How many WvW guilds must leave the game?

[Caliburn.1845]

There are still a few guilds that want to play WvW and commanders looking for fights. The problem right now is that those numbers have declined so much that in certain match-ups, even during NA primetime there is no one to fight. This is leading to cascading systems failures as the guild running five nights a week only find people to fight two nights a week, so they cut down to run two nights a week out of boredom. The guilds on the opposing servers then find less groups to fight, and cut back their nights in WvW. The cycle perpetuates itself due to declining population and no motivation to play WvW outside of the fights themselves. This trend is exacerbated by locked servers, tanking, lag, boring meta, and all the rest of the problems that plague the gamemode.

 

We can't even stack a tier with all the guilds that want to fight each other anymore due to locked servers and relinks. It is a golden age to be a PPT guild, never has there been more unopposed objectives. It is a dark time to be a guild looking for people to fight.

[Optimator.3589]

Only been on Mag a bit over a month,so I can't comment for any of the guilds on the server, but there is a general distaste in team chat for the snoozefest that T1 usually presents, and we like to avoid it. BG seldom comes out to play without overwhelming numbers, and SoS only ever presents a fight when the trash blob known as TYSM rolls out with like 40 scourges and camps chokepoints.

 

T2 last week was great on the other hand. Thank you to YB and FA for some wonderful fights.

 

AFAIK, there is no effort afoot to get Mag opened back up, and most players I talk to would actually like to be an unlinked server.

[GrahamW.5397]

> @"Optimator.3589" said:

> Only been on Mag a bit over a month,so I can't comment for any of the guilds on the server, but there is a general distaste in team chat for the snoozefest that T1 usually presents, and we like to avoid it. BG seldom comes out to play without overwhelming numbers, and SoS only ever presents a fight when the trash blob known as TYSM rolls out with like 40 scourges and camps chokepoints.

>

> T2 last week was great on the other hand. Thank you to YB and FA for some wonderful fights.

>

> AFAIK, there is no effort afoot to get Mag opened back up, and most players I talk to would actually like to be an unlinked server.

 

Tbf theres a general distaste in teamchat on mag for everything and everyone.

[cobbah.3102]

Solution delete WvW and we all go PVE everyone will be happy then especially the WvW Devs, the ones who don't like PvE will leave the game . and live a long and fruitful life in the real world.

[shiri.4257]

There are plenty of fights. You just gotto stand against a fortified gate/wall underneath 50 dudes with ACs, canons, trebs, mortars and an opportune moment to pounce on your 20. And if you're lucky, you'll survive them before the ajam comes in to finish the job!

[morrolan.9608]

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> You appear to have no actual understanding of anyone's motivations.

>

> T1 for example communities are not tanking to avoid T1. They organized as a community, to minimize playtime as a server, in order to get their closed servers to open up and unlock.

 

Mag tank to get out of T1, many on SOS have stated they are trying to tank out of T1, many on other servers have said they tank to avoid BG in T1.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Caliburn.1845" said:

> There are still a few guilds that want to play WvW and commanders looking for fights. The problem right now is that those numbers have declined so much that in certain match-ups, even during NA primetime there is no one to fight. This is leading to cascading systems failures as the guild running five nights a week only find people to fight two nights a week, so they cut down to run two nights a week out of boredom. The guilds on the opposing servers then find less groups to fight, and cut back their nights in WvW. The cycle perpetuates itself due to declining population and no motivation to play WvW outside of the fights themselves. This trend is exacerbated by locked servers, tanking, lag, boring meta, and all the rest of the problems that plague the gamemode.

>

> We can't even stack a tier with all the guilds that want to fight each other anymore due to locked servers and relinks. It is a golden age to be a PPT guild, never has there been more unopposed objectives. It is a dark time to be a guild looking for people to fight.

 

That's what happens when combat is made into pure stinking ****, though.

 

People don't want to fight because there's no skilled play anymore. Days of 10v30 and 20v40 are gone. The roaming scene literally died with HoT with mass exoduses. The game's classes from a PvP perspective are objectively badly-designed and horrendously imbalanced. Power creep as run rampant. Tactical play has been erased. Poor profession/gear design is even why the servers lag.

