Elusive Mind

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"Xstein.2187" said:

> > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > **"Using a healing skill breaks stun, dodging removes 1 condition and heals you for 133 (0.07) health"**

> >

> > Trait is still worth taking since it provides sustain. No longer a massive get out of jail free for stuns.

> >

> >

> This would pretty much put stun break on a 10 sec cool down, but only by making mantra of recovery mandetory, ultimately cutting down on build diversity.

 

Forgot to mention it would only count the initial chant.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

All they need to do is add 4 secs of Exhaustion if used while CC’ed. Boom it’s fixed without gutting the trait.

[Cynz.9437]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> All they need to do is add 4 secs of Exhaustion if used while CC’ed. Boom it’s fixed without gutting the trait.

 

Oh you ;) Still would be better than UC. By miles.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Cynz.9437" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > All they need to do is add 4 secs of Exhaustion if used while CC’ed. Boom it’s fixed without gutting the trait.

>

> Oh you ;) Still would be better than UC. By miles.

 

It would cut down on the double standards that Anet handsout almost every “balance” patch.

[Carighan.6758]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> All they need to do is add 4 secs of Exhaustion if used while CC’ed. Boom it’s fixed without gutting the trait.

 

Actually that'd be gutting a trait which is already rubbish in the major part of the game. It's not a bad "quick fix", however. A good fix would be to **substantially** reduce CC **and** anti-CC all around. CC should be extremely powerful when used, but also have virtually no counter, nor would it be necessary becasue of how rare it is.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > All they need to do is add 4 secs of Exhaustion if used while CC’ed. Boom it’s fixed without gutting the trait.

>

> Actually that'd be gutting a trait which is already rubbish in the major part of the game. It's not a bad "quick fix", however. A good fix would be to **substantially** reduce CC **and** anti-CC all around. CC should be extremely powerful when used, but also have virtually no counter, nor would it be necessary becasue of how rare it is.

 

We both know that the likely hood of Anet doing a major overhaul of CC/Anti Cc is next to none. Just look at the quality of interplayer Combat “Balance” patches and the current state of the game and history of the majority of the “balance” patches.

 

This suggestion is more in line with what Anet is capable of handling and implementing, and be inline with a similar change they implemented. Again got to get away from double standards in balancing between similar skills/traits, a similar trait was “balanced” by making a completely new mechanic (exhaustion) so then it follows that EM should be held to the same standard.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> It needs to be changed. If you can't see that then I'm not at all sorry to say that you won't be contributing anything of value to this discussion. How to change it though? I figure that if we come up with something that is balanced, we can avoid getting the UC treatment to EM.

>

> The idea I saw put forth the most was to move the condi cleanse to another trait (most of the time I saw people asking to move it to renewing oasis or mirage mantle). But I'm not satisfied with that, as I see the stunbreak spam as the reason EM is ridiculously overpowered, not the condi cleanse. Some ideas that I had for it:

>

> * Using a shatter skill breaks stun - Not my favorite idea, it can still be spammed in the short term, but overall its significantly less stunbreak spam than the current version. However, both IH and Dune Cloak buff affect mirage cloak mechanic, and by extension, a trait that buffs our dodge more or less buffs the same thing. So a Pro for this idea is that it would allow us to choose to buff our dodge (IH and dune cloak would still buff dodge), or buff core mesmer mechanic of shattering.

> * Remove the stunbreak completely and redesign EM from the ground up - Pro, removes the stunbreak spam. Neutral, core mesmer already has a lot of stunbreaks, and mirage brought another stunbreak skill. Con, I really enjoy having a stunbreak on a trait, and this would leave us without one.

 

Admittedly, I haven't really done any PvP on mirage. However, it strikes me that stun breaks are far less important to mirage than any other class. Obviously, being able to dodge and teleport while stunned have a lot to do with that. Is this really the big factor that's going to "fix" Mirage in PvP? I'm just not sure about that.

[bart.3687]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> All they need to do is add 4 secs of Exhaustion if used while CC’ed. Boom it’s fixed without gutting the trait.

 

I disagree. Daredevil has other means of getting endurance besides its regeneration over time, meaning DD still has possibility to gain endurance and dodge while being exhausted. Mirage doesn't.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending EM (I'm not sure if it's that OP but I think it's unnecessary since mirage has the advantage of dodging while being cc'ed anyway, why buff it even further?). I just think it's not a right way to fix it. It would be way better to just replace the trait with something else, something that isn't stun break on dodge.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"bart.3687" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > All they need to do is add 4 secs of Exhaustion if used while CC’ed. Boom it’s fixed without gutting the trait.

