apharma.3741 Posted December 9, 2017 Share Posted December 9, 2017 > @"musu.9205" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > Condi also has many other things going for it in a lot of builds, if you fluff up the rotation a little or are interrupted it’s less of an issue but on power builds you can get set back by a lot and never fully recover. Condi doesn’t need to be over a health threshold to do maximum damage and has much more simple rotations most of the time offering high dps for low complexity, currently. Currently we have condition, damage over time builds, spiking up to max dps within seconds of entering a fight, sure it’s not as front loaded as some power builds but no way you can say it’s good for the game to have DoT builds putting that much condi out so quick in any mode as it doesn’t make condi vs power an interesting choice at all. > > > > "Condi also has many other things going for it in a lot of builds, if you fluff up the rotation a little or are interrupted it’s less of an issue but on power builds you can get set back by a lot and never fully recover" > > except that's not true , all builds even weaver has skill priority list ,gw2 doesn't really have solid resource system to make such punishing gameplay as "never fully recover " > take a look at holosmith burst window with > 50% heat or Elements of Rage(8) under 100% quickness . > > "no way you can say it’s good for the game to have DoT builds putting that much condi out so quick in any mode as it doesn’t make condi vs power an interesting choice at all" > > as long as that massive condi burst isn't instantly application with passive traits , short cd and many cover condition ,also condi cleanse exists in pvp , condition dmg is fine . scourge and mirage balance problem is not due to condition being burst .otherwise burn guard would be meta in pvp already .also in other game the ways to remove dot are very limited which isn't true in gw2 . you fail a dodge , you die to power damage , you fail to condition cleanse you die to condition damage . the problem is too many cover condition through passive gameplay or instantly casting skills. > > stop treating gw2 condition dmg as DOT in other games . > gw2 condition damage was balanced around the** constantly reapply** and stack both dmg /sec in pve .it is different gameplay . if anet fails to balance the damage in pvp , ask for specific nerf / buff to certain spec / skill / trait . condition doesn't need to be slow . > > when condition was actually slow , it was never meta , and it will never be meta .even with current balance the aoe condition cleanse from support spec was/ is / will be always stronger than any single condition spec . it was bunker guard , aura tempest and now it is firebrand . condition spec either becomes useless or op with stupid amount of aoe like scourge in pvp. support was/is broken in pvp . but anyway anet listened to this clueless playerbase .without changing to game mode and how support works in this game , there is no way to balance condition in pvp .we are on a wheel now . > > and back to topic , anet should remove /rework elusive mind before nerfing mirage burst . it's a freaking glassy spec which has 1 dmg condition - confusion ,2 cover conditions - blind + torment without much sustain , its EM alone which makes meta build too forgiving . anet could remove daze or clone generation from sword ambush which will have zero impact on pve . > but hey let's take worst possible path to balance all game mode . > > > > You get interrupted in your meteor and have switched while casting you then have to delay the whole rotation by 3-4s or suck it up and continue, either way during the time you’re waiting for meteor to allow you to cast it again you’re reduced to auto and maybe eruption and that’s assuming it didn’t go on a full CD which if it did your dps will drop 5-10k and your damage anything from 30k to 60k. Healer taking a nap and not keeping scholar up? Eat a 5% damage loss for no other reason than power builds need to have the risk that condi doesn’t. Many power builds also have short time frames and optimal conditions to doing this damage, they rely on having certain boons or a certain number, they might need the enemy to sit in a specific AoE or that you use certain skills while affected by a certain mechanic. I’m not saying no condi build doesn’t have this (example ranger SB stand behind) just that generally condition builds do not have such stringent requirements which if fluffed up you need to wait for it all to align again. This isn’t entirely true with a lot of condi specs, you don’t have long cast times most of the time, only really scourge has a significant cast on their skills and some skills on others can be 3/4s but it’s not many. You don’t have to stay at 90% health the whole time to maintain peak effectiveness, you have a skill priority list in most builds and really the only mistakes you can make is to effectively not spam those skills off CD. Most do not have specific buffs or conditions to the increased damage or they have such a low bar it isn’t worth thinking about. Condition damage is designed as a DoT, here is a dev comment explaining just that, in this example the damage is done over a period of time, that is the very definition of DoT. “Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric, wheras Condi is meant to be more ramping, sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn't be a question about what build to choose; you'd go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.” https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/interviews/arenanet-discusses-the-balance-in-tyria-1000012242#BF4JDbQ6ceUO6pgd.99 I agree EM needs looking at first though but I have a feeling we would see IH played more which can spike conditions far faster but as you say there’s more risk with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted December 9, 2017 Share Posted December 9, 2017 > @"musu.9205" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > Of course we will have to wait and see how the changes go through, it may mean only certain skills are changed (likely because they said it’s not a large patch) while many are still left intact so the changes won’t be huge and ramp up times aren’t affected too much. There’s also a big difference between skills used for PvE and PvP as well as how they behave, generally most people have few issues with offhand torch on ranger because it’s easy to dodge and you can walk out of bonfire, same with many skills like this. > > > > > > > > Also as far as condi vs power in raids goes, currently while “top raid fights favour power builds” this depends entirely on who is playing. Maybe it is for the top 5% of players when likewise playing in a group solely comprised of top players who can support them doing that DPS but most raid groups aren’t like that are they? A lot have these 1 or 2 players that are being carried a bit by the others, some have people carried a lot. Condi builds also synergise better which is a point a lot of people are missing and I find it utter lunacy that no-one seems to be remembering that epidemic is the absolute best cleave in raids bar non, even meteor doesn’t hold a candle to epi especially when you’re in a group where all dps is condi. > > > > > > > > Condi also has many other things going for it in a lot of builds, if you fluff up the rotation a little or are interrupted it’s less of an issue but on power builds you can get set back by a lot and never fully recover. Condi doesn’t need to be over a health threshold to do maximum damage and has much more simple rotations most of the time offering high dps for low complexity, currently. Currently we have condition, damage over time builds, spiking up to max dps within seconds of entering a fight, sure it’s not as front loaded as some power builds but no way you can say it’s good for the game to have DoT builds putting that much condi out so quick in any mode as it doesn’t make condi vs power an interesting choice at all. > > > > > > > > This whole thread stinks of what qT and top raid guilds tell people not to be, class kittens. Wait for the changes to come through then see how the ramp up is affected, it’s doubtful any condi class will fall out of use because as I say they’re much more simple and less affected by mistakes. There are absolutely no raid encounters that you will fail by running condi, absolutely none. > > > > > > What you say is not even borne by the parsing data on raidar. A median weaver (hard) is still leading a median dragonhunter (faceroll easy) by about 7k DPS on keep construct as an example, and the gap gets even larger against condi builds on unfavorable fights to condi, which are the bosses you normally don't even bother pugging. > > > > > > Condi builds are no easier than a dragonhunter or holosmith. Playing a condi soulbeast is pretty kitten involved compared to playing any power build that is not a weaver. > > > > > > You people always say to wait and see, but I don't need to wait to know what I'll see. > > > > > > Mirage was wrecked out of existence, as was scourge. 10k+ dps loss in their "balance" changes, removing the specs completely from raiding outside the niche epidemic one trick pony. > > > > On KC, nice of you to cherry pick the one fight ele has been the best at because of large hit box. > > > > VG > > Power builds median 11k except yolosmith at 13k > > Condi builds median 10k > > > > Gorseval > > Power builds median12-14k weaver is ahead but not by much. > > Condi builds median 12-15k > > > > Sabetha > > Power builds median 9-12k holosmith being the exception at 15k > > Condi builds median 12-14k > > Note: this depends entirely on who has to jump, usually power builds but in a full condi comp condi jumps too so these numbers will always be weird. > > > > Slothasor > > Power builds median 10-12k > > Condi builds median all close to 10k > > > > Bandit trio > > No data. > > > > Matthias > > Power builds median 7.5-8.5k with holosmith hitting 10.6k alone > > Condi builds median 10.6-14k most are 11k range and only mirage is top for obvious reasons. > > > > Escort > > No data. > > > > KC > > Power builds median 17-20k with weaver at 25k but this fight is heavily skewed towards burst which is where power shines. > > Condi builds median 11.7-13k doubtful they would fail for running condi though. > > > > Xera - only taking first half of fight as teleports skew numbers a lot but the actual on boss fight changes very little. > > Power builds median 8.3-11k lots of spread most in the lower part of range > > Condi builds median 10-11k > > > > Cairn > > Power builds median 6-14k there’s such a massive spread here that comparing is almost impossible most 10k or below. > > Condi builds median 10-19k a big spread but all condi builds are noticeably outperforming most power builds. > > > > Mursaat Overseer > > Power builds median 19-22k DD and tempest noticeably lower 13 and 15k respectively > > Condi builds median 19-24k there are some further down, weaver, scourge and engineer all in 16-17k, I don’t count reaper as this is after the changes forcing it away from condi. > > > > Samarog > > Power