 

If people wanna just smash blobs into a lagfest all day, that's on them, but anyone with any semblance of real interest in good PvP gameplay will immediately recognize how terrible this game's professions/PvP systems are and how over the past five years almost nothing has been done to address any of them.

[STIHL.2489]

Ok.. so.. beyond some pie in the sky idea of rebuilding the whole thing.. HOW can they "fix" WvW?

 

I think that is the real problem here.. it is a PvP game mode built on a PvE platform, and because of that the balance is skewed, in comparison to so say a MOBA.

[Blackarps.1974]

> @"Caliburn.1845" said:

> There are still a few guilds that want to play WvW and commanders looking for fights. The problem right now is that those numbers have declined so much that in certain match-ups, even during NA primetime there is no one to fight. This is leading to cascading systems failures as the guild running five nights a week only find people to fight two nights a week, so they cut down to run two nights a week out of boredom. The guilds on the opposing servers then find less groups to fight, and cut back their nights in WvW. The cycle perpetuates itself due to declining population and no motivation to play WvW outside of the fights themselves. This trend is exacerbated by locked servers, tanking, lag, boring meta, and all the rest of the problems that plague the gamemode.

>

> We can't even stack a tier with all the guilds that want to fight each other anymore due to locked servers and relinks. It is a golden age to be a PPT guild, never has there been more unopposed objectives. It is a dark time to be a guild looking for people to fight.

 

Pretty much the only person to hit the nail on the head here. On Mag we were winning fight after fight to the point we changed our guild tag or ran without tags to get fights. After 2-4 wipes, guilds would hop maps and we would literally have to chase them down. This then turned into guilds just running inside T3 keeps with siege out the wazoo. That's not fun in the slightest bit to play. Sitting at a T3 keep for an hour is a huge waste of everyone's time because even if you do get inside and wipe the enemy, its going to be a rinse and repeat 10 minutes later when they hop maps. Since we eventually ran out of fights, the guild leader quit and went to BDO. Him along with my old two guild leaders have all uninstalled and told me they don't plan on coming back unless something drastic changes...something none of them see happening to a 5 year old game.

 

As for the game mode itself, it is dying no matter what fantasy people want to live in. Lack of consistent updates is killing the mode along with everything Caliburn said.

Everyone is slowly hitting their breaking point with WvW. All the competitive guilds were out as soon as they heard GvGs wouldn't be supported. Its only a matter of time until the guilds running 30+ every raid quit because the leaders get burnt out of just mashing buttons against unorganized pugs not even half their size in number.

 

[Roxanne.6140]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> Ok.. so.. beyond some pie in the sky idea of rebuilding the whole thing.. HOW can they "fix" WvW?

>

> I think that is the real problem here.. it is a PvP game mode built on a PvE platform, and because of that the balance is skewed, in comparison to so say a MOBA.

 

Every game is built on a pve platform. In most games, they don't even have separate modes like gw2 does meaning they fight monsters and players in the same map and environment. That being said, don't you dare to touch my pve or I will get every single pve player known in gw2 with their 30k ap to come to wvw forums and run your post over! And you know how many there are. Rawr

[Titan.3472]

Noone cares about selfish guilds but their own members. Why would people on servers cares about guilds that kept jumping from a server to another one since game release, back then they didn't care of non-affiliated players who worked for their server instead for a specific guild so don't expect anyone now to feel sorry when you will leave. Farewell. And thanks for Nothing. xD

Edit : The only time when guilds had incentive to be the best and relevant was during tournament in wvw and there was 3 tourney : BG won 1st and 3rd. Every guilds after wvw tourney turn out to be useless and exploiting game mode for their own enjoyment pissing people right and left. You are too late tourney ended years ago. And this is why there is no reason to be sorry for any guild that had no server pride. They are the sole reason of the actual servers disarray people complain about.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Roxanne.6140" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > Ok.. so.. beyond some pie in the sky idea of rebuilding the whole thing.. HOW can they "fix" WvW?