>

> I disagree. Daredevil has other means of getting endurance besides its regeneration over time, meaning DD still has possibility to gain endurance and dodge while being exhausted. Mirage doesn't.

>

> Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending EM (I'm not sure if it's that OP but I think it's unnecessary since mirage has the advantage of dodging while being cc'ed anyway, why buff it even further?). I just think it's not a right way to fix it. It would be way better to just replace the trait with something else, something that isn't stun break on dodge.

 

Sorry but a Stun Break on a 5 to 10 Sec “CD” should not exist hell people complained about a 15 sec CD(now 20 Sec) Stunbreak for years and a 8 sec(now 12) so why should their be a 5 to 10 second Stunbreak in game? and yes there are other ways to generate endurance outside of vigor and passive regeneration, Rune of the Adventurer (used on almost every Meta Build) and Sigil Of Energy(used on quite a few), and it’s not like Mirages are lacking in other active defenses.

 

Stunbreak is more powerful than soft cc clear, and the traits function similarly so they should have the same drawback ie Exhaustion. Otherwise you have what is the issue today of not being able to cc or pin down mesmers, you know the argument that was used against UC.

 

So they should stop the double standards on “balance”.

[Ario.8964]

Another possibility, maybe not a super good one, is give it the Unhindered Combatant treatment. If you break a stun through this trait you cannot gain any endurance for 3 seconds (reduced duration as they have fewer base dodges so 4 seconds may be a bit much) . Then it's still got the utility but it comes at a cost so you are still better off just dodging the skills to begin with.

 

Or you could change it so if you dodge to break a stun the mirror you get from that dodge has it's duration halved and you cannot use an ambush skill during that time.

[Me Games Ma.8426]

Without adding to the discussion if a rework is needed or not here are a few examples of what I would love as a possible redesign:

 

1. Reworked entirely into "blink a short distance (in the direction you would dodge) when you dodge". While this could be extremely weird to play with at first I think if you got used to it the extra mobility would be worthy of a grandmaster trait.

2. When you get CCed you stunbreak and gain mirage cloak. ICD 60-90s. - I don't believe this is enough for a grandmaster trait so additional effects could be required (but I don't think that auto stunbreaks should be on a lower cooldown)

3. When you break stun and you gain mirage cloak

 

While option 2 is my least favorite I believe it's the most realistic option.

[Carighan.6758]

I think my personal beef with wanting to "redesign EM from the ground up" is this:

 

* I'm always all in favor of "scrap and redesign", because frankly as much as I love this game I am hard-pressed to think of **any** element of **any** class I wouldn't want to see redesigned, and a good 25%+ I'd love to see done from scratch. And that's without talking about underlying combat elements or overall balance.

* Importantly, I feel the entire Mirage-line needs to be scrapped. At least the traits + the utility skills, but potentially all of it.

* And, even just looking at traits in general, I don't think the 1+1+1/1+1+1/1+1+1 is sensible design. That is to say, many traitlines offer one option for X on each tier, and one for Y, and one for Z. So if I want to, I can go X (say, defensive!) on all tiers. This has issues with power-variability. I'd rather see three choices for X on adept, three choices for Y on master, and three choices for Z on grandmaster, all **substantially** different so that simple numerical balance cannot tilt the whole setup.

 

Example of the last point:

Say Mirage GM is redesigned to be all about Ambush skills. It will now offer you three choices:

 

* When you gain Mirage Cloak, your Clones will also do so, and execute Ambush skills.

* You will automatically use your other weapon set's Ambush skill whenever you execute an Ambush skill, assuming you don't use another skill in-between. This will not swap your equipped weapon!

* When you avoid an attack due to Distortion or Reflection, an extra clone appears to execute an Ambush skill at the attacker. This clone does not count towards your maximum and cannot be used for shatter attacks but it is counted towards your number of illusions for traits and equipment.

 

The point is, all three of these give you "more ambush". But in very different ways. Of course all numbers and specifics are randomly used to not spend hours on this, it's just to illustrate the idea. Offer 3 very different ways to achieve the same thing.

[Refia Montes.3205]

On another class, I definitely think EM is a really good trait. On Mirage though? Unnecessary. I think the utility and damage provided with IH outweighs EM's usefulness on Mirage, as a Mirage even without EM can dodge while being CCed, reposition themselves with Jaunt, Distort through mistakes etc. Mirage Cloak alone is enough stunbreak is overkill for defense. Additionally if you use EM to Stunbreak, wouldn't it be better if you dodged the cc skill instead of eating damage?

