PvP Discussion: Rewards

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @Xarimath.4518 said:

> Right, I'd like to express my humble opinion about this subject.

>

> **PvE Rewards are absolutely wrong in PvP**. _I'm playing PvP, why the heck shall I get rewards for different game modes?_ Also, why shall I get rewarded by losing? Takes away all the incentive/effort to push myself over my limits and trying to win the game.

>

> Nice PvP rewards would be only Aesthetic Skins, doesen't matter if are armor skins or weapon skins (finishers as well). The main purpose should be that I get those rewards only if I win OR I climb the league (Example, I manage to get out from Silver and Reach gold, my effort should be rewarded, **only once **of course).

>

> Let's have different TOP titles for different seasons, would incentivate even top players to compete between each other because AT LEAST they have something to fight for (Making a mount it's expensive, but a Title? C'mon guys :P)

>

> And PLEASE, I beg you, don't make rewards grindable with tokens, we all know what it will bring...

 

This accords well with Objectivism, ( as exemplified by Ayn Rand,) and it sounds good theoretically. Practical experience in many fields has shown that this approach is less-than-optimal. Even my Drill Sergeant recognized sincere effort, success or failure.

 

The bottom line is that people need to get some reward for playing, or they simply won't play. For some that's private satisfaction and for others, it's game currency such as gold or skins.

[Dropdown.7460]

> @Ashyri.5426 said:

> **Remove pip rewards for defeats from ranked match during the seasons.**

> This will end afk/botting pips farming, people actually have to play to in order to win the game. Also it might increase the match quality on low tiers and newcomers to pvp might actually enjoy and learn enough of it to stay playing PvP.

 

I would go another route. I've posted this in another thread, but I think pips don't have to be an all or nothing deal. Afk farming should be dealt with via the report system and Anet. The fact they aren't is another issue entirely. Why are we letting a few bad leeches determine reward structure? That seems counter-intuitive.

 

**My suggestion would be to alter the pip reward structure. Baseline is 3 pips for participation. Getting to 500 (winning) awards 10 pips plus the extra pip for top stats. Instead of the current system, pips would be rewarded for good, competitive play. At 450 you earn 9 pips, 400: 8 pips, 350: 7 pips, 300: 6 pips, 350: 5 pips, 300: 4 pips.**

 

I know some pvp players will jump on this and say it's a bad idea. Here's why it's not: By encouraging players to not give up, to continue to work toward a higher score, they are *incentivized* to play well. Blowouts can still happen, sure, but people are less likely to give up. Knowing a close match still awards you a decent amount of pips.

 

PvP is incredibly toxic as it now. Why add to the toxicity -- thus driving players away -- when we can foster a more *healthy* competitive atmosphere? Removing pips on loss means people will stop playing. I know I will. For one, I can't choose all my teammates, so I could be getting bad players. Why should I be penalized for that? Isn't my time worth anything? I don't believe this would encourage match manipulation any more than it already does; people trade gold for wins. I know there is a small pip reward for "close" games, but I think a tiered structure would do more to encourage players. At the very least, trying this for one season to see how things shake out couldn't hurt. Something needs to be done to revitalize pvp and, aside from balance changes that are needed, more incentives means more competitive players.

 

tl;dr: Instead of *punishing* players for poor play, *reward* players for good play. This is basic psych 101 folks. Punishment creates and fosters avoidance behavior. Rewards reinforce good behavior. We want good behavior and more participation.

[Dropdown.7460]

> @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> Remove the ascended and legendary rewards. All they do is attract PvE and WvW pip farmers. PvPers don't need them. Add more unique PvP rewards that are skins. perhaps one set for each season. There's a lot that could be open to imagination here. Passes to the exclusive areas of the lobby, for example.

 

I just have to go on record as saying I disagree with this. As a PvP player who also plays PvE, these rewards are a great carrot to keep me coming back. Not to mention it's not like the rewards are super easy to get; you still have to play and do well.

[Xtrverz.4069]

Any idea what the next monthly items will be and will you ever add a way to exchange llamas for league tickets as I have quite a few sitting in my bank that I already have the final version of.