> >

> > I think that is the real problem here.. it is a PvP game mode built on a PvE platform, and because of that the balance is skewed, in comparison to so say a MOBA.

>

> Every game is built on a pve platform. In most games, they don't even have separate modes like gw2 does meaning they fight monsters and players in the same map and environment. That being said, don't you dare to touch my pve or I will get every single pve player known in gw2 with their 30k ap to come to wvw forums and run your post over! And you know how many there are. Rawr

 

This is not true. Some games are built with PvP from the ground up, and then they try to fit that into a PvE environment.

 

Both fail, as, I have never seen a game that could balance a class/profession/whatever for both PvE and PvP. Just never seen it, and GW2 is not an exception to this, in fact they really make this evident to be honest.

 

If Anet really wants to save PvP, first they need to balance their "prfessions" and to do this, they should really consider making PvP only classes that Mirror PvE classes.

 

IE: PvE Engineer becomes a Siegemaster when you log into WvW, and while similar, it's designed with abilities and functions that lend itself with PvP in mind.. not PvE.

 

This way, they can focus on fitting and balancing the Engineer to be the best it can be for PvE (and not worry about how this will affect PvP)

 

And they can fit it's Mirror the Siegemaster to be the best it can be for PvP, without a worry of how to make them work cross platform.

 

But like I said.. so.. anyone got an idea that is not Pie in the Sky and otherwise Impossible?

[Roxanne.6140]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Roxanne.6140" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > Ok.. so.. beyond some pie in the sky idea of rebuilding the whole thing.. HOW can they "fix" WvW?

> > >

> > > I think that is the real problem here.. it is a PvP game mode built on a PvE platform, and because of that the balance is skewed, in comparison to so say a MOBA.

> >

> > Every game is built on a pve platform. In most games, they don't even have separate modes like gw2 does meaning they fight monsters and players in the same map and environment. That being said, don't you dare to touch my pve or I will get every single pve player known in gw2 with their 30k ap to come to wvw forums and run your post over! And you know how many there are. Rawr

>

> This is not true. Some games are built with PvP from the ground up, and then they try to fit that into a PvE environment.

>

> Both fail, as, I have never seen a game that could balance a class/profession/whatever for both PvE and PvP. Just never seen it, and GW2 is not an exception to this, in fact they really make this evident to be honest.

>

> If Anet really wants to save PvP, first they need to balance their "prfessions" and to do this, they should really consider making PvP only classes that Mirror PvE classes.

>

> IE: PvE Engineer becomes a Siegemaster when you log into WvW, and while similar, it's designed with abilities and functions that lend itself with PvP in mind.. not PvE.

>

> This way, they can focus on fitting and balancing the Engineer to be the best it can be for PvE (and not worry about how this will affect PvP)

>

> And they can fit it's Mirror the Siegemaster to be the best it can be for PvP, without a worry of how to make them work cross platform.

>

> But like I said.. so.. anyone got an idea that is not Pie in the Sky and otherwise Impossible?

 

see, you can't name a game with fully balanced classes for both pve and pvp. neither can i! EVen in traditional tank-dps-healer, there is no balance between them to even speak of because they are just different

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Roxanne.6140" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Roxanne.6140" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > Ok.. so.. beyond some pie in the sky idea of rebuilding the whole thing.. HOW can they "fix" WvW?

> > > >

> > > > I think that is the real problem here.. it is a PvP game mode built on a PvE platform, and because of that the balance is skewed, in comparison to so say a MOBA.

> > >

> > > Every game is built on a pve platform. In most games, they don't even have separate modes like gw2 does meaning they fight monsters and players in the same map and environment. That being said, don't you dare to touch my pve or I will get every single pve player known in gw2 with their 30k ap to come to wvw forums and run your post over! And you know how many there are. Rawr

> >

> > This is not true. Some games are built with PvP from the ground up, and then they try to fit that into a PvE environment.

> >

> > Both fail, as, I have never seen a game that could balance a class/profession/whatever for both PvE and PvP. Just never seen it, and GW2 is not an exception to this, in fact they really make this evident to be honest.

> >

> > If Anet really wants to save PvP, first they need to balance their "prfessions" and to do this, they should really consider making PvP only classes that Mirror PvE classes.