builds median 8-11.5k > > Condi build median 7-9k this fight clearly hurts condi because of invuln phases but condi is much better on Rigom phase and tighter median. > > > > Deimos > > Power builds median 10.5-14k only weaver is 14k most are 10.5k or lower. > > Condi builds median 11k most are around this mark give or take. > > > > I won’t include wing 5 as it’s too new for reliable data. I discounted outdated builds mostly and obviously discounted condi druid as it’s a support spec in dps clothing. Data is from 28th Nov patch. Numbers are approximated unless a range is given. > > > > So yeah apart from 2 fights the median weaver isn’t massively doing more dps over the fight with them performing worse in other fights. There’s also about the same number of fights skewed to condi builds as there are skewed to power builds. Not seeing where condi is being made to be a worse choice, I mean we can start looking at 90th percentile if you want but generally speaking condi reigns supreme for a fair chunk of it with weaver being one of the only consistant power builds to pull away in most fights but most power builds lag behind till MO and the rest of wing 4 and yes I mean the only 3 you consider competitive. We shouldn’t compare power and condi on KC and Cairn imo because the fights heavily favour one over the other respectively. > > > > Edit: likewise Matthias and Samarog favour condi and power respectively so comparisons on them are not good to make either. However one thing is clear, there’s very few fights where running a condi comp for whatever reason instead of power will cause you to fail with maybe the exception of KC if you have 5 median condi dps, they would have to be pulling 90th percentile numbers to clear that I would think. > > 2-3k dps difference per dps slot result like 10k-15k total dps difference .and why holosmith has to be something special ? its not like its insanely hard to play . > and how you thought samarog favour condi and power respectively . > and for many bosses , power build is better for mechanic like shard clean , cannon etc . > I said Matthias and Samarog then mentioned condi and power, my use of the word respectively indicates that condi is better on Matthias and power on Samarog. I believe English isn’t your first language so don’t worry about it I probably could reword it for non English speakers. I generally call out abnormalities so if one particular build is doing more than the others like I said for mirage on Matthias however on Cairn there is just too wide a variance to really say anything other than the trend is all condi builds outperform all but 1 power build. Holosmith is fairly often an outlier. A scourge will deal with shards better than any power build and you won’t fail Xera because you bring condition builds with many able to deal with them at range while if power options were used outside of the 3 main picks they tend to be melee only which has its flaws too. I also mentioned the cannon aspect on Sabetha in the note stating that numbers here are weird because power builds tend to be the ones jumping, as in going to cannons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted December 9, 2017 Share Posted December 9, 2017 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"musu.9205" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > Of course we will have to wait and see how the changes go through, it may mean only certain skills are changed (likely because they said it’s not a large patch) while many are still left intact so the changes won’t be huge and ramp up times aren’t affected too much. There’s also a big difference between skills used for PvE and PvP as well as how they behave, generally most people have few issues with offhand torch on ranger because it’s easy to dodge and you can walk out of bonfire, same with many skills like this. > > > > > > > > > > Also as far as condi vs power in raids goes, currently while “top raid fights favour power builds” this depends entirely on who is playing. Maybe it is for the top 5% of players when likewise playing in a group solely comprised of top players who can support them doing that DPS but most raid groups aren’t like that are they? A lot have these 1 or 2 players that are being carried a bit by the others, some have people carried a lot. Condi builds also synergise better which is a point a lot of people are missing and I find it utter lunacy that no-one seems to be remembering that epidemic is the absolute best cleave in raids bar non, even meteor doesn’t hold a candle to epi especially when you’re in a group where all dps is condi. > > > > > > > > > > Condi also has many other things going for it in a lot of builds, if you fluff up the rotation a little or are interrupted it’s less of an issue but on power builds you can get set back by a lot and never fully recover. Condi doesn’t need to be over a health threshold to do maximum damage and has much more simple rotations most of the time offering high dps for low complexity, currently. Currently we have condition, damage over time builds, spiking up to max dps within seconds of entering a fight, sure it’s not as front loaded as some power builds but no way you can say it’s good for the game to have DoT builds putting that much condi out so quick in any mode as it doesn’t make condi vs power an interesting choice at all. > > > > > > > > > > This whole thread stinks of what qT and top raid guilds tell people not to be, class kittens. Wait for the changes to come through then see how the ramp up is affected, it’s doubtful any condi class will fall out of use because as I say they’re much more simple and less affected by mistakes. There are absolutely no raid encounters that you will fail by running condi, absolutely none. > > > > > > > > What you say is not even borne by the parsing data on raidar. A median weaver (hard) is still leading a median dragonhunter (faceroll easy) by about 7k DPS on keep construct as an example, and the gap gets even larger against condi builds on unfavorable fights to condi, which are the bosses you normally don't even bother pugging. > > > > > > > > Condi builds are no easier than a dragonhunter or holosmith. Playing a condi soulbeast is pretty kitten involved compared to playing any power build that is not a weaver. > > > > > > > > You people always say to wait and see, but I don't need to wait to know what I'll see. > > > > > > > > Mirage was wrecked out of existence, as was scourge. 10k+ dps loss in their "balance" changes, removing the specs completely from raiding outside the niche epidemic one trick pony. > > > > > > On KC, nice of you to cherry pick the one fight ele has been the best at because of large hit box. > > > > > > VG > > > Power builds median 11k except yolosmith at 13k > > > Condi builds median 10k > > > > > > Gorseval > > > Power builds median12-14k weaver is ahead but not by much. > > > Condi builds median 12-15k > > > > > > Sabetha > > > Power builds median 9-12k holosmith being the exception at 15k > > > Condi builds median 12-14k > > > Note: this depends entirely on who has to jump, usually power builds but in a full condi comp condi jumps too so these numbers will always be weird. > > > > > > Slothasor > > > Power builds median 10-12k > > > Condi builds median all close to 10k > > > > > > Bandit trio > > > No data. > > > > > > Matthias > > > Power builds median 7.5-8.5k with holosmith hitting 10.6k alone > > > Condi builds median 10.6-14k most are 11k range and only mirage is top for obvious reasons. > > > > > > Escort > > > No data. > > > > > > KC > > > Power builds median 17-20k with weaver at 25k but this fight is heavily skewed towards burst which is where power shines. > > > Condi builds median 11.7-13k doubtful they would fail for running condi though. > > > > > > Xera - only taking first half of fight as teleports skew numbers a lot but the actual on boss fight changes very little. > > > Power builds median 8.3-11k lots of spread most in the lower part of range > > > Condi builds median 10-11k > > > > > > Cairn > > > Power builds median 6-14k there’s such a massive spread here that comparing is almost impossible most 10k or below. > > > Condi builds median 10-19k a big spread but all condi builds are noticeably outperforming most power builds. > > > > > > Mursaat Overseer > > > Power builds median 19-22k DD and tempest noticeably lower 13 and 15k respectively > > > Condi builds median 19-24k there are some further down, weaver, scourge and engineer all in 16-17k, I don’t count reaper as this is after the changes forcing it away from condi. > > > > > > Samarog > > > Power builds median 8-11.5k > > > Condi build median 7-9k this fight clearly hurts condi because of invuln phases but condi is much better on Rigom phase and tighter median. > > > > > > Deimos > > > Power builds median 10.5-14k only weaver is 14k most are 10.5k or lower. > > > Condi builds median 11k most are around this mark give or take. > > > > > > I won’t include wing 5 as it’s too new for reliable data. I discounted outdated builds mostly and obviously discounted condi druid as it’s a support spec in dps clothing. Data is from 28th Nov patch. Numbers are approximated unless a range is given. > > > > > > So yeah apart from 2 fights the median weaver isn’t massively doing more dps over the fight with them performing worse in other fights. There’s also about the same number of fights skewed to condi builds as there are skewed to power builds. Not seeing where condi is being made to be a worse choice, I mean we can start looking at 90th percentile if you want but generally speaking condi reigns supreme for a fair chunk of it with weaver being one of the only consistant power builds to pull away in most fights but most power builds lag behind till MO and the rest of wing 4 and yes I mean the only 3 you consider competitive. We shouldn’t compare power and condi on KC and Cairn imo because the fights heavily favour one over the other respectively. > > > > > > Edit: likewise Matthias and Samarog favour condi and power respectively so comparisons on them are not good to make either. However one thing is clear, there’s very few fights where running a condi comp for whatever reason instead of power will cause you to fail with maybe the exception of KC if you have 5 median condi dps, they would have to be pulling 90th percentile numbers to clear that I would think. > > > > 2-3k dps difference per dps slot result like 10k-15k total dps difference .and why holosmith has to be something special ? its not like its insanely hard to play . > > and how you thought samarog favour condi and power respectively . > > and for many bosses , power build is better for mechanic like shard clean , cannon etc . > > > > I said Matthias and Samarog then mentioned condi and power, my use of the word respectively indicates that condi is better on Matthias and power on Samarog. I believe English isn’t your first language so don’t worry about it I probably could reword it for non English speakers. > I generally call out abnormalities so if one particular build is doing more than the others like I said for mirage on Matthias however on Cairn there is just too wide a