STIHL.2489 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > Ok, so *maybe* **only** three times as many people would play easy mode as currently raid. Wow, how could they possibly justify the time and effort of making a fraction of a raid encounter for such a *tiny* audience? > > > > > > 115,781 players finished Heart of Thorns, 32,177 players finished Wing 1, that's a completion rate (relative to the potential audience) of 27.8% which is pretty good in my opinion for the most challenging content in the game. > > > > > > Edit: Arah has a completion rate of 28% (hardest content in the game on release) and T4 Fractals (hardest non-raid content in the game) is at 29.5%, pretty close to the 27.8% of Wing 1. > > > > See, so there are plenty of players left who could still complete a wing 1 if it had an easy mode. > > The question is how it compares with the *other* harder of the game and they do seem pretty similar. Do we need an easy mode for Arah? The answer to that was _Yes_ as they revised Araha Story mode from being a 5 person instance based dungeon to a solo dungeon. In that Regard, Anet did the right thing. Raids, are and will always be a blunder of a decision to put in this game. They add nothing to the overall game, and are disjuncture from the other content, As such, there is no point to try to make them _better_, some things are just so erroneous that even bothering to try and revise them into something worthwhile is not worth the effort, raids fall into that category. So again. * If anyone wants to go after Legendary Armor for the QoL/BiS features, by all means, head out to WvW or sPvP. * Anyone that wants the skin, too bad. Raid or deal without. * Anyone that feels Raids have poisoned the game for them, there are a lot of other fun MMO's out there, or you know what, let the bitterness flow though you and protest by not spending money. Such is, what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > Ok, so *maybe* **only** three times as many people would play easy mode as currently raid. Wow, how could they possibly justify the time and effort of making a fraction of a raid encounter for such a *tiny* audience? > > > > > > > > 115,781 players finished Heart of Thorns, 32,177 players finished Wing 1, that's a completion rate (relative to the potential audience) of 27.8% which is pretty good in my opinion for the most challenging content in the game. > > > > > > > > Edit: Arah has a completion rate of 28% (hardest content in the game on release) and T4 Fractals (hardest non-raid content in the game) is at 29.5%, pretty close to the 27.8% of Wing 1. > > > > > > See, so there are plenty of players left who could still complete a wing 1 if it had an easy mode. > > > > The question is how it compares with the *other* harder of the game and they do seem pretty similar. Do we need an easy mode for Arah? > > The answer to that was _Yes_ as they revised Araha Story mode from being a 5 person instance based dungeon to a solo dungeon. In that Regard, Anet did the right thing. > > Raids, are and will always be a blunder of a decision to put in this game. They add nothing to the overall game, and are disjuncture from the other content, As such, there is no point to try to make them _better_, some things are just so erroneous that even bothering to try and revise them into something worthwhile is not worth the effort, raids fall into that category. > > So again. > * If anyone wants to go after Legendary Armor for the QoL/BiS features, by all means, head out to WvW or sPvP. > * Anyone that wants the skin, too bad. Raid or deal without. > * Anyone that feels Raids have poisoned the game for them, there are a lot of other fun MMO's out there, or you know what, let the bitterness flow though you and protest by not spending money. > > Such is, what it is. Why have raids poisoned the game? In all of my time doing open world and wvw I've never encountered raider toxicity. In my experience pvp is more toxic and wvw is also elitist (though not as much as raids, i used to be a wvw elitist :P). The old dungeon lfgs before dps meters came along were also pretty terrible, ap requirements, class restrictions, arbitrary kicking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > Ok, so *maybe* **only** three times as many people would play easy mode as currently raid. Wow, how could they possibly justify the time and effort of making a fraction of a raid encounter for such a *tiny* audience? > > > > > > > > > > 115,781 players finished Heart of Thorns, 32,177 players finished Wing 1, that's a completion rate (relative to the potential audience) of 27.8% which is pretty good in my opinion for the most challenging content in the game. > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Arah has a completion rate of 28% (hardest content in the game on release) and T4 Fractals (hardest non-raid content in the game) is at 29.5%, pretty close to the 27.8% of Wing 1. > > > > > > > > See, so there are plenty of players left who could still complete a wing 1 if it had an easy mode. > > > > > > The question is how it compares with the *other* harder of the game and they do seem pretty similar. Do we need an easy mode for Arah? > > > > The answer to that was _Yes_ as they revised Araha Story mode from being a 5 person instance based dungeon to a solo dungeon. In that Regard, Anet did the right thing. > > > > Raids, are and will always be a blunder of a decision to put in this game. They add nothing to the overall game, and are disjuncture from the other content, As such, there is no point to try to make them _better_, some things are just so erroneous that even bothering to try and revise them into something worthwhile is not worth the effort, raids fall into that category. > > > > So again. > > * If anyone wants to go after Legendary Armor for the QoL/BiS features, by all means, head out to WvW or sPvP. > > * Anyone that wants the skin, too bad. Raid or deal without. > > * Anyone that feels Raids have poisoned the game for them, there are a lot of other fun MMO's out there, or you know what, let the bitterness flow though you and protest by not spending money. > > > > Such is, what it is. > > Why have raids poisoned the game? In all of my time doing open world and wvw I've never encountered raider toxicity. In my experience pvp is more toxic and wvw is also elitist (though not as much as raids, i used to be a wvw elitist :P). > > The old dungeon lfgs before dps meters came along were also pretty terrible, ap requirements, class restrictions, arbitrary