[TexZero.7910]

> @Dropdown.7460 said:

> > @Ashyri.5426 said:

> > **Remove pip rewards for defeats from ranked match during the seasons.**

> > This will end afk/botting pips farming, people actually have to play to in order to win the game. Also it might increase the match quality on low tiers and newcomers to pvp might actually enjoy and learn enough of it to stay playing PvP.

>

> I would go another route. I've posted this in another thread, but I think pips don't have to be an all or nothing deal. Afk farming should be dealt with via the report system and Anet. The fact they aren't is another issue entirely. Why are we letting a few bad leeches determine reward structure? That seems counter-intuitive.

>

> **My suggestion would be to alter the pip reward structure. Baseline is 3 pips for participation. Getting to 500 (winning) awards 10 pips plus the extra pip for top stats. Instead of the current system, pips would be rewarded for good, competitive play. At 450 you earn 9 pips, 400: 8 pips, 350: 7 pips, 300: 6 pips, 350: 5 pips, 300: 4 pips.**

>

> I know some pvp players will jump on this and say it's a bad idea. Here's why it's not: By encouraging players to not give up, to continue to work toward a higher score, they are *incentivized* to play well. Blowouts can still happen, sure, but people are less likely to give up. Knowing a close match still awards you a decent amount of pips.

>

> PvP is incredibly toxic as it now. Why add to the toxicity -- thus driving players away -- when we can foster a more *healthy* competitive atmosphere? Removing pips on loss means people will stop playing. I know I will. For one, I can't choose all my teammates, so I could be getting bad players. Why should I be penalized for that? Isn't my time worth anything? I don't believe this would encourage match manipulation any more than it already does; people trade gold for wins. I know there is a small pip reward for "close" games, but I think a tiered structure would do more to encourage players. At the very least, trying this for one season to see how things shake out couldn't hurt. Something needs to be done to revitalize pvp and, aside from balance changes that are needed, more incentives means more competitive players.

>

> tl;dr: Instead of *punishing* players for poor play, *reward* players for good play. This is basic psych 101 folks. Punishment creates and fosters avoidance behavior. Rewards reinforce good behavior. We want good behavior and more participation.

 

This doesnt really promote what you think. If you do this the games will turn into circle capping until 450 for both teams.

[Rising Dusk.2408]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> I don't think we'll be taking rewards from other game modes. There is a lot of value of different game modes getting some unique rewards.

Thank you for this. I'm a player of all game modes myself, and it's very important to me that each game mode has distinct, unique rewards associated with it.

[Meridian.9103]

> @Dropdown.7460 said:

> > @Ashyri.5426 said:

> > **Remove pip rewards for defeats from ranked match during the seasons.**

> > This will end afk/botting pips farming, people actually have to play to in order to win the game. Also it might increase the match quality on low tiers and newcomers to pvp might actually enjoy and learn enough of it to stay playing PvP.

>

> I would go another route. I've posted this in another thread, but I think pips don't have to be an all or nothing deal. Afk farming should be dealt with via the report system and Anet. The fact they aren't is another issue entirely. Why are we letting a few bad leeches determine reward structure? That seems counter-intuitive.

>

> **My suggestion would be to alter the pip reward structure. Baseline is 3 pips for participation. Getting to 500 (winning) awards 10 pips plus the extra pip for top stats. Instead of the current system, pips would be rewarded for good, competitive play. At 450 you earn 9 pips, 400: 8 pips, 350: 7 pips, 300: 6 pips, 350: 5 pips, 300: 4 pips.**

>

> I know some pvp players will jump on this and say it's a bad idea. Here's why it's not: By encouraging players to not give up, to continue to work toward a higher score, they are *incentivized* to play well. Blowouts can still happen, sure, but people are less likely to give up. Knowing a close match still awards you a decent amount of pips.

>

> PvP is incredibly toxic as it now. Why add to the toxicity -- thus driving players away -- when we can foster a more *healthy* competitive atmosphere? Removing pips on loss means people will stop playing. I know I will. For one, I can't choose all my teammates, so I could be getting bad players. Why should I be penalized for that? Isn't my time worth anything? I don't believe this would encourage match manipulation any more than it already does; people trade gold for wins. I know there is a small pip reward for "close" games, but I think a tiered structure would do more to encourage players. At the very least, trying this for one season to see how things shake out couldn't hurt. Something needs to be done to revitalize pvp and, aside from balance changes that are needed, more incentives means more competitive players.