> >

> > IE: PvE Engineer becomes a Siegemaster when you log into WvW, and while similar, it's designed with abilities and functions that lend itself with PvP in mind.. not PvE.

> >

> > This way, they can focus on fitting and balancing the Engineer to be the best it can be for PvE (and not worry about how this will affect PvP)

> >

> > And they can fit it's Mirror the Siegemaster to be the best it can be for PvP, without a worry of how to make them work cross platform.

> >

> > But like I said.. so.. anyone got an idea that is not Pie in the Sky and otherwise Impossible?

>

> see, you can't name a game with fully balanced classes for both pve and pvp. neither can i! EVen in traditional tank-dps-healer, there is no balance between them to even speak of because they are just different

 

I have always been a strong proponent of the fact that Classes can't be balanced for PvP and PvE simultaneously.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Design should be based on PvP, numbers tweaked for PvE if necessary.

 

At the moment, design *and* numbers are intended for PvE.

[atheria.2837]

> @"Caliburn.1845" said:

> There are still a few guilds that want to play WvW and commanders looking for fights. The problem right now is that those numbers have declined so much that in certain match-ups, even during NA primetime there is no one to fight. This is leading to cascading systems failures as the guild running five nights a week only find people to fight two nights a week, so they cut down to run two nights a week out of boredom. The guilds on the opposing servers then find less groups to fight, and cut back their nights in WvW. The cycle perpetuates itself due to declining population and no motivation to play WvW outside of the fights themselves. This trend is exacerbated by locked servers, tanking, lag, boring meta, and all the rest of the problems that plague the gamemode.

>

> We can't even stack a tier with all the guilds that want to fight each other anymore due to locked servers and relinks. It is a golden age to be a PPT guild, never has there been more unopposed objectives. It is a dark time to be a guild looking for people to fight.

 

So the fix for this is?

 

Competition.

 

When I say exactly what you do, in different words, I am literally shouted down by some who don't seem to have

any grasp on what is going on on most servers.

 

My idea is to get rid of three ways, and go head to head, one server versus one server - that is real competition, but it gets no traction here.

Something needs to be done before there pretty much isn't even a Prime Time as I have seen on MANY other servers now, no tags, no comms

and no knowledge of the player next to you nor care for them - that's not WvW - not the way it's supposed to be as we understood it from

the beginning.

 

I have been on many other servers, more than half - I took a 'vacation' from my chosen home server and found the same problems or worse on all those I was

on for those three or four months.

 

They were long months - and my WvW play went from 7-12 hours a day - as you can attest to, we all did massive hours 'back then', but

now it's ridiculous to find 'like numbers' or even a commander's tag (which you are) most of the day until Prime Time and a bit after, maybe, some days.

 

The issues in WvW are compounding - and I can't see the makers doing a thing to stop the blood loss of players by the hundreds who

no longer play GW2 because of the mess that WvW is, their favorite and chosen mode of play.

[Chorazin.4107]

ded gaem. Not enough focus on balancing gear and classes in WvW for competitive fun play. Stagnant metas that change glacially slowly, how long was GWEN a thing? It probably still is a thing. How long have some traits, skills been useless in any game mode outside PvE?

 

The games mechanics were built from the ground up around small 5 man competitive team play capturing points. Those same classes were just thrown into a large open world mass combat environment with little to no thought.

[Caliburn.1845]

The problem with a two server paradigm is that the outcome becomes very binary. One server wins, one server loses. If matches were a day, or two days that might be fine. But for week long matches the losing server would just stay out of WvW after the outcome is determined a day or two into the match-up.

 

When you have three servers, the losing server(or servers) can always go after each other, or sneak around the back while the other two servers are tied up fighting.

 

Think of it like this, your server wakes up the second day of the match to find the enemy server has WPed all your keeps. You own nothing. There is no third server to distract the enemy. There is no third force to push the other side of the map. It is your server trying to push a T3, sieged up, dug in enemy server. Whether you are on the winning or losing server in that battle, it is still not exactly even and fun. There is no third server to break up the static nature of the fight.

