjoy raids the way you enjoy raids? > > Assuming not, why not? My question would rather be if doing the content is destroying his pleasure of the game why would he do the content. I understand the desire for loot but if this actually corrodes their fun in the game they shouldn't do it period. Imaging somebody ordering a glass of beer at a bar taking a sip and vomiting from the taste and then continue drinking and at the telling the bartender how horrible it was. I would have no sympathy with such a person. Of course the argument about HOT armour will arise but i do question should we care about the person who sucks the fun out of the game for himself to chase some loot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > >it is about content with identical settings, stories, behaviors, etc., *and* reduced challenge. > > > > You realize that beside the challenge, everything you listed here is a *one-time* feature, don't you? > > The same could be said about any content in the game, and yet plenty of people keep repeating it night after night. I have no concern whatsoever that an easy mode raid, with a worthwhile reward structure (again NOT as efficient as the harder mode) would have people farming it regularly for those rewards. They would enjoy the experience. > > Now, what about the rest of what I said? Not the point. *Because* these are one-time features, they're irrelevant in the long run. You're not getting a content of different theme or whatnot. You're getting a content of specific difficulty, with specific reward structure. *Exactly* what the fractals already offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > My question would rather be if doing the content is destroying his pleasure of the game why would he do the content. Because currently it's the only place in the game to unlock certain rewards he seeks, and perhaps he also enjoys elements of the content, but not the various hassles that only the hard mode would entail. > I understand the desire for loot but if this actually corrodes their fun in the game they shouldn't do it period. That may be the choice you'd make in his shoes, but it's apparently not the choice he made. You can't change that choice, all you can do is change the external forces so as to provide him with alternate options. > Imaging somebody ordering a glass of beer at a bar taking a sip and vomiting from the taste and then continue drinking and at the telling the bartender how horrible it was. I would have no sympathy with such a person. Ok. > Of course the argument about HOT armour will arise but i do question should we care about the person who sucks the fun out of the game for himself > to chase some loot? Apparently not, in your case. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Not the point. Because these are one-time features, they're irrelevant in the long run. Irrelevant *to you,* but I believe we've established that other players *do* exist. >You're not getting a content of different theme or whatnot. You're getting a content of specific difficulty, with specific reward structure. Exactly what the fractals already offer. Again, no. I feel like I'm trying to describe the difference between water and wine to someone who refuses to perceive that there is any difference between the two beyond their alcohol content, and suggests that vodka is a perfectly equivalent substitute in *every* situation. You don't even accept the basic factual premises that I lay out as being fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > My question would rather be if doing the content is destroying his pleasure of the game why would he do the content. > > Because currently it's the only place in the game to unlock certain rewards he seeks, and perhaps he also enjoys elements of the content, but not the various hassles that only the hard mode would entail. > > > I understand the desire for loot but if this actually corrodes their fun in the game they shouldn't do it period. > > That may be the choice you'd make in his shoes, but it's apparently not the choice he made. You can't change that choice, all you can do is change the external forces so as to provide him with alternate options. > > > Imaging somebody ordering a glass of beer at a bar taking a sip and vomiting from the taste and then continue drinking and at the telling the bartender how horrible it was. I would have no sympathy with such a person. > > Ok. > > > Of course the argument about HOT armour will arise but i do question should we care about the person who sucks the fun out of the game for himself > > to chase some loot? > > Apparently not, in your case. > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > Not the point. Because these are one-time features, they're irrelevant in the long run. > > Irrelevant *to you,* but I believe we've established that other players *do* exist. No, it's not irrelevant only to me. Other players have more or less the same cognitive abilities. The novelty of the content wears out very quickly for everyone. Let's say it's not one time, let it be ten times. It is still irrelevant in the long run. These pieces of content are designed to be played many more times that that. You're only looking at yourself, imagining the one perfect gameplay experience you would get from playing this. Look at the bigger picture. Imagine playing your easy mode raid for 250th time over. Would the theme really matter? The behaviors? The characters or the scenery? At this point it is all routine. You go there, you do this, then that. You know it by heart, you've done it time and again, you can do it with your eyes closed, figuratively speaking. Do you really think the theme matters at this point? You might actually believe so, but you're wrong. It doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > No, it's not irrelevant only to me. Other players have more or less the same cognitive abilities. It's not about cognition. They are not worse (or better) than you for having different motivations or impressions of things, for enjoying different aspects of a thing. Whatever motivates you to run raids, that's true for you, but it doesn't mean it would be equally true for everyone, and the reasons they might have, might be completely abstract and unrelatable to you, but it doesn't make them any less valid than your own reasons. >Imagine playing your easy mode raid for 250th time over. Would the theme really matter? The behaviors? The characters or the scenery? At this point it is all routine. But the same is true of the challenge. Most people tire of most content eventually, the goal is not to create a single piece of content that could entertain people indefinitely, it's to create content that will entertain people long enough for you to create more. This is weekly content, so 250 iterations would take five years to complete. I don't expect this content to entertain most players for five years, but I do expect it to entertain a lot of players for a year or two, and that's plenty, and by then, there should be new content to play. >. Do you really think the theme matters at this point? You might actually believe so, but you're wrong. It doesn't. You really need to include the words "for me," more often, because otherwise it sounds like you're speaking for everyone's tastes here, in which case you couldn't be more wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > I understand the desire for loot but if this actually corrodes their fun in the game they shouldn't do it period. > > That may be the choice you'd make in his shoes, but it's apparently not the choice he made. You can't change that choice, all you can do is change the external forces so as to provide him with alternate options. > But should we adjust for people taking self-destructive choices? shouldn't we have higher expectations of people? We shouldn't necessarily change the external forces to accommodate somebody taking self-destructive