>

> tl;dr: Instead of *punishing* players for poor play, *reward* players for good play. This is basic psych 101 folks. Punishment creates and fosters avoidance behavior. Rewards reinforce good behavior. We want good behavior and more participation.

 

I really like the general idea, but am afraid that such a system would be easily abused. Therefore the gap between a win or loss needs to be higher. Maybe 1 or 2 extra pips for reaching say 400 points and lowering the base pips by 1 could be a feasable approach.

[Majirah.5089]

> @Dropdown.7460 said:

> > @Ashyri.5426 said:

> > **Remove pip rewards for defeats from ranked match during the seasons.**

> > This will end afk/botting pips farming, people actually have to play to in order to win the game. Also it might increase the match quality on low tiers and newcomers to pvp might actually enjoy and learn enough of it to stay playing PvP.

>

> I would go another route. I've posted this in another thread, but I think pips don't have to be an all or nothing deal. Afk farming should be dealt with via the report system and Anet. The fact they aren't is another issue entirely. Why are we letting a few bad leeches determine reward structure? That seems counter-intuitive.

>

> **My suggestion would be to alter the pip reward structure. Baseline is 3 pips for participation. Getting to 500 (winning) awards 10 pips plus the extra pip for top stats. Instead of the current system, pips would be rewarded for good, competitive play. At 450 you earn 9 pips, 400: 8 pips, 350: 7 pips, 300: 6 pips, 350: 5 pips, 300: 4 pips.**

>

> I know some pvp players will jump on this and say it's a bad idea. Here's why it's not: By encouraging players to not give up, to continue to work toward a higher score, they are *incentivized* to play well. Blowouts can still happen, sure, but people are less likely to give up. Knowing a close match still awards you a decent amount of pips.

>

> PvP is incredibly toxic as it now. Why add to the toxicity -- thus driving players away -- when we can foster a more *healthy* competitive atmosphere? Removing pips on loss means people will stop playing. I know I will. For one, I can't choose all my teammates, so I could be getting bad players. Why should I be penalized for that? Isn't my time worth anything? I don't believe this would encourage match manipulation any more than it already does; people trade gold for wins. I know there is a small pip reward for "close" games, but I think a tiered structure would do more to encourage players. At the very least, trying this for one season to see how things shake out couldn't hurt. Something needs to be done to revitalize pvp and, aside from balance changes that are needed, more incentives means more competitive players.

>

> tl;dr: Instead of *punishing* players for poor play, *reward* players for good play. This is basic psych 101 folks. Punishment creates and fosters avoidance behavior. Rewards reinforce good behavior. We want good behavior and more participation.

 

I agree with this approach. It does encourage people to keep trying and still come back after a loss. Even a string of losses.

 

To the people who think it would cause abuse: sure it might in some cases. But in the majority of cases I highly doubt there would be good enough communication across teams and cooperation to make sure both teams get to 450. Its hard enough to get your own team to cooperate. I find it highly unlikely that this would happen often at all.

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @Ashyri.5426 said:

> **Remove pip rewards for defeats from ranked match during the seasons.**

> This will end afk/botting pips farming, people actually have to play to in order to win the game. Also it might increase the match quality on low tiers and newcomers to pvp might actually enjoy and learn enough of it to stay playing PvP.

 

I'm against removing pip rewards for losing. People need to be rewarded for their time, even if they weren't successful. And it makes the process of learning the game mode more rewarding.

 

The better solution to botters is just to find them and punish them. It's not always easy for us to find them, but CS has been doing botter ban waves. Chris even posted about it lately.

[Morwath.9817]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @Ashyri.5426 said:

> > **Remove pip rewards for defeats from ranked match during the seasons.**

> > This will end afk/botting pips farming, people actually have to play to in order to win the game. Also it might increase the match quality on low tiers and newcomers to pvp might actually enjoy and learn enough of it to stay playing PvP.

>

> I'm against removing pip rewards for losing. People need to be rewarded for their time, even if they weren't successful. And it makes the process of learning the game mode more rewarding.

>

> The better solution to botters is just to find them and punish them. It's not always easy for us to find them, but CS has been doing botter ban waves. Chris even posted about it lately.

 

...but aren't they rewarded with "Reward Track"?