[Refia Montes.3205]

I don't really think EM is Mirage's problem, I believe the problem lies with being able to stack tons of confusion along with other strong cover conditions. As any normal person that ate up a Mirage condu burst, they would try to use as much condi cleanses to survive, and it ends up in a gamble. As they cast every condi cleanse they eat up Confusion procs every time they fail to cleanse confusion. I think the best way to solve this is to make cleanses prioritize the largest stack of condis or outright nerf Mirage's Confusion stacking. Reduce Jaunt to 1 stack but lasts 3 times longer and other similar skills.(allows it to still do the same dps in PvE)

[PierPiero.9142]

they will introduce an internal cd on EM as it was done with elusive arcana of ele ....

[Carighan.6758]

> @"PierPiero.9142" said:

> they will introduce an internal cd on EM as it was done with elusive arcana of ele ....

 

Damn, that is a clever solution. We could even go as far as shackling it to a dynamic CD where you can still use it multiple times in a row but expended a resource which then has to slowly regenerate.

 

Furthermore, they could add a GUI element which allows you to easily see how much of that resource you have remaining. Say, a little yellow bar right above the hotbar!

 

If only we had something like that...

[PierPiero.9142]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"PierPiero.9142" said:

> > they will introduce an internal cd on EM as it was done with elusive arcana of ele ....

>

> kitten, that is a clever solution. We could even go as far as shackling it to a dynamic CD where you can still use it multiple times in a row but expended a resource which then has to slowly regenerate.

>

> Furthermore, they could add a GUI element which allows you to easily see how much of that resource you have remaining. Say, a little yellow bar right above the hotbar!

>

> If only we had something like that...

 

In theory dodging is already "timed" based on vigor and so on ....

[Curunen.8729]

> @"PierPiero.9142" said:

> > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > @"PierPiero.9142" said:

> > > they will introduce an internal cd on EM as it was done with elusive arcana of ele ....

> >

> > kitten, that is a clever solution. We could even go as far as shackling it to a dynamic CD where you can still use it multiple times in a row but expended a resource which then has to slowly regenerate.

> >

> > Furthermore, they could add a GUI element which allows you to easily see how much of that resource you have remaining. Say, a little yellow bar right above the hotbar!

> >

> > If only we had something like that...

>

> In theory dodging is already "timed" based on vigor and so on ....

 

That's what he's saying. ;) It already has a "dynamic" ICD. It just happens to be a very short ICD.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> I don't really think EM is Mirage's problem, I believe the problem lies with being able to stack tons of confusion along with other strong cover conditions. As any normal person that ate up a Mirage condu burst, they would try to use as much condi cleanses to survive, and it ends up in a gamble. As they cast every condi cleanse they eat up Confusion procs every time they fail to cleanse confusion. I think the best way to solve this is to make cleanses prioritize the largest stack of condis or outright nerf Mirage's Confusion stacking. Reduce Jaunt to 1 stack but lasts 3 times longer and other similar skills.(allows it to still do the same dps in PvE)

Same for all classes and not even limited to conditions, the ability to stack too much too fast apply to boons too. And then add stacking base stats on top of that.

 

I mean, why is 25 might stacks a thing for a single player? Maxing it out should be something that a 5 man group *struggle* to maintain in an organized fight against static NPC bosses.

 

Anet just throws everything out like candy, from condition stacks to boon stacks and a thousand extra points over pvp amulets.

 

This is the general issue.

 

Mesmer just happens to be very good at killing noobs by exploiting all of it.

[PierPiero.9142]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > I don't really think EM is Mirage's problem, I believe the problem lies with being able to stack tons of confusion along with other strong cover conditions. As any normal person that ate up a Mirage condu burst, they would try to use as much condi cleanses to survive, and it ends up in a gamble. As they cast every condi cleanse they eat up Confusion procs every time they fail to cleanse confusion. I think the best way to solve this is to make cleanses prioritize the largest stack of condis or outright nerf Mirage's Confusion stacking. Reduce Jaunt to 1 stack but lasts 3 times longer and other similar skills.(allows it to still do the same dps in PvE)

> Same for all classes and not even limited to conditions, the ability to stack too much too fast apply to boons too. And then add stacking base stats on top of that.

>

> I mean, why is 25 might stacks a thing for a single player? Maxing it out should be something that a 5 man group *struggle* to maintain in an organized fight against static NPC bosses.