kicking... Yah.. seems like a pretty stupid move to cater to that crowed of players.. Oh how about that.. well that answered your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > Ok, so *maybe* **only** three times as many people would play easy mode as currently raid. Wow, how could they possibly justify the time and effort of making a fraction of a raid encounter for such a *tiny* audience? > > > > > > > > > > > > 115,781 players finished Heart of Thorns, 32,177 players finished Wing 1, that's a completion rate (relative to the potential audience) of 27.8% which is pretty good in my opinion for the most challenging content in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Arah has a completion rate of 28% (hardest content in the game on release) and T4 Fractals (hardest non-raid content in the game) is at 29.5%, pretty close to the 27.8% of Wing 1. > > > > > > > > > > See, so there are plenty of players left who could still complete a wing 1 if it had an easy mode. > > > > > > > > The question is how it compares with the *other* harder of the game and they do seem pretty similar. Do we need an easy mode for Arah? > > > > > > The answer to that was _Yes_ as they revised Araha Story mode from being a 5 person instance based dungeon to a solo dungeon. In that Regard, Anet did the right thing. > > > > > > Raids, are and will always be a blunder of a decision to put in this game. They add nothing to the overall game, and are disjuncture from the other content, As such, there is no point to try to make them _better_, some things are just so erroneous that even bothering to try and revise them into something worthwhile is not worth the effort, raids fall into that category. > > > > > > So again. > > > * If anyone wants to go after Legendary Armor for the QoL/BiS features, by all means, head out to WvW or sPvP. > > > * Anyone that wants the skin, too bad. Raid or deal without. > > > * Anyone that feels Raids have poisoned the game for them, there are a lot of other fun MMO's out there, or you know what, let the bitterness flow though you and protest by not spending money. > > > > > > Such is, what it is. > > > > Why have raids poisoned the game? In all of my time doing open world and wvw I've never encountered raider toxicity. In my experience pvp is more toxic and wvw is also elitist (though not as much as raids, i used to be a wvw elitist :P). > > > > The old dungeon lfgs before dps meters came along were also pretty terrible, ap requirements, class restrictions, arbitrary kicking... > > Yah.. seems like a pretty stupid move to cater to that crowed of players.. Oh how about that.. well that answered your question. To cater to what crowd of players? Wvw'ers? Pvp'ers? Dungeon farmers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > Ok, so *maybe* **only** three times as many people would play easy mode as currently raid. Wow, how could they possibly justify the time and effort of making a fraction of a raid encounter for such a *tiny* audience? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 115,781 players finished Heart of Thorns, 32,177 players finished Wing 1, that's a completion rate (relative to the potential audience) of 27.8% which is pretty good in my opinion for the most challenging content in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Arah has a completion rate of 28% (hardest content in the game on release) and T4 Fractals (hardest non-raid content in the game) is at 29.5%, pretty close to the 27.8% of Wing 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > See, so there are plenty of players left who could still complete a wing 1 if it had an easy mode. > > > > > > > > > > The question is how it compares with the *other* harder of the game and they do seem pretty similar. Do we need an easy mode for Arah? > > > > > > > > The answer to that was _Yes_ as they revised Araha Story mode from being a 5 person instance based dungeon to a solo dungeon. In that Regard, Anet did the right thing. > > > > > > > > Raids, are and will always be a blunder of a decision to put in this game. They add nothing to the overall game, and are disjuncture from the other content, As such, there is no point to try to make them _better_, some things are just so erroneous that even bothering to try and revise them into something worthwhile is not worth the effort, raids fall into that category. > > > > > > > > So again. > > > > * If anyone wants to go after Legendary Armor for the QoL/BiS features, by all means, head out to WvW or sPvP. > > > > * Anyone that wants the skin, too bad. Raid or deal without. > > > > * Anyone that feels Raids have poisoned the game for them, there are a lot of other fun MMO's out there, or you know what, let the bitterness flow though you and protest by not spending money. > > > > > > > > Such is, what it is. > > > > > > Why have raids poisoned the game? In all of my time doing open world and wvw I've never encountered raider toxicity. In my experience pvp is more toxic and wvw is also elitist (though not as much as raids, i used to be a wvw elitist :P). > > > > > > The old dungeon lfgs before dps meters came along were also pretty terrible, ap requirements, class restrictions, arbitrary kicking... > > > > Yah.. seems like a pretty stupid move to cater to that crowed of players.. Oh how about that.. well that answered your question. > > To cater to what crowd of players? Wvw'ers? Pvp'ers? Dungeon farmers? Leaving out the _Elitist_ part of that I see.. which you openly admit to being.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 @"Teamkiller.4315" you can keep responding, nothing will change what is. * Raids are a bad addition to this game. * Those that don't like them have a choice of two: deal or leave. * Anyone that just wants Purple Rank Armor, can go do WvW or sPvP. Nothing will make Raids better for this game, no matter how much you polish a turd, it's still going to be a turd, and even Anet devs have made it clear they know this and have given up on the idea of even trying to revise raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > Ok, so *maybe* **only** three times as many people would play easy mode as currently raid. Wow, how could they possibly justify the time and effort of making a fraction of a raid encounter for such a *tiny* audience? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 115,781 players finished Heart of Thorns, 32,177 players finished Wing 1, that's a completion rate (relative to the potential audience) of 27.8% which is pretty good in my opinion for the most challenging content in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Arah has a completion rate of 28% (hardest content in the game on release) and T4 Fractals (hardest non-raid content in the game) is at 29.5%, pretty close to the 27.8% of Wing 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, so there are plenty of players left who could still complete a wing 1 if it had an easy mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > The question is how it compares with the *other* harder of the game and they do seem pretty similar. Do we need an easy mode for Arah? > > > > > > > > > > The answer to that was _Yes_ as they revised Araha Story mode from being a 5 person instance based dungeon to a solo dungeon. In that Regard, Anet did the right thing. > > > > > > > > > > Raids, are and will always be a blunder of a decision to put in this game. They add nothing to the overall game, and are disjuncture from the other content, As such, there is no point to try to make them _better_, some things are just so erroneous that even bothering to try and revise them into something worthwhile is not worth the effort, raids fall into that category. > > > > > > > > > > So again. > > > > > * If anyone wants to go after Legendary Armor for the QoL/BiS features, by all means, head out to WvW or sPvP. > > > > > * Anyone that wants the skin, too bad. Raid or deal without. > > > > > * Anyone that feels Raids have poisoned the game for them, there are a lot of other fun MMO's out there, or you know what, let the bitterness flow though you and protest by not spending money. > > > > > > > > > > Such is, what it is. > > > > > > > > Why have raids poisoned the game? In all of my time doing open world and wvw I've never encountered raider toxicity. In my experience pvp is more toxic and wvw is also elitist (though not as much as raids, i used to be a wvw elitist :P). > > > > > > > > The old dungeon lfgs before dps meters came along were also pretty terrible, ap requirements, class restrictions, arbitrary kicking... > > > > > > Yah.. seems like a pretty stupid move to cater to that crowed of players.. Oh how about that.. well that answered your question. > > > > To cater to what crowd of players? Wvw'ers? Pvp'ers? Dungeon farmers? > > Leaving out the _Elitist_ part of that I see.. which you openly admit to being.. Uhhhh i admitted i used to be a wvw elitist, which i no longer am. Your statement is very confusing, can you elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > Ok, so *maybe* **only** three times as many people would play easy mode as currently raid. Wow, how could they possibly justify the time and effort of making a fraction of a raid encounter for such a *tiny* audience? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 115,781 players finished Heart of Thorns, 32,177 players finished Wing 1, that's a completion rate (relative to the potential audience) of 27.8% which is pretty good in my opinion for the most challenging content in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Arah has a completion rate of 28% (hardest content in the game on release) and T4 Fractals (hardest non-raid content in the game) is at 29.5%, pretty close to the 27.8% of Wing 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, so there are plenty of players left who could still complete a wing 1 if it had an easy mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The question is how it compares with the *other* harder of the game and they do seem pretty similar. Do we need an easy mode for Arah? > > > > > > > > > > > > The answer to that was _Yes_ as they revised Araha Story mode from being a 5 person instance based dungeon to a solo dungeon. In that Regard, Anet did the right thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids, are and will always be a blunder of a decision to put in this game. They add nothing to the overall game, and are disjuncture from the other content, As such, there is no point to try to make them _better_, some things are just so erroneous that even bothering to try and revise them into something worthwhile is not worth the effort, raids fall into that category. > > > > > > > > > > > > So again. > > > > > > * If anyone wants to go after Legendary Armor for the QoL/BiS features, by all means, head out to WvW or sPvP. > > > > > > * Anyone that wants the skin, too bad. Raid or deal without. > > > > > > * Anyone that feels Raids have poisoned the game for them, there are a lot of other fun MMO's out there, or you know what, let the bitterness flow though you and protest by not spending money. > > > > > > > > > > > > Such is, what it is. > > > > > > > > > > Why have raids poisoned the game? In all of my time doing open world and wvw I've never encountered raider toxicity. In my experience pvp is more toxic and wvw is also elitist (though not as much as raids, i used to be a wvw elitist :P). > > > > > > > > > > The old dungeon lfgs before dps meters came along were also pretty terrible, ap requirements, class restrictions, arbitrary kicking... > > > > > > > > Yah.. seems like a pretty stupid move to cater to that crowed of players.. Oh how about that.. well that answered your question. > > > > > > To cater to what crowd of players? Wvw'ers? Pvp'ers? Dungeon farmers? > > > > Leaving out the _Elitist_ part of that I see.. which you openly admit to being.. > > Uhhhh i admitted i used to be a wvw elitist, which i no longer am. Your statement is very confusing, can you elaborate? I could.. I won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > @"Teamkiller.4315" you can keep responding, nothing will change what is. > > * Raids are a bad addition to this game. > * Those that don't like them have a choice of two: deal or leave. > * Anyone that just wants Purple Rank Armor, can go do WvW or sPvP. > > Nothing will make Raids better for this game, no matter how much you polish a kitten, it's still going to be a kitten, and even Anet devs have made it clear they know this and have given up on the idea of even trying to revise raids. Yeah i understand you think raids were a bad addition to the game, I'm asking _why_. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, so *maybe* **only** three times as many people would play easy mode as currently raid. Wow, how could they possibly justify the time and effort of making a fraction of a raid encounter for such a *tiny* audience? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 115,781 players finished Heart of Thorns, 32,177 players finished Wing 1, that's a completion rate (relative to the potential audience) of 27.8% which is pretty good in my opinion for the most challenging content in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Arah has a completion rate of 28% (hardest content in the game on release) and T4 Fractals (hardest non-raid content in the game) is at 29.5%, pretty close to the 27.8% of Wing 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, so there are plenty of players left who could still complete a wing 1 if it had an easy mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The question is how it compares with the *other* harder of the game and they do seem pretty similar. Do we need an easy mode for Arah? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The answer to that was _Yes_ as they revised Araha Story mode from being a 5 person instance based dungeon to a solo dungeon. In that Regard, Anet did the right thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids, are and will always be a blunder of a decision to put in this game. They add nothing to the overall game, and are disjuncture from the other content, As such, there is no point to try to make them _better_, some things are just so erroneous that even bothering to try and revise them into something worthwhile is not worth the effort, raids fall into that category. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again. > > > > > > > * If anyone wants to go after Legendary Armor for the QoL/BiS features, by all means, head out to WvW or sPvP. > > > > > > > * Anyone that wants the skin, too bad. Raid or deal without. > > > > > > > * Anyone that feels Raids have poisoned the game for them, there are a lot of other fun MMO's out there, or you know what, let the bitterness flow though you and protest by not spending money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Such is, what it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why have raids poisoned the game? In all of my time doing open world and wvw I've never encountered raider toxicity. In my experience pvp is more toxic and wvw is also elitist (though not as much as raids, i used to be a wvw elitist :P). > > > > > > > > > > > > The old dungeon lfgs before dps meters came along were also pretty terrible, ap requirements, class restrictions, arbitrary kicking... > > > > > > > > > > Yah.. seems like a pretty stupid move to cater to that crowed of players.. Oh how about that.. well that answered your question. > > > > > > > > To cater to what crowd of players? Wvw'ers? Pvp'ers? Dungeon farmers? > > > > > > Leaving out the _Elitist_ part of that I see.. which you openly admit to being.. > > > > Uhhhh i admitted i used to be a wvw elitist, which i no longer am. Your statement is very confusing, can you elaborate? > > I could.. I won't. You seem like you're trying to say it's not worth your time to explain your position to me. Is that right? Wouldn't that make you some kind of elitist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Teamkiller.4315" you can keep responding, nothing will change what is. > > > > * Raids are a bad addition to this game. > > * Those that don't like them have a choice of two: deal or leave. > > * Anyone that just wants Purple Rank Armor, can go do WvW or sPvP. > > > > Nothing will make Raids better for this game, no matter how much you polish a kitten, it's still going to be a kitten, and even Anet devs have made it clear they know this and have given up on the idea of even trying to revise raids. > > Yeah i understand you think raids were a > bad addition to the game, I'm asking _why_. Already Answered, feel free to read the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, so *maybe* **only** three times as many people would play easy mode as currently raid. Wow, how could they possibly justify the time and effort of making a fraction of a raid encounter for such a *tiny* audience? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 115,781 players finished Heart of Thorns, 32,177 players finished Wing 1, that's a completion rate (relative to the potential audience) of 27.8% which is pretty good in my opinion for the most challenging content in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Arah has a completion rate of 28% (hardest content in the game on release) and T4 Fractals (hardest non-raid content in the game) is at 29.5%, pretty close to the 27.8% of Wing 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, so there are plenty of players left who could still complete a wing 1 if it had an easy mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The question is how it compares with the *other* harder of the game and they do seem pretty similar. Do we need an easy mode for Arah? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The answer to that was _Yes_ as they revised Araha Story mode from being a 5 person instance based dungeon to a solo dungeon. In that Regard, Anet did the right thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids, are and will always be a blunder of a decision to put in this game. They add nothing to the overall game, and are disjuncture from the other content, As such, there is no point to try to make them _better_, some things are just so erroneous that even bothering to try and revise them into something worthwhile is not worth the effort, raids fall into that category. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again. > > > > > > > > * If anyone wants to go after Legendary Armor for the QoL/BiS features, by all means, head out to WvW or sPvP. > > > > > > > > * Anyone that wants the skin, too bad. Raid or deal without. > > > > > > > > * Anyone that feels Raids have poisoned the game for them, there are a lot of other fun MMO's out there, or you know what, let the bitterness flow though you and protest by not spending money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Such is, what it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why have raids poisoned the game? In all of my time doing open world and wvw I've never encountered raider toxicity. In my experience pvp is more toxic and wvw is also elitist (though not as much as raids, i used to be a wvw elitist :P). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The old dungeon lfgs before dps meters came along were also pretty terrible, ap requirements, class restrictions, arbitrary kicking... > > > > > > > > > > > > Yah.. seems like a pretty stupid move to cater to that crowed of players.. Oh how about that.. well that answered your question. > > > > > > > > > > To cater to what crowd of players? Wvw'ers? Pvp'ers? Dungeon farmers? > > > > > > > > Leaving out the _Elitist_ part of that I see.. which you openly admit to being.. > > > > > > Uhhhh i admitted i used to be a wvw elitist, which i no longer am. Your statement is very confusing, can you elaborate? > > > > I could.. I won't. > > You seem like you're trying to say it's not worth your time to explain your position to me. Is that right? Wouldn't that make you some kind of elitist? nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" you can keep responding, nothing will change what is. > > > > > > * Raids are a bad addition to this game. > > > * Those that don't like them have a choice of two: deal or leave. > > > * Anyone that just wants Purple Rank Armor, can go do WvW or sPvP. > > > > > > Nothing will make Raids better for this game, no matter how much you polish a kitten, it's still going to be a kitten, and even Anet devs have made it clear they know this and have given up on the idea of even trying to revise raids. > > > > Yeah i understand you think raids were a > > bad addition to the game, I'm asking _why_. > > Already Answered, feel free to read the topic. Your answer was vague and nondescriptive, and are actually false at a glance. For example "Raids add nothing to the game." is false because they add _raids_ to the game, something not there before. We can go deeper and say raids also added difficult content or 10 man content or new storylines but you get the picture here. As for the other 'reason' about being a disjuncture from the rest of the game, how is it so? You just stated it without giving reason. Can you elaborate on your position? I'm not trolling, i swear, I'm genuinely trying to facilitate discussion. It's not like it matters to me either way, i wouldn't care too much if raids were outright deleted from the game, except for that gw2 would bleed some players. I'm just trying to understand your reasons for your position, something you just adamantly refuse to discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > Of course it will create an uproar in the raiding community. Make the WvW and sPvP exclusive skins available through other content and you will see the same reaction. >But raiders are special and evil. > > *Anyone* trying to gatekeep their own special shineys from others who would enjoy them is "special" and "evil." It's just not a good look, on anyone. Actually it's the most normal and sensible reaction. You had to put some effort for something, it is only normal you would feel cheated if someone else can get it for significantly less. Your appeal to altruism would look better if you weren't trying to persuade others to be altruistic to your own benefit. It would still be naive, but it would look better. And before you say "real life", "discount", "time passed", in real life discounts happen when a new model comes around. I don't see a newer Envoy. It is still *the* top-tier PvE reward. So it makes no sense to discount it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 The discount here is actually that there are more raid wings and more LI's earnable per week, so it's faster to get legendary armor now than compared to at release Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > Of course it will create an uproar in the raiding community. Make the WvW and sPvP exclusive skins available through other content and you will see the same reaction. >But raiders are special and evil. > > > > *Anyone* trying to gatekeep their own special shineys from others who would enjoy them is "special" and "evil." It's just not a good look, on anyone. > > Actually it's the most normal and sensible reaction. You had to put some effort for something, it is only normal you would feel cheated if someone else can get it for significantly less. Your appeal to altruism would look better if you weren't trying to persuade others to be altruistic to your own benefit. It would still be naive, but it would look better. > > And before you say "real life", "discount", "time passed", in real life discounts happen when a new model comes around. I don't see a newer Envoy. It is still *the* top-tier PvE reward. So it makes no sense to discount it. Its actually a selfish/self centered viewpoint If the armor is different and its an objective for different content. In this case players have no business trying to gatekeeping other people shinies (that's what we are talking about here, not gatekeeping you own shiny) The **_real _**currency for most people in life is time, and as long as that currency is evenly balanced all is well, and that for me is the key top fairness - make time spent equal for all types of legendary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > Of course it will create an uproar in the raiding community. Make the WvW and sPvP exclusive skins available through other content and you will see the same reaction. >But raiders are special and evil. > > > > > > *Anyone* trying to gatekeep their own special shineys from others who would enjoy them is "special" and "evil." It's just not a good look, on anyone. > > > > Actually it's the most normal and sensible reaction. You had to put some effort for something, it is only normal you would feel cheated if someone else can get it for significantly less. Your appeal to altruism would look better if you weren't trying to persuade others to be altruistic to your own benefit. It would still be naive, but it would look better. > > > > And before you say "real life", "discount", "time passed", in real life discounts happen when a new model comes around. I don't see a newer Envoy. It is still *the* top-tier PvE reward. So it makes no sense to discount it. > > Its actually a selfish/self centered viewpoint If the armor is different and its an objective for different content. In this case players have no business trying to gatekeeping other people shinies (that's what we are talking about here, not gatekeeping you own shiny) The **_real _**currency for most people in life is time, and as long as that currency is evenly balanced all is well, and that for me is the key top fairness - make time spent equal for all types of legendary. Nah. You can't just disregard the efforts others have put in just because you cannot be bothered to do the same. Time is irrelevant. This is a game, by definition you choose to spend your time here to have fun. So more time spent doesn't mean anything. You already had your reward for