variance to really say anything other than the trend is all condi builds outperform all but 1 power build. Holosmith is fairly often an outlier. > A scourge will deal with shards better than any power build and you won’t fail Xera because you bring condition builds with many able to deal with them at range while if power options were used outside of the 3 main picks they tend to be melee only which has its flaws too. I also mentioned the cannon aspect on Sabetha in the note stating that numbers here are weird because power builds tend to be the ones jumping, as in going to cannons. You won't fail bosses by bringing power reaper or revenant either, but that doesn't mean there are incentives for running them when you can run builds that are ahead by 20-30% (which is the gap you brought up for all those boss reports). You say I'm cherrypicking yet you evaluate the fight with only boss damage in mind and no add cleaving or burst considerations, and you disregarded wing 5's world clear strategies. A scourge will not deal with shards better than an elementalist, and you don't even need a scourge because the banner slave can just longbow burst the shard out. Whatever advantage a scourge offers for the shards means taking the raid DPS hit of bringing a scourge to begin with -- necromancer already being the slowest ramp up condition class in the game. All of these condi builds also have horrendous CC, whereas guardian and holosmith have incredibly good CC in their optimal builds. I don't even know how you claim Samarog favors condi. The constant condi ramp up wipes from his assaults and bubble phase gut condi classes, and during prisoner phase burst DPS is far better. For most of the "hard" fights power is beating condi, and that's right NOW. Not after the patch where the difference will be even more marked. It doesn't even cover fractal CM's where weavers and dragonhunters and holosmiths already reign supreme. The idea that power is weak and condi needs more ramp up is absurd. The competitive power builds are more than fine, it's just that there are only 3 classes with viable power builds vs. every class but engineer (and mesmer/necro having garbage tier specs for both condi and power) having a viable condi spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"musu.9205" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > Of course we will have to wait and see how the changes go through, it may mean only certain skills are changed (likely because they said it’s not a large patch) while many are still left intact so the changes won’t be huge and ramp up times aren’t affected too much. There’s also a big difference between skills used for PvE and PvP as well as how they behave, generally most people have few issues with offhand torch on ranger because it’s easy to dodge and you can walk out of bonfire, same with many skills like this. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also as far as condi vs power in raids goes, currently while “top raid fights favour power builds” this depends entirely on who is playing. Maybe it is for the top 5% of players when likewise playing in a group solely comprised of top players who can support them doing that DPS but most raid groups aren’t like that are they? A lot have these 1 or 2 players that are being carried a bit by the others, some have people carried a lot. Condi builds also synergise better which is a point a lot of people are missing and I find it utter lunacy that no-one seems to be remembering that epidemic is the absolute best cleave in raids bar non, even meteor doesn’t hold a candle to epi especially when you’re in a group where all dps is condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi also has many other things going for it in a lot of builds, if you fluff up the rotation a little or are interrupted it’s less of an issue but on power builds you can get set back by a lot and never fully recover. Condi doesn’t need to be over a health threshold to do maximum damage and has much more simple rotations most of the time offering high dps for low complexity, currently. Currently we have condition, damage over time builds, spiking up to max dps within seconds of entering a fight, sure it’s not as front loaded as some power builds but no way you can say it’s good for the game to have DoT builds putting that much condi out so quick in any mode as it doesn’t make condi vs power an interesting choice at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > This whole thread stinks of what qT and top raid guilds tell people not to be, class kittens. Wait for the changes to come through then see how the ramp up is affected, it’s doubtful any condi class will fall out of use because as I say they’re much more simple and less affected by mistakes. There are absolutely no raid encounters that you will fail by running condi, absolutely none. > > > > > > > > > > What you say is not even borne by the parsing data on raidar. A median weaver (hard) is still leading a median dragonhunter (faceroll easy) by about 7k DPS on keep construct as an example, and the gap gets even larger against condi builds on unfavorable fights to condi, which are the bosses you normally don't even bother pugging. > > > > > > > > > > Condi builds are no easier than a dragonhunter or holosmith. Playing a condi soulbeast is pretty kitten involved compared to playing any power build that is not a weaver. > > > > > > > > > > You people always say to wait and see, but I don't need to wait to know what I'll see. > > > > > > > > > > Mirage was wrecked out of existence, as was scourge. 10k+ dps loss in their "balance" changes, removing the specs completely from raiding outside the niche epidemic one trick pony. > > > > > > > > On KC, nice of you to cherry pick the one fight ele has been the best at because of large hit box. > > > > > > > > VG > > > > Power builds median 11k except yolosmith at 13k > > > > Condi builds median 10k > > > > > > > > Gorseval > > > > Power builds median12-14k weaver is ahead but not by much. > > > > Condi builds median 12-15k > > > > > > > > Sabetha > > > > Power builds median 9-12k holosmith being the exception at 15k > > > > Condi builds median 12-14k > > > > Note: this depends entirely on who has to jump, usually power builds but in a full condi comp condi jumps too so these numbers will always be weird. > > > > > > > > Slothasor > > > > Power builds median 10-12k > > > > Condi builds median all close to 10k > > > > > > > > Bandit trio > > > > No data. > > > > > > > > Matthias > > > > Power builds median 7.5-8.5k with holosmith hitting 10.6k alone > > > > Condi builds median 10.6-14k most are 11k range and only mirage is top for obvious reasons. > > > > > > > > Escort > > > > No data. > > > > > > > > KC > > > > Power builds median 17-20k with weaver at 25k but this fight is heavily skewed towards burst which is where power shines. > > > > Condi builds median 11.7-13k doubtful they would fail for running condi though. > > > > > > > > Xera - only taking first half of fight as teleports skew numbers a lot but the actual on boss fight changes very little. > > > > Power builds median 8.3-11k lots of spread most in the lower part of range > > > > Condi builds median 10-11k > > > > > > > > Cairn > > > > Power builds median 6-14k there’s such a massive spread here that comparing is almost impossible most 10k or below. > > > > Condi builds median 10-19k a big spread but all condi builds are noticeably outperforming most power builds. > > > > > > > > Mursaat Overseer > > > > Power builds median 19-22k DD and tempest noticeably lower 13 and 15k respectively > > > > Condi builds median 19-24k there are some further down, weaver, scourge and engineer all in 16-17k, I don’t count reaper as this is after the changes forcing it away from condi. > > > > > > > > Samarog > > > > Power builds median 8-11.5k > > > > Condi build median 7-9k this fight clearly hurts condi because of invuln phases but condi is much better on Rigom phase and tighter median. > > > > > > > > Deimos > > > > Power builds median 10.5-14k only weaver is 14k most are 10.5k or lower. > > > > Condi builds median 11k most are around this mark give or take. > > > > > > > > I won’t include wing 5 as it’s too new for reliable data. I discounted outdated builds mostly and obviously discounted condi druid as it’s a support spec in dps clothing. Data is from 28th Nov patch. Numbers are approximated unless a range is given. > > > > > > > > So yeah apart from 2 fights the median weaver isn’t massively doing more dps over the fight with them performing worse in other fights. There’s also about the same number of fights skewed to condi builds as there are skewed to power builds. Not seeing where condi is being made to be a worse choice, I mean we can start looking at 90th percentile if you want but generally speaking condi reigns supreme for a fair chunk of it with weaver being one of the only consistant power builds to pull away in most fights but most power builds lag behind till MO and the rest of wing 4 and yes I mean the only 3 you consider competitive. We shouldn’t compare power and condi on KC and Cairn imo because the fights heavily favour one over the other respectively. > > > > > > > > Edit: likewise **Matthias and Samarog favour condi and power respectively** so comparisons on them are not good to make either. However one thing is clear, there’s very few fights where running a condi comp for whatever reason instead of power will cause you to fail with maybe the exception of KC if you have 5 median condi dps, they would have to be pulling 90th percentile numbers to clear that I would think. > > > > > > 2-3k dps difference per dps slot result like 10k-15k total dps difference .and why holosmith has to be something special ? its not like its insanely hard to play . > > > and how you thought samarog favour condi and power respectively . > > > and for many bosses , power build is better for mechanic like shard clean , cannon etc . > > > > > > > **I said Matthias and Samarog then mentioned condi and power, my use of the word respectively indicates that condi is better on Matthias and power on Samarog.