 

Edit: Quaggan believes PiP gain should be based on amount of points gained by team, so the better you perform, the more PiPs you get, even if you lose, e.g. if you lose 490-500, you should get nearly as many PiPs for game, as for winning.

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @Exedore.6320 said:

> Can we get ranked-exclusive rewards (ascended shards of glory, tickets) added to the higher placements in ATs? Maybe make the rewards dependent on how many people play in order to prevent farming them in off-hours?

 

I'm not too opposed to adding some ranked rewards to AT's, we'd have to be somewhat careful about it though.

 

We've talked about rewards scaling based on the number of teams participating. We've been debating on whether that actually makes gives less motivation for people to queue up for small tournaments, decreasing the competitiveness of them.

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @Xillllix.3485 said:

> Hero points would be nice, so we wouldn't have to redo the story with all our characters.

>

> A good guild ranking system with stats could be seen as rewarding I guess...

 

Hero points is something we can certainly talk about. Something similar to WvW's system. There is a difference here in that it's easier to justify for WvW, since they need the points. PvP doesn't require them.

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @Jiyu.8310 said:

> > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > @bluri.2653 said:

> > > On the topic itself, weapons awesome idea same goes with "upgrading" or fixing the look for the armor to make it look more prestigeous.

> >

> > We're working on another version of the Glorious armor. I'm specifically aiming to have the tournament version look noticeably different than the League version. It will basically be a paint over/effect treatment on the current armor. Some work has been done, but it's still a ways out.

>

> Ben just for clarity, do you intend to update the existing ardent glorious(aka league version) and glorious hero(aka tournament version) armor (inlcuding updating the skins for peopel that already own pieces of these armors) or replace them with the overhauled skins and turn the old ones into legacy skins? I think u meant just updating the skins but just wanna be sure.

 

They will be a new skin and a new set of armor that you have to earn.

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @bluri.2653 said:

> Another idea is perhaps add more Grandmaster Marks end of ranked season to top X and AT's/mAT's

>

>

 

We have to be pretty careful with grandmaster marks. But there may be room to add some more.

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @xDudisx.5914 said:

> Spvp legendary armor needs a legendary skin.

 

It's pretty unlikely. Legendary skins are extremely work intensive.

[Butters.2807]

Hi,

Not sure if anyones mentioned it but I've got a few potentially minor quality of life things (I say minor...who knows about implementation).

 

Pvp reward tracks - When you complete a track, it will start another track. This could be annoying. Especially if youre like me and want stuff to stay as completed (haha pettty i know). What if the current Repeat icon could be selected (or additional checkbox) that will rollover and spare points into the same track but starting again from 0. This will also stop people forgetting to re-select a track if theyre not paying attention. It could potentially be a really subtle change but great for people who want to do a track several times like armor tracks.

 

The Ascension - ideally there would be some sort of repeatable achievements again but i understand this may not be best to implemement. Could we potentially get a crafting recipe (similar to the Caladbolg item) / orrr spend additional tickets on the achievements item (similar to spare LI for legendary armor) / or similar to what we have for Warbringer where its just a straight up Skirmish ticket cost. Its interesting that WvW has a repeatable backpiece.

 

Overall, Im not thatttt much of a pvp player but ive made the backpeice, i do like llamas and i am slowly working on the legendary armor. I really enjoyed that each map also got a set of acheiements (as someone who likes to hunt these in pve). It will be interesting to keep watching these changes. Im not a huge PVP fan but will dabble from time to time

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @Xtrverz.4069 said:

> Any idea what the next monthly items will be and will you ever add a way to exchange llamas for league tickets as I have quite a few sitting in my bank that I already have the final version of.

 

December's monthly gizmo is a frozen crown, if that's what you were asking about.

 

Changing unused llama's into league tickets also seems reasonable.

[bluri.2653]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @Jiyu.8310 said:

> > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > > @bluri.2653 said:

> > > > On the topic itself, weapons awesome idea same goes with "upgrading" or fixing the look for the armor to make it look more prestigeous.

> > >

> > > We're working on another version of the Glorious armor. I'm specifically aiming to have the tournament version look noticeably different than the League version. It will basically be a paint over/effect treatment on the current armor. Some work has been done, but it's still a ways out.