that - more fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > Of course it will create an uproar in the raiding community. Make the WvW and sPvP exclusive skins available through other content and you will see the same reaction. >But raiders are special and evil. > > > > > > > > *Anyone* trying to gatekeep their own special shineys from others who would enjoy them is "special" and "evil." It's just not a good look, on anyone. > > > > > > Actually it's the most normal and sensible reaction. You had to put some effort for something, it is only normal you would feel cheated if someone else can get it for significantly less. Your appeal to altruism would look better if you weren't trying to persuade others to be altruistic to your own benefit. It would still be naive, but it would look better. > > > > > > And before you say "real life", "discount", "time passed", in real life discounts happen when a new model comes around. I don't see a newer Envoy. It is still *the* top-tier PvE reward. So it makes no sense to discount it. > > > > Its actually a selfish/self centered viewpoint If the armor is different and its an objective for different content. In this case players have no business trying to gatekeeping other people shinies (that's what we are talking about here, not gatekeeping you own shiny) The **_real _**currency for most people in life is time, and as long as that currency is evenly balanced all is well, and that for me is the key top fairness - make time spent equal for all types of legendary. > > Nah. You can't just disregard the efforts others have put in just because you cannot be bothered to do the same. Time is irrelevant. This is a game, by definition you choose to spend your time here to have fun. So more time spent doesn't mean anything. You already had your reward for that - more fun. nobody is disregarding your effort, that's in your head, your trying to ringfence other people content for selfish reasons. And time is indeed very very relevant to people in real life, as is long term objectives in mmorpg . For example I really really enjoyed getting the legendary raven staff - i would not have enjoyed it if it took a week to get. Ever wonder why there is none (and i mean none) of this emo in ESO, where there are normal mode raids that everyone happily plays alongside hard mode? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > > Of course it will create an uproar in the raiding community. Make the WvW and sPvP exclusive skins available through other content and you will see the same reaction. >But raiders are special and evil. > > > > > > > > > > *Anyone* trying to gatekeep their own special shineys from others who would enjoy them is "special" and "evil." It's just not a good look, on anyone. > > > > > > > > Actually it's the most normal and sensible reaction. You had to put some effort for something, it is only normal you would feel cheated if someone else can get it for significantly less. Your appeal to altruism would look better if you weren't trying to persuade others to be altruistic to your own benefit. It would still be naive, but it would look better. > > > > > > > > And before you say "real life", "discount", "time passed", in real life discounts happen when a new model comes around. I don't see a newer Envoy. It is still *the* top-tier PvE reward. So it makes no sense to discount it. > > > > > > Its actually a selfish/self centered viewpoint If the armor is different and its an objective for different content. In this case players have no business trying to gatekeeping other people shinies (that's what we are talking about here, not gatekeeping you own shiny) The **_real _**currency for most people in life is time, and as long as that currency is evenly balanced all is well, and that for me is the key top fairness - make time spent equal for all types of legendary. > > > > Nah. You can't just disregard the efforts others have put in just because you cannot be bothered to do the same. Time is irrelevant. This is a game, by definition you choose to spend your time here to have fun. So more time spent doesn't mean anything. You already had your reward for that - more fun. > > nobody is disregarding your effort, that's in your head, your trying to ringfence other people content for selfish reasons. The thing is, I'm not trying to do anything. *They* are trying to change the rules we all played by for their own, selfish reasons. I'm merely claiming that it would be unfair. Which, no matter how you look at this, it will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > > > Of course it will create an uproar in the raiding community. Make the WvW and sPvP exclusive skins available through other content and you will see the same reaction. >But raiders are special and evil. > > > > > > > > > > > > *Anyone* trying to gatekeep their own special shineys from others who would enjoy them is "special" and "evil." It's just not a good look, on anyone. > > > > > > > > > > Actually it's the most normal and sensible reaction. You had to put some effort for something, it is only normal you would feel cheated if someone else can get it for significantly less. Your appeal to altruism would look better if you weren't trying to persuade others to be altruistic to your own benefit. It would still be naive, but it would look better. > > > > > > > > > > And before you say "real life", "discount", "time passed", in real life discounts happen when a new model comes around. I don't see a newer Envoy. It is still *the* top-tier PvE reward. So it makes no sense to discount it. > > > > > > > > Its actually a selfish/self centered viewpoint If the armor is different and its an objective for different content. In this case players have no business trying to gatekeeping other people shinies (that's what we are talking about here, not gatekeeping you own shiny) The **_real _**currency for most people in life is time, and as long as that currency is evenly balanced all is well, and that for me is the key top fairness - make time spent equal for all types of legendary. > > > > > > Nah. You can't just disregard the efforts others have put in just because you cannot be bothered to do the same. Time is irrelevant. This is a game, by definition you choose to spend your time here to have fun. So more time spent doesn't mean anything. You already had your reward for that - more fun. > > > > nobody is disregarding your effort, that's in your head, your trying to ringfence other people content for selfish reasons. > > The thing