** I believe English isn’t your first language so don’t worry about it I probably could reword it for non English speakers. > > I generally call out abnormalities so if one particular build is doing more than the others like I said for mirage on Matthias however on Cairn there is just too wide a variance to really say anything other than the trend is all condi builds outperform all but 1 power build. Holosmith is fairly often an outlier. > > A scourge will deal with shards better than any power build and you won’t fail Xera because you bring condition builds with many able to deal with them at range while if power options were used outside of the 3 main picks they tend to be melee only which has its flaws too. I also mentioned the cannon aspect on Sabetha in the note stating that numbers here are weird because power builds tend to be the ones jumping, as in going to cannons. > > You won't fail bosses by bringing power reaper or revenant either, but that doesn't mean there are incentives for running them when you can run builds that are ahead by 20-30% (which is the gap you brought up for all those boss reports). You say I'm cherrypicking yet you evaluate the fight with only boss damage in mind and no add cleaving or burst considerations, and you disregarded wing 5's world clear strategies. > > A scourge will not deal with shards better than an elementalist, and you don't even need a scourge because the banner slave can just longbow burst the shard out. Whatever advantage a scourge offers for the shards means taking the raid DPS hit of bringing a scourge to begin with -- necromancer already being the slowest ramp up condition class in the game. > > All of these condi builds also have horrendous CC, whereas guardian and holosmith have incredibly good CC in their optimal builds. > > I don't even know how you claim Samarog favors condi. The constant condi ramp up wipes from his assaults and bubble phase gut condi classes, and during prisoner phase burst DPS is far better. > > For most of the "hard" fights power is beating condi, and that's right NOW. Not after the patch where the difference will be even more marked. It doesn't even cover fractal CM's where weavers and dragonhunters and holosmiths already reign supreme. > > The idea that power is weak and condi needs more ramp up is absurd. The competitive power builds are more than fine, it's just that there are only 3 classes with viable power builds vs. every class but engineer (and mesmer/necro having garbage tier specs for both condi and power) having a viable condi spec. If you bothered to read you’d see not only that I said Samarog favoured power but I repeated this again for Musu as s/he doesn’t speak English as a main language. You do, so I would expect you to not only know what the word respectively means but also how it is used in a sentence. I emboldened the part just incase you have trouble seeing it. I don’t count cleave as it pads numbers considerably, you would obviously take it into consideration when looking at team comp but for comparisons you have to draw the line somewhere and it’s unfair to compare a builds with low cleave to builds with high cleave as the ones with high cleave will have a higher dps that doesn’t necessarily translate to the boss dying quicker. I discounted wing 5 for a good reason, it hasn’t been out long enough for there to be 1) accurate and reliable logs, the median will be massively skewed till the majority of players are on farm mode and 2) best tactics are still being formulated. Epidemic means you don’t have to take any DPS off the boss and a good scourge will hit about 25k after about 20s and we aren’t factoring in any epidemic bounce fun which can be used by one of the scourges to be more than competitive with any other build. This is why people use scourges, and some other utility. I already said condition builds are much easier to play, much more simple rotation and have less requirements like over 90% health, target stays in a symbol, need to have 6 boons or a specific boon like aegis and regal etc. This is the advantage to condition builds, being able to run them and not have to worry about anything, they give more reward for relatively little risk to fluffing it up. “That said, a fundamental issue is that foes whose health pools allow them to survive a significant amount of time (beyond the point of condition stack ramping) are going to favor condition builds unless they specifically have mechanics which deal with conditions.” https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/interviews/arenanet-discusses-the-balance-in-tyria-1000012242#dxV6GlQ5KO24rwqU.99 This indicates we could see more changes (after winters day patch so a couple of months) than just those outlined in the winters day patch. We also have to remember the winters day patch isn’t going to be a huge one, it’ll be a small patch and only affect a few skills most likely so we won’t see a massive shift till the full changes come in January or February. I would expect to see a slight increase in dps of conditions builds with them hitting 35-40k on golems but having a longer ramp up which would make for a more polarising distinction between condition and power builds and what you use for which boss. This is why I have said wait and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levetty.1279 Posted December 10, 2017 Author Share Posted December 10, 2017 I mean apharma view of balance is that if it makes the game less fun for the people actually playing then its a good change, its not a surprise he likes this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genesis.5169 Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 Meanwhile warriors running around spvp wrecking everything.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"musu.9205" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > Of course we will have to wait and see how the changes go through, it may mean only certain skills are changed (likely because they said it’s not a large patch) while many are still left intact so the changes won’t be huge and ramp up times aren’t affected too much. There’s also a big difference between skills used for PvE and PvP as well as how they behave, generally most people have few issues with offhand torch on ranger because it’s easy to dodge and you can walk out of bonfire, same with many skills like this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also as far as condi vs power in raids goes, currently while “top raid fights favour power builds” this depends entirely on who is playing. Maybe it is for the top 5% of players when likewise playing in a group solely comprised of top players who can support them doing that DPS but most raid groups aren’t like that are they? A lot have these 1 or 2 players that are being carried a bit by the others, some have people carried a lot. Condi builds also synergise better which is a point a lot of people are missing and I find it utter lunacy that no-one seems to be remembering that epidemic is the absolute best cleave in raids bar non, even meteor doesn’t hold a candle to epi especially when you’re in a group where all dps is condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi also has many other things going for it in a lot of builds, if you fluff up the rotation a little or are interrupted it’s less of an issue but on power builds you can get set back by a lot and never fully recover. Condi doesn’t need to be over a health threshold to do maximum damage and has much more simple rotations most of the time offering high dps for low complexity, currently. Currently we have condition, damage over time builds, spiking up to max dps within seconds of entering a fight, sure it’s not as front loaded as some power builds but no way you can say it’s good for the game to have DoT builds putting that much condi out so quick in any mode as it doesn’t make condi vs power an interesting choice at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This whole thread stinks of what qT and top raid guilds tell people not to be, class kittens. Wait for the changes to come through then see how the ramp up is affected, it’s doubtful any condi class will fall out of use because as I say they’re much more simple and less affected by mistakes. There are absolutely no raid encounters that you will fail by running condi, absolutely none. > > > > > > > > > > > > What you say is not even borne by the parsing data on raidar. A median weaver (hard) is still leading a median dragonhunter (faceroll easy) by about 7k DPS on keep construct as an example, and the gap gets even larger against condi builds on unfavorable fights to condi, which are the bosses you normally don't even bother pugging. > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi builds are no easier than a dragonhunter or holosmith. Playing a condi soulbeast is pretty kitten involved compared to playing any power build that is not a weaver. > > > > > > > > > > > > You people always say to wait and see, but I don't need to wait to know what I'll see. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage was wrecked out of existence, as was scourge. 10k+ dps loss in their "balance" changes, removing the specs completely from raiding outside the niche epidemic one trick pony. > > > > > > > > > > On KC, nice of you to cherry pick the one fight ele has been the best at because of large hit box. > > > > > > > > > > VG > > > > > Power builds median 11k except yolosmith at 13k > > > > > Condi builds median 10k > > > > > > > > > > Gorseval > > > > > Power builds median12-14k weaver is ahead but not by much. > > > > > Condi builds median 12-15k > > > > > > > > > > Sabetha > > > > > Power builds median 9-12k holosmith being the exception at 15k > > > > > Condi builds median 12-14k > > > > > Note: this depends entirely on who has to jump, usually power builds but in a full condi comp condi jumps too so these numbers will always be weird. > > > > > > > > > > Slothasor > > > > > Power builds median 10-12k > > > > > Condi builds median all close to 10k > > > > > > > > > > Bandit trio > > > > > No data. > > > > > > > > > > Matthias > > > > > Power builds median 7.5-8.5k with holosmith hitting 10.6k alone > > > > > Condi builds median 10.6-14k most are 11k range and only mirage is top for obvious reasons. > > > > > > > > > > Escort > > > > > No data. > > > > > > > > > > KC > > > > > Power builds median 17-20k with weaver at 25k but this fight is heavily skewed towards burst which is where power shines. > > > > > Condi builds median 11.7-13k doubtful they would fail for running condi though. > > > > > > > > > > Xera - only taking first half of fight as teleports skew numbers a lot but the actual on boss fight changes very little. > > > > > Power builds median 8.3-11k lots of spread most in the lower part of range > > > > > Condi builds median 10-11k > > > > > > > > > > Cairn > > > > > Power builds median 6-14k there’s such a massive spread here that comparing is almost impossible most 10k or below. > > > > > Condi builds median 10-19k a big spread but all condi builds are noticeably outperforming most power builds. > > > > > > > > > > Mursaat Overseer > > > > > Power builds median 19-22k DD and tempest noticeably lower 13 and 15k respectively > > > > > Condi builds median 19-24k there are some further down, weaver, scourge and engineer all in 16-17k, I don’t count reaper as this is after the changes forcing it away from condi. > > > > > > > > > > Samarog > > > > > Power builds median 8-11.5k > > > > > Condi build median 7-9k this fight clearly hurts condi because of invuln phases but condi is much better on Rigom phase and tighter median. > > > > > > > > > > Deimos > > > > > Power builds median 10.5-14k only weaver is 14k most are 10.5k or lower. > > > > > Condi builds median 11k most are around this mark give or take. > > > > > > > > > > I won’t include wing 5 as it’s too new for reliable data. I discounted outdated builds mostly and obviously discounted condi druid as it’s a support spec in dps clothing. Data is from 28th Nov patch. Numbers are approximated unless a range is given. > > > > > > > > > > So yeah apart from 2 fights the median weaver isn’t massively doing more dps over the fight with them performing worse in other fights. There’s also about the same number of fights skewed to condi builds as there are skewed to power builds. Not seeing where condi is being made to be a worse choice, I mean we can start looking at 90th percentile if you want but generally speaking condi reigns supreme for a fair chunk of it with weaver being one of the only consistant power builds to pull away in most fights but most power builds lag behind till MO and the rest of wing 4 and yes I mean the only 3 you consider competitive. We shouldn’t compare power and condi on KC and Cairn imo because the fights heavily favour one over the other respectively. > > > > > > > > > > Edit: likewise **Matthias and Samarog favour condi and power respectively** so comparisons on them are not good to make either. However one thing is clear, there’s very few fights where running a condi comp for whatever reason instead of power will cause you to fail with maybe the exception of KC if you have 5 median condi dps, they would have to be pulling 90th percentile numbers to clear that I would think. > > > > > > > > 2-3k dps difference per dps slot result like 10k-15k total dps difference .and why holosmith has to be something special ? its not like its insanely hard to play . > > > > and how you thought samarog favour condi and power respectively . > > > > and for many bosses , power build is better for mechanic like shard clean , cannon etc . > > > > > > > > > > **I said Matthias and Samarog then mentioned condi and power, my use of the word respectively indicates that condi is better on Matthias and power on Samarog.