 

Likewise four servers won't work, because they would invariably pair up against each other. Five servers and above you get into some potentially interesting dynamics, ie prisoner's dilemma style issues, but that would be such a radical redesign of WvW that I don't think it is really a serious option.

[Torolan.5816]

Anet has only a limited interst in PvE guilds, why do you think they could have an interest in wvw guilds? Anet made it pretty clear pretty soon that they do not really support GvG, and even when they gave guilds their own playgrounds in GHs and the refugium, nobody cared and many people complained for various reasons.

 

Wvw has become more convenient over time. How many of you were pouring Gold into the uprades of towers for basically no return, or fashioned your own siege weapons while commanding? I did. It has received some merasures over time, just not the right ones as it seems.

 

I am not saying that wvw does not need to be made great again though. But I am pretty sure that it is very low on the list of Anet.

[Sovereign.1093]

chess is the only balanced online game. =) sorry folks.

 

 

[Torolan.5816]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> chess is the only balanced online game. =) sorry folks.

>

>

 

There is a number of chess players that say that white is OP because it has the first turn. So much for balance. :)

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Torolan.5816" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > chess is the only balanced online game. =) sorry folks.

> >

> >

>

> There is a number of chess players that say that white is OP because it has the first turn. So much for balance. :)

 

if black draw, black wins. =) thus, it is balanced.

 

besides a perfectly balanced game is like tic tac toe. limited because of the rules =3

[Seffen.2875]

No Guts, no Glory.

 

Arenanet right now makes you feel like they are terribly afraid of fucking up the mode more than ever before.

 

To be fair: For my part i think, they made a lot of things that could have turned out really really well.

 

COULD

*

but somehow they tend to stop after the first try and leave things as they are.

 

DBL is a very good example. The map on itself is really nice. Nice Feeling, nice Looks a. s. o. It is just by far too big. What could they have done about that?

Adding ports to turrets, making the map smaller, adding more ports to the Castles. (not the middle one though).

 

What did they do? removing the Event in the middle (which was after all quite funny. Just way too often) and remove some edges.

 

Another example: Adding unlimited stacks of conditions. They could have fixed that within the first year.

 

COULD

 

but hey instead they just like... tried a bit here. tried a bit there. nothing worked. NOW finally they made a big Change. Seems fine. Maybe some more tweaks but who really cares at this Point.

 

An example of what really went well: Ogrewatch. They just moved it and fin. Except for some weard decisions about the mountains surounding it ist almost completely fine.

 

And the worst Thing about this is:

They almost never talk to us about anything (gotten better lastly). Just some small things here and there just before some big changes but nothing important. By now the community is so angry about them that everytime they post anything there is an autoincluded rant.

Again a matter of guts.

IF they just kept us informed and stayed through some rant most People would cool down.

[atheria.2837]

> @"Caliburn.1845" said:

> The problem with a two server paradigm is that the outcome becomes very binary. One server wins, one server loses. If matches were a day, or two days that might be fine. But for week long matches the losing server would just stay out of WvW after the outcome is determined a day or two into the match-up.

>

> When you have three servers, the losing server(or servers) can always go after each other, or sneak around the back while the other two servers are tied up fighting.

>

> Think of it like this, your server wakes up the second day of the match to find the enemy server has WPed all your keeps. You own nothing. There is no third server to distract the enemy. There is no third force to push the other side of the map. It is your server trying to push a T3, sieged up, dug in enemy server. Whether you are on the winning or losing server in that battle, it is still not exactly even and fun. There is no third server to break up the static nature of the fight.

>

> Likewise four servers won't work, because they would invariably pair up against each other. Five servers and above you get into some potentially interesting dynamics, ie prisoner's dilemma style issues, but that would be such a radical redesign of WvW that I don't think it is really a serious option.

 

What we have now is much worse than any 1v1 server match could ever be.

[RodOfDeath.5247]

> @"Grim West.3194" said:

> Most major guilds left this game 6 months after launch.

>

> The people left tried to make WvW work, but ANET always gets in the way.

 

But you're still here. Why not apply what you learned and keep the dream alive :)