is, I'm not trying to do anything. *They* are trying to change the rules we all played by for their own, selfish reasons. I'm merely claiming that it would be unfair. Which, no matter how you look at this, it will be. Not everyone plays selfishly many are attracted to mmorpg (especially GW) for quite the opposite reasons. As I alluded to, ESO works perfectly well with different difficulties of raids that all pump out equally good gear - and because of it we just don't see this 'selfish' attitude. The answer is obvious, different armor for different types of instance, all the same level but different skins, it's a solved problem that has proven solution, people just need to move with the times and stop being so self centered and realise mmorpg is not just about being mr shiny number 1 in a game that does not have that philosophy at heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > > > > Of course it will create an uproar in the raiding community. Make the WvW and sPvP exclusive skins available through other content and you will see the same reaction. >But raiders are special and evil. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Anyone* trying to gatekeep their own special shineys from others who would enjoy them is "special" and "evil." It's just not a good look, on anyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it's the most normal and sensible reaction. You had to put some effort for something, it is only normal you would feel cheated if someone else can get it for significantly less. Your appeal to altruism would look better if you weren't trying to persuade others to be altruistic to your own benefit. It would still be naive, but it would look better. > > > > > > > > > > > > And before you say "real life", "discount", "time passed", in real life discounts happen when a new model comes around. I don't see a newer Envoy. It is still *the* top-tier PvE reward. So it makes no sense to discount it. > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a selfish/self centered viewpoint If the armor is different and its an objective for different content. In this case players have no business trying to gatekeeping other people shinies (that's what we are talking about here, not gatekeeping you own shiny) The **_real _**currency for most people in life is time, and as long as that currency is evenly balanced all is well, and that for me is the key top fairness - make time spent equal for all types of legendary. > > > > > > > > Nah. You can't just disregard the efforts others have put in just because you cannot be bothered to do the same. Time is irrelevant. This is a game, by definition you choose to spend your time here to have fun. So more time spent doesn't mean anything. You already had your reward for that - more fun. > > > > > > nobody is disregarding your effort, that's in your head, your trying to ringfence other people content for selfish reasons. > > > > The thing is, I'm not trying to do anything. *They* are trying to change the rules we all played by for their own, selfish reasons. I'm merely claiming that it would be unfair. Which, no matter how you look at this, it will be. > > Not everyone plays selfishly many are attracted to mmorpg (especially GW) for quite the opposite reasons. As I alluded to, ESO works perfectly well with different difficulties of raids that all pump out equally good gear - and because of it we just don't see this 'selfish' attitude. The answer is obvious, different armor for different types of instance, all the same level but different skins, it's a solved problem that has proven solution, people just need to move with the times and stop being so self centered and realise mmorpg is not just about being mr shiny number 1 in a game that does not have that philosophy at heart. Different skins would work. This doesn't nullify the meaning of the already earned rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > > > > > Of course it will create an uproar in the raiding community. Make the WvW and sPvP exclusive skins available through other content and you will see the same reaction. >But raiders are special and evil. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Anyone* trying to gatekeep their own special shineys from others who would enjoy them is "special" and "evil." It's just not a good look, on anyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it's the most normal and sensible reaction. You had to put some effort for something, it is only normal you would feel cheated if someone else can get it for significantly less. Your appeal to altruism would look better if you weren't trying to persuade others to be altruistic to your own benefit. It would still be naive, but it would look better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And before you say "real life", "discount", "time passed", in real life discounts happen when a new model comes around. I don't see a newer Envoy. It is still *the* top-tier PvE reward. So it makes no sense to discount it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a selfish/self centered viewpoint If the armor is different and its an objective for different content. In this case players have no business trying to gatekeeping other people shinies (that's what we are talking about here, not gatekeeping you own shiny) The **_real _**currency for most people in life is time, and as long as that currency is evenly balanced all is well, and that for me is the key top fairness - make time spent equal for all types of legendary. > > > > > > > > > > Nah. You can't just disregard the efforts others have put in just because you cannot be bothered to do the same. Time is irrelevant. This is a game, by definition you choose to spend your time here to have fun. So more time spent doesn't mean anything. You already had your reward for that - more fun. > > > > > > > > nobody is disregarding your effort, that's in your head, your trying to ringfence other people content for selfish reasons. > > > > > > The thing is, I'm not trying to do anything. *They* are trying to change the rules we all played by for their own, selfish reasons. I'm merely claiming that it would be unfair. Which, no matter how you look at this, it will be. > > > > Not everyone plays selfishly many are attracted to mmorpg (especially GW) for quite the opposite reasons. As I alluded to, ESO works perfectly well with different difficulties of raids that all pump out equally good gear - and because of it we just don't see this 'selfish' attitude. The answer is obvious, different armor for different types of instance, all the same level but different skins, it's a solved problem that has proven solution, people just need to move with the times and stop being so self centered and realise mmorpg is not just about being mr shiny number 1 in a game that does not have that philosophy at heart. > > Different skins would work. This doesn't nullify the meaning of the already earned rewards. Ye, I just don't understand what the arguments are about, its a no brainer, and already the established reward model for GW. Anyone arguing for the same skin or no reward are basically arguing to damage the game for all including themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > > > > > > Of course it will create an uproar in the raiding community. Make the WvW and sPvP exclusive skins available through other content and you will see the same reaction. >But raiders are special and evil. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Anyone* trying to gatekeep their own special shineys from others who would enjoy them is "special" and "evil." It's just not a good look, on anyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it's the most normal and sensible reaction. You had to put some effort for something, it is only normal you would feel cheated if someone else can get it for significantly less. Your appeal to altruism would look better if you weren't trying to persuade others to be altruistic to your own benefit. It would still be naive, but it would look better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And before you say "real life", "discount", "time passed", in real life discounts happen when a new model comes around. I don't see a newer Envoy. It is still *the* top-tier PvE reward. So it makes no sense to discount it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a selfish/self centered viewpoint If the armor is different and its an objective for different content. In this case players have no business trying to gatekeeping other people shinies (that's what we are talking about here, not gatekeeping you own shiny) The **_real _**currency for most people in life is time, and as long as that currency is evenly balanced all is well, and that for me is the key top fairness - make time spent equal for all types of legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah. You can't just disregard the efforts others have put in just because you cannot be bothered to do the same. Time is irrelevant. This is a game, by definition you choose to spend your time here to have fun. So more time spent doesn't mean anything. You already had your reward for that - more fun. > > > > > > > > > > nobody is disregarding your effort, that's in your head, your trying to ringfence other people content for selfish reasons. > > > > > > > > The thing is, I'm not trying to do anything. *They* are trying to change the rules we all played by for their own, selfish reasons. I'm merely claiming that it would be unfair. Which, no matter how you look at this, it will be. > > > > > > Not everyone plays selfishly many are attracted to mmorpg (especially GW) for quite the opposite reasons. As I alluded to, ESO works perfectly well with different difficulties of raids that all pump out equally good gear - and because of it we just don't see this 'selfish' attitude. The answer is obvious, different armor for different types of instance, all the same level but different skins, it's a solved problem that has proven solution, people just need to move with the times and stop being so self centered and realise mmorpg is not just about being mr shiny number 1 in a game that does not have that philosophy at heart. > > > > Different skins would work. This doesn't nullify the meaning of the already earned rewards. > > Ye, I just don't understand what the arguments are about, its a no brainer, and already the established reward model for GW. Anyone arguing for the same skin or no reward are basically arguing to damage the game for all including themselves. Oh, I fully agree. To be honest, I think that's just Ohoni now. Everyone else seems to have reached some sort of sensible position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" you can keep responding, nothing will change what is. > > > > > > > > * Raids are a bad addition to this game. > > > > * Those that don't like them have a choice of two: deal or leave. > > > > * Anyone that just wants Purple Rank Armor, can go do WvW or sPvP. > > > > > > > > Nothing will make Raids better for this game, no matter how much you polish a kitten, it's still going to be a kitten, and even Anet devs have made it clear they know this and have given up on the idea of even trying to revise raids. > > > > > > Yeah i understand you think raids were a > > > bad addition to the game, I'm asking _why_. > > > > Already Answered, feel free to read the topic. > > Your answer was vague and nondescriptive, and are actually false at a glance. For example "Raids add nothing to the game." is false because they add _raids_ to the game, something not there before. We can go deeper and say raids also added difficult content or 10 man content or new storylines but you get the picture here. As for the other 'reason' about being a disjuncture from the rest of the game, how is it so? You just stated it without giving reason. > > Can you elaborate on your position? I'm not trolling, i swear, I'm genuinely trying to facilitate discussion. > There are 60 pages of this topic where I have... if you care, feel free to peruse those posts. At this point, my goal is help _my side_ understand that this discussion is dead. They have the following choices. * For those of us that want the Legendary Armor for the BiS/QoL, they should move on to WvW/sPvP. * For those that want the skin, they are out of luck, Anet Devs have made it clear things are going to stay the way they are. Anything and Everything else has already been discussed at length and said many times over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Francois.4328 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 I'd like a few individual "easy" raids, but not an easy mode. Encounters like Dhuum were created with a very specific challenge in mind. There is pride and accomplishment to walking around with the Oblivion scythe. What we need is a new raid wing akin to Wing 4, minus Deimos. Not a total pushover, but relaxing to clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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