>

> Anet just throws everything out like candy, from condition stacks to boon stacks and a thousand extra points over pvp amulets.

>

> This is the general issue.

>

> Mesmer just happens to be very good at killing noobs by exploiting all of it.

It depends. Pure condi mesmer is good against noobs ( for example playing scepter) . What make mesmer grate in spvp are 2 different things :

- ability to avoid damage ( and EM has a great impact on them)

- hybrid damage : "condi mesmer" in spvp has 2k power and when you use f1 or sword 2 for example , you feel all the damage made by power, not condi.

People complain on condition stack but mesmer in meta makes also a decent direct damage and you have to consider both. The same thing was with chronomancer.

If you go 1 vs1 against a good tempest for example , with a full condition setup it is hard to take it down for the great condition cleaning tempest has. If you go with meta it is much easier to take him down becouse other than clean conditions you have also to avoid direct damage....

 

 

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"PierPiero.9142" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > I don't really think EM is Mirage's problem, I believe the problem lies with being able to stack tons of confusion along with other strong cover conditions. As any normal person that ate up a Mirage condu burst, they would try to use as much condi cleanses to survive, and it ends up in a gamble. As they cast every condi cleanse they eat up Confusion procs every time they fail to cleanse confusion. I think the best way to solve this is to make cleanses prioritize the largest stack of condis or outright nerf Mirage's Confusion stacking. Reduce Jaunt to 1 stack but lasts 3 times longer and other similar skills.(allows it to still do the same dps in PvE)

> > Same for all classes and not even limited to conditions, the ability to stack too much too fast apply to boons too. And then add stacking base stats on top of that.

> >

> > I mean, why is 25 might stacks a thing for a single player? Maxing it out should be something that a 5 man group *struggle* to maintain in an organized fight against static NPC bosses.

> >

> > Anet just throws everything out like candy, from condition stacks to boon stacks and a thousand extra points over pvp amulets.

> >

> > This is the general issue.

> >

> > Mesmer just happens to be very good at killing noobs by exploiting all of it.

> It depends. Pure condi mesmer is good against noobs ( for example playing scepter) . What make mesmer grate in spvp are 2 different things :

> - ability to avoid damage ( and EM has a great impact on them)

> - hybrid damage : "condi mesmer" in spvp has 2k power and when you use f1 or sword 2 for example , you feel all the damage made by power, not condi.

> People complain on condition stack but mesmer in meta makes also a decent direct damage and you have to consider both. The same thing was with chronomancer.

> If you go 1 vs1 against a good tempest for example , with a full condition setup it is hard to take it down for the great condition cleaning tempest has. If you go with meta it is much easier to take him down becouse other than clean conditions you have also to avoid direct damage....

>

>

Not quite sure how it depends since thats exactly what I said. Your decent power+condi hybrid build in sPvP can have the same power and condi damage in WvW plus 2000 toughness. Against people doing the same (ie bruiser builds) its "balanced" but many go with just more damage instead and then rage when they instantly die to a much tougher opponent that still cut through their armor like butter.

 

This apply to *any* class.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"PierPiero.9142" said:

> > they will introduce an internal cd on EM as it was done with elusive arcana of ele ....

>

> kitten, that is a clever solution. We could even go as far as shackling it to a dynamic CD where you can still use it multiple times in a row but expended a resource which then has to slowly regenerate.

>

> Furthermore, they could add a GUI element which allows you to easily see how much of that resource you have remaining. Say, a little yellow bar right above the hotbar!

>

> If only we had something like that...

 

It really isn't, though, because EM is simply not that great due to the way mirage works. For me, the biggest advantage is the condi cleanse because mirage has almost none! The stun break would be completely OP on any other class, but go ahead! Stun a mirage. It barely matters because they can still dodge, still teleport, target break, spawn clones, and stealth!

 

Placing an ICD on this trait will make it weaker, but I seriously doubt it's going to solve your problems with mirage in PvP. Further, it's going to leave a trait that isn't worth taking in the GM tier. I prefer the suggestions to remove it and replace with a complete redesign.

[Zintrothen.1056]

EM isn't that OP, not because of the excessive CCs, but because Mirages can still dodge while CCed. All the stunbreak gives is the ability to run away and reset the fight again. Also, let's remember that Mirages run Signet of Midnight and Blink, which are also stunbreaks. But EM should still be nerfed, along with CC quantities being reduced. Nobody should be able to stunbreak that often on top of two utility stunbreaks. Mesmer is already a slippery profession with plenty of stealth and defences. They really will do just fine with fewer stunbreaks.