** I believe English isn’t your first language so don’t worry about it I probably could reword it for non English speakers. > > > I generally call out abnormalities so if one particular build is doing more than the others like I said for mirage on Matthias however on Cairn there is just too wide a variance to really say anything other than the trend is all condi builds outperform all but 1 power build. Holosmith is fairly often an outlier. > > > A scourge will deal with shards better than any power build and you won’t fail Xera because you bring condition builds with many able to deal with them at range while if power options were used outside of the 3 main picks they tend to be melee only which has its flaws too. I also mentioned the cannon aspect on Sabetha in the note stating that numbers here are weird because power builds tend to be the ones jumping, as in going to cannons. > > > > You won't fail bosses by bringing power reaper or revenant either, but that doesn't mean there are incentives for running them when you can run builds that are ahead by 20-30% (which is the gap you brought up for all those boss reports). You say I'm cherrypicking yet you evaluate the fight with only boss damage in mind and no add cleaving or burst considerations, and you disregarded wing 5's world clear strategies. > > > > A scourge will not deal with shards better than an elementalist, and you don't even need a scourge because the banner slave can just longbow burst the shard out. Whatever advantage a scourge offers for the shards means taking the raid DPS hit of bringing a scourge to begin with -- necromancer already being the slowest ramp up condition class in the game. > > > > All of these condi builds also have horrendous CC, whereas guardian and holosmith have incredibly good CC in their optimal builds. > > > > I don't even know how you claim Samarog favors condi. The constant condi ramp up wipes from his assaults and bubble phase gut condi classes, and during prisoner phase burst DPS is far better. > > > > For most of the "hard" fights power is beating condi, and that's right NOW. Not after the patch where the difference will be even more marked. It doesn't even cover fractal CM's where weavers and dragonhunters and holosmiths already reign supreme. > > > > The idea that power is weak and condi needs more ramp up is absurd. The competitive power builds are more than fine, it's just that there are only 3 classes with viable power builds vs. every class but engineer (and mesmer/necro having garbage tier specs for both condi and power) having a viable condi spec. > > If you bothered to read you’d see not only that I said Samarog favoured power but I repeated this again for Musu as s/he doesn’t speak English as a main language. You do, so I would expect you to not only know what the word respectively means but also how it is used in a sentence. I emboldened the part just incase you have trouble seeing it. > > I don’t count cleave as it pads numbers considerably, you would obviously take it into consideration when looking at team comp but for comparisons you have to draw the line somewhere and it’s unfair to compare a builds with low cleave to builds with high cleave as the ones with high cleave will have a higher dps that doesn’t necessarily translate to the boss dying quicker. I discounted wing 5 for a good reason, it hasn’t been out long enough for there to be 1) accurate and reliable logs, the median will be massively skewed till the majority of players are on farm mode and 2) best tactics are still being formulated. > > Epidemic means you don’t have to take any DPS off the boss and a good scourge will hit about 25k after about 20s and we aren’t factoring in any epidemic bounce fun which can be used by one of the scourges to be more than competitive with any other build. This is why people use scourges, and some other utility. > > I already said condition builds are much easier to play, much more simple rotation and have less requirements like over 90% health, target stays in a symbol, need to have 6 boons or a specific boon like aegis and regal etc. This is the advantage to condition builds, being able to run them and not have to worry about anything, they give more reward for relatively little risk to fluffing it up. > > “That said, a fundamental issue is that foes whose health pools allow them to survive a significant amount of time (beyond the point of condition stack ramping) are going to favor condition builds unless they specifically have mechanics which deal with conditions.” > > https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/interviews/arenanet-discusses-the-balance-in-tyria-1000012242#dxV6GlQ5KO24rwqU.99 > > This indicates we could see more changes (after winters day patch so a couple of months) than just those outlined in the winters day patch. We also have to remember the winters day patch isn’t going to be a huge one, it’ll be a small patch and only affect a few skills most likely so we won’t see a massive shift till the full changes come in January or February. I would expect to see a slight increase in dps of conditions builds with them hitting 35-40k on golems but having a longer ramp up which would make for a more polarising distinction between condition and power builds and what you use for which boss. This is why I have said wait and see what happens. Stop spewing this notion that cleave damage is padding. It is not padding if the adds need to die. Shards will need to die. Slublings are preferred dead. Sabethas's adds need to die, Gorseval adds need to die. Wing 5 adds in particular need to die. Priority add damage matters. Raids are not merely tunneling a boss. Power is superior. You're talking like keeping a boss on a syymbol for 6 seconds rarely happens, or that with harrier druids the group isn't sitting at over 90% health the vast majority of the fight. Dragonhunter is faceroll. Completely so. Far easier to get optimal numbers out of dragonhunter or holosmith than a condi soulbeast or renegade, let alone a necro which takes the cake in complexity with epidemic bouncing shenanigans and managing shades. Condi builds even lose far more for interrupting their auto chains than power builds do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 I think people are overreacting over things which are not in their hand. This change will have to do way more with how it gets implemented versus what the implementation idea is. Here is what it basically boils down to: - arenanet successfully changes condi damage to be less upfront, but similar long-term (which they won't because they always overreach when changing things) Good for spvp and wvw, not world ending for pve. - arenanet bury condi damage by overreaching and the new long-term damage is substantially lower than current condi damage Again, good for spvp and wvw, removes most condi from high end pve content. - arenanet improve long-term condi damage while gutting its burst Might give a true tradeoff between survival and burst for spvp and wvw, pve some builds might become better. What ever happens, we are in no position to be able to determine which of the three scenarios will happen. All we can do is wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"musu.9205" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > Of course we will have to wait and see how the changes go through, it may mean only certain skills are changed (likely because they said it’s not a large patch) while many are still left intact so the changes won’t be huge and ramp up times aren’t affected too much. There’s also a big difference between skills used for PvE and PvP as well as how they behave, generally most people have few issues with offhand torch on ranger because it’s easy to dodge and you can walk out of bonfire, same with many skills like this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also as far as condi vs power in raids goes, currently while “top raid fights favour power builds” this depends entirely on who is playing. Maybe it is for the top 5% of players when likewise playing in a group solely comprised of top players who can support them doing that DPS but most raid groups aren’t like that are they? A lot have these 1 or 2 players that are being carried a bit by the others, some have people carried a lot. Condi builds also synergise better which is a point a lot of people are missing and I find it utter lunacy that no-one seems to be remembering that epidemic is the absolute best cleave in raids bar non, even meteor doesn’t hold a candle to epi especially when you’re in a group where all dps is condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi also has many other things going for it in a lot of builds, if you fluff up the rotation a little or are interrupted it’s less of an issue but on power builds you can get set back by a lot and never fully recover. Condi doesn’t need to be over a health threshold to do maximum damage and has much more simple rotations most of the time offering high dps for low complexity, currently. Currently we have condition, damage over time builds, spiking up to max dps within seconds of entering a fight, sure it’s not as front loaded as some power builds but no way you can say it’s good for the game to have DoT builds putting that much condi out so quick in any mode as it doesn’t make condi vs power an interesting choice at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This whole thread stinks of what qT and top raid guilds tell people not to be, class kittens. Wait for the changes to come through then see how the ramp up is affected, it’s doubtful any condi class will fall out of use because as I say they’re much more simple and less affected by mistakes. There are absolutely no raid encounters that you will fail by running condi, absolutely none. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What you say is not even borne by the parsing data on raidar. A median weaver (hard) is still leading a median dragonhunter (faceroll easy) by about 7k DPS on keep construct as an example, and the gap gets even larger against condi builds on unfavorable fights to condi, which are the bosses you normally don't even bother pugging. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi builds are no easier than a dragonhunter or holosmith. Playing a condi soulbeast is pretty kitten involved compared to playing any power build that is not a weaver. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You people always say to wait and see, but I don't need to wait to know what I'll see. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage was wrecked out of existence, as was scourge. 10k+ dps loss in their "balance" changes, removing the specs completely from raiding outside the niche epidemic one trick pony. > > > > > > > > > > > > On KC, nice of you to cherry pick the one fight ele has been the best at because of large hit box. > > > > > > > > > > > > VG > > > > > > Power builds median 11k except yolosmith at 13k > > > > > > Condi builds median 10k > > > > > > > > > > > > Gorseval > > > > > > Power builds median12-14k weaver is ahead but not by much. > > > > > > Condi builds median 12-15k > > > > > > > > > > > > Sabetha > > > > > > Power builds median 9-12k holosmith being the exception at 15k > > > > > > Condi builds median 12-14k > > > > > > Note: this depends entirely on who has to jump, usually power builds but in a full condi comp condi jumps too so these numbers will always be weird. > > > > > > > > > > > > Slothasor > > > > > > Power builds median 10-12k > > > > > > Condi builds median all close to 10k > > > > > > > > > > > > Bandit trio > > > > > > No data. > > > > > > > > > > > > Matthias > > > > > > Power builds median 7.5-8.5k with holosmith hitting 10.6k alone > > > > > > Condi builds median 10.6-14k most are 11k range and only mirage is top for obvious reasons. > > > > > > > > > > > > Escort > > > > > > No data. > > > > > > > > > > > > KC > > > > > > Power builds median 17-20k with weaver at 25k but this fight is heavily skewed towards burst which is where power shines. > > > > > > Condi builds median 11.7-13k doubtful they would fail for running condi though. > > > > > > > > > > > > Xera - only taking first half of fight as teleports skew numbers a lot but the actual on boss fight changes very little. > > > > > > Power builds median 8.3-11k lots of spread most in the lower part of range > > > > > > Condi builds median 10-11k > > > > > > > > > > > > Cairn > > > > > > Power builds median 6-14k there’s such a massive spread here that comparing is almost impossible most 10k or below. > > > > > > Condi builds median 10-19k a big spread but all condi builds are noticeably outperforming most power builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mursaat Overseer > > > > > > Power builds median 19-22k DD and tempest noticeably lower 13 and 15k respectively > > > > > > Condi builds median 19-24k there are some further down, weaver, scourge and engineer all in 16-17k, I don’t count reaper as this is after the changes forcing it away from condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > Samarog > > > > > > Power builds median 8-11.5k > > > > > > Condi build median 7-9k this fight clearly hurts condi because of invuln phases but condi is much better on Rigom phase and tighter median. > > > > > > > > > > > > Deimos > > > > > > Power builds median 10.5-14k only weaver is 14k most are 10.5k or lower. > > > > > > Condi builds median 11k most are around this mark give or take. > > > > > > > > > > > > I won’t include wing 5 as it’s too new for reliable data. I discounted outdated builds mostly and obviously discounted condi druid as it’s a support spec in dps clothing. Data is from 28th Nov patch. Numbers are approximated unless a range is given. > > > > > > > > > > > > So yeah apart from 2 fights the median weaver isn’t massively doing more dps over the fight with them performing worse in other fights. There’s also about the same number of fights skewed to condi builds as there are skewed to power builds. Not seeing where condi is being made to be a worse choice, I mean we can start looking at 90th percentile if you want but generally speaking condi reigns supreme for a fair chunk of it with weaver being one of the only consistant power builds to pull away in most fights but most power builds lag behind till MO and the rest of wing 4 and yes I mean the only 3 you consider competitive. We shouldn’t compare power and condi on KC and Cairn imo because the fights heavily favour one over the other respectively. > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: likewise **Matthias and Samarog favour condi and power respectively** so comparisons on them are not good to make either. However one thing is clear, there’s very few fights where running a condi comp for whatever reason instead of power will cause you to fail with maybe the exception of KC if you have 5 median condi dps, they would have to be pulling 90th percentile numbers to clear that I would think. > > > > > > > > > > 2-3k dps difference per dps slot result like 10k-15k total dps difference .and why holosmith has to be something special ? its not like its insanely hard to play . > > > > > and how you thought samarog favour condi and power respectively . > > > > > and for many bosses , power build is better for mechanic like shard clean , cannon etc . > > > > > > > > > > > > > **I said Matthias and Samarog then mentioned condi and power, my use of the word respectively indicates that condi is better on Matthias and power on Samarog.** I believe English isn’t your first language so don’t worry about it I probably could reword it for non English speakers. > > > > I generally call out abnormalities so if one particular build is doing more than the others like I said for mirage on Matthias however on Cairn there is just too wide a variance to really say anything other than the trend is all condi builds outperform all but 1 power build. Holosmith is fairly often an outlier. > > > > A scourge will deal with shards better than any power build and you won’t fail Xera because you bring condition builds with many able to deal with them at range while if power options were used outside of the 3 main picks they tend to be melee only which has its flaws too. I also mentioned the cannon aspect on Sabetha in the note stating that numbers here are weird because power builds tend to be the ones jumping, as in going to cannons. > > > > > > You won't fail bosses by bringing power reaper or revenant either, but that doesn't mean there are incentives for running them when you can run builds that are ahead by 20-30% (which is the gap you brought up for all those boss reports). You say I'm cherrypicking yet you evaluate the fight with only boss damage in mind and no add cleaving or burst considerations, and you disregarded wing 5's world clear strategies. > > > > > > A scourge will not deal with shards better than an elementalist, and you don't even need a scourge because the banner slave can just longbow burst the shard out. Whatever advantage a scourge offers for the shards means taking the raid DPS hit of bringing a scourge to begin with -- necromancer already being the slowest ramp up condition class in the game. > > > > > > All of these condi builds also have horrendous CC, whereas guardian and holosmith have incredibly good CC in their optimal builds. > > > > > > I don't even know how you claim Samarog favors condi. The constant condi ramp up wipes from his assaults and bubble phase gut condi classes, and during prisoner phase burst DPS is far better. > > > > > > For most of the "hard" fights power is beating condi, and that's right NOW. Not after the patch where the difference will be even more marked. It doesn't even cover fractal CM's where weavers and dragonhunters and holosmiths already reign supreme. > > > > > > The idea that power is weak and condi needs more ramp up is absurd. The competitive power builds are more than fine, it's just that there are only 3 classes with viable power builds vs. every class but engineer (and mesmer/necro having garbage tier specs for both condi and power) having a viable condi spec. > > > > If you bothered to read you’d see not only that I said Samarog favoured power but I repeated this again for Musu as s/he doesn’t speak English as a main language. You do, so I would expect you to not only know what the word respectively means but also how it is used in a sentence. I emboldened the part just incase you have trouble seeing it. > > > > I don’t count cleave as it pads numbers considerably, you would obviously take it into consideration when looking at team comp but for comparisons you have to draw the line somewhere and it’s unfair to compare a builds with low cleave to builds with high cleave as the ones with high cleave will have a higher dps that doesn’t necessarily translate to the boss dying quicker. I discounted wing 5 for a good reason, it hasn’t been out long enough for there to be 1) accurate and reliable logs, the median will be massively skewed till the majority of players are on farm mode and 2) best tactics are still being formulated. > > > > Epidemic means you don’t have to take any DPS off the boss and a good scourge will hit about 25k after about 20s and we aren’t factoring in any epidemic bounce fun which can be used by one of the scourges to be more than competitive with any other build. This is why people use scourges, and some other utility. > > > > I already said condition builds are much easier to play, much more simple rotation and have less requirements like over 90% health, target stays in a symbol, need to have 6 boons or a specific boon like aegis and regal etc. This is the advantage to condition builds, being able to run them and not have to worry about anything, they give more reward for relatively little risk to fluffing it up. > > > > “That said, a fundamental issue is that foes whose health pools allow them to survive a significant amount of time (beyond the point of condition stack ramping) are going to favor condition builds unless they specifically have mechanics which deal with conditions.” > > > > https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/interviews/arenanet-discusses-the-balance-in-tyria-1000012242#dxV6GlQ5KO24rwqU.99 > > > > This indicates we could see more changes (after winters day patch so a couple of months) than just those outlined in the winters day patch. We also have to remember the winters day patch isn’t going to be a huge one, it’ll be a small patch and only affect a few skills most likely so we won’t see a massive shift till the full changes come in January or February. I would expect to see a slight increase in dps of conditions builds with them hitting 