> >

> > Ben just for clarity, do you intend to update the existing ardent glorious(aka league version) and glorious hero(aka tournament version) armor (inlcuding updating the skins for peopel that already own pieces of these armors) or replace them with the overhauled skins and turn the old ones into legacy skins? I think u meant just updating the skins but just wanna be sure.

>

> They will be a new skin and a new set of armor that you have to earn.

 

So if you save the chests will you obtain the new skin or will it only be obtainable in new chests/rewards? Will Obsidian weapons be a part of AT/mAT rewards?

More ideas being Amalgated Gemstones perhaps

[Xtrverz.4069]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @Xtrverz.4069 said:

> > Any idea what the next monthly items will be and will you ever add a way to exchange llamas for league tickets as I have quite a few sitting in my bank that I already have the final version of.

>

> December's monthly gizmo is a frozen crown, if that's what you were asking about.

>

> Changing unused llama's into league tickets also seems reasonable.

 

Do you happen to have a preview of the frozen crown or will we have to wait until people win the Monthly AT.

[ButterPeanut.9746]

I second the post above about a "repeat this reward track indefinitely" checkbox. This would be great.

[LucusAurelius.9820]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @Xillllix.3485 said:

> > Hero points would be nice, so we wouldn't have to redo the story with all our characters.

> >

> > A good guild ranking system with stats could be seen as rewarding I guess...

>

> Hero points is something we can certainly talk about. Something similar to WvW's system. There is a difference here in that it's easier to justify for WvW, since they need the points. PvP doesn't require them.

 

To be fair PvP doesn’t require you to be level 80 or have ascended gear but tomes of knowledge and ascended shards are still given as rewards. Adding the proofs or testimonies to PvP just makes sense for people who PvP and PvE but are on a server that is low pop WvW. There are also many threads on how Tomes of Knowledge are overly abundant but we have to oraganize entire groups to go on skill point runs in HoT maps. This seems like a simple change that would bring many players to PvP that want to unlock elite specs on alts.

[Asuaka.1528]

I love the particle effects from the ascension. Any chance we could get that as a full body infusion/aura?

[cyberwolf.5830]

Let us buy Amalgated Gemstones and Mystic Clovers with shards of glory.

Also I'm sick of being forced to do daily fractals every day just to make some gold. I'd rather earn the same amount from pvp. Even exactly the same T1,T12,T3,T4 chests of daily fractals, maybe one chest for each pvp match, this would ensure everyone is doing 4 matches per day which is about the same time of doing the Fractal T4 dailies.

Also I totally agree with pips based on earned points, it would help to get rid of throwers/afkers.

[BikeIsGone.8675]

Could we get some bonus rewards (like a special chest or something) with special/pvp-exclusive loot at the end of season, that scales with the division (and maybe even tier) that was reached at end of season?

 

As it already has been said, there are people that just farm pips and dont really bother with their performance, so maybe this would set a proper incentive for a more competitive mindset?

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > @Jiyu.8310 said:

> > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > > > @bluri.2653 said:

> > > > > On the topic itself, weapons awesome idea same goes with "upgrading" or fixing the look for the armor to make it look more prestigeous.

> > > >

> > > > We're working on another version of the Glorious armor. I'm specifically aiming to have the tournament version look noticeably different than the League version. It will basically be a paint over/effect treatment on the current armor. Some work has been done, but it's still a ways out.

> > >

> > > Ben just for clarity, do you intend to update the existing ardent glorious(aka league version) and glorious hero(aka tournament version) armor (inlcuding updating the skins for peopel that already own pieces of these armors) or replace them with the overhauled skins and turn the old ones into legacy skins? I think u meant just updating the skins but just wanna be sure.

> >

> > They will be a new skin and a new set of armor that you have to earn.

>

> So if you save the chests will you obtain the new skin or will it only be obtainable in new chests/rewards? Will Obsidian weapons be a part of AT/mAT rewards?

> More ideas being Amalgated Gemstones perhaps

 

The new armor will be on vendors for leagues and a new chest for mAT's. So no need to save the chest. Tier 2 obsidian weapon chest will replace the armor chest in mAT's starting in December. The obsidian chest will get added to over time, so if you don't want any of the first set of weapons, it's fair to save it and wait for us to add the next set.