[PierPiero.9142]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"PierPiero.9142" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > I don't really think EM is Mirage's problem, I believe the problem lies with being able to stack tons of confusion along with other strong cover conditions. As any normal person that ate up a Mirage condu burst, they would try to use as much condi cleanses to survive, and it ends up in a gamble. As they cast every condi cleanse they eat up Confusion procs every time they fail to cleanse confusion. I think the best way to solve this is to make cleanses prioritize the largest stack of condis or outright nerf Mirage's Confusion stacking. Reduce Jaunt to 1 stack but lasts 3 times longer and other similar skills.(allows it to still do the same dps in PvE)

> > > Same for all classes and not even limited to conditions, the ability to stack too much too fast apply to boons too. And then add stacking base stats on top of that.

> > >

> > > I mean, why is 25 might stacks a thing for a single player? Maxing it out should be something that a 5 man group *struggle* to maintain in an organized fight against static NPC bosses.

> > >

> > > Anet just throws everything out like candy, from condition stacks to boon stacks and a thousand extra points over pvp amulets.

> > >

> > > This is the general issue.

> > >

> > > Mesmer just happens to be very good at killing noobs by exploiting all of it.

> > It depends. Pure condi mesmer is good against noobs ( for example playing scepter) . What make mesmer grate in spvp are 2 different things :

> > - ability to avoid damage ( and EM has a great impact on them)

> > - hybrid damage : "condi mesmer" in spvp has 2k power and when you use f1 or sword 2 for example , you feel all the damage made by power, not condi.

> > People complain on condition stack but mesmer in meta makes also a decent direct damage and you have to consider both. The same thing was with chronomancer.

> > If you go 1 vs1 against a good tempest for example , with a full condition setup it is hard to take it down for the great condition cleaning tempest has. If you go with meta it is much easier to take him down becouse other than clean conditions you have also to avoid direct damage....

> >

> >

> Not quite sure how it depends since thats exactly what I said. Your decent power+condi hybrid build in sPvP can have the same power and condi damage in WvW plus 2000 toughness. Against people doing the same (ie bruiser builds) its "balanced" but many go with just more damage instead and then rage when they instantly die to a much tougher opponent that still cut through their armor like butter.

>

> This apply to *any* class.

 

yes i was only saying that the strength of mesmer is not the condition damage itself but the couple of both . I see it in wvw. I played for a while full dire with scepter and 0 power ... a super tanky and high vitality build .... but there were some classes unkillable only with condi damage. Then i moved to a mix of dire ( armour ) and carrion for having a setup more similar to spvp and in 1 vs 1 it is really really strong becouse if you can not kill someone with conditions ... you can kill him with direct damage.... I agree that mesmer is really strong now but in wvw many other classes are broken... ( scourge, warriors, some guardian immortals with damage .... ) .

In my opinion class balance in wvw is something completely different and i find wvw per se completely broken. With food and stats you can have classes that have everything.... vitlaity, toughenss hp, damage... instead in spvp you are forced to do a choice so i consider wvw not usable to make an analys becose it is broken by itself .

And all complain on mirage... but also chronomancer is really really strong yet ...

[Cynz.9437]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > I don't really think EM is Mirage's problem, I believe the problem lies with being able to stack tons of confusion along with other strong cover conditions. As any normal person that ate up a Mirage condu burst, they would try to use as much condi cleanses to survive, and it ends up in a gamble. As they cast every condi cleanse they eat up Confusion procs every time they fail to cleanse confusion. I think the best way to solve this is to make cleanses prioritize the largest stack of condis or outright nerf Mirage's Confusion stacking. Reduce Jaunt to 1 stack but lasts 3 times longer and other similar skills.(allows it to still do the same dps in PvE)

> Same for all classes and not even limited to conditions, the ability to stack too much too fast apply to boons too. And then add stacking base stats on top of that.

>

> I mean, why is 25 might stacks a thing for a single player? Maxing it out should be something that a 5 man group *struggle* to maintain in an organized fight against static NPC bosses.

>

> Anet just throws everything out like candy, from condition stacks to boon stacks and a thousand extra points over pvp amulets.

>

> This is the general issue.

>

> **Mesmer just happens to be very good at killing noobs by exploiting all of it.**

 

Wrong. The only way to win vs mes atm on any prof is to hope that he will make quite few heavy mistakes. Good mes shouldn't lose to anything atm (despite how good enemy is).