35-40k on golems but having a longer ramp up which would make for a more polarising distinction between condition and power builds and what you use for which boss. This is why I have said wait and see what happens. > > Stop spewing this notion that cleave damage is padding. It is not padding if the adds need to die. Shards will need to die. Slublings are preferred dead. Sabethas's adds need to die, Gorseval adds need to die. Wing 5 adds in particular need to die. > > Priority add damage matters. Raids are not merely tunneling a boss. Power is superior. > > You're talking like keeping a boss on a syymbol for 6 seconds rarely happens, or that with harrier druids the group isn't sitting at over 90% health the vast majority of the fight. > > Dragonhunter is faceroll. Completely so. Far easier to get optimal numbers out of dragonhunter or holosmith than a condi soulbeast or renegade, let alone a necro which takes the cake in complexity with epidemic bouncing shenanigans and managing shades. Condi builds even lose far more for interrupting their auto chains than power builds do. Again, you can not compare builds for dps by looking at cleave, how do you rate the performance of a Condi Mesmer in a group with 2 soul beasts and 2 scourges? Do you automatically say the mesmer sucks because no cleave and so everyone else out dps the mesmer because they have higher cleave while the mesmer did a lot more damage to the boss? I already said it wasn’t irrelevant but you have to draw the line somewhere for comparing and generally speaking you look at boss dps. With a good group keeping a boss (obviously depending on the boss) in a symbol is easy but you didn’t mention a good group did you? You said median, the average, run of the mill group. The type where bosses run around more often, where mistakes happen from other members like the mesmer not getting rental and keeping it up 100% GL with high numbers there. Where Chrono doesn’t invuln through a meteor, where healer druids are brain afk so don’t keep scholar and before you say it, I’ve seen regular raid groups where at least one healer has been like this before the GotL changes which went on for a full year. As Cyninja said, we should wait and see, we aren’t getting the full scope of the patch at wintersday but if implemented correctly it will create a proper dynamic between power and condi. Right now there’s very little differentiation between the two outside of boss mechanics that penalise one over the other and that most condi rotations are much easier. Soulbeast in particular I find hard for you to call difficult, I mean it is literally stand behind the boss spam utilities, a few weapon skills, swap, bonfire, throw torch, auto. Hardly the most complex thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"musu.9205" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"Zenith.7301" said: > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > Of course we will have to wait and see how the changes go through, it may mean only certain skills are changed (likely because they said it’s not a large patch) while many are still left intact so the changes won’t be huge and ramp up times aren’t affected too much. There’s also a big difference between skills used for PvE and PvP as well as how they behave, generally most people have few issues with offhand torch on ranger because it’s easy to dodge and you can walk out of bonfire, same with many skills like this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also as far as condi vs power in raids goes, currently while “top raid fights favour power builds” this depends entirely on who is playing. Maybe it is for the top 5% of players when likewise playing in a group solely comprised of top players who can support them doing that DPS but most raid groups aren’t like that are they? A lot have these 1 or 2 players that are being carried a bit by the others, some have people carried a lot. Condi builds also synergise better which is a point a lot of people are missing and I find it utter lunacy that no-one seems to be remembering that epidemic is the absolute best cleave in raids bar non, even meteor doesn’t hold a candle to epi especially when you’re in a group where all dps is condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi also has many other things going for it in a lot of builds, if you fluff up the rotation a little or are interrupted it’s less of an issue but on power builds you can get set back by a lot and never fully recover. Condi doesn’t need to be over a health threshold to do maximum damage and has much more simple rotations most of the time offering high dps for low complexity, currently. Currently we have condition, damage over time builds, spiking up to max dps within seconds of entering a fight, sure it’s not as front loaded as some power builds but no way you can say it’s good for the game to have DoT builds putting that much condi out so quick in any mode as it doesn’t make condi vs power an interesting choice at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This whole thread stinks of what qT and top raid guilds tell people not to be, class kittens. Wait for the changes to come through then see how the ramp up is affected, it’s doubtful any condi class will fall out of use because as I say they’re much more simple and less affected by mistakes. There are absolutely no raid encounters that you will fail by running condi, absolutely none. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What you say is not even borne by the parsing data on raidar. A median weaver (hard) is still leading a median dragonhunter (faceroll easy) by about 7k DPS on keep construct as an example, and the gap gets even larger against condi builds on unfavorable fights to condi, which are the bosses you normally don't even bother pugging. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi builds are no easier than a dragonhunter or holosmith. Playing a condi soulbeast is pretty kitten involved compared to playing any power build that is not a weaver. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You people always say to wait and see, but I don't need to wait to know what I'll see. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage was wrecked out of existence, as was scourge. 10k+ dps loss in their "balance" changes, removing the specs completely from raiding outside the niche epidemic one trick pony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On KC, nice of you to cherry pick the one fight ele has been the best at because of large hit box. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > VG > > > > > > > Power builds median 11k except yolosmith at 13k > > > > > > > Condi builds median 10k > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gorseval > > > > > > > Power builds median12-14k weaver is ahead but not by much. > > > > > > > Condi builds median 12-15k > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sabetha > > > > > > > Power builds median 9-12k holosmith being the exception at 15k > > > > > > > Condi builds median 12-14k > > > > > > > Note: this depends entirely on who has to jump, usually power builds but in a full condi comp condi jumps too so these numbers will always be weird. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Slothasor > > > > > > > Power builds median 10-12k > > > > > > > Condi builds median all close to 10k > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bandit trio > > > > > > > No data. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matthias > > > > > > > Power builds median 7.5-8.5k with holosmith hitting 10.6k alone > > > > > > > Condi builds median 10.6-14k most are 11k range and only mirage is top for obvious reasons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Escort > > > > > > > No data. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KC > > > > > > > Power builds median 17-20k with weaver at 25k but this fight is heavily skewed towards burst which is where power shines. > > > > > > > Condi builds median 11.7-13k doubtful they would fail for running condi though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Xera - only taking first half of fight as teleports skew numbers a lot but the actual on boss fight changes very little. > > > > > > > Power builds median 8.3-11k lots of spread most in the lower part of range > > > > > > > Condi builds median 10-11k > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cairn > > > > > > > Power builds median 6-14k there’s such a massive spread here that comparing is almost impossible most 10k or below. > > > > > > > Condi builds median 10-19k a big spread but all condi builds are noticeably outperforming most power builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mursaat Overseer > > > > > > > Power builds median 19-22k DD and tempest noticeably lower 13 and 15k respectively > > > > > > > Condi builds median 19-24k there are some further down, weaver, scourge and engineer all in 16-17k, I don’t count reaper as this is after the changes forcing it away from condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Samarog > > > > > > > Power builds median 8-11.5k > > > > > > > Condi build median 7-9k this fight clearly hurts condi because of invuln phases but condi is much better on Rigom phase and tighter median. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Deimos > > > > > > > Power builds median 10.5-14k only weaver is 14k most are 10.5k or lower. > > > > > > > Condi builds median 11k most are around this mark give or take. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I won’t include wing 5 as it’s too new for reliable data. I discounted outdated builds mostly and obviously discounted condi druid as it’s a support spec in dps clothing. Data is from 28th Nov patch. Numbers are approximated unless a range is given. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So yeah apart from 2 fights the median weaver isn’t massively doing more dps over the fight with them performing worse in other fights. There’s also about the same number of fights skewed to condi builds as there are skewed to power builds. Not seeing where condi is being made to be a worse choice, I mean we can start looking at 90th percentile if you want but generally speaking condi reigns supreme for a fair chunk of it with weaver being one of the only consistant power builds to pull away in most fights but most power builds lag behind till MO and the rest of wing 4 and yes I mean the only 3 you consider competitive. We shouldn’t compare power and condi on KC and Cairn imo because the fights heavily favour one over the other respectively. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: likewise **Matthias and Samarog favour condi and power respectively** so comparisons on them are not good to make either. However one thing is clear, there’s very few fights where running a condi comp for whatever reason instead of power will cause you to fail with maybe the exception of KC if you have 5 median condi dps, they would have to be pulling 90th percentile numbers to clear that I would think. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2-3k dps difference per dps slot result like 10k-15k total dps difference .and why holosmith has to be something special ? its not like its insanely hard to play . > > > > > > and how you thought samarog favour condi and power respectively . > > > > > > and for many bosses , power build is better for mechanic like shard clean , cannon etc . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **I said Matthias and Samarog then mentioned condi and power, my use of the word respectively indicates that condi is better on Matthias and power on Samarog.** I believe English isn’t your first language so don’t worry about it I probably could reword it for non English speakers. > > > > > I generally call out abnormalities so if one particular build is doing more than the others like I said for mirage on Matthias however on Cairn there is just too wide a variance to really say anything other than the trend is all condi builds outperform all but 1 power build. Holosmith is fairly often an outlier. > > > > > A scourge will deal with shards better than any power build and you won’t fail Xera because you bring condition builds with many able to deal with them at range while if power options were used outside of the 3 main picks they tend to be melee only which has its flaws too. I also mentioned the cannon aspect on Sabetha in the note stating that numbers here are weird because power builds tend to be the ones jumping, as in going to cannons. > > > > > > > > You won't fail bosses by bringing power reaper or revenant either, but that doesn't mean there are incentives for running them when you can run builds that are ahead by 20-30% (which is the gap you brought up for all those boss reports). You say I'm cherrypicking yet you evaluate the fight with only boss damage in mind and no add cleaving or burst considerations, and you disregarded wing 5's world clear strategies. > > > > > > > > A scourge will not deal with shards better than an elementalist, and you don't even need a scourge because the banner slave can just longbow burst the shard out. Whatever advantage a scourge offers for the shards means taking the raid DPS hit of bringing a scourge to begin with -- necromancer already being the slowest ramp up condition class in the game. > > > > > > > > All of these condi builds also have horrendous CC, whereas guardian and holosmith have incredibly good CC in their optimal builds. > > > > > > > > I don't even know how you claim Samarog favors condi. The constant condi ramp up wipes from his assaults and bubble phase gut condi classes, and during prisoner phase burst DPS is far better. > > > > > > > > For most of the "hard" fights power is beating condi, and that's right NOW. Not after the patch where the difference will be even more marked. It doesn't even cover fractal CM's where weavers and dragonhunters and holosmiths already reign supreme. > > > > > > > > The idea that power is weak and condi needs more ramp up is absurd. The competitive power builds are more than fine, it's just that there are only 3 classes with viable power builds vs. every class but engineer (and mesmer/necro having garbage tier specs for both condi and power) having a viable condi spec. > > > > > > If you bothered to read you’d see not only that I said Samarog favoured power but I repeated this again for Musu as s/he doesn’t speak English as a main language. You do, so I would expect you to not only know what the word respectively means but also how it is used in a sentence. I emboldened the part just incase you have trouble seeing it. > > > > > > I don’t count cleave as it pads numbers considerably, you would obviously take it into consideration when looking at team comp but for comparisons you have to draw the line somewhere and it’s unfair to compare a builds with low cleave to builds with high cleave as the ones with high cleave will have a higher dps that doesn’t necessarily translate to the boss dying quicker. I discounted wing 5 for a good reason, it hasn’t been out long enough for there to be 1) accurate and reliable logs, the median will be massively skewed till the majority of players are on farm mode and 2) best tactics are still being formulated. > > > > > > Epidemic means you don’t have to take any DPS off the boss and a good scourge will hit about 25k after about 20s and we aren’t factoring in any epidemic bounce fun which can be used by one of the scourges to be more than competitive with any other build. This is why people use scourges, and some other utility. > > > > > > I already said condition builds are much easier to play, much more simple rotation and have less requirements like over 90% health, target stays in a symbol, need to have 6 boons or a specific boon like aegis and regal etc. This is the advantage to condition builds, being able to run them and not have to worry about anything, they give more reward for relatively little risk to fluffing it up. > > > > > > “That said, a fundamental issue is that foes whose health pools allow them to survive a significant amount of time (beyond the point of condition stack ramping) are going to favor condition builds unless they specifically have mechanics which deal with conditions.” > > > > > > https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/interviews/arenanet-discusses-the-balance-in-tyria-1000012242#dxV6GlQ5KO24rwqU.99 > > > > > > This indicates we could see more changes (after winters day patch so a couple of months) than just those outlined in the winters day patch. We also have to remember the winters day patch isn’t going to be a huge one, it’ll be a small patch and only affect a few skills most likely so we won’t see a massive shift till the full changes come in January or February. I would expect to see a slight increase in dps of conditions builds with them hitting 35-40k on golems but having a longer ramp up which would make for a more polarising distinction between condition and power builds and what you use for which boss. This is why I have said wait and see what happens. > > > > Stop spewing this notion that cleave damage is padding. It is not padding if the adds need to die. Shards will need to die. Slublings are preferred dead. Sabethas's adds need to die, Gorseval adds need to die. Wing 5 adds in particular need to die. > > > > Priority add damage matters. Raids are not merely tunneling a boss. Power is superior. > > > > You're talking like keeping a boss on a syymbol for 6 seconds rarely happens, or that with harrier druids the group isn't sitting at over 90% health the vast majority of the fight. > > > > Dragonhunter is faceroll. Completely so. Far easier to get optimal numbers out of dragonhunter or holosmith than a condi soulbeast or renegade, let alone a necro which takes the cake in complexity with epidemic bouncing shenanigans and managing shades. Condi builds even lose far more for interrupting their auto chains than power builds do. > > Again, you can not compare builds for dps by looking at cleave, how do you rate the performance of a Condi Mesmer in a group with 2 soul beasts and 2 scourges? Do you automatically say the mesmer sucks because no cleave and so everyone else out dps the mesmer because they have higher cleave while the mesmer did a lot more damage to the boss? I already said it wasn’t irrelevant but you have to draw the line somewhere for comparing and generally speaking you look at boss dps. > > With a good group keeping a boss (obviously depending on the boss) in a symbol is easy but you didn’t mention a good group did you? You said median, the average, run of the mill group. The type where bosses run around more often, where mistakes happen from other members like the mesmer not getting rental and keeping it up 100% GL with high numbers there. Where Chrono doesn’t invuln through a meteor, where healer druids are brain afk so don’t keep scholar and before you say it, I’ve seen regular raid groups where at least one healer has been like this before the GotL changes which went on for a full year. > > As Cyninja said, we should wait and see, we aren’t getting the full scope of the patch at wintersday but if implemented correctly it will create a proper dynamic between power and condi. Right now there’s very little differentiation between the two outside of boss mechanics that penalise one over the other and that most condi rotations are much easier. Soulbeast in particular I find hard for you to call difficult, I mean it is literally stand behind the boss spam utilities, a few weapon skills, swap, bonfire, throw torch, auto. Hardly the most complex thing. That is not a median group. You're taking the worst case scenarios to prop up the standing of condition builds. Most bosses will not be moved out of a symbol before it expires. And in comparison between mirage and soulbeast before they totally destroyed mirage, now soulbeast and renegade deal more boss damage on top of cleave, which is why I always advocated that the lead mirage would need to have in boss DPS would have to be large enough to compensate for its utter lack of cleave. You can stack renegades and soulbeasts and deal well enough with an encounter. Try a Xera with just mirages and watch how much worse the fight gets. It tells you right away the value of having cleave/aoe in your comp. Totally disregarding keep construct's burst phase, dealing with the adds with a mirage make up would be disastrous. Same goes for gorseval. It's just terrible PvE balance when a class with no cleave whatsoever isn't tuned properly to make up for those shortcomings. Yes, I say right now the mesmer sucks anywhere outside Matthias thanks to their negligent approach to PvE balance. It's like arguing that a power dagger thief doing 32k (it doesn't, but for the sake of argument let's assume it does that well) DPS is good when you take into account that backstab is a single target and the dagger auto only hits two targets. It's also why I find the current state of weaver just atrocious. First of all, a weapon like staff should never be outDPS'ing the elementalist's melee weapons. It is a ranged weapons with massive aoe/cleave. And yet here we are in a balance state where a class with range and aoe/cleave capabilities is eclipsing builds that only do one thing well. A dragonhunter with all his cleave, group blocks, and CC should not come even close to selfish condition builds with lower aoe, far less CC, and little utility at all. But we all know this game is balanced for PvP first above all things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman.5829 Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 nerfs? what nerfs? Mesmer got buffed even more to the point that now mesmer is an immortal god in the hands of a good player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 > @"Hitman.5829" said: > nerfs? what nerfs? Mesmer got buffed even more to the point that now mesmer is an immortal god in the hands of a good player. Wants to start a fight. Doesn't find an appropriate topic on the forums, goes looking for one made before the patch was implemented because the title sounded good enough. Sorry, is spellbreaker not overpowered any longer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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