choices. > > Of course the argument about HOT armour will arise but i do question should we care about the person who sucks the fun out of the game for himself to chase some loot? > > Apparently not, in your case. > To be clear i don't have a problem with easy mode idea perse. I have a problem with the argument that we should cater to the people choosing a route to go for something and then complain about it and the argument that everything should be possible to get in their preferred game mode. And i fear the population imbalance that will happen if the implementation plops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > I understand the desire for loot but if this actually corrodes their fun in the game they shouldn't do it period. > > > > That may be the choice you'd make in his shoes, but it's apparently not the choice he made. You can't change that choice, all you can do is change the external forces so as to provide him with alternate options. > > > > But should we adjust for people taking self-destructive choices? shouldn't we have higher expectations of people? We shouldn't necessarily change the external forces to accommodate somebody taking self-destructive choices. I would say the same thing about raiding in general, I personally can't for a second understand why anyone would want to failfailfailfailfail a raid encounter until eventually they succeed, but whether I can understand that or not, I at least accept that it happens. People are weird. >I have a problem with the argument that we should cater to the people choosing a route to go for something and then complain about it and the argument that everything should be possible to get in their preferred game mode. But again, if someone has a goal, a goal that they very much want, and the ONLY path toward that goal is one that they cannot possibly enjoy, then what future would *you* prescribe for such a person? Should he pursue that goal along a path that he does not enjoy? Should he abandon that goal entirely just because the path to reach it would be unpleasant? Would either of those solutions be the best solution for every person, or would different people value the goal and the path differently, and thus benefit from a different balance between the two? I believe that if an actual solution to the dilemma is practical, if you can allow an outcome that involves *both* reaching the goal *and* enjoying the path, then it's worth pursuing that result, rather than abandoning all hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Not the point. *Because* these are one-time features, they're irrelevant in the long run. You're not getting a content of different theme or whatnot. You're getting a content of specific difficulty, with specific reward structure. *Exactly* what the fractals already offer. You realize of course that the challenge is also a short time feature? Once your group gets the encounter on farm status (and for most raiders eventually you _do_ get to that point), all the challenge is long gone. Also, some of the newest fractal encounters are definitely on the same difficulty as many of the raid ones. So, why _raiders_ can't just play those challenging fractals? What is so different about raids that they need a different mode? > @"yann.1946" said: > Wouldn't those people rather look at mmo's containing dungeons for example? I don't think these people would search for mmo's with raids to begin with. Ah, but many of them _did_ search for MMO without raids. That was **GW2**. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grogba.6204 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I'd argue some of the new fractal bosses are above many raid encounters in terms of mechanics at this point. VG, Gorseval, Sabetha, Trio, Cairn, Mursaat, Samarog are not particularly mechanic heavy. Unlike the fractal bosses, only a handful of players even have to deal with mechanics while the rest pummels the boss until the HP bar is empty. *shrug* I see no point in easy modes. As others wrote before they will either end up being deserted because they offer nothing in return nor prepare you for the real encounter... Or the easy mode ends up rewarding too much, making the real mode undesirable for rewarddriven players while *still* not preparing them for the normal encounter set up. Different tiers work for daily content and even there they are questionable: T4 fractals, given their rewards, appeal to a large number of players even if said players are **_not_** up for the challenge. And I am not talking about advanced skipping strats or /gg for cooldown reset but terrible player behaviour (not dodging, not caring about instabilities, not changing skills/traits according to encounters, doing abysmal dmg even when all they have to do is doing dmg). Different tiered Raids would not change anything rather It is a welcoming change that there is finally content that requires a bit more thought than pressing skills at random /rant Ultimately though it iss wasted dev ressources that could be spend on the next LW release, new fractals, another raid wing with lower difficulty to begin with (see w4 but that one is already easy apart from deimos), optimization, BUILD TEMPLATES or **_SAB world 3 A-Net pls._** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Deeyra.1476" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > I have twisted nothing, If people were happy doing raids you would not need to worry about there being no one to do raids with. > > > > So either your fear it totally unfounded, or the Truth is, no one likes raids, and you know it, and just do it for the loot to to feel special and better then anyone else. > > > People are not happy about raids because they expect carrying. Where are all these people when training guilds recruit? And even 80% of those stop joining because whatever reason > > Yes you do raids for the loot but that is not the sole reason to do them. According to several people I know that tried to join these "training" guilds, most of them are jerks and very elitist about their demands that make doing raids a chore or a job, as opposed to embracing the the idea of having fun playing game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > @STIHL as well: > Yes, yes. It's been brought time and again. But you fail to see the bigger picture. It's not about the preferences of the other players. *Players adapt to the situation.* The vast majority of the raiders like to raid, but a poorly balanced reward structure will *force* them to adapt, regardless of their preferences. The idea that they will stick to what they like is a pretty illusion, but it won't work. Inevitably some will be drawn to the easier rewards, because there are always players who are mostly interested in the rewards. This thread being a prime example. This will already increase the average waiting times, which will drive more players to switch, snowballing the process. Note that the process happens as I describe it without *a single* unhappy raider. Therefore, your conclusion "if players switch then that's what they prefer* is baseless. You're either missing the whole point of my objection, or you're misinterpreting it on purpose. If that is the case then they were just chasing rewards and never really cared about the content to begin with, and truth be told, there is no real reason to cater to those players. If they would have been equally happy grinding easy content for the same reward they never wanted to challenge themselves to begin with and there was never a point in putting in content to start. In short if people would abandon raids because an easy mode was put in, then no matter how you want to try and twist thing, they didn't enjoy doing the raids to start with and just wanted the loot, and that means Raids were